Re: [bolger] Re: Rot Solution
After reading Kenneth's email I started agreeing with him and decided to ask Dave C. The website below gives the hazardous substance type details. Dave's response follows:
Jim
>Polyethylene glycol is useless in killing rot or preserving wood in any way. While it is inhumane, its only viable use appearsto be as >a prep for colonoscopies. I cannot hack that and have used the Phospho-Soda® alternative. Etylene glycol antifreeze (not the >nontoxic propylene glycol) is what you need. This is laid out in Chemotherapy for Rot on my web site:<http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/rot.html>
>Ignore the borates part and use undiluted ethylene glycol antifreeze.I stand corrected.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth Grome
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Rot Solution
I think I remember what Dave Carnell wrote online ...
It was basically that he tested a mixture of ethylene glycol and various concentrations of borates, and in all but one concentration the solution IMPROVED the ability of epoxy to adhere to the wood -- after the wood has dried out of course.
So don't add borates to the ethylene glycol and your epoxy will bond better to the wood, that was my conclusion.
I think he also said that propylene glycol does NOT provide the same rot/fungus/mold prevention as ethylene glycol. This makes sense when you consider the fact that ethylene glycol is poisonous to humans but propylene glycol is not.
Here's some more info about these two chemicals:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
>> I know of no studies regarding epoxy bond strength on glycol prepped
>> wood and would be hesitant to build this way without prior extensive
>> testing.
>
> I don't know of any either but I had a conversation about that with
> Dave Carnell several years ago. I hate to quote someone without
> asking them first but if memory serves he said there wasn't any
> problem using epoxy on PEGd wood. You could always email him -
> address in his ads in Boatbuilder and MAIB. I believe that he worked
> for Dupont prior to his retirement and he really knows alot about
> chemistry.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My mistake, I guess it's PG that's used to adulterate wine. A quick search
found that it appears to be used as a _vehicle_ for fungus remedies, not
the active ingredient. But it's Polyethylene Glycol (PEG) that's used to
stabilize old wood. It's also non-toxic, and a quick search of the 'net
shows that it's used in cosmetics and toiletries, and is even the basis of
several laxatives! At any rate, it's ethylene glycol that Dave Carnell
touts as a rot killer and preventitive.
found that it appears to be used as a _vehicle_ for fungus remedies, not
the active ingredient. But it's Polyethylene Glycol (PEG) that's used to
stabilize old wood. It's also non-toxic, and a quick search of the 'net
shows that it's used in cosmetics and toiletries, and is even the basis of
several laxatives! At any rate, it's ethylene glycol that Dave Carnell
touts as a rot killer and preventitive.
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:21:27 -0700, Doug wrote:
> Propylene glycol is nontoxic to mammals and still as effective on
> fungal infestation as EG. You can get it at any RV supply, branded as
> water line antifreeze.
>
> PG is a basic ingredient in foods (wine?) and cosmetics. It is also
> used outside the US as a topical antifungal treatment.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine. <H. W. Tilman>
I think I remember what Dave Carnell wrote online ...
It was basically that he tested a mixture of ethylene glycol and various concentrations of borates, and in all but one concentration the solution IMPROVED the ability of epoxy to adhere to the wood -- after the wood has dried out of course.
So don't add borates to the ethylene glycol and your epoxy will bond better to the wood, that was my conclusion.
I think he also said that propylene glycol does NOT provide the same rot/fungus/mold prevention as ethylene glycol. This makes sense when you consider the fact that ethylene glycol is poisonous to humans but propylene glycol is not.
Here's some more info about these two chemicals:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
It was basically that he tested a mixture of ethylene glycol and various concentrations of borates, and in all but one concentration the solution IMPROVED the ability of epoxy to adhere to the wood -- after the wood has dried out of course.
So don't add borates to the ethylene glycol and your epoxy will bond better to the wood, that was my conclusion.
I think he also said that propylene glycol does NOT provide the same rot/fungus/mold prevention as ethylene glycol. This makes sense when you consider the fact that ethylene glycol is poisonous to humans but propylene glycol is not.
Here's some more info about these two chemicals:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
>> I know of no studies regarding epoxy bond strength on glycol prepped
>> wood and would be hesitant to build this way without prior extensive
>> testing.
>
> I don't know of any either but I had a conversation about that with
> Dave Carnell several years ago. I hate to quote someone without
> asking them first but if memory serves he said there wasn't any
> problem using epoxy on PEGd wood. You could always email him -
> address in his ads in Boatbuilder and MAIB. I believe that he worked
> for Dupont prior to his retirement and he really knows alot about
> chemistry.
>I know of no studies regarding epoxy bond strength on glycol preppedI don't know of any either but I had a conversation about that with Dave Carnell several years ago. I hate to quote someone without asking them first but if memory serves he said there wasn't any problem using epoxy on PEGd wood. You could always email him - address in his ads in Boatbuilder and MAIB. I believe that he worked for Dupont prior to his retirement and he really knows alot about chemistry.
>wood and would be hesitant to build this way without prior extensive
>testing.
Our conversation on the subject was because I'd been dosing the bilge of my Simmons Sea Skiff with green Cuprinol for around 12 or so years and was thinking about giving it a couple of treatements with anti-freeze before giving it several coats of either "penetrating" epoxy or watered (acetoned?) down epoxy.
Jim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Propylene glycol is nontoxic to mammals and still as effective on
fungal infestation as EG. You can get it at any RV supply, branded as
water line antifreeze.
PG is a basic ingredient in foods (wine?) and cosmetics. It is also
used outside the US as a topical antifungal treatment.
I know of no studies regarding epoxy bond strength on glycol prepped
wood and would be hesitant to build this way without prior extensive
testing.
Doug
fungal infestation as EG. You can get it at any RV supply, branded as
water line antifreeze.
PG is a basic ingredient in foods (wine?) and cosmetics. It is also
used outside the US as a topical antifungal treatment.
I know of no studies regarding epoxy bond strength on glycol prepped
wood and would be hesitant to build this way without prior extensive
testing.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> What the scientists use is polyethylene glycol (PEG), not ethylene
glycol
> antifreeze. Big difference. For one thing, I think PEG is relatively
> non-poisonous (isn't that what unscrupulous winemakers use to sweeten
> wine?) and wouldn't be any good for killing rot. Ethylene glycol is
quite
> poisonous to most things, be very careful using it around pets and
> children. I mostly believe Dave Carnell's spiel about the rot killing
> properties of ethtylene glycol. I've got a test piece, soaked in
> antifreeze, painted and then set out on the ground right next to an
> untreated piece several years ago. I guess I should go look at them
one of
> these days...
>
> On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:31:12 -0700, JJ Johnson wrote:
>
> > for those of you who have or think you have or just do not want to
> > have rot, this is for you.
> > Get you a good supply of anti-freeze (etholyene glycol) and saturate
> > your wood with it.
> > ...
> > When scientists recover old boats that have been down for centuries
> > the first thing they do is saturate the wood in anti-freeze. If they
> > didn't the wood would dry out and fall apart. I figure if it is good
> > enough for them, it is even better for us that don't have to rebuild
> > boats that are so old.
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
> I care not for a man's religion whose dog or cat are not the better
for
> it. <Abraham Lincoln>
>
What the scientists use is polyethylene glycol (PEG), not ethylene glycol
antifreeze. Big difference. For one thing, I think PEG is relatively
non-poisonous (isn't that what unscrupulous winemakers use to sweeten
wine?) and wouldn't be any good for killing rot. Ethylene glycol is quite
poisonous to most things, be very careful using it around pets and
children. I mostly believe Dave Carnell's spiel about the rot killing
properties of ethtylene glycol. I've got a test piece, soaked in
antifreeze, painted and then set out on the ground right next to an
untreated piece several years ago. I guess I should go look at them one of
these days...
antifreeze. Big difference. For one thing, I think PEG is relatively
non-poisonous (isn't that what unscrupulous winemakers use to sweeten
wine?) and wouldn't be any good for killing rot. Ethylene glycol is quite
poisonous to most things, be very careful using it around pets and
children. I mostly believe Dave Carnell's spiel about the rot killing
properties of ethtylene glycol. I've got a test piece, soaked in
antifreeze, painted and then set out on the ground right next to an
untreated piece several years ago. I guess I should go look at them one of
these days...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:31:12 -0700, JJ Johnson wrote:
> for those of you who have or think you have or just do not want to
> have rot, this is for you.
> Get you a good supply of anti-freeze (etholyene glycol) and saturate
> your wood with it.
> ...
> When scientists recover old boats that have been down for centuries
> the first thing they do is saturate the wood in anti-freeze. If they
> didn't the wood would dry out and fall apart. I figure if it is good
> enough for them, it is even better for us that don't have to rebuild
> boats that are so old.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
I care not for a man's religion whose dog or cat are not the better for
it. <Abraham Lincoln>
for those of you who have or think you have or just do not want to
have rot, this is for you.
Get you a good supply of anti-freeze (etholyene glycol) and saturate
your wood with it. Then when you think you have enough in the wood,
put some more, and more, and more. It displaces the water int the
wood, kill the rot spores, and does not evaporate. Then you can make
any needed repairs at your leasure.
When scientists recover old boats that have been down for centuries
the first thing they do is saturate the wood in anti-freeze. If they
didn't the wood would dry out and fall apart. I figure if it is good
enough for them, it is even better for us that don't have to rebuild
boats that are so old.
cheers
JJ & Irene
have rot, this is for you.
Get you a good supply of anti-freeze (etholyene glycol) and saturate
your wood with it. Then when you think you have enough in the wood,
put some more, and more, and more. It displaces the water int the
wood, kill the rot spores, and does not evaporate. Then you can make
any needed repairs at your leasure.
When scientists recover old boats that have been down for centuries
the first thing they do is saturate the wood in anti-freeze. If they
didn't the wood would dry out and fall apart. I figure if it is good
enough for them, it is even better for us that don't have to rebuild
boats that are so old.
cheers
JJ & Irene