Re: [bolger] Any experience with Finland Birch Marine Plywood?
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000wmrpage@...wrote:
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> Was Howard Hughes' "Spruce Goose" mainly made out of birch plywood, orYou may not be surprised, when I tell you that it was made with spruce.
> has early onset "oldtimers' " disease taken its toll on me?
> I do remember some old (alleged) birch interior house trim from myIt also yellows in the sun, to a not terribly beautiful yellow/orange.
> days as a carpenter-trainee which was notable for being both very
> tough and very, very hard (a characteristic it definitely does not
> have when "green")
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
Given the wrong conditions, any wood can rot. Those spores are just a
fact of life on earth, and they love wood.
To thrive at our expense the fungi need heat, oxygen and moisture. In
any tree, heartwood is less prone than sapwood. Some geographic
locations are at higher risk than others. Design, construction
technique, preventative treatment, finish coats, ventilation and long
term care all play a part. And a good piece of bad wood is better than
the other way around.
All we do by selecting more rot resistant woods is hedge the bet, I
think.
But I cruised the library to see what might be learned. The following is
mostly from three substantial English references.
Here are the categories of durability in years, tested in contact with
the ground:
Perishable < 5
nondurable 5-10
moderately 10-15
durable 15-25
Very >25
Long ago, Richard Jagels in 'WoodenBoat' noted that in the ground tests
aren't necessarily applicable to boats. But I'm not aware there's yet
much available for comparison otherwise.
Now, some ratings for some good boat woods in an English environment:
Teak very
W. Ash very
Oak durable
Utile durable
Khaya moderately
Sapele moderately
Gaboon nondurable
Meranti moderate
Most Cedars durable+
true Firs (abies) nondurable
Douglas Fir (a pine) moderately
Sitka Spruce nondurable
Luan was off the scale at, "Sufficiently durable for interior purposes."
European Birch (Betula pubescens and B. verrucosa), including Finnish,
rated perishable.
These were 2x2s, and the durability is proportional to thickness. That
implies to me that those expensive sheets of African Mahogany ply the
gold platers use aren't providing much in the way of innate durability either.
Other quotes to note about Finnish Birch:
1. "Good bending properties if free from knots and irregular grain, but
these features are commonly present and detract from its suitability for
bending purposes."
2. With high permeability, it is a good candidate for pressurized
impregnation with water or organic solvent based preservatives. "When
pressure treated...suitable for posts where driving is not difficult."
3. When dry it's about, "As tough as Ash."
4. Prebore for nails at the edge.
5. Good gluing.
6. Weighs 41#/cubic ft., about the same as Yellow Pine (40.8). ( Teak =
42 ; Doug Fir = 34.8; Philippine = 36; White Oak = 50.4; White
Atlantic & Western Red Cedar = 22.8; Sitka = 28.8.
7. For someone who can decipher it for us, here is the strength data at
12% moisture content:
Bending Modulus of Elasticity Compression parallel to grain Impact
toughness (max hammer drop)
17,800 lbf/" sq. 1930 (1000 lbf/" sq.) 8690 lbf/" sq. 41"
"Comparable to Beech," it said.
8. Rot proneness implies best kiln-dried.
BTW the American/Canadian/English White Birch heartwood rates up to nondurable.
So it seems that Finnish Birch might be a better choice than Philippine
Mahogany (Luan), from which there have been many cheapie boats built.
For a serious project like Glen's Micro, doing without rot treatment
and/or fiberglassing seems unwise to me. Just slopping on one of the
various canned wood preservatives ought to give some protection. Anyone
know if there's an after market method of pressure treatment?
I wonder what they're asking at Macbeath.
fact of life on earth, and they love wood.
To thrive at our expense the fungi need heat, oxygen and moisture. In
any tree, heartwood is less prone than sapwood. Some geographic
locations are at higher risk than others. Design, construction
technique, preventative treatment, finish coats, ventilation and long
term care all play a part. And a good piece of bad wood is better than
the other way around.
All we do by selecting more rot resistant woods is hedge the bet, I
think.
But I cruised the library to see what might be learned. The following is
mostly from three substantial English references.
Here are the categories of durability in years, tested in contact with
the ground:
Perishable < 5
nondurable 5-10
moderately 10-15
durable 15-25
Very >25
Long ago, Richard Jagels in 'WoodenBoat' noted that in the ground tests
aren't necessarily applicable to boats. But I'm not aware there's yet
much available for comparison otherwise.
Now, some ratings for some good boat woods in an English environment:
Teak very
W. Ash very
Oak durable
Utile durable
Khaya moderately
Sapele moderately
Gaboon nondurable
Meranti moderate
Most Cedars durable+
true Firs (abies) nondurable
Douglas Fir (a pine) moderately
Sitka Spruce nondurable
Luan was off the scale at, "Sufficiently durable for interior purposes."
European Birch (Betula pubescens and B. verrucosa), including Finnish,
rated perishable.
These were 2x2s, and the durability is proportional to thickness. That
implies to me that those expensive sheets of African Mahogany ply the
gold platers use aren't providing much in the way of innate durability either.
Other quotes to note about Finnish Birch:
1. "Good bending properties if free from knots and irregular grain, but
these features are commonly present and detract from its suitability for
bending purposes."
2. With high permeability, it is a good candidate for pressurized
impregnation with water or organic solvent based preservatives. "When
pressure treated...suitable for posts where driving is not difficult."
3. When dry it's about, "As tough as Ash."
4. Prebore for nails at the edge.
5. Good gluing.
6. Weighs 41#/cubic ft., about the same as Yellow Pine (40.8). ( Teak =
42 ; Doug Fir = 34.8; Philippine = 36; White Oak = 50.4; White
Atlantic & Western Red Cedar = 22.8; Sitka = 28.8.
7. For someone who can decipher it for us, here is the strength data at
12% moisture content:
Bending Modulus of Elasticity Compression parallel to grain Impact
toughness (max hammer drop)
17,800 lbf/" sq. 1930 (1000 lbf/" sq.) 8690 lbf/" sq. 41"
"Comparable to Beech," it said.
8. Rot proneness implies best kiln-dried.
BTW the American/Canadian/English White Birch heartwood rates up to nondurable.
So it seems that Finnish Birch might be a better choice than Philippine
Mahogany (Luan), from which there have been many cheapie boats built.
For a serious project like Glen's Micro, doing without rot treatment
and/or fiberglassing seems unwise to me. Just slopping on one of the
various canned wood preservatives ought to give some protection. Anyone
know if there's an after market method of pressure treatment?
I wonder what they're asking at Macbeath.
In a message dated 6/5/00 4:49:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
welshman@...writes:
<< The birch is very light
weight and strong and the sprint sleds are mostly made out of it. >>
Was Howard Hughes' "Spruce Goose" mainly made out of birch plywood, or has
early onset "oldtimers' " disease taken its toll on me? This doesn't speak
to the material's rot resistance, obviously, but I would guess that the
variables in plywood manufacture and subsequent conditions are as least as
likely to affect rot performance as the species of starting material. I do
remember some old (alleged) birch interior house trim from my days as a
carpenter-trainee which was notable for being both very tough and very, very
hard (a characteristic it definitely does not have when "green")
Bill in MN.
welshman@...writes:
<< The birch is very light
weight and strong and the sprint sleds are mostly made out of it. >>
Was Howard Hughes' "Spruce Goose" mainly made out of birch plywood, or has
early onset "oldtimers' " disease taken its toll on me? This doesn't speak
to the material's rot resistance, obviously, but I would guess that the
variables in plywood manufacture and subsequent conditions are as least as
likely to affect rot performance as the species of starting material. I do
remember some old (alleged) birch interior house trim from my days as a
carpenter-trainee which was notable for being both very tough and very, very
hard (a characteristic it definitely does not have when "green")
Bill in MN.
I have seen birch marine plywood (friend built a 15 foot driftboat with it).
This stuff was HEAVY, but perfectly clear, zero voids - I have been
surprised at these posts saying it is light.
Don Hodges
This stuff was HEAVY, but perfectly clear, zero voids - I have been
surprised at these posts saying it is light.
Don Hodges
----- Original Message -----
From: <glen_gibson@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Any experience with Finland Birch Marine Plywood?
>
>
>
> Chris,
> Thanks for the thoughts, but this plywood is listed as "My local
exotic
> woods retailer has a reasonable price on "Finland Birch Marine Plywood,
100%
> birch throughout. Grade S/BB. I'll be using it in 3/8". This is not
the
> stuff from Home Depot, for example, which is birch, but is stated interior
use
> only.
>
> Do you have some reason to believe it's not really Marine grade?
>
> This is the location of the wood, only 15 minutes from my house:
>
>http://www.macbeath.com/plywood.html
>
> Thanks to everyone with feedback, as always.
>
> Glen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Crandall <crandall@...> on 06/05/2000 02:54:36 PM
>
> Please respond tobolger@egroups.com
>
> Sent by: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
>
>
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> cc: (Glen Gibson/HQ/3Com)
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Any experience with Finland Birch Marine Plywood?
>
>
>
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Harry W. James wrote:
> > If you are going to finish birch bright, do not stain it, Any stain
> > hides the grain. The plywood looks good in just plain varnish.
>
> Alas, it's true, or rather, true enough. My dining room table, my first
> major project in wood, is birch, stained cherry.
>
> Funny how we've ordered up a new table, in cherry, stained "natural".
>
> Ersatz is ersatz.
>
> Haven't seen in the threads above the one big drawback to this birch
> plywood. There's a lot of it around, it's inexpensive and very nice, and
> the glue is not waterproof. It just can't be used where it will get wet.
>
> Like in a boat.
>
> Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
> Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
> I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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> And pay less each month for long distance.
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I'll go with Chris on this one: Birch is more prone to rot than Doug Fir or
Cedar. If you live in a cold climate like Alaska, or are building a kayak
that lives indoors, go for it; otherwise, stay away.
Chuck
Cedar. If you live in a cold climate like Alaska, or are building a kayak
that lives indoors, go for it; otherwise, stay away.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: <glen_gibson@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Any experience with Finland Birch Marine Plywood?
>
>
>
> Chris,
> Thanks for the thoughts, but this plywood is listed as "My local
exotic
> woods retailer has a reasonable price on "Finland Birch Marine Plywood,
100%
> birch throughout. Grade S/BB. I'll be using it in 3/8". This is not
the
> stuff from Home Depot, for example, which is birch, but is stated interior
use
> only.
>
> Do you have some reason to believe it's not really Marine grade?
>
> This is the location of the wood, only 15 minutes from my house:
>
>http://www.macbeath.com/plywood.html
>
> Thanks to everyone with feedback, as always.
>
> Glen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Crandall <crandall@...> on 06/05/2000 02:54:36 PM
>
> Please respond tobolger@egroups.com
>
> Sent by: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
>
>
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> cc: (Glen Gibson/HQ/3Com)
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Any experience with Finland Birch Marine Plywood?
>
>
>
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Harry W. James wrote:
> > If you are going to finish birch bright, do not stain it, Any stain
> > hides the grain. The plywood looks good in just plain varnish.
>
> Alas, it's true, or rather, true enough. My dining room table, my first
> major project in wood, is birch, stained cherry.
>
> Funny how we've ordered up a new table, in cherry, stained "natural".
>
> Ersatz is ersatz.
>
> Haven't seen in the threads above the one big drawback to this birch
> plywood. There's a lot of it around, it's inexpensive and very nice, and
> the glue is not waterproof. It just can't be used where it will get wet.
>
> Like in a boat.
>
> Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
> Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
> I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:
>http://click.egroups.com/1/4054/10/_/3457/_/960242078/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eGroups members: $60 in FREE calls! Join beMANY!
> And pay less each month for long distance.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/4122/10/_/3457/_/960243051/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Chris,
Thanks for the thoughts, but this plywood is listed as "My local exotic
woods retailer has a reasonable price on "Finland Birch Marine Plywood, 100%
birch throughout. Grade S/BB. I'll be using it in 3/8". This is not the
stuff from Home Depot, for example, which is birch, but is stated interior use
only.
Do you have some reason to believe it's not really Marine grade?
This is the location of the wood, only 15 minutes from my house:
http://www.macbeath.com/plywood.html
Thanks to everyone with feedback, as always.
Glen
Chris Crandall <crandall@...> on 06/05/2000 02:54:36 PM
Please respond tobolger@egroups.com
Sent by: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
To:bolger@egroups.com
cc: (Glen Gibson/HQ/3Com)
Subject: Re: [bolger] Any experience with Finland Birch Marine Plywood?
Thanks for the thoughts, but this plywood is listed as "My local exotic
woods retailer has a reasonable price on "Finland Birch Marine Plywood, 100%
birch throughout. Grade S/BB. I'll be using it in 3/8". This is not the
stuff from Home Depot, for example, which is birch, but is stated interior use
only.
Do you have some reason to believe it's not really Marine grade?
This is the location of the wood, only 15 minutes from my house:
http://www.macbeath.com/plywood.html
Thanks to everyone with feedback, as always.
Glen
Chris Crandall <crandall@...> on 06/05/2000 02:54:36 PM
Please respond tobolger@egroups.com
Sent by: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
To:bolger@egroups.com
cc: (Glen Gibson/HQ/3Com)
Subject: Re: [bolger] Any experience with Finland Birch Marine Plywood?
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Harry W. James wrote:
> If you are going to finish birch bright, do not stain it, Any stain
> hides the grain. The plywood looks good in just plain varnish.
Alas, it's true, or rather, true enough. My dining room table, my first
major project in wood, is birch, stained cherry.
Funny how we've ordered up a new table, in cherry, stained "natural".
Ersatz is ersatz.
Haven't seen in the threads above the one big drawback to this birch
plywood. There's a lot of it around, it's inexpensive and very nice, and
the glue is not waterproof. It just can't be used where it will get wet.
Like in a boat.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:
http://click.egroups.com/1/4054/10/_/3457/_/960242078/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two bits more on birch.
During world war II and the lend lease program there were many hangars built
along the airplane road to Russia across the North. When I arrived in Nome in
1975 two of them were still standing at the airport. They were called the Birch
wood hangars, guess why. They were torn down in the late 80's in the name of
progress not because they were failing structurally. The one at Galena Air Force
base on the Yukon is still standing. These are dry climates and if the roof
doesn't leak there is very little to encourage rot. The roofs in Nome leaked and
it didn't seem to matter.
Traditional dog sleds are made out of hickory or birch. The birch is very light
weight and strong and the sprint sleds are mostly made out of it. I have
successfully destroyed both birch and hemlock sleds because of my lack of
athletic ability and some truly spectacular crashes.
If you are going to finish birch bright, do not stain it, Any stain hides the
grain. The plywood looks good in just plain varnish.
HJ
--
_ _ _ _ _
% Harrywelshman@...
During world war II and the lend lease program there were many hangars built
along the airplane road to Russia across the North. When I arrived in Nome in
1975 two of them were still standing at the airport. They were called the Birch
wood hangars, guess why. They were torn down in the late 80's in the name of
progress not because they were failing structurally. The one at Galena Air Force
base on the Yukon is still standing. These are dry climates and if the roof
doesn't leak there is very little to encourage rot. The roofs in Nome leaked and
it didn't seem to matter.
Traditional dog sleds are made out of hickory or birch. The birch is very light
weight and strong and the sprint sleds are mostly made out of it. I have
successfully destroyed both birch and hemlock sleds because of my lack of
athletic ability and some truly spectacular crashes.
If you are going to finish birch bright, do not stain it, Any stain hides the
grain. The plywood looks good in just plain varnish.
HJ
--
_ _ _ _ _
% Harrywelshman@...
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Harry W. James wrote:
major project in wood, is birch, stained cherry.
Funny how we've ordered up a new table, in cherry, stained "natural".
Ersatz is ersatz.
Haven't seen in the threads above the one big drawback to this birch
plywood. There's a lot of it around, it's inexpensive and very nice, and
the glue is not waterproof. It just can't be used where it will get wet.
Like in a boat.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> If you are going to finish birch bright, do not stain it, Any stainAlas, it's true, or rather, true enough. My dining room table, my first
> hides the grain. The plywood looks good in just plain varnish.
major project in wood, is birch, stained cherry.
Funny how we've ordered up a new table, in cherry, stained "natural".
Ersatz is ersatz.
Haven't seen in the threads above the one big drawback to this birch
plywood. There's a lot of it around, it's inexpensive and very nice, and
the glue is not waterproof. It just can't be used where it will get wet.
Like in a boat.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
I posted saying birch is not used for boatbuilding in Finland;
then Mark Albanese says:
it just says it is strong enough, which I don't doubt.
However, the wording "usual pine- or birch plywood" is surprising,
because plywood here is grouped into two categories, pine/fir
(low quality) and birch (high quality), with birch costing about
twice as much as pine/fir. So, birch plywood costs almost the same
as mahogany, whereas pine/fir plywood *is* much cheaper.
Sakari Aaltonen
then Mark Albanese says:
>Quoting from the above URL:
> A little more:
>
> Here's somebody who says they use Finnish Birch a lot for boats in
> Finland because it's much cheaper than Mahogany, but strong enough.
>
>http://www.planet.fi/tohtori/QFiles/QA_370.html
>Usual pine- or birch plywood is widely used among Finnish boatI don't think this says anything about the durability of birch;
>builders, because it is much
>cheaper than mahogany plywood, but still strong enough.
it just says it is strong enough, which I don't doubt.
However, the wording "usual pine- or birch plywood" is surprising,
because plywood here is grouped into two categories, pine/fir
(low quality) and birch (high quality), with birch costing about
twice as much as pine/fir. So, birch plywood costs almost the same
as mahogany, whereas pine/fir plywood *is* much cheaper.
Sakari Aaltonen
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
Mark
> It's generally accepted here (in Finland), that birch rots easily,Ah, just like seafaring, local knowledge is best.
> and it is not used for boatbuilding at all.
Mark
A little more:
Here's somebody who says they use Finnish Birch a lot for boats in
Finland because it's much cheaper than Mahogany, but strong enough.
http://www.planet.fi/tohtori/QFiles/QA_370.html
In the US, it seems to normally be only a little less costly than
Occume. It is grouped with hardwoods.
It occurs to me that since you're building the Micro w/ 3/8ths, your
weight might happliycome out to just about the same as plan.
I've done some googling to find the durability rating with no luck.
Anyone got a good book?
Here's somebody who says they use Finnish Birch a lot for boats in
Finland because it's much cheaper than Mahogany, but strong enough.
http://www.planet.fi/tohtori/QFiles/QA_370.html
In the US, it seems to normally be only a little less costly than
Occume. It is grouped with hardwoods.
It occurs to me that since you're building the Micro w/ 3/8ths, your
weight might happliycome out to just about the same as plan.
I've done some googling to find the durability rating with no luck.
Anyone got a good book?
Glen:
They use Finnish Birch plywood to make airplanes, not to mention all
those Birch bark canoes. So it ought to be all right in a boat. Lots of
high quality, crafted things are made of it from boomerangs to good
chairs.
I remember from somewhere that Birch is light and strong but not highly
durable. That's worth checking out. You may need to add in the cost of 3
coats of epoxy to keep the rot at bay. Maybe you were going to do that anyway.
Like Teak ply, could be that only thin surface veneers are Birch. I
think it will weigh less than fir.
I was looking at some they have at the local Home Depot now instead if
Luan. It was very pretty, but, alas, just interior glue. About 20 bucks
a sheet for 1/8th.
Normally, it's an expensive wood that takes a good finish, so if your
deal brings it down around the marine Firs, get all you need and then
let us know where.
Mark
They use Finnish Birch plywood to make airplanes, not to mention all
those Birch bark canoes. So it ought to be all right in a boat. Lots of
high quality, crafted things are made of it from boomerangs to good
chairs.
I remember from somewhere that Birch is light and strong but not highly
durable. That's worth checking out. You may need to add in the cost of 3
coats of epoxy to keep the rot at bay. Maybe you were going to do that anyway.
Like Teak ply, could be that only thin surface veneers are Birch. I
think it will weigh less than fir.
I was looking at some they have at the local Home Depot now instead if
Luan. It was very pretty, but, alas, just interior glue. About 20 bucks
a sheet for 1/8th.
Normally, it's an expensive wood that takes a good finish, so if your
deal brings it down around the marine Firs, get all you need and then
let us know where.
Mark