Re: [bolger] LS Margaret Ellen
>Really light weight cloth, 1 oz or even 1/2 oz. I have seen it advertised by
>
> What on earth is "angel hair cloth"?
Defender industries. I have the catalog at work and will report more tomorrow. It
is similar, I believe, to the cloth used by model builders.
The binder in mat is to hold all the loose pieces of glass together, with out it
you would just have a pile of feathers. I have read that cloth is washed or has a
coating that makes it compatible with epoxy, I always ask when I am dealing with
somebody I haven't bought cloth from before. I am not sure exactly what it is but
some cloth is more compatible than others. I usually buy epoxy and cloth from the
same buyer and make the assumption that the cloth is compatible.
HJ
HJ
_ _ _ _ _
% Harrywelshman@...
massive snippage
"Angel hair" is very light glass cloth, <1 oz. I've used this to coat
the inside and outside of my Nymph. Kind of a pain to handle, but
then
I put it on 20 minutes after putting some epoxy on the wood to soak
in, so everything was sticky. Hard to get the wrinkles out. I suspect
that it would soak up so little epoxy that you could put it on dry
and
then coat, with acceptable results. Probably you'd want to come back
and add some more after a few minutes of soaking into the wood. Model
airplane people use this stuff and the weight seems to be comparable
to a coat of paint or even one of those mylar coatings when done
carefully.
THere is some kind of light non-woven veil cloth which you can get
which is compatible with epoxy. I don't use it, but an acquaintance
who made boats semi professionally used to use it in his molded boat
parts, I think to keep the weave from showing through.
I think both of these materials are available from a big mail order
outfit in Rhode Island (NOT Jamestown Distributors, tho maybe they
have it?), whose name I'm forgetting right now.
I've used Raka epoxy, and it seems like fine stuff. Only drawback
seems to be it blushes, and I think they have a non blushing
version also.
"Angel hair" is very light glass cloth, <1 oz. I've used this to coat
the inside and outside of my Nymph. Kind of a pain to handle, but
then
I put it on 20 minutes after putting some epoxy on the wood to soak
in, so everything was sticky. Hard to get the wrinkles out. I suspect
that it would soak up so little epoxy that you could put it on dry
and
then coat, with acceptable results. Probably you'd want to come back
and add some more after a few minutes of soaking into the wood. Model
airplane people use this stuff and the weight seems to be comparable
to a coat of paint or even one of those mylar coatings when done
carefully.
THere is some kind of light non-woven veil cloth which you can get
which is compatible with epoxy. I don't use it, but an acquaintance
who made boats semi professionally used to use it in his molded boat
parts, I think to keep the weave from showing through.
I think both of these materials are available from a big mail order
outfit in Rhode Island (NOT Jamestown Distributors, tho maybe they
have it?), whose name I'm forgetting right now.
I've used Raka epoxy, and it seems like fine stuff. Only drawback
seems to be it blushes, and I think they have a non blushing
version also.
----- Original Message -----
From: "G Carlson" <ghartc@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] LS Margaret Ellen
> Point is, I've decided an epoxy film is worthless without glass (probably
> also greatly improves thickness.) Paint's probably better. The scooner
> outside (epoxy and 2 ounce woven) looks great, whereas the inside (epoxied
> w/o glass) is already checking after a year.
>
I've already got checking on my rudder and leeboard, several coats of primer
and paint.
There was a big discussion in rec.boats.building awhile ago about this
subject, the only way to prevent checking is to glass, or use a wood that
doesn't have a tendency to check.
The superply I used on Entropy has some yellow South American hardwood on
one side, which I put on the outside of the boat (and the inside floor). The
other plys are dough fir, which has a big tendency to check.
I'm using the "ignore" method to resolve that issue..., (though there isn't
any checking other than the boards yet)
I don't think checks will cause structural problems, I trailer sail, so they
aren't really a water/rot problem, homemade boats have virtually no resale
value, so it's not an equity problem, and if I cared that much about looks I
would have built a prettier boat. And would still be working on it instead
of sailing it...
> You're right though - lots of opinions.
>
> Gregg Carlson
>
>
>
> >In a message dated 6/5/00 11:20:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
> >ghartc@...writes:
> >
> ><< Epoxy
> > sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute
waste
> > of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
> > without holidays or checking.
> > >>
> >Greg: Do I correctly infer that your "Sneakeasy"'s topsides were
> >epoxy-coated, but not glassed? Are you talking about "checking" of the
> >plywood from enviromental exposure? What are "holidays"? If the object is
to
> >stabilize the surface, did you rule out using omni-directional
short-strand
> >"mat" or did you just have 4 oz. woven on hand? (I'm guessing that "mat"
is
> >lighter, cheaper and easier to "drape" than cloth.) Do you have a theory
as
> >to the cause of your problem? Between the variability of plywood and the
> >multiplicity of finishes used (different for every builder, it seems),
the
> >problem of finishes for plywood used in a marine enviroment certainly
seems
> >unsolved!
> >
> >Bill in MN
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Never lose a file again. Protect yourself from accidental deletes,
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>
>
>
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>http://click.egroups.com/1/4113/10/_/3457/_/960267905/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
In a message dated 6/5/00 10:55:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
welshman@...writes:
<< I want to try this out with angel hair
cloth some time. I t is in my to experiment on list. >>
What on earth is "angel hair cloth"?
If there are compatibility problems with "mat" and epoxy v. polyester (I'm
not doubting you), do the same compatibility problems arise with epoxy v.
polyester in woven cloth? I'm inclined to think that woven cloth is
stabilized with some kind of binder, albeit perhaps a lesser amount than
"mat".
My experience with glass cloth is limited to a single cedar-strip canoe I
built using polyester resin and a single layer of light woven fiberglass
cloth ( 6 oz.?) inside and out. The woven cloth was, as I interpreted it,
supposed to supply the bulk of the strength to the assembly, while the the
cedar acted as a one-off mold and acts as a compression/sheer core between
the two fiberglass skins. I'm sure that the finish is not "concours", but the
cloth is quite invisible. In any event, it makes a pretty satisfactory canoe.
My thinking about "mat" is that if the problem is controlling the behavior of
the surface of the plywood or the surface of the expoxy coating or both, that
the short, disoriented strands of "mat", while too short to enhance the
sturcture's strength, might be long enough to stabilize a surface. (i.e. the
strands of "chopped strand mat" would be relatively long on the molecular or
other micro-scale where the "checking" and "holidays" (?) take place.) I
don't have any experience using "CSM", but have seen recommendations for it
use as a binding or interface layer in GRP layups, so I'm inclined to think
that (assuming compatible fabric and matrix) that it should "wet-out" as well
as woven fabric. I would appreciate your thoughts on this subject.
Bill in MN
welshman@...writes:
<< I want to try this out with angel hair
cloth some time. I t is in my to experiment on list. >>
What on earth is "angel hair cloth"?
If there are compatibility problems with "mat" and epoxy v. polyester (I'm
not doubting you), do the same compatibility problems arise with epoxy v.
polyester in woven cloth? I'm inclined to think that woven cloth is
stabilized with some kind of binder, albeit perhaps a lesser amount than
"mat".
My experience with glass cloth is limited to a single cedar-strip canoe I
built using polyester resin and a single layer of light woven fiberglass
cloth ( 6 oz.?) inside and out. The woven cloth was, as I interpreted it,
supposed to supply the bulk of the strength to the assembly, while the the
cedar acted as a one-off mold and acts as a compression/sheer core between
the two fiberglass skins. I'm sure that the finish is not "concours", but the
cloth is quite invisible. In any event, it makes a pretty satisfactory canoe.
My thinking about "mat" is that if the problem is controlling the behavior of
the surface of the plywood or the surface of the expoxy coating or both, that
the short, disoriented strands of "mat", while too short to enhance the
sturcture's strength, might be long enough to stabilize a surface. (i.e. the
strands of "chopped strand mat" would be relatively long on the molecular or
other micro-scale where the "checking" and "holidays" (?) take place.) I
don't have any experience using "CSM", but have seen recommendations for it
use as a binding or interface layer in GRP layups, so I'm inclined to think
that (assuming compatible fabric and matrix) that it should "wet-out" as well
as woven fabric. I would appreciate your thoughts on this subject.
Bill in MN
Bill,
That's right, I glass-taped the chines and just sealed the rest w/o glass.
I had 4 or 5 small holes/flaws from fasteners or whatever that wicked water
through and stained the plywood underneath. Extra varnish would not cover.
Finally, (2 years, indoors) the plywood checked in a few places - obvious
flaws.
I used 4 ounce weave because I wanted it invisible enough for varnish,
which it is. I wouldn't think mat would do so, but I've never tried.
Point is, I've decided an epoxy film is worthless without glass (probably
also greatly improves thickness.) Paint's probably better. The scooner
outside (epoxy and 2 ounce woven) looks great, whereas the inside (epoxied
w/o glass) is already checking after a year.
You're right though - lots of opinions.
Gregg Carlson
That's right, I glass-taped the chines and just sealed the rest w/o glass.
I had 4 or 5 small holes/flaws from fasteners or whatever that wicked water
through and stained the plywood underneath. Extra varnish would not cover.
Finally, (2 years, indoors) the plywood checked in a few places - obvious
flaws.
I used 4 ounce weave because I wanted it invisible enough for varnish,
which it is. I wouldn't think mat would do so, but I've never tried.
Point is, I've decided an epoxy film is worthless without glass (probably
also greatly improves thickness.) Paint's probably better. The scooner
outside (epoxy and 2 ounce woven) looks great, whereas the inside (epoxied
w/o glass) is already checking after a year.
You're right though - lots of opinions.
Gregg Carlson
>In a message dated 6/5/00 11:20:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
>ghartc@...writes:
>
><< Epoxy
> sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute waste
> of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
> without holidays or checking.
> >>
>Greg: Do I correctly infer that your "Sneakeasy"'s topsides were
>epoxy-coated, but not glassed? Are you talking about "checking" of the
>plywood from enviromental exposure? What are "holidays"? If the object is to
>stabilize the surface, did you rule out using omni-directional short-strand
>"mat" or did you just have 4 oz. woven on hand? (I'm guessing that "mat" is
>lighter, cheaper and easier to "drape" than cloth.) Do you have a theory as
>to the cause of your problem? Between the variability of plywood and the
>multiplicity of finishes used (different for every builder, it seems), the
>problem of finishes for plywood used in a marine enviroment certainly seems
>unsolved!
>
>Bill in MN
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Never lose a file again. Protect yourself from accidental deletes,
>overwrites, and viruses with @Backup.
>Try @Backup it's easy, it's safe, and it's FREE!
>Click here to receive 300 MyPoints just for trying @Backup.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/4936/10/_/3457/_/960261564/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If the object is toThe binder in mat is is designed to desolve with polyester and not with epoxy.
> stabilize the surface, did you rule out using omni-directional short-strand
> "mat" or did you just have 4 oz. woven on hand? (I'm guessing that "mat" is
> lighter, cheaper and easier to "drape" than cloth.)
You can get special mat for epoxy but you have to shop for it. If the binder
does not desolve it is very difficult to wet out.
In addition I suspect that mat will not disappear like well wetted out light
weight cloth. Cloth stabilizes a surface and prevents breaks in the coating
which is the principle way coatings start to deteriorate.
A few years ago in an article in wooden boat, an individual wrote that he fiber
glassed some of his bight work coated it well in epoxy and then varnished it
well. The fiberglass can not be seen unless you get close and look. The finished
job was not up to concours finish standards, but it it looked pretty much the
same after 2 years. It held up better than a regular varnish job because the
surface was stable and could not crack. I want to try this out with angel hair
cloth some time. I t is in my to experiment on list.
HJ
_ _ _ _ _
% Harrywelshman@...
In a message dated 6/5/00 11:20:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
ghartc@...writes:
<< Epoxy
sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute waste
of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
without holidays or checking.
epoxy-coated, but not glassed? Are you talking about "checking" of the
plywood from enviromental exposure? What are "holidays"? If the object is to
stabilize the surface, did you rule out using omni-directional short-strand
"mat" or did you just have 4 oz. woven on hand? (I'm guessing that "mat" is
lighter, cheaper and easier to "drape" than cloth.) Do you have a theory as
to the cause of your problem? Between the variability of plywood and the
multiplicity of finishes used (different for every builder, it seems), the
problem of finishes for plywood used in a marine enviroment certainly seems
unsolved!
Bill in MN
ghartc@...writes:
<< Epoxy
sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute waste
of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
without holidays or checking.
>>Greg: Do I correctly infer that your "Sneakeasy"'s topsides were
epoxy-coated, but not glassed? Are you talking about "checking" of the
plywood from enviromental exposure? What are "holidays"? If the object is to
stabilize the surface, did you rule out using omni-directional short-strand
"mat" or did you just have 4 oz. woven on hand? (I'm guessing that "mat" is
lighter, cheaper and easier to "drape" than cloth.) Do you have a theory as
to the cause of your problem? Between the variability of plywood and the
multiplicity of finishes used (different for every builder, it seems), the
problem of finishes for plywood used in a marine enviroment certainly seems
unsolved!
Bill in MN
Had a chunk of plywood about three inches long and one inch wide torn out of
the bottom of Entropy the other day due to a nice hard grounding on a sharp
rock. My "armor" of epoxy and limestone prevents minor scratches, but cloth
would have prevented the chunk from comming out. Good thing my bottom is 1
inch thick...
Also, occasionaly when I step on thin ply (seats, cabin top, bottom of
pirogue, etc), I hear an ominous cracking sound. Glass on the underside
would prevent that as well.
the bottom of Entropy the other day due to a nice hard grounding on a sharp
rock. My "armor" of epoxy and limestone prevents minor scratches, but cloth
would have prevented the chunk from comming out. Good thing my bottom is 1
inch thick...
Also, occasionaly when I step on thin ply (seats, cabin top, bottom of
pirogue, etc), I hear an ominous cracking sound. Glass on the underside
would prevent that as well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Gilbert" <jgilbert@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] LS Margaret Ellen
>
> Gregg,
> Its a cerebral thing for me. I just dont feels safe without the layer
of
> glass, even if light.
> Even if the boat isnt in the water much. There are other factors, like
> contact points on a trailer.
> Superstructure and interior surfaces I dont feel so concerned about.
> Sometimes I feel a bit jealous of those casual folk who can slap a ply
boat
> togeter, epoxy and paint, and sling it in the water without a worry.
> Jeff Gilbert.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: GHC <ghartc@...>
> To: <bolger@egroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] LS Margaret Ellen
>
>
> On another note, I stripped, sanded, and glassed (4 ounce) the sides of my
> Sneakeasy last week - much easier done *right* from the beginning. Epoxy
> sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute waste
> of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
> without holidays or checking.
>
> Gregg Carlson
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free @Backup service! Click here for your free trial of @Backup.
> @Backup is the most convenient way to securely protect and access
> your files online. Try it now and receive 300 MyPoints.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/4935/10/_/3457/_/960229419/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
The Light Schooner has several rectangular sections that afford
opportunities to compare diagonal measurements. (Until the bottom is on,
nail a batten diagonally to hold dimensions during cure.) If fact, the
whole boat is quite flexible until the fillets cure and, finally, the
bottom goes on. A thread line down the center might also be useful.
My schooner was also true, but the transom twisted. Building upside-down,
I measured to the floor and jacked up a corner during cure. All obvious,
tricks, really.
On another note, I stripped, sanded, and glassed (4 ounce) the sides of my
Sneakeasy last week - much easier done *right* from the beginning. Epoxy
sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute waste
of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
without holidays or checking.
Gregg Carlson
opportunities to compare diagonal measurements. (Until the bottom is on,
nail a batten diagonally to hold dimensions during cure.) If fact, the
whole boat is quite flexible until the fillets cure and, finally, the
bottom goes on. A thread line down the center might also be useful.
My schooner was also true, but the transom twisted. Building upside-down,
I measured to the floor and jacked up a corner during cure. All obvious,
tricks, really.
On another note, I stripped, sanded, and glassed (4 ounce) the sides of my
Sneakeasy last week - much easier done *right* from the beginning. Epoxy
sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute waste
of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
without holidays or checking.
Gregg Carlson
>> Very inspiring to hear of the progress on your scooner. Any tricks/
>>hints/ tips on the process of lining up things prior to setting them in
>>epoxy? The possibility of building a non-symmetrical boat is one of my
>>chief dreads of this whole process. Regards, Warren
>>P.S. When I built my (very) little Tortoise, I was dismayed at the amount
>>of prep time it took for a finish of even modest quality.
Gregg,
Its a cerebral thing for me. I just dont feels safe without the layer of
glass, even if light.
Even if the boat isnt in the water much. There are other factors, like
contact points on a trailer.
Superstructure and interior surfaces I dont feel so concerned about.
Sometimes I feel a bit jealous of those casual folk who can slap a ply boat
togeter, epoxy and paint, and sling it in the water without a worry.
Jeff Gilbert.
Its a cerebral thing for me. I just dont feels safe without the layer of
glass, even if light.
Even if the boat isnt in the water much. There are other factors, like
contact points on a trailer.
Superstructure and interior surfaces I dont feel so concerned about.
Sometimes I feel a bit jealous of those casual folk who can slap a ply boat
togeter, epoxy and paint, and sling it in the water without a worry.
Jeff Gilbert.
----- Original Message -----
From: GHC <ghartc@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] LS Margaret Ellen
On another note, I stripped, sanded, and glassed (4 ounce) the sides of my
Sneakeasy last week - much easier done *right* from the beginning. Epoxy
sealing without some kind of minimum glass veil has been an absolute waste
of time for me. Glass is the only thing that forms a continuous film
without holidays or checking.
Gregg Carlson
>David,I dry fit everything with sheet rock screw (in spite of this, I still
> Very inspiring to hear of the progress on your scooner. Any tricks/
>hints/ tips on the process of lining up things prior to setting them in
>epoxy? The possibility of building a non-symmetrical boat is one of my
>chief dreads of this whole process. Regards, Warren
>P.S. When I built my (very) little Tortoise, I was dismayed at the amount
>of prep time it took for a finish of even modest quality.
managed to get #2 and #3 in backwards.)
One thing I know from surf-board shaping and sculpting is TRUST YOUR
EYE BALLS. Human beings are very, very sensitive to symmetry. Of
course, things can fool your eyes, but if it doesn't look square, but
all your measurements say it is, check your measurements again. Nine
times out of ten your eyes will be right.
I love the carpentry, but hate the finish work. My teal is
"work-boat" at best. But she sails, rows, and fishes great, so what's
the difference.
I know for some of the folks on this list, the showroom finish is the
crowning glory on the job. Maybe if I could do (or if I had the
patience/skills to do it) I'd feel the same way.
Don't look for any "detail" photos of LS Margaret Ellen.
Leaving on a bright note, I may well have the next week to tinker
with my boat. I'm hoping to have the hull carpentry more or less done
by this time next week!
YIBB,
David
CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 247-0296
To the Group:
Warren is probably too modest to mention it but he wrote a great article
about his tortoise for Duckworks Magazine:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/warren/index.htm
Chuck
Warren is probably too modest to mention it but he wrote a great article
about his tortoise for Duckworks Magazine:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/warren/index.htm
Chuck
> P.S. When I built my (very) little Tortoise, I was dismayed at theamount
> of prep time it took for a finish of even modest quality.
>Warren
David,
Very inspiring to hear of the progress on your scooner. Any tricks/
hints/ tips on the process of lining up things prior to setting them in
epoxy? The possibility of building a non-symmetrical boat is one of my
chief dreads of this whole process. Regards, Warren
P.S. When I built my (very) little Tortoise, I was dismayed at the amount
of prep time it took for a finish of even modest quality.
Very inspiring to hear of the progress on your scooner. Any tricks/
hints/ tips on the process of lining up things prior to setting them in
epoxy? The possibility of building a non-symmetrical boat is one of my
chief dreads of this whole process. Regards, Warren
P.S. When I built my (very) little Tortoise, I was dismayed at the amount
of prep time it took for a finish of even modest quality.