AW: [bolger] Re: Zephyr - pics
Am 2006-05-23 07:16:33 schrieb(en) graeme19121984:
cockpit. when you are alone in the boat it is not a big deal, but with
2 and all the sticks it starts to get crowded.
works mainly through its weight. But for a boat this light it was fine.
up it is very stable. but you need 2 really strong guys to get it up
that way. because of the rocker it wants to flip, and as its almost
double-ended you hold the poited ends and dont get a good grip to
counteract this. the second time we did it it flipped, and almost
smashed the cars side windows. no more tries.
there is plenty of room for camping gear, but you have to put
everything in watertight bags, and lash it firmly so it wont slide
around. if I would build her again I would extend the bow compartment
back to the mast step, and add a good-sized hatch on centerline.
inwale bothering you.
I prefer long pants and a straw hat against the sun. there are already
enough sticks on board, and it would be in the way of the boom when you
are tacking. but have a look at birdwatcher or jim michalaks smaller
models.
--
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
> How did you find stowing the rig when not sailing? Were the longyes they were. I usually had them sticking out the front of the
> yard and boom in the way of rowing etc?
cockpit. when you are alone in the boat it is not a big deal, but with
2 and all the sticks it starts to get crowded.
> By the way,its some no-name italian maybe-danforth-inspired thing. I suspect it
> what is that anchor type called -I don't recall seeing one exactly
> like it before.
works mainly through its weight. But for a boat this light it was fine.
>for cartopping upside down you need a rather wide roof rack, and once
> I see you tried cartopping both upright and inverted, did you have
> to travel far to launch? Your cruising grounds looks nice, and there
> sure is a lot of room in Zephyr to carry the camp gear.
up it is very stable. but you need 2 really strong guys to get it up
that way. because of the rocker it wants to flip, and as its almost
double-ended you hold the poited ends and dont get a good grip to
counteract this. the second time we did it it flipped, and almost
smashed the cars side windows. no more tries.
there is plenty of room for camping gear, but you have to put
everything in watertight bags, and lash it firmly so it wont slide
around. if I would build her again I would extend the bow compartment
back to the mast step, and add a good-sized hatch on centerline.
>sailing position was very comfortable, reclining against the sides, no
> Were you able to sail her from a similar semi-reclined position as
> that shown in a test on the lawn? If so, perhaps a small hoop framed
> sunshelter could provide some sun protection to the helmsperson when
> under way?
inwale bothering you.
I prefer long pants and a straw hat against the sun. there are already
enough sticks on board, and it would be in the way of the boom when you
are tacking. but have a look at birdwatcher or jim michalaks smaller
models.
>my pleasure!
> Thanks for posting the photos Hannes.
>
--
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
Wow, you sure eat well there. Oysters, yummmmm-mmmmy. By the way,
what is that anchor type called -I don't recall seeing one exactly
like it before.
I see you tried cartopping both upright and inverted, did you have
to travel far to launch? Your cruising grounds looks nice, and there
sure is a lot of room in Zephyr to carry the camp gear.
Were you able to sail her from a similar semi-reclined position as
that shown in a test on the lawn? If so, perhaps a small hoop framed
sunshelter could provide some sun protection to the helmsperson when
under way?
Thanks for posting the photos Hannes.
Cheers
Graeme
- and yes I realise now the photo is of $200Sailboat (Featherwind) -
it had me going - the rudder-head, dagerboard-head and everythng,
but didn't quite seem long enough...Don't seem to be able to
edit/delete it now.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/de50?b=2
what is that anchor type called -I don't recall seeing one exactly
like it before.
I see you tried cartopping both upright and inverted, did you have
to travel far to launch? Your cruising grounds looks nice, and there
sure is a lot of room in Zephyr to carry the camp gear.
Were you able to sail her from a similar semi-reclined position as
that shown in a test on the lawn? If so, perhaps a small hoop framed
sunshelter could provide some sun protection to the helmsperson when
under way?
Thanks for posting the photos Hannes.
Cheers
Graeme
- and yes I realise now the photo is of $200Sailboat (Featherwind) -
it had me going - the rudder-head, dagerboard-head and everythng,
but didn't quite seem long enough...Don't seem to be able to
edit/delete it now.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/de50?b=2
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hannes <datenmull@...> wrote:
>
> I have added an album "Zephyr" to Bolger2/Photos. More to come
when I
> dig out the photos to scan them. Surprised theres still so much
space!
>
> hannes
>
>
>
> --
> hannes kühtreiber
> datenmull@...
>http://www.datenmull.at.tf
>
Yahoo increased the alloted file space in the last year or so, all the older Bolger overflow sites had room when I looked a few months ago.
HJ
HJ
----- Original Message -----
From: hannes <datenmull@...>
Date: Friday, May 19, 2006 0:15 am
Subject: AW: [bolger] Re: Zephyr - pics
> I have added an album "Zephyr" to Bolger2/Photos. More to come
> when I
> dig out the photos to scan them. Surprised theres still so much space!
>
> hannes
>
>
>
> --
> hannes kühtreiber
>datenmull@...
>http://www.datenmull.at.tf
>
>
>
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I have added an album "Zephyr" to Bolger2/Photos. More to come when I
dig out the photos to scan them. Surprised theres still so much space!
hannes
--
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
dig out the photos to scan them. Surprised theres still so much space!
hannes
--
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hannes <datenmull@...> wrote:
when I can, I'll try searching for those resources.
scan and post some pics of your boat.
read the chapter about the beautiful gold-plater Wisp. Bolger
mentions that the Payson "Zephyr" was an earlier cheap version in
the Wisp category.
My point is that one of the main design objects was that Wisp (ergo
Zephyr) was able to be cartopped on a fairly large car by
being "light enough"(!); and Wisp had side decks as well!!! PCB said
length helped, but what is "light enough"? Although cold moulded
wouldn't Wisp weigh pretty much the same as Zephyr? (Also there are
Michalaks comments about trouble cartopping a double-ender that seem
opposed to PCB's.)
yard and boom in the way of rowing etc?
cheers
Graeme
> there used to be a zephyr folder in one of the "earlier" bolgerHi Hannes,
>groups, I'd expect it is still there. It even made it into
>woodenboat, if I am not mistaken.
when I can, I'll try searching for those resources.
> My boat was the standard black/white bolger paint scheme, which IYou should see what "black" does to ply in Queensland :-(
>think looks very good. but the ply painted black is more prone to
>checking because it heats up so much.
> if you cant find any pics let me know, I could scan some.I'd be grateful, and I'm sure others would be too, if you were to
scan and post some pics of your boat.
> as for cartopping, I wouldnt really recommend it, clever gadgetsI've not long had a copy of "30-Odd Boats", and recently was able to
>or not. It can be done, but you will not do it very often, which
>means you will not get much sailing.
read the chapter about the beautiful gold-plater Wisp. Bolger
mentions that the Payson "Zephyr" was an earlier cheap version in
the Wisp category.
My point is that one of the main design objects was that Wisp (ergo
Zephyr) was able to be cartopped on a fairly large car by
being "light enough"(!); and Wisp had side decks as well!!! PCB said
length helped, but what is "light enough"? Although cold moulded
wouldn't Wisp weigh pretty much the same as Zephyr? (Also there are
Michalaks comments about trouble cartopping a double-ender that seem
opposed to PCB's.)
> My rig was a tad smaller than shown on the plans to fit theHow did you find stowing the rig when not sailing? Were the long
>polytarp I made it from. Still you'd want two aboard to make her
>stand up to her canvas well. Reefing a lateen rig singlehanded in a
>boat this narrow calls for good balance and careful timing, but
>once reefed performance was good. you may want to do this before
>setting of, if the conditions are blustery.
> all the best
> hannes
>
yard and boom in the way of rowing etc?
cheers
Graeme
On 5/17/06, Susan Davis <futabachan@...> wrote:
suggest, (by putting the link in the description field). Search the
database for "http" and you will get a list of the designs with links.
The missing element is that there is a shortage of people who
volunteer to maintain the database.
> Hannes:Perennial problem <smile>. There is already an attempt to do as you
> > there used to be a zephyr folder in one of the "earlier" bolger
> > groups,
>
> Modest suggestion: perhaps we can add a column to the database
> containing the location of photos for each design? It still might get
> out of date from people forgetting to update it, but it's better than
> having to go slogging through eight groups, for both the Files and
> Photos sections....
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
suggest, (by putting the link in the description field). Search the
database for "http" and you will get a list of the designs with links.
The missing element is that there is a shortage of people who
volunteer to maintain the database.
Hannes:
containing the location of photos for each design? It still might get
out of date from people forgetting to update it, but it's better than
having to go slogging through eight groups, for both the Files and
Photos sections....
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> there used to be a zephyr folder in one of the "earlier" bolgerModest suggestion: perhaps we can add a column to the database
> groups,
containing the location of photos for each design? It still might get
out of date from people forgetting to update it, but it's better than
having to go slogging through eight groups, for both the Files and
Photos sections....
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
there used to be a zephyr folder in one of the "earlier" bolger groups,
I'd expect it is still there. It even made it into woodenboat, if I am
not mistaken.
My boat was the standard black/white bolger paint scheme, which I think
looks very good. but the ply painted black is more prone to checking
because it heats up so much.
if you cant find any pics let me know, I could scan some.
as for cartopping, I wouldnt really recommend it, clever gadgets or
not. It can be done, but you will not do it very often, which means you
will not get much sailing.
My rig was a tad smaller than shown on the plans to fit the polytarp I
made it from. Still you'd want two aboard to make her stand up to her
canvas well. Reefing a lateen rig singlehanded in a boat this narrow
calls for good balance and careful timing, but once reefed performance
was good. you may want to do this before setting of, if the conditions
are blustery.
all the best
hannes
Am 2006-05-15 12:07:02 schrieb(en) graeme19121984:
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
I'd expect it is still there. It even made it into woodenboat, if I am
not mistaken.
My boat was the standard black/white bolger paint scheme, which I think
looks very good. but the ply painted black is more prone to checking
because it heats up so much.
if you cant find any pics let me know, I could scan some.
as for cartopping, I wouldnt really recommend it, clever gadgets or
not. It can be done, but you will not do it very often, which means you
will not get much sailing.
My rig was a tad smaller than shown on the plans to fit the polytarp I
made it from. Still you'd want two aboard to make her stand up to her
canvas well. Reefing a lateen rig singlehanded in a boat this narrow
calls for good balance and careful timing, but once reefed performance
was good. you may want to do this before setting of, if the conditions
are blustery.
all the best
hannes
Am 2006-05-15 12:07:02 schrieb(en) graeme19121984:
>--
>
> This is great - the most info ever on Zephyr, around 12 posts now in
> this thread on what seems to be a good but overlooked design. Please
> post pics.
>
> Hannes,
> I enjoyed looking through your linked flickr site. Are your boats as
> visually arresting as your art? Nice photos, have you any of your
> Zephyr? The only photo on the net is the blury H H Payson one with
> the three kids up front. Someone at the Instant Boats Message Board
>http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewforum.phpf=1&sid=f3c055f260ad1f48e
> 86453fade9bd2b posted they would ask Mr Payson if he had any more,
> and then posted that he had no others.
>
> Have you any photos of your ramp setup?
>
> Regarding: "never flipped her, either"
>
> Is the low lateen sail the key factor here? John Kirkman
>http://www.hitcity.com.au/KirkmanDesign.infodesigned a sharpie he
> calls a dhow-dory for a strong wind area in South Africa. It's
> finely tuned, unballasted, shallow daggerboarded, a bit more in WL
> beam than Zephyr, but about the same length, and has a lateen rig of
> similar size. He had long term involvement in building Wharram type
> catamarans etc for the sailing tourist charter industry in southern
> Africa, and noticed the excellent sailing of the dhows off the
> Mozambique coast. ""Dhow Jones" has shown her (SA) owners that she
> was safe in winds of well over 25 knots on Langebaan Lagoon, where
> she is known as the yacht that goes out in strong wind." Storm
> rigged, they sail on after all other craft have left the water,
> including board and kite sailors. AABB #43 50
>
> Graeme
>
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
This is great - the most info ever on Zephyr, around 12 posts now in
this thread on what seems to be a good but overlooked design. Please
post pics.
Hannes,
I enjoyed looking through your linked flickr site. Are your boats as
visually arresting as your art? Nice photos, have you any of your
Zephyr? The only photo on the net is the blury H H Payson one with
the three kids up front. Someone at the Instant Boats Message Board
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewforum.phpf=1&sid=f3c055f260ad1f48e
86453fade9bd2b posted they would ask Mr Payson if he had any more,
and then posted that he had no others.
Have you any photos of your ramp setup?
Regarding: "never flipped her, either"
Is the low lateen sail the key factor here? John Kirkman
http://www.hitcity.com.au/KirkmanDesign.infodesigned a sharpie he
calls a dhow-dory for a strong wind area in South Africa. It's
finely tuned, unballasted, shallow daggerboarded, a bit more in WL
beam than Zephyr, but about the same length, and has a lateen rig of
similar size. He had long term involvement in building Wharram type
catamarans etc for the sailing tourist charter industry in southern
Africa, and noticed the excellent sailing of the dhows off the
Mozambique coast. ""Dhow Jones" has shown her (SA) owners that she
was safe in winds of well over 25 knots on Langebaan Lagoon, where
she is known as the yacht that goes out in strong wind." Storm
rigged, they sail on after all other craft have left the water,
including board and kite sailors. AABB #43 50
Graeme
this thread on what seems to be a good but overlooked design. Please
post pics.
Hannes,
I enjoyed looking through your linked flickr site. Are your boats as
visually arresting as your art? Nice photos, have you any of your
Zephyr? The only photo on the net is the blury H H Payson one with
the three kids up front. Someone at the Instant Boats Message Board
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewforum.phpf=1&sid=f3c055f260ad1f48e
86453fade9bd2b posted they would ask Mr Payson if he had any more,
and then posted that he had no others.
Have you any photos of your ramp setup?
Regarding: "never flipped her, either"
Is the low lateen sail the key factor here? John Kirkman
http://www.hitcity.com.au/KirkmanDesign.infodesigned a sharpie he
calls a dhow-dory for a strong wind area in South Africa. It's
finely tuned, unballasted, shallow daggerboarded, a bit more in WL
beam than Zephyr, but about the same length, and has a lateen rig of
similar size. He had long term involvement in building Wharram type
catamarans etc for the sailing tourist charter industry in southern
Africa, and noticed the excellent sailing of the dhows off the
Mozambique coast. ""Dhow Jones" has shown her (SA) owners that she
was safe in winds of well over 25 knots on Langebaan Lagoon, where
she is known as the yacht that goes out in strong wind." Storm
rigged, they sail on after all other craft have left the water,
including board and kite sailors. AABB #43 50
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hannes <datenmull@...> wrote:
>
> I did cartop zephyr for three years, building sort of a ramp to
haul
> her on top of my car.
> But it was backbreaking work, and the main reason I scrapped her
this
> spring.
>
> As gary said, the big cockpit was very nice. never flipped her,
either.
>
> I built a michalak-style leeboard on one side which worked well,
but
> the water coming through the slot in the gunwale on the board side
made
> her much wetter on this tack.
>
> hannes
>
>
>
> --
> hannes kühtreiber
> datenmull@...
>http://www.datenmull.at.tf
>
I did cartop zephyr for three years, building sort of a ramp to haul
her on top of my car.
But it was backbreaking work, and the main reason I scrapped her this
spring.
As gary said, the big cockpit was very nice. never flipped her, either.
I built a michalak-style leeboard on one side which worked well, but
the water coming through the slot in the gunwale on the board side made
her much wetter on this tack.
hannes
--
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
her on top of my car.
But it was backbreaking work, and the main reason I scrapped her this
spring.
As gary said, the big cockpit was very nice. never flipped her, either.
I built a michalak-style leeboard on one side which worked well, but
the water coming through the slot in the gunwale on the board side made
her much wetter on this tack.
hannes
--
hannes kühtreiber
datenmull@...
http://www.datenmull.at.tf
> A couple of things about Windsprint:starts
>
> 1) While it is possible to car top, it's really too big for anyone to
> want to do very often. Find a trailer, you'll be much happier for it.
> 2) No side decks means that you need to mind the heel. If water
> over the gunwale, you're almost certainly going swimming.about
> 3) Windsprints are FUN to sail, especially with two aboard. The extra
> person really lets you take advantage of the power of that big rig.
>
> I imagine Zephyr would also be a hoot, just faster. Same caveats
> cartopping and water over the gunwales apply.I wouldn't want to cartop a Zephyr either. If anyone ever has,I bet
>
> JB
>
they only did it once :-)
A major different between Zephyr & Windsprint is the latter is
specified for four 1/4-inch sheets of ply (if my memory is correct),
while Zephyr is four 3/8=inch sheets. So the hull is going to be 50
percent heavier. (I always thought I should be able to drag the hull up
on a beach, but never could. That's probably partly due to the 1.5 by
1.5 inch shoe on the bottom.)
Winsprint also carries a 113 or 114 square foot sail; Zephyr's is 81
square feet. I always though the boat was slow in beating in light
winds, but I also thing that is because the sail was cut too flat. She
would fly reaching & running in fresh winds. Like most flat bottom
boats, she was not particularly dry under sail.
I never felt particularly cramped steering in the stern, but I'm only
of average height The angle of the sides made a comfortable backrest.
The long cockpit was nice. She could carry a cooler, snorkeling geer,
anchor, etc. and still leave lots of room for two people to spawl. I
think her records was carrying six people, four of them adults.
The five-foot dagger leeboard was a pain; I used a 3.5 foot version
because everywhere I sailed it had shoal water. A Michalak type
pivoting leeboard might work, but the bracing would have to be kept
light. Even the short leeboard & its blocking produced a noticeable
list at achnor.
Maybe I'm overcautious, but I never did flip her.
Gary
I'll say!
I built the Windsprint 'cause it seemed the biggest thing that could
be cartopped. Worked with some effort -until almost not making it
late one night in steep surrounds that made the car seem twice as high.
Though the triple gunwales make the sides quite stiff, for the
trailer it won't hurt to add another layer to the flexy bottom.
Mark
I built the Windsprint 'cause it seemed the biggest thing that could
be cartopped. Worked with some effort -until almost not making it
late one night in steep surrounds that made the car seem twice as high.
Though the triple gunwales make the sides quite stiff, for the
trailer it won't hurt to add another layer to the flexy bottom.
Mark
On May 11, 2006, at 4:59 PM, John Bell wrote:
>
> A couple of things about Windsprint:
>
> 1) While it is possible to car top, it's really too big for anyone to
> want to do very often.
>
Nels wrote:
1) While it is possible to car top, it's really too big for anyone to
want to do very often. Find a trailer, you'll be much happier for it.
2) No side decks means that you need to mind the heel. If water starts
over the gunwale, you're almost certainly going swimming.
3) Windsprints are FUN to sail, especially with two aboard. The extra
person really lets you take advantage of the power of that big rig.
I imagine Zephyr would also be a hoot, just faster. Same caveats about
cartopping and water over the gunwales apply.
JB
>A couple of things about Windsprint:
> Anyone contemplating building a Zephyr or Windsprint should check
> out John Bell's website as it may be useful.
>
>http://www.mindspring.com/~jmbell/wsmain.htm
>
> John also mentions what he would do if he built another Windsprint.
> (Besides saying he would build the second one first:-)
>
>
1) While it is possible to car top, it's really too big for anyone to
want to do very often. Find a trailer, you'll be much happier for it.
2) No side decks means that you need to mind the heel. If water starts
over the gunwale, you're almost certainly going swimming.
3) Windsprints are FUN to sail, especially with two aboard. The extra
person really lets you take advantage of the power of that big rig.
I imagine Zephyr would also be a hoot, just faster. Same caveats about
cartopping and water over the gunwales apply.
JB
I should probably update that page.
Anyway, Nels, you have mail. The PDF is 2 MB. I'll let you figure out
where to post it.
Nels wrote:
Anyway, Nels, you have mail. The PDF is 2 MB. I'll let you figure out
where to post it.
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
> wrote:
>
>> It seems there is not much written on Zephyr, which is a shame as
>> she has a good review at Duckworks
>>
>
> Anyone contemplating building a Zephyr or Windsprint should check
> out John Bell's website as it may be useful.
>
>http://www.mindspring.com/~jmbell/wsmain.htm
>
> John also mentions what he would do if he built another Windsprint.
> (Besides saying he would build the second one first:-)
>
> Also just a gentle reminder to John that I would sure appreciate
> seeing the article on the Amherst Galley he mentioned.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
out John Bell's website as it may be useful.
http://www.mindspring.com/~jmbell/wsmain.htm
John also mentions what he would do if he built another Windsprint.
(Besides saying he would build the second one first:-)
Also just a gentle reminder to John that I would sure appreciate
seeing the article on the Amherst Galley he mentioned.
Nels
wrote:
>Anyone contemplating building a Zephyr or Windsprint should check
> It seems there is not much written on Zephyr, which is a shame as
> she has a good review at Duckworks
out John Bell's website as it may be useful.
http://www.mindspring.com/~jmbell/wsmain.htm
John also mentions what he would do if he built another Windsprint.
(Besides saying he would build the second one first:-)
Also just a gentle reminder to John that I would sure appreciate
seeing the article on the Amherst Galley he mentioned.
Nels
It seems there is not much written on Zephyr, which is a shame as
she has a good review at Duckworks
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/ddrd/index.cfm
Gary wrote at one point here IIRC that he thought the sides a little
high for good rowing when considering a suitable boat for the EC;
even so she would go well enough for ordinary mortal rowing and
paddling (single?) up a creek would be an option.
There were posts early in these archives that said she was a good
boat, but that if doing it again they'd build a Surf, or Windsprint.
That was because she was heavy to car-top and they had to trailer
her, but what twenty foot boat for three or four adults is easily
cartopped? Is Windsprint? I think for carrying less crew her
scantlings could be reduced, keeping the thicker bottom. What is her
design displacement?
Payson says she is the easiest instant boat to build, and kept one.
He loved to sail it, said it sailed wonderfully, with lots of
lounging space, and it seems he took prospective customers out for a
sail in her. He left her moored for the season.
She is over Bolger's 6:1 L:B ratio for a good sailing sharpie. Not
many are. The leeboard is at the widest beam, so a conventional
Pirate Racer type, or Michalak pivoting leeboard with pivoting
rudder for thin waters could be arranged.
Someone was going to birdwatcher a Zephyr.
In trials Bolger said Query out-sailed Zephyr. Query had a much
bigger rig.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
to
she has a good review at Duckworks
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/ddrd/index.cfm
Gary wrote at one point here IIRC that he thought the sides a little
high for good rowing when considering a suitable boat for the EC;
even so she would go well enough for ordinary mortal rowing and
paddling (single?) up a creek would be an option.
There were posts early in these archives that said she was a good
boat, but that if doing it again they'd build a Surf, or Windsprint.
That was because she was heavy to car-top and they had to trailer
her, but what twenty foot boat for three or four adults is easily
cartopped? Is Windsprint? I think for carrying less crew her
scantlings could be reduced, keeping the thicker bottom. What is her
design displacement?
Payson says she is the easiest instant boat to build, and kept one.
He loved to sail it, said it sailed wonderfully, with lots of
lounging space, and it seems he took prospective customers out for a
sail in her. He left her moored for the season.
She is over Bolger's 6:1 L:B ratio for a good sailing sharpie. Not
many are. The leeboard is at the widest beam, so a conventional
Pirate Racer type, or Michalak pivoting leeboard with pivoting
rudder for thin waters could be arranged.
Someone was going to birdwatcher a Zephyr.
In trials Bolger said Query out-sailed Zephyr. Query had a much
bigger rig.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
>board
> > I suspect, and Susan may confirm, that SHS may be tricky in shoal
> waters.
> > Centerboard draws about 3 feet.
>
>
> Zephyr has a fixed leeboard, but it's light, not like the 100 lb
> of the SHS. Zephyr has never been very popular, probably for somegood
> reason. It's a pretty big effort for a boat so narrow it's noteasy
to
> sit in.
>
> I suspect, and Susan may confirm, that SHS may be tricky in shoalwaters.
> Centerboard draws about 3 feet.Zephyr has a fixed leeboard, but it's light, not like the 100 lb board
of the SHS. Zephyr has never been very popular, probably for some good
reason. It's a pretty big effort for a boat so narrow it's not easy to
sit in.
Kevin,
I will second this. I didn't mention Zephyr because I do not have any
references to it other than H.H. Payson's web page, which is deliberately
vague. It is, as far as I can tell, proportioned similarly to what you
want, though narrower than SHS. It's probably worth the modest expense to
buy Payson's book "Instant Boats" Study plan and build instructions are
there for Zephyr.
I suspect, and Susan may confirm, that SHS may be tricky in shoal waters.
Centerboard draws about 3 feet. Since the rudder mounts through a similar
trunk, you can not set up a kick-up arrangement. The centerboard seems
large, but there is a pretty good amount of sail area and the length is
probably intended to enhance the effect of the ballast. The ballast allows
one or two occupants to sail without hiking out to keep the rig upright. By
comparison, I am told that the admittedly larger Light Schooner requires at
least three crew to tend the rig and act as human ballast to keep it
upright.
You could also look at the various books that collect Mr. Bolger's designs
and commentary. There are several candidates that could very well satisfy
your requirements. You could, for instance, build a birdwatcher without the
glass house.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Susan Davis
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 2:06 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Looking for a hull design
Snip...
One more option to consider: the Zephyr is of a similar shape to the
Windsprint (and has similar simplicity of construction), and it's
naturally 20 feet long with no stretching.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
I will second this. I didn't mention Zephyr because I do not have any
references to it other than H.H. Payson's web page, which is deliberately
vague. It is, as far as I can tell, proportioned similarly to what you
want, though narrower than SHS. It's probably worth the modest expense to
buy Payson's book "Instant Boats" Study plan and build instructions are
there for Zephyr.
I suspect, and Susan may confirm, that SHS may be tricky in shoal waters.
Centerboard draws about 3 feet. Since the rudder mounts through a similar
trunk, you can not set up a kick-up arrangement. The centerboard seems
large, but there is a pretty good amount of sail area and the length is
probably intended to enhance the effect of the ballast. The ballast allows
one or two occupants to sail without hiking out to keep the rig upright. By
comparison, I am told that the admittedly larger Light Schooner requires at
least three crew to tend the rig and act as human ballast to keep it
upright.
You could also look at the various books that collect Mr. Bolger's designs
and commentary. There are several candidates that could very well satisfy
your requirements. You could, for instance, build a birdwatcher without the
glass house.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Susan Davis
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 2:06 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Looking for a hull design
Snip...
One more option to consider: the Zephyr is of a similar shape to the
Windsprint (and has similar simplicity of construction), and it's
naturally 20 feet long with no stretching.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kevin O'Neill <K_S_ONeill@...> wrote:
Windsprint (and has similar simplicity of construction), and it's
naturally 20 feet long with no stretching.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>One more option to consider: the Zephyr is of a similar shape to the
> The SHS is a nice profile, but is all decked over
> except for the two cockpits, and is a bit narrow, I
> think. Stretching the WIndsprint is a good idea, I'll
> look at that.
Windsprint (and has similar simplicity of construction), and it's
naturally 20 feet long with no stretching.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Hi
I saw the Centennial II design, and was very
interested in it until I read the sailing description
by the owner (boat goes to windward very badly, they
only ever passed one boat to windward in years of
sailing, etc). So, I dunno. Maybe bad sails, maybe
not a good sailor, maybe the boat just doesn't go to
windward very well.
Kevin
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
I saw the Centennial II design, and was very
interested in it until I read the sailing description
by the owner (boat goes to windward very badly, they
only ever passed one boat to windward in years of
sailing, etc). So, I dunno. Maybe bad sails, maybe
not a good sailor, maybe the boat just doesn't go to
windward very well.
Kevin
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherillhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Centennial%
> <wetherillc@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Judging by the way the Chebacco boat design was
> stretched to 25
> feet, it
> > may be better to try to keep the breadth similar
> when scaling up
> rather
> > than multiply all dimensions by 1.25.
>
> That is the same with Long Micro. Just add a section
> in the middle:-)
>
> Then there is Centennial. (Older building method
> though)
>
>
> 20Sailboat/
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
Hi
The SHS is a nice profile, but is all decked over
except for the two cockpits, and is a bit narrow, I
think. Stretching the WIndsprint is a good idea, I'll
look at that.
Kevin
--- Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
The SHS is a nice profile, but is all decked over
except for the two cockpits, and is a bit narrow, I
think. Stretching the WIndsprint is a good idea, I'll
look at that.
Kevin
--- Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Judging by the way the Chebacco boat design was
> stretched to 25 feet, it
> may be better to try to keep the breadth similar
> when scaling up rather
> than multiply all dimensions by 1.25. If you scale
> all dimensions by
> 1.25, you get 1.25x1.25 or 1.56 times the wetted
> area and waterplane
> area. and something approaching 2 times the mass.
> The last factor is
> very rough because it depends upon increasing
> plywood thickness and
> adding framing. It might be easier to choose a
> similar boat that is
> longer but of similar shape and breadth. In short,
> Singlehander
> Schooner. It appears to me that SHS is similar to
> what you get when you
> scale up windsprint, stiffen the structure to
> support the larger size
> and put in partners and centerboard.
>
> I myself am torn between this one and Windsprint.
>
> Chris
>
> adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
> > ...snip...
> >
> > One possibility is to take Bolger's Windsprint
> design and scale it up
> > 25% from 16' to 20'.
> > There's also Bolger's 20' Zephyr design, but your
> rig might be too much
> > canvas for it. Bolger's 19'-6" Single Handed
> Schooner would stand up
> > to that sail area if you didn't mind dealing with
> the ballasted
> > daggerboard. Your rig could probably also be
> adapted to Bolger's 23'-
> > 6" Light Schooner, but you might have to spoil the
> aft cockpit with a
> > mast partner for the mizzen. All of the above are
> available from
> > Payson. Reuel Parker's "The Sharpie Book" also
> has a few possibilities
> > in this size range
> (http://www.parker-marine.com/), but nothing that
> > would go together as quickly as a Windsprint.
> >
> > Jon Kolb
> > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
Then there is Centennial. (Older building method though)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Centennial%
20Sailboat/
Nels
wrote:
>feet, it
> Hello,
>
> Judging by the way the Chebacco boat design was stretched to 25
> may be better to try to keep the breadth similar when scaling uprather
> than multiply all dimensions by 1.25.That is the same with Long Micro. Just add a section in the middle:-)
Then there is Centennial. (Older building method though)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Centennial%
20Sailboat/
Nels
> > I would think that this rig would be a waste used asOK - That may work.
> > a mizzen sail.
>
> Why? I still mean to use it on the dinghy, but it's
> about the right size for a mizzen for this boat too.
> I rather like the idea of a rig that drops into two
> different boats.
>
> Kevin
>
I was just thinking that with a cat yawl, like Micro the mizzen is cut
and set-up very flat, as it is used mostly as an "air rudder."
Otherwise it might create a lot of annoying fluttering and noise -
which is hard on the sail not to mention the nerves - if there is to
much fullness in the sail.
Nels
Hello,
Judging by the way the Chebacco boat design was stretched to 25 feet, it
may be better to try to keep the breadth similar when scaling up rather
than multiply all dimensions by 1.25. If you scale all dimensions by
1.25, you get 1.25x1.25 or 1.56 times the wetted area and waterplane
area. and something approaching 2 times the mass. The last factor is
very rough because it depends upon increasing plywood thickness and
adding framing. It might be easier to choose a similar boat that is
longer but of similar shape and breadth. In short, Singlehander
Schooner. It appears to me that SHS is similar to what you get when you
scale up windsprint, stiffen the structure to support the larger size
and put in partners and centerboard.
I myself am torn between this one and Windsprint.
Chris
adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
Judging by the way the Chebacco boat design was stretched to 25 feet, it
may be better to try to keep the breadth similar when scaling up rather
than multiply all dimensions by 1.25. If you scale all dimensions by
1.25, you get 1.25x1.25 or 1.56 times the wetted area and waterplane
area. and something approaching 2 times the mass. The last factor is
very rough because it depends upon increasing plywood thickness and
adding framing. It might be easier to choose a similar boat that is
longer but of similar shape and breadth. In short, Singlehander
Schooner. It appears to me that SHS is similar to what you get when you
scale up windsprint, stiffen the structure to support the larger size
and put in partners and centerboard.
I myself am torn between this one and Windsprint.
Chris
adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
> ...snip...
>
> One possibility is to take Bolger's Windsprint design and scale it up
> 25% from 16' to 20'.
> There's also Bolger's 20' Zephyr design, but your rig might be too much
> canvas for it. Bolger's 19'-6" Single Handed Schooner would stand up
> to that sail area if you didn't mind dealing with the ballasted
> daggerboard. Your rig could probably also be adapted to Bolger's 23'-
> 6" Light Schooner, but you might have to spoil the aft cockpit with a
> mast partner for the mizzen. All of the above are available from
> Payson. Reuel Parker's "The Sharpie Book" also has a few possibilities
> in this size range (http://www.parker-marine.com/), but nothing that
> would go together as quickly as a Windsprint.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi
Thanks. Since you've sailed the boat, perhaps you can
answer a question; is the transom in the water when
the boat's sailing with a normal load? I thought this
was a no-no in this sort of boat, but it looks from
the pictures as though it might be.
thanks again
Kevin
--- David <arbordg@...> wrote:
Thanks. Since you've sailed the boat, perhaps you can
answer a question; is the transom in the water when
the boat's sailing with a normal load? I thought this
was a no-no in this sort of boat, but it looks from
the pictures as though it might be.
thanks again
Kevin
--- David <arbordg@...> wrote:
> Kevin,
>
> Don't know how helpful this will be, but something
> occurs to me. You
> have described, fairly accurately, a Goat Island
> Skiff. The GIS was
> designed by Australian, Michael Storer. We built one
> and put it in
> the water about a year ago. Very happy with it.
> However... it is only
> 15' - 6", and cat-rigged with a balanced lugsail of
> about 105 sq. ft.
> I imagine this design could become a stretched cat
> ketch of 20+ feet,
> but that would take a bit of work by Mr. Storer.
> He's fairly
> accessible, so you could contact him & see if he'd
> be interested in
> creating a larger version.
>
> Good Luck,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
> "In a rough & rugged rolling sea, all good sailors
> set to pee"
>
> ******************
>
> -- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill"
> <K_S_ONeill@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I need some advice on picking a flat bottomed
> hull, and where better
> > to ask? So:
> >
> > I have a lug rig, a nice red four sided lug sail
> of about 87 ft^2
> > which I took off a plywood dory a few years ago
> and which has been
> > sitting in my rafters every since. I have also a
> nutshell pram rig,
> > also a standing lug, on a little dinghy; the pram
> sail is about 54
> > ft^2. Both of these rigs are more or less
> complete, and they look
> > nice next to each other. I have also a buddy, who
> in the fullness
> of
> > time will be finished with a Core Sound 20. I
> have also a proa, on
> > which I lavish much time and attention, and which
> sometimes rewards
> me
> > with a whole day of screaming around the bay
> before something
> breaks.
> > So that's me.
> >
> > Looking into the future, I see, in a while, the
> Core Sound getting
> > towards being finished. I see me, to tell the
> truth, still messing
> > about with various sail rigs on the proa, some
> working better than
> > others. None of them so far has lent itself to
> reefing, and at
> > any rate the proa is a poor choice to cruise in
> company with the
> Core
> > Sound, it's too fast, too wet, too little payload,
> and parts of it
> > break off at awkward times.
> >
> > I have a dream, though. I have a dream... The
> dream is imagined
> > roughly to be:
> >
> > a flat bottomed girl of about 20'. I suppose I
> could do a v bottom,
> > but simple is best. I could go a bit bigger, 3
> sheets of ply gives
> > one 24', but it seems to me that 20' ought to do
> what I want. Speed
> > of building is a big deal here.
> >
> > plywood construction, simple and fast to build.
> This is going to be
> > the fastest, least-epoxy, cheapest paint it and
> get it on the water
> > job you've ever heard of, commensurate with not
> being too ugly.
> Thus
> > I imagine using a bit of epoxy and glass tape to
> make the scarfs in
> > the ply, or perhaps just butt blocks, glued and
> nailed chines,
> simple,
> > open, long seats along the sides and that's about
> it for the
> interior.
> > In a couple of years I'll either throw it away or
> flip it over in
> the
> > backyard and sheath it; as such a project it needs
> to be quick and
> > painless to build. I'm not really planning to
> start it until he's
> > threatning to be done with the Core Sound, so it
> has to be do-able
> in
> > short order.
> >
> > a cat ketch rig using the red sail and the dinghy
> sail, or those two
> > and a jib as a ketch rig. The mainmast is stayed
> anyway, so picking
> > up a cheap jib is no big deal if the design calls
> for a bit more
> sail.
> >
> > centerboard or leeboards and kick up rudder, one
> goes aground at
> times
> > here on the Texas coast. I would think a
> centerboard would fit in a
> > boat this size without too much trouble.
> >
> > pretty. I am inclined more towards some flare in
> the sides and a cb
> > rather than leeboards, but I could swing the other
> way if the design
> > looks nice enough. I'd expect nice rocker and
> sheer lines and a
> > pointy front end. Call me a traditionalist. I
> also think this rig
> > would fit better on a plumb bowed boat of a sort
> of British workboat
> > profile, rather than a fine lined sharpie stern
> profile, for
> example.
> > I'm willing to think about a canoe stern rather
> than a transom if
> the
> > rudder arrangement is simple enough, but I'm
> inclined to a transom
> and
> > simple kick up rudder. Finally, I'm inclined
> towards a reasonable
> > amount of freeboard and actual seats, rather than
> sitting on the
> > bottom of a low sided hull. It's possible I could
> sail this in
> waves,
> > someday.
> >
> > an open boat, and designed to be open, I don't
> just want to leave
> the
> > cabin off something designed to have a lid, I'm
> afeared it will
> twist.
> > My goal here is, aside from the rig, to *not
> experiment*. It's
> hard
> > for me, but I can do it; I'm willing to try to
> figure out how to put
> > the ce in the right place, but that's as far as I
> want to be making
> > stuff up. Perhaps decked back to the mainmast, or
> not, I can
> happily
> > lash in floatation.
> >
> > In my experience these flat bottomed hulls can
> range surprisingly
> from
> > good to awful, and so I'm reluctant to just draw
> myself one. Can
> > anyone recommend such a quick to build 20ish foot
> hull which could
> > hold up 140-160ish ft^2 of sail and which seems to
> have minimized
> the
> > flat-bottom hull vices?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Kevin
>
>
>
>
--- John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
wrote:
I was just looking at his stuff. The skinny stern on
the HC looks funny to me, but I may build a model and
see what I think. Thanks,
Kevin
wrote:
> You might want to look a Michalak's H.C.Skiff.Hi
>
> John T
I was just looking at his stuff. The skinny stern on
the HC looks funny to me, but I may build a model and
see what I think. Thanks,
Kevin
--- adventures_in_astrophotography
<jon@...> wrote:
Thanks, I think that's a good idea. I may make a
1'=1" model of the rig, and then make some model hulls
to try it on.
Kevin
<jon@...> wrote:
> Hi Kevin,Hi
>
> ...snip...
> > In my experience these flat bottomed hulls can
> range surprisingly from
> > good to awful, and so I'm reluctant to just draw
> myself one. Can
> > anyone recommend such a quick to build 20ish foot
> hull which could
> > hold up 140-160ish ft^2 of sail and which seems to
> have minimized the
> > flat-bottom hull vices?
>
> One possibility is to take Bolger's Windsprint
> design and scale it up
> 25% from 16' to 20'. This is very easy to do since
> the side panels are
> straight edged with parallel top and bottom. I once
> did the 25%
> scaling for the panels and molds for this boat in
> about 15 minutes
> during a really boring meeting. I would make the
> bottom 1/2" ply in
> this case, and probably make a centerboard instead
> of the offset
> daggerboard, but in any case this would be a very
> quick to build,
> double-ended, flat-bottomed hull with good rocker to
> the bottom that
> might fit your needs. The plans are available from
> Dynamite Payson
> (http://www.instantboats.com/)or in his book
> "Building the New Instant
> Boats".
>
> There's also Bolger's 20' Zephyr design, but your
> rig might be too much
> canvas for it. Bolger's 19'-6" Single Handed
> Schooner would stand up
> to that sail area if you didn't mind dealing with
> the ballasted
> daggerboard. Your rig could probably also be
> adapted to Bolger's 23'-
> 6" Light Schooner, but you might have to spoil the
> aft cockpit with a
> mast partner for the mizzen. All of the above are
> available from
> Payson. Reuel Parker's "The Sharpie Book" also has
> a few possibilities
> in this size range (http://www.parker-marine.com/),
> but nothing that
> would go together as quickly as a Windsprint.
Thanks, I think that's a good idea. I may make a
1'=1" model of the rig, and then make some model hulls
to try it on.
Kevin
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
about the right size for a mizzen for this boat too.
I rather like the idea of a rig that drops into two
different boats.
Kevin
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill"Why? I still mean to use it on the dinghy, but it's
> <K_S_ONeill@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> I have also a nutshell pram rig,
>
> I would think that this rig would be a waste used as
> a mizzen sail.
about the right size for a mizzen for this boat too.
I rather like the idea of a rig that drops into two
different boats.
Kevin
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill" <K_S_ONeill@...> wrote:
I would think that this rig would be a waste used as a mizzen sail.
Nels
>I have also a nutshell pram rig,
> Hi
I would think that this rig would be a waste used as a mizzen sail.
Nels
Hi Kevin,
...snip...
25% from 16' to 20'. This is very easy to do since the side panels are
straight edged with parallel top and bottom. I once did the 25%
scaling for the panels and molds for this boat in about 15 minutes
during a really boring meeting. I would make the bottom 1/2" ply in
this case, and probably make a centerboard instead of the offset
daggerboard, but in any case this would be a very quick to build,
double-ended, flat-bottomed hull with good rocker to the bottom that
might fit your needs. The plans are available from Dynamite Payson
(http://www.instantboats.com/)or in his book "Building the New Instant
Boats".
There's also Bolger's 20' Zephyr design, but your rig might be too much
canvas for it. Bolger's 19'-6" Single Handed Schooner would stand up
to that sail area if you didn't mind dealing with the ballasted
daggerboard. Your rig could probably also be adapted to Bolger's 23'-
6" Light Schooner, but you might have to spoil the aft cockpit with a
mast partner for the mizzen. All of the above are available from
Payson. Reuel Parker's "The Sharpie Book" also has a few possibilities
in this size range (http://www.parker-marine.com/), but nothing that
would go together as quickly as a Windsprint.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
...snip...
> In my experience these flat bottomed hulls can range surprisingly fromOne possibility is to take Bolger's Windsprint design and scale it up
> good to awful, and so I'm reluctant to just draw myself one. Can
> anyone recommend such a quick to build 20ish foot hull which could
> hold up 140-160ish ft^2 of sail and which seems to have minimized the
> flat-bottom hull vices?
25% from 16' to 20'. This is very easy to do since the side panels are
straight edged with parallel top and bottom. I once did the 25%
scaling for the panels and molds for this boat in about 15 minutes
during a really boring meeting. I would make the bottom 1/2" ply in
this case, and probably make a centerboard instead of the offset
daggerboard, but in any case this would be a very quick to build,
double-ended, flat-bottomed hull with good rocker to the bottom that
might fit your needs. The plans are available from Dynamite Payson
(http://www.instantboats.com/)or in his book "Building the New Instant
Boats".
There's also Bolger's 20' Zephyr design, but your rig might be too much
canvas for it. Bolger's 19'-6" Single Handed Schooner would stand up
to that sail area if you didn't mind dealing with the ballasted
daggerboard. Your rig could probably also be adapted to Bolger's 23'-
6" Light Schooner, but you might have to spoil the aft cockpit with a
mast partner for the mizzen. All of the above are available from
Payson. Reuel Parker's "The Sharpie Book" also has a few possibilities
in this size range (http://www.parker-marine.com/), but nothing that
would go together as quickly as a Windsprint.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
You might want to look a Michalak's H.C.Skiff.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: k_s_oneill
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: [bolger] Looking for a hull design
Hi
I need some advice on picking a flat bottomed hull, and where better
to ask? So:
I have a lug rig, a nice red four sided lug sail of about 87 ft^2
which I took off a plywood dory a few years ago and which has been
sitting in my rafters every since. I have also a nutshell pram rig,
also a standing lug, on a little dinghy; the pram sail is about 54
ft^2. Both of these rigs are more or less complete, and they look
nice next to each other. I have also a buddy, who in the fullness of
time will be finished with a Core Sound 20. I have also a proa, on
which I lavish much time and attention, and which sometimes rewards me
with a whole day of screaming around the bay before something breaks.
So that's me.
Looking into the future, I see, in a while, the Core Sound getting
towards being finished. I see me, to tell the truth, still messing
about with various sail rigs on the proa, some working better than
others. None of them so far has lent itself to reefing, and at
any rate the proa is a poor choice to cruise in company with the Core
Sound, it's too fast, too wet, too little payload, and parts of it
break off at awkward times.
I have a dream, though. I have a dream... The dream is imagined
roughly to be:
a flat bottomed girl of about 20'. I suppose I could do a v bottom,
but simple is best. I could go a bit bigger, 3 sheets of ply gives
one 24', but it seems to me that 20' ought to do what I want. Speed
of building is a big deal here.
plywood construction, simple and fast to build. This is going to be
the fastest, least-epoxy, cheapest paint it and get it on the water
job you've ever heard of, commensurate with not being too ugly. Thus
I imagine using a bit of epoxy and glass tape to make the scarfs in
the ply, or perhaps just butt blocks, glued and nailed chines, simple,
open, long seats along the sides and that's about it for the interior.
In a couple of years I'll either throw it away or flip it over in the
backyard and sheath it; as such a project it needs to be quick and
painless to build. I'm not really planning to start it until he's
threatning to be done with the Core Sound, so it has to be do-able in
short order.
a cat ketch rig using the red sail and the dinghy sail, or those two
and a jib as a ketch rig. The mainmast is stayed anyway, so picking
up a cheap jib is no big deal if the design calls for a bit more sail.
centerboard or leeboards and kick up rudder, one goes aground at times
here on the Texas coast. I would think a centerboard would fit in a
boat this size without too much trouble.
pretty. I am inclined more towards some flare in the sides and a cb
rather than leeboards, but I could swing the other way if the design
looks nice enough. I'd expect nice rocker and sheer lines and a
pointy front end. Call me a traditionalist. I also think this rig
would fit better on a plumb bowed boat of a sort of British workboat
profile, rather than a fine lined sharpie stern profile, for example.
I'm willing to think about a canoe stern rather than a transom if the
rudder arrangement is simple enough, but I'm inclined to a transom and
simple kick up rudder. Finally, I'm inclined towards a reasonable
amount of freeboard and actual seats, rather than sitting on the
bottom of a low sided hull. It's possible I could sail this in waves,
someday.
an open boat, and designed to be open, I don't just want to leave the
cabin off something designed to have a lid, I'm afeared it will twist.
My goal here is, aside from the rig, to *not experiment*. It's hard
for me, but I can do it; I'm willing to try to figure out how to put
the ce in the right place, but that's as far as I want to be making
stuff up. Perhaps decked back to the mainmast, or not, I can happily
lash in floatation.
In my experience these flat bottomed hulls can range surprisingly from
good to awful, and so I'm reluctant to just draw myself one. Can
anyone recommend such a quick to build 20ish foot hull which could
hold up 140-160ish ft^2 of sail and which seems to have minimized the
flat-bottom hull vices?
Thanks
Kevin
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Kevin,
Don't know how helpful this will be, but something occurs to me. You
have described, fairly accurately, a Goat Island Skiff. The GIS was
designed by Australian, Michael Storer. We built one and put it in
the water about a year ago. Very happy with it. However... it is only
15' - 6", and cat-rigged with a balanced lugsail of about 105 sq. ft.
I imagine this design could become a stretched cat ketch of 20+ feet,
but that would take a bit of work by Mr. Storer. He's fairly
accessible, so you could contact him & see if he'd be interested in
creating a larger version.
Good Luck,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"In a rough & rugged rolling sea, all good sailors set to pee"
******************
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill" <K_S_ONeill@...> wrote:
Don't know how helpful this will be, but something occurs to me. You
have described, fairly accurately, a Goat Island Skiff. The GIS was
designed by Australian, Michael Storer. We built one and put it in
the water about a year ago. Very happy with it. However... it is only
15' - 6", and cat-rigged with a balanced lugsail of about 105 sq. ft.
I imagine this design could become a stretched cat ketch of 20+ feet,
but that would take a bit of work by Mr. Storer. He's fairly
accessible, so you could contact him & see if he'd be interested in
creating a larger version.
Good Luck,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"In a rough & rugged rolling sea, all good sailors set to pee"
******************
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill" <K_S_ONeill@...> wrote:
>of
> Hi
>
> I need some advice on picking a flat bottomed hull, and where better
> to ask? So:
>
> I have a lug rig, a nice red four sided lug sail of about 87 ft^2
> which I took off a plywood dory a few years ago and which has been
> sitting in my rafters every since. I have also a nutshell pram rig,
> also a standing lug, on a little dinghy; the pram sail is about 54
> ft^2. Both of these rigs are more or less complete, and they look
> nice next to each other. I have also a buddy, who in the fullness
> time will be finished with a Core Sound 20. I have also a proa, onme
> which I lavish much time and attention, and which sometimes rewards
> with a whole day of screaming around the bay before somethingbreaks.
> So that's me.Core
>
> Looking into the future, I see, in a while, the Core Sound getting
> towards being finished. I see me, to tell the truth, still messing
> about with various sail rigs on the proa, some working better than
> others. None of them so far has lent itself to reefing, and at
> any rate the proa is a poor choice to cruise in company with the
> Sound, it's too fast, too wet, too little payload, and parts of itThus
> break off at awkward times.
>
> I have a dream, though. I have a dream... The dream is imagined
> roughly to be:
>
> a flat bottomed girl of about 20'. I suppose I could do a v bottom,
> but simple is best. I could go a bit bigger, 3 sheets of ply gives
> one 24', but it seems to me that 20' ought to do what I want. Speed
> of building is a big deal here.
>
> plywood construction, simple and fast to build. This is going to be
> the fastest, least-epoxy, cheapest paint it and get it on the water
> job you've ever heard of, commensurate with not being too ugly.
> I imagine using a bit of epoxy and glass tape to make the scarfs insimple,
> the ply, or perhaps just butt blocks, glued and nailed chines,
> open, long seats along the sides and that's about it for theinterior.
> In a couple of years I'll either throw it away or flip it over inthe
> backyard and sheath it; as such a project it needs to be quick andin
> painless to build. I'm not really planning to start it until he's
> threatning to be done with the Core Sound, so it has to be do-able
> short order.sail.
>
> a cat ketch rig using the red sail and the dinghy sail, or those two
> and a jib as a ketch rig. The mainmast is stayed anyway, so picking
> up a cheap jib is no big deal if the design calls for a bit more
>times
> centerboard or leeboards and kick up rudder, one goes aground at
> here on the Texas coast. I would think a centerboard would fit in aexample.
> boat this size without too much trouble.
>
> pretty. I am inclined more towards some flare in the sides and a cb
> rather than leeboards, but I could swing the other way if the design
> looks nice enough. I'd expect nice rocker and sheer lines and a
> pointy front end. Call me a traditionalist. I also think this rig
> would fit better on a plumb bowed boat of a sort of British workboat
> profile, rather than a fine lined sharpie stern profile, for
> I'm willing to think about a canoe stern rather than a transom ifthe
> rudder arrangement is simple enough, but I'm inclined to a transomand
> simple kick up rudder. Finally, I'm inclined towards a reasonablewaves,
> amount of freeboard and actual seats, rather than sitting on the
> bottom of a low sided hull. It's possible I could sail this in
> someday.the
>
> an open boat, and designed to be open, I don't just want to leave
> cabin off something designed to have a lid, I'm afeared it willtwist.
> My goal here is, aside from the rig, to *not experiment*. It'shard
> for me, but I can do it; I'm willing to try to figure out how to puthappily
> the ce in the right place, but that's as far as I want to be making
> stuff up. Perhaps decked back to the mainmast, or not, I can
> lash in floatation.from
>
> In my experience these flat bottomed hulls can range surprisingly
> good to awful, and so I'm reluctant to just draw myself one. Canthe
> anyone recommend such a quick to build 20ish foot hull which could
> hold up 140-160ish ft^2 of sail and which seems to have minimized
> flat-bottom hull vices?
>
> Thanks
>
> Kevin
Hi
I need some advice on picking a flat bottomed hull, and where better
to ask? So:
I have a lug rig, a nice red four sided lug sail of about 87 ft^2
which I took off a plywood dory a few years ago and which has been
sitting in my rafters every since. I have also a nutshell pram rig,
also a standing lug, on a little dinghy; the pram sail is about 54
ft^2. Both of these rigs are more or less complete, and they look
nice next to each other. I have also a buddy, who in the fullness of
time will be finished with a Core Sound 20. I have also a proa, on
which I lavish much time and attention, and which sometimes rewards me
with a whole day of screaming around the bay before something breaks.
So that's me.
Looking into the future, I see, in a while, the Core Sound getting
towards being finished. I see me, to tell the truth, still messing
about with various sail rigs on the proa, some working better than
others. None of them so far has lent itself to reefing, and at
any rate the proa is a poor choice to cruise in company with the Core
Sound, it's too fast, too wet, too little payload, and parts of it
break off at awkward times.
I have a dream, though. I have a dream... The dream is imagined
roughly to be:
a flat bottomed girl of about 20'. I suppose I could do a v bottom,
but simple is best. I could go a bit bigger, 3 sheets of ply gives
one 24', but it seems to me that 20' ought to do what I want. Speed
of building is a big deal here.
plywood construction, simple and fast to build. This is going to be
the fastest, least-epoxy, cheapest paint it and get it on the water
job you've ever heard of, commensurate with not being too ugly. Thus
I imagine using a bit of epoxy and glass tape to make the scarfs in
the ply, or perhaps just butt blocks, glued and nailed chines, simple,
open, long seats along the sides and that's about it for the interior.
In a couple of years I'll either throw it away or flip it over in the
backyard and sheath it; as such a project it needs to be quick and
painless to build. I'm not really planning to start it until he's
threatning to be done with the Core Sound, so it has to be do-able in
short order.
a cat ketch rig using the red sail and the dinghy sail, or those two
and a jib as a ketch rig. The mainmast is stayed anyway, so picking
up a cheap jib is no big deal if the design calls for a bit more sail.
centerboard or leeboards and kick up rudder, one goes aground at times
here on the Texas coast. I would think a centerboard would fit in a
boat this size without too much trouble.
pretty. I am inclined more towards some flare in the sides and a cb
rather than leeboards, but I could swing the other way if the design
looks nice enough. I'd expect nice rocker and sheer lines and a
pointy front end. Call me a traditionalist. I also think this rig
would fit better on a plumb bowed boat of a sort of British workboat
profile, rather than a fine lined sharpie stern profile, for example.
I'm willing to think about a canoe stern rather than a transom if the
rudder arrangement is simple enough, but I'm inclined to a transom and
simple kick up rudder. Finally, I'm inclined towards a reasonable
amount of freeboard and actual seats, rather than sitting on the
bottom of a low sided hull. It's possible I could sail this in waves,
someday.
an open boat, and designed to be open, I don't just want to leave the
cabin off something designed to have a lid, I'm afeared it will twist.
My goal here is, aside from the rig, to *not experiment*. It's hard
for me, but I can do it; I'm willing to try to figure out how to put
the ce in the right place, but that's as far as I want to be making
stuff up. Perhaps decked back to the mainmast, or not, I can happily
lash in floatation.
In my experience these flat bottomed hulls can range surprisingly from
good to awful, and so I'm reluctant to just draw myself one. Can
anyone recommend such a quick to build 20ish foot hull which could
hold up 140-160ish ft^2 of sail and which seems to have minimized the
flat-bottom hull vices?
Thanks
Kevin
I need some advice on picking a flat bottomed hull, and where better
to ask? So:
I have a lug rig, a nice red four sided lug sail of about 87 ft^2
which I took off a plywood dory a few years ago and which has been
sitting in my rafters every since. I have also a nutshell pram rig,
also a standing lug, on a little dinghy; the pram sail is about 54
ft^2. Both of these rigs are more or less complete, and they look
nice next to each other. I have also a buddy, who in the fullness of
time will be finished with a Core Sound 20. I have also a proa, on
which I lavish much time and attention, and which sometimes rewards me
with a whole day of screaming around the bay before something breaks.
So that's me.
Looking into the future, I see, in a while, the Core Sound getting
towards being finished. I see me, to tell the truth, still messing
about with various sail rigs on the proa, some working better than
others. None of them so far has lent itself to reefing, and at
any rate the proa is a poor choice to cruise in company with the Core
Sound, it's too fast, too wet, too little payload, and parts of it
break off at awkward times.
I have a dream, though. I have a dream... The dream is imagined
roughly to be:
a flat bottomed girl of about 20'. I suppose I could do a v bottom,
but simple is best. I could go a bit bigger, 3 sheets of ply gives
one 24', but it seems to me that 20' ought to do what I want. Speed
of building is a big deal here.
plywood construction, simple and fast to build. This is going to be
the fastest, least-epoxy, cheapest paint it and get it on the water
job you've ever heard of, commensurate with not being too ugly. Thus
I imagine using a bit of epoxy and glass tape to make the scarfs in
the ply, or perhaps just butt blocks, glued and nailed chines, simple,
open, long seats along the sides and that's about it for the interior.
In a couple of years I'll either throw it away or flip it over in the
backyard and sheath it; as such a project it needs to be quick and
painless to build. I'm not really planning to start it until he's
threatning to be done with the Core Sound, so it has to be do-able in
short order.
a cat ketch rig using the red sail and the dinghy sail, or those two
and a jib as a ketch rig. The mainmast is stayed anyway, so picking
up a cheap jib is no big deal if the design calls for a bit more sail.
centerboard or leeboards and kick up rudder, one goes aground at times
here on the Texas coast. I would think a centerboard would fit in a
boat this size without too much trouble.
pretty. I am inclined more towards some flare in the sides and a cb
rather than leeboards, but I could swing the other way if the design
looks nice enough. I'd expect nice rocker and sheer lines and a
pointy front end. Call me a traditionalist. I also think this rig
would fit better on a plumb bowed boat of a sort of British workboat
profile, rather than a fine lined sharpie stern profile, for example.
I'm willing to think about a canoe stern rather than a transom if the
rudder arrangement is simple enough, but I'm inclined to a transom and
simple kick up rudder. Finally, I'm inclined towards a reasonable
amount of freeboard and actual seats, rather than sitting on the
bottom of a low sided hull. It's possible I could sail this in waves,
someday.
an open boat, and designed to be open, I don't just want to leave the
cabin off something designed to have a lid, I'm afeared it will twist.
My goal here is, aside from the rig, to *not experiment*. It's hard
for me, but I can do it; I'm willing to try to figure out how to put
the ce in the right place, but that's as far as I want to be making
stuff up. Perhaps decked back to the mainmast, or not, I can happily
lash in floatation.
In my experience these flat bottomed hulls can range surprisingly from
good to awful, and so I'm reluctant to just draw myself one. Can
anyone recommend such a quick to build 20ish foot hull which could
hold up 140-160ish ft^2 of sail and which seems to have minimized the
flat-bottom hull vices?
Thanks
Kevin