Re: [bolger] Re: Topaz webcam
I haven't use the stuff in several years, but I always mixed small amounts when I did use it. It's expensive and small pours won't waste it if a batch is more than needed. I never used System Three, I just bought the generic stuff sold by Fiberglass Hawaii.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
On Wed, 17 May 2006 12:56:36 -0000, adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
> Hi Kenneth,
>
>> I've never seen two-part pomyurethane foam get anywhere near as hot
>> as 200 degrees. In fact I don't recall feeling any excess head from
>> it at all when I've used it. What kind of foam are you using that
>> generates all this heat?
>
> What brand do you use in which the chemical reaction is not
> exothermic? The System Three two-part stuff I used definitely gets
> warm when it kicks off, just like epoxy. If you get it poured before
> it starts to kick, however, or only mix very small batches, you would
> probably never notice the heat. Ideally, this would be the case. I
> noticed the heat because I mixed too much to get down a 1/2" hole
> before it kicked off.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
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> I've never seen two-part pomyurethane foam get anywhere near as hot as 200 degrees. In fact I don't recall feeling any excess head from it at all when I've used it. What kind of foam are you using that generates all this heat?I bought mine from Raka, and I noticed the heat because I was using
> Kenneth Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
paper cones to handle the stuff, and on second though 200 is an
exageration, but it was hot to the touch, perhaps 150. The cans are
in the garbage, to the exact type I don't know, it has a yellow color,
closed cell and is rigid.
Hi Kenneth,
exothermic? The System Three two-part stuff I used definitely gets
warm when it kicks off, just like epoxy. If you get it poured before
it starts to kick, however, or only mix very small batches, you would
probably never notice the heat. Ideally, this would be the case. I
noticed the heat because I mixed too much to get down a 1/2" hole
before it kicked off.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> I've never seen two-part pomyurethane foam get anywhere near as hotWhat brand do you use in which the chemical reaction is not
> as 200 degrees. In fact I don't recall feeling any excess head from
> it at all when I've used it. What kind of foam are you using that
> generates all this heat?
exothermic? The System Three two-part stuff I used definitely gets
warm when it kicks off, just like epoxy. If you get it poured before
it starts to kick, however, or only mix very small batches, you would
probably never notice the heat. Ideally, this would be the case. I
noticed the heat because I mixed too much to get down a 1/2" hole
before it kicked off.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Hi Bruce,
I've never seen two-part pomyurethane foam get anywhere near as hot as 200 degrees. In fact I don't recall feeling any excess head from it at all when I've used it. What kind of foam are you using that generates all this heat?
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
I've never seen two-part pomyurethane foam get anywhere near as hot as 200 degrees. In fact I don't recall feeling any excess head from it at all when I've used it. What kind of foam are you using that generates all this heat?
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
On Tue, 16 May 2006 07:44:20 -0700, Bruce Hallman wrote:
> On 5/16/06, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
>> Some may remember my rant about pouring 2 part foam in my Lily in the
>> fall, and the next spring when it warmed up in the sun, it expanded
>> further and broke seams around the top decks. These were crowned in half
>> inch ply so it might not have taken a lot more upward pressure to lift
>> them. Clyde
>
> I have heard enough reports to believe that an expansion problem can
> burst chambers, but the thermal expansion of foam hypothesis makes me
> wonder just how? Considering that the chemical expansion process
> causes the foam to heat up to (I am guessing) 200 degrees F. during
> the installation. Even in the hottest of summers, the foam can never
> return to such a high temperature.
>
> Could what be going on actually be: the thermal expansion of the
> plywood, which is restrained by the rigid foam, and the plywood has
> 'no place to go'? Actually, that doesn't make sense either. I wonder
> physically, what is going on.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
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>
>
>
Perhaps a small air vent in the chamber is all that is needed to avoid
pressure buildup?
pressure buildup?
I wasn't aware of any heat when I was putting the foam in, but I was
adding any solid pieces of foam I could find, as the areas in the bow
and stern of Lily are all flotation. I was rushing because I was trying
to get it finished enough to take the small craft fest in St. Michaels,
MD. I thought it was the foam because after I put the ply back down,it
never came up again and it had come up in the first warm spell of
spring. Doing it again, I would at least build a "cooler" in to the back
deck, draining into the motor well. Clyde
Bruce Hallman wrote:
adding any solid pieces of foam I could find, as the areas in the bow
and stern of Lily are all flotation. I was rushing because I was trying
to get it finished enough to take the small craft fest in St. Michaels,
MD. I thought it was the foam because after I put the ply back down,it
never came up again and it had come up in the first warm spell of
spring. Doing it again, I would at least build a "cooler" in to the back
deck, draining into the motor well. Clyde
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>On 5/16/06, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>>Some may remember my rant about pouring 2 part foam in my Lily in the
>>fall, and the next spring when it warmed up in the sun, it expanded
>>further and broke seams around the top decks. These were crowned in half
>>inch ply so it might not have taken a lot more upward pressure to lift
>>them. Clyde
>>
>>
>
>I have heard enough reports to believe that an expansion problem can
>burst chambers, but the thermal expansion of foam hypothesis makes me
>wonder just how? Considering that the chemical expansion process
>causes the foam to heat up to (I am guessing) 200 degrees F. during
>the installation. Even in the hottest of summers, the foam can never
>return to such a high temperature.
>
>Could what be going on actually be: the thermal expansion of the
>plywood, which is restrained by the rigid foam, and the plywood has
>'no place to go'? Actually, that doesn't make sense either. I wonder
>physically, what is going on.
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that expansion may start at say 125 degrees and might last for a year. At 200 degrees it might only expand for an hour but that doesn't mean it can't expand more It just means the expansion slows down so that at 90 degrees it might take 10 years.
Doug
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Topaz webcam
On 5/16/06, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
> Some may remember my rant about pouring 2 part foam in my Lily in the
> fall, and the next spring when it warmed up in the sun, it expanded
> further and broke seams around the top decks. These were crowned in half
> inch ply so it might not have taken a lot more upward pressure to lift
> them. Clyde
I have heard enough reports to believe that an expansion problem can
burst chambers, but the thermal expansion of foam hypothesis makes me
wonder just how? Considering that the chemical expansion process
causes the foam to heat up to (I am guessing) 200 degrees F. during
the installation. Even in the hottest of summers, the foam can never
return to such a high temperature.
Could what be going on actually be: the thermal expansion of the
plywood, which is restrained by the rigid foam, and the plywood has
'no place to go'? Actually, that doesn't make sense either. I wonder
physically, what is going on.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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On 5/16/06, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
burst chambers, but the thermal expansion of foam hypothesis makes me
wonder just how? Considering that the chemical expansion process
causes the foam to heat up to (I am guessing) 200 degrees F. during
the installation. Even in the hottest of summers, the foam can never
return to such a high temperature.
Could what be going on actually be: the thermal expansion of the
plywood, which is restrained by the rigid foam, and the plywood has
'no place to go'? Actually, that doesn't make sense either. I wonder
physically, what is going on.
> Some may remember my rant about pouring 2 part foam in my Lily in theI have heard enough reports to believe that an expansion problem can
> fall, and the next spring when it warmed up in the sun, it expanded
> further and broke seams around the top decks. These were crowned in half
> inch ply so it might not have taken a lot more upward pressure to lift
> them. Clyde
burst chambers, but the thermal expansion of foam hypothesis makes me
wonder just how? Considering that the chemical expansion process
causes the foam to heat up to (I am guessing) 200 degrees F. during
the installation. Even in the hottest of summers, the foam can never
return to such a high temperature.
Could what be going on actually be: the thermal expansion of the
plywood, which is restrained by the rigid foam, and the plywood has
'no place to go'? Actually, that doesn't make sense either. I wonder
physically, what is going on.
Some may remember my rant about pouring 2 part foam in my Lily in the
fall, and the next spring when it warmed up in the sun, it expanded
further and broke seams around the top decks. These were crowned in half
inch ply so it might not have taken a lot more upward pressure to lift
them. Clyde
dventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
fall, and the next spring when it warmed up in the sun, it expanded
further and broke seams around the top decks. These were crowned in half
inch ply so it might not have taken a lot more upward pressure to lift
them. Clyde
dventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
>Hi Bruce,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>>They are scrap pieces of 1/2" conduit, stuck loosely in holes
>>through the bottom so I can inject expanding foam in the
>>forefoot void. I fear, a messy job, soon to be done.
>>
>>
>
>You've probably messed with this stuff before, but a few words of
>caution if you're using the two-part stuff.
>
>
I bought the foam from Raka, and the labels say 'USCG approved' closed
cell foam.
Looking at the stuff, it cures rigid, and seems waterproof.
cell foam.
Looking at the stuff, it cures rigid, and seems waterproof.
> Is your poured foam closed-cell once hardened?
> Garth
Bruce --
Is your poured foam closed-cell once hardened? I seem to recall
someone complaining that their poured foam eventually got waterlogged.
Anyone know of this ever happening?
Garth
(I've been gluing big pieces of 2" grayboard foam up under my
Cormorant cockpit and bow decking lately, just in case of worst-case
scenario swamping)
Is your poured foam closed-cell once hardened? I seem to recall
someone complaining that their poured foam eventually got waterlogged.
Anyone know of this ever happening?
Garth
(I've been gluing big pieces of 2" grayboard foam up under my
Cormorant cockpit and bow decking lately, just in case of worst-case
scenario swamping)
Thanks for the advice, I got through the task with no apparent
problems, but as I cannot see in the forefoot, I may never know. I
did use funnels, attaching a 'single use' paper cone to each of the
1/2" conduit scraps using masking tape. Usually, the goop poured in
fine, but a few times as needed, I rolled the paper cone and squirted
the goop in the hole like cake frosting. I worked in small batches of
about two cups. Also, I filled the forefoot with sealed (but empty)
plastic jugs before pouring in the foam which hopefully served as
compressible bladders to take excess foam expansion force. Mostly my
goal was to get the lower, below waterline, volume filled with foam.
I ran out of foam before I got the high up volume filled. Notable,
Bolger does not call for the forefoot void to be filled with foam, but
after hearing of Sam's trouble, I decided to do it anyway. My fax to
Bolger asking the question went unanswered. Bolger does call for 39
cubic feet of foam elsewhere in the boat, a lot in the stern, to float
the 450+ lbs of motor etc.. The hard foam bought at the lumber yard
is cheaper than the poured foam anyway. I made good progress over the
weekend, working on inside fitout as much as possible before I attach
the sides. [And begin the ''climb in' 'climb out''climb in' 'climb
out' phase of construction.]
problems, but as I cannot see in the forefoot, I may never know. I
did use funnels, attaching a 'single use' paper cone to each of the
1/2" conduit scraps using masking tape. Usually, the goop poured in
fine, but a few times as needed, I rolled the paper cone and squirted
the goop in the hole like cake frosting. I worked in small batches of
about two cups. Also, I filled the forefoot with sealed (but empty)
plastic jugs before pouring in the foam which hopefully served as
compressible bladders to take excess foam expansion force. Mostly my
goal was to get the lower, below waterline, volume filled with foam.
I ran out of foam before I got the high up volume filled. Notable,
Bolger does not call for the forefoot void to be filled with foam, but
after hearing of Sam's trouble, I decided to do it anyway. My fax to
Bolger asking the question went unanswered. Bolger does call for 39
cubic feet of foam elsewhere in the boat, a lot in the stern, to float
the 450+ lbs of motor etc.. The hard foam bought at the lumber yard
is cheaper than the poured foam anyway. I made good progress over the
weekend, working on inside fitout as much as possible before I attach
the sides. [And begin the ''climb in' 'climb out''climb in' 'climb
out' phase of construction.]
On 5/15/06, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>
> > They are scrap pieces of 1/2" conduit, stuck loosely in holes
> > through the bottom so I can inject expanding foam in the
> > forefoot void. I fear, a messy job, soon to be done.
>
> You've probably messed with this stuff before, but a few words of
> caution if you're using the two-part stuff.
>
> I used System Three two- part polyurethane foam to fill the inside of
> 1-1/2" thick x 12" wide x 43" long thwart for FastBrick. It's 1/4"
> ply faces with 1-by framing. I drilled a 1/2" hold in one end, stood
> the panel on end, mixed up a bunch of the stuff, and started pouring
> it in. Several lessons were subsequently learned, all in just a few
> seconds! 1) 1/2" is a small hole, and it takes a long time to pour
> as much as I mixed up into it. The batch started to kick off before
> I got it all in, and I had to stop, wasting a bunch of the goop. 2)
> Enough of the goop stuck to the edge of the hole that I had to drill
> it out again - a funnel might have helped here. 3) The expansion can
> really stress thin-walled material. I had to hustle to get clamps
> and forms on each side of the box to keep the panels from bulging out.
> 4) Definitely use smaller batches.
>
> The second place I used this stuff was to fill the lower bow area of
> Diablo where it would be too deep to reach into from gunwale level (I
> ran the forward bulkhead all the way up to the rail). When the foam
> started expanding, it did so in an unexpected way - it did not form
> any bond with the bulkhead or bilge panel and instead pulled away
> from the plywood while expanding upward. This left gaps along the
> edges that had to be filled in with canned insulation foam from Home
> Depot, and that stuff did stick to the panels, more or less. I may
> have a photo of this that's not on my website. I wound up pouring
> some partially thickened epoxy into the remaining voids, but I'm sure
> I didn't get all the way into every nook and cranny. I'm not sure
> how much volume you have to fill, but this may be a concern. pre-
> coating the panels with epoxy may help, but I don't recall if the
> stuff liked the coated areas any better than the uncoated areas.
> From now on, I'm not counting on poured-in foam to fill all the air
> gaps and will coat everything with epoxy first, to avoid condensation
> soaking into dry plywood.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi Bruce,
caution if you're using the two-part stuff.
I used System Three two- part polyurethane foam to fill the inside of
1-1/2" thick x 12" wide x 43" long thwart for FastBrick. It's 1/4"
ply faces with 1-by framing. I drilled a 1/2" hold in one end, stood
the panel on end, mixed up a bunch of the stuff, and started pouring
it in. Several lessons were subsequently learned, all in just a few
seconds! 1) 1/2" is a small hole, and it takes a long time to pour
as much as I mixed up into it. The batch started to kick off before
I got it all in, and I had to stop, wasting a bunch of the goop. 2)
Enough of the goop stuck to the edge of the hole that I had to drill
it out again - a funnel might have helped here. 3) The expansion can
really stress thin-walled material. I had to hustle to get clamps
and forms on each side of the box to keep the panels from bulging out.
4) Definitely use smaller batches.
The second place I used this stuff was to fill the lower bow area of
Diablo where it would be too deep to reach into from gunwale level (I
ran the forward bulkhead all the way up to the rail). When the foam
started expanding, it did so in an unexpected way - it did not form
any bond with the bulkhead or bilge panel and instead pulled away
from the plywood while expanding upward. This left gaps along the
edges that had to be filled in with canned insulation foam from Home
Depot, and that stuff did stick to the panels, more or less. I may
have a photo of this that's not on my website. I wound up pouring
some partially thickened epoxy into the remaining voids, but I'm sure
I didn't get all the way into every nook and cranny. I'm not sure
how much volume you have to fill, but this may be a concern. pre-
coating the panels with epoxy may help, but I don't recall if the
stuff liked the coated areas any better than the uncoated areas.
From now on, I'm not counting on poured-in foam to fill all the air
gaps and will coat everything with epoxy first, to avoid condensation
soaking into dry plywood.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> They are scrap pieces of 1/2" conduit, stuck loosely in holesYou've probably messed with this stuff before, but a few words of
> through the bottom so I can inject expanding foam in the
> forefoot void. I fear, a messy job, soon to be done.
caution if you're using the two-part stuff.
I used System Three two- part polyurethane foam to fill the inside of
1-1/2" thick x 12" wide x 43" long thwart for FastBrick. It's 1/4"
ply faces with 1-by framing. I drilled a 1/2" hold in one end, stood
the panel on end, mixed up a bunch of the stuff, and started pouring
it in. Several lessons were subsequently learned, all in just a few
seconds! 1) 1/2" is a small hole, and it takes a long time to pour
as much as I mixed up into it. The batch started to kick off before
I got it all in, and I had to stop, wasting a bunch of the goop. 2)
Enough of the goop stuck to the edge of the hole that I had to drill
it out again - a funnel might have helped here. 3) The expansion can
really stress thin-walled material. I had to hustle to get clamps
and forms on each side of the box to keep the panels from bulging out.
4) Definitely use smaller batches.
The second place I used this stuff was to fill the lower bow area of
Diablo where it would be too deep to reach into from gunwale level (I
ran the forward bulkhead all the way up to the rail). When the foam
started expanding, it did so in an unexpected way - it did not form
any bond with the bulkhead or bilge panel and instead pulled away
from the plywood while expanding upward. This left gaps along the
edges that had to be filled in with canned insulation foam from Home
Depot, and that stuff did stick to the panels, more or less. I may
have a photo of this that's not on my website. I wound up pouring
some partially thickened epoxy into the remaining voids, but I'm sure
I didn't get all the way into every nook and cranny. I'm not sure
how much volume you have to fill, but this may be a concern. pre-
coating the panels with epoxy may help, but I don't recall if the
stuff liked the coated areas any better than the uncoated areas.
From now on, I'm not counting on poured-in foam to fill all the air
gaps and will coat everything with epoxy first, to avoid condensation
soaking into dry plywood.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> decking over the lower part? Look like vent pipes.They are scrap pieces of 1/2" conduit, stuck loosely in holes
through the bottom so I can inject expanding foam in the
forefoot void. I fear, a messy job, soon to be done.
> Caught you scratching your head.As you know, building a boat is a long series
figuring things out/head scratching.
Bruce
What are the little vertical thingees sticking up out of the plywood
decking over the lower part? Look like vent pipes.
Caught you scratching your head.
HJ
Bruce Hallman wrote:
What are the little vertical thingees sticking up out of the plywood
decking over the lower part? Look like vent pipes.
Caught you scratching your head.
HJ
Bruce Hallman wrote:
> Watching webcams are about as interesting as watching paint dry, but I
> finally fixed
> the webcam in my shop as I am building a Bolger Topaz Spyder.
>
>http://hallman.org/webcam/
>
Watching webcams are about as interesting as watching paint dry, but I
finally fixed
the webcam in my shop as I am building a Bolger Topaz Spyder.
http://hallman.org/webcam/
finally fixed
the webcam in my shop as I am building a Bolger Topaz Spyder.
http://hallman.org/webcam/