Re: [bolger] Re: Rudder Problems/Request design or help with Gypsy rudder

I made stainless steel fittings for kevlar rope to anchor mines with. The fittings were cones tapered inside and out there was a bail on the big end of the cone that was made of 3/8 insquare stainless bent into a horseshoe shape and welded to the cone. The kevlar rope was put into the cone and the end frayed out. The cone was poured full of epoxy. I saw the pull testing on 10 of these assemblies. The were pulled at 30,000 lbs. the rope stretched from 5/8 in dia to 5/16 in diameter. I had thought the epoxy would fail. It all held together. Then they were pulled until failure, the bails on the fittings failed, they stretched and broke. We took bets on what would fail and I bet the epoxy would shatter inside the cone and lost my five bucks. So any way, under enough strain the kevlar stretches about 100 % . I doubt that on any small boat there is likely to be that kind of pressure even with a fairly small edge hitting the boat at 6 knots. I would think the epoxy would fail that's in the kevlar allowing water to come through. If so there would need to be a way to reseal the fabric after impact. Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Rohrer
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:44 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Rudder Problems/Request design or help with Gypsy rudder

If I understand your description, this is pretty much what I'm trying. I'm building straps to go
around the cheek pieces and blocks and intend to screw them in even though they are tight.
I'm considering running bolts through where I can.

Thanks. Tim

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William " <sdavis@...> wrote:
>
> I had similar problems with the rudder on my gypsy having 2 failures.
> to correct the problem I made the cheek piece from 1/2" ply wood verses
> the plans 1/4" and put small through bolts through the cheek pieces
> and blocks. I used 3/16" by 1" aluminum strap bent into an L bracket
> about 4" long on both the rudder and transom with a 1/4" bronze rod
> through the assembly with 1" on each end threaded with nylon locking
> nuts on each end. since I made these changes, 2 years ago, I have not
> had any trouble with it and I do love to sail her!
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If I understand your description, this is pretty much what I'm trying. I'm building straps to go
around the cheek pieces and blocks and intend to screw them in even though they are tight.
I'm considering running bolts through where I can.

Thanks. Tim

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William " <sdavis@...> wrote:
>
> I had similar problems with the rudder on my gypsy having 2 failures.
> to correct the problem I made the cheek piece from 1/2" ply wood verses
> the plans 1/4" and put small through bolts through the cheek pieces
> and blocks. I used 3/16" by 1" aluminum strap bent into an L bracket
> about 4" long on both the rudder and transom with a 1/4" bronze rod
> through the assembly with 1" on each end threaded with nylon locking
> nuts on each end. since I made these changes, 2 years ago, I have not
> had any trouble with it and I do love to sail her!
>

No, I had not. That is an idea I'll have to keep in mind if I rebuild. Tks.

tim

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> have you seen the Gate Hinges album at Bolger2 photos? Might make a
> quick gudgeon & pintle set.
>
>http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/3695?b=2&m=s&o=0
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rohrer" <tgrohrer@> wrote:
>
> >it is now June and I really want to use the boat this summer...
> > ...buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current
> >rudder
> >
> >or
> >
> > find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support
> >to the rudder.
>

I had similar problems with the rudder on my gypsy having 2 failures.
to correct the problem I made the cheek piece from 1/2" ply wood verses
the plans 1/4" and put small through bolts through the cheek pieces
and blocks. I used 3/16" by 1" aluminum strap bent into an L bracket
about 4" long on both the rudder and transom with a 1/4" bronze rod
through the assembly with 1" on each end threaded with nylon locking
nuts on each end. since I made these changes, 2 years ago, I have not
had any trouble with it and I do love to sail her!

Hi

I've used 1/2" id pvc and 1/2" aluminum rod to make
rudder hinges for a small kayak I wanted to turn into
a sailboat. Rough up the outside of the pvc with 60
grit sandpaper, chop the pvc into 2" sections,
threaded it onto the rod with small washers between
bits to make a little gap. Then clamp the rudder to a
sawhorse or something so it's up against the transom
exactly where you want it to be when you're sailing,
and super glued every other bit of pvc to the rudder,
and every other bit to the boat. You can just stand
there and hold it in place until it dries, about 30
seconds. Now *carefully* pull the pin, take the
rudder to the bench, and epoxy/glass cloth the bits of
pvc to the rudder and the boat. To go sailing you put
the rudder in place and drop the pin in; either put a
cap on the pin or drill a hole in the top for a cotter
pin.

Huh. Re-reading, I'm not sure that's clear. If it's
not let me know and I'll dig up some pictures.

Kevin

--- graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:

> Hi Tim,
>
> have you seen the Gate Hinges album at Bolger2
> photos? Might make a
> quick gudgeon & pintle set.
>
>

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/3695?b=2&m=s&o=0

>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rohrer"
> <tgrohrer@...> wrote:
>
> >it is now June and I really want to use the boat
> this summer...
> > ...buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit
> around the current
> >rudder
> >
> >or
> >
> > find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would
> provide support
> >to the rudder.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Tim,

have you seen the Gate Hinges album at Bolger2 photos? Might make a
quick gudgeon & pintle set.

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/3695?b=2&m=s&o=0

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rohrer" <tgrohrer@...> wrote:

>it is now June and I really want to use the boat this summer...
> ...buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current
>rudder
>
>or
>
> find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support
>to the rudder.

For what it is worth I built a gypsy a few years ago and built the rudder to the design and it worked flawlessly. The pintles that I used enclosed the upper part of the rudder. Screw eyes, IMHO, are insufficient for the forces involved.

Paul

Tim Rohrer <tgrohrer@...> wrote: Hi Everyone. I've been inactive in this group for some time. I finished (Early '04) and then
enclosed a gypsy ('05). I've only sailed her a couple of times. In fact, today was my sea trials
following the enclosing work and redesign of the rudder. I build the rudder that same as the
first one (from Mr. Payson's book), just taller to account for the decking. Before I continue, I
should tell you that I had problems with the first rudder coming apart (too much torque from
the tiller would be my guess). Well, during my first run today in pretty light winds, that
rudder fell apart similar to the first one. The piece that broke this time was the lower block
that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood with brass-ringed nails
and epoxy.

I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a better rudder design they
want to share with me?

Thanks.

Tim

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike:

I have used shoulder eye bolts for gudgeons with plastic caster
sockets to reduce them to 1/4". Could also use them or screw eyes for
rudder fittings with appropriate rod or pipe. Put the transom eyes on
the outside to keep the rudder from coming up. If screw eyes are
required, set them in epoxy glue in a slightly oversized hole.
Probably would be cheaper but I don't know how much.

Joe T

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <skiffsalor2000@...> wrote:
>
> Hello and thanks for the Duckworks.com lead on g & p hardware. I went
> with the Payson brass rod and "hammered out aluminum strap". It works
> but it is a pain to try to get that all put together, especially if
> you are trying to do in a little chop. The headstock on Gypsy is 2-
> 1/4". The light-duty g & P hardware at Boatworks goes up to only 1-
> 1/2", so I guess I am stuck with the brass rod. The heavy-duty g & p
> will work but cost $60.00+. Any ideas?
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William Page <billybouy2@...> wrote:

>
>
> I haven't been following this thread, but I bought a gudgeon &

pindtle set made by RaceLite via Duckworks.com recently and was
pleased with the price, quality and speed of delivery.

>

Hello and thanks for the Duckworks.com lead on g & p hardware. I went
with the Payson brass rod and "hammered out aluminum strap". It works
but it is a pain to try to get that all put together, especially if
you are trying to do in a little chop. The headstock on Gypsy is 2-
1/4". The light-duty g & P hardware at Boatworks goes up to only 1-
1/2", so I guess I am stuck with the brass rod. The heavy-duty g & p
will work but cost $60.00+. Any ideas?

Hello, Tim:

I haven't been following this thread, but I bought a gudgeon & pindtle set made by RaceLite via Duckworks.com recently and was pleased with the price, quality and speed of delivery.

Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN

Tim Rohrer <tgrohrer@...> wrote:
I think, based on what I heard, I should either
buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current rudder (reassembled :) ) or find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support to the rudder. I'm going to go assess the project today so I can get an order in if I do the latter.

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I want to thank everyone who wrote back. To clarify, the parts that were epoxied are the
plywood to the blocks of wood that function as frames (if you will). The pindle and
gudgeons are really four eye-screws and then I use a bar to connect the rudder to the
boat.

I would rather not spend the time to redesign and build a rudder since it is now June and I
really want to use the boat this summer. I think, based on what I heard, I should either
buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current rudder (reassembled :) ) or
find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support to the rudder. I'm going
to go assess the project today so I can get an order in if I do the latter.

Cheers, Tim

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "saillips" <saillips@...> wrote:
>
> The piece that broke this time was the lower block
> > that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood
> with brass-ringed nails
> > and epoxy.
> >
> > I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a
> better rudder design they
> > want to share with me?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> I built my Gypsy in 1987 and sailed it quite hard. The 2 items that
> failed early on were the rudder/head/tiller assembly and the mast
> partner. I found that I had to rebuild the rudder cheeks and
> pintles/gudgeons to beefier scantlings.
> The mast partner, as I remember was a "U" shaped beam screwed and
> glued to the gunwales. After mine tore out one day resulting in a
> paddle home, I trimmed it to fit upside down between the gunwales,
> screwed and glued a 1/4 bulkhead (made to fit inside the hull at that
> location) to it and re-installed it, filleting the bulkhead to the hull.
> Keep in mind that when it blows she likes to heel over and lock in on
> the chine. Then she 'll really move. Two people on the rail when it's
> blowing is great...until the mast partner tears out. I was often up on
> the high side hiking out, which is why "next time" I'll install side
> decks so my thighs don't get bruised and beaten.
> Her demise was land-based: a pick-up truck with a bed load of plywood
> crushed it.
>

Hi David

Yes, the GIS rudder design does seem very simple Can't see why it
wouldn't work well??

Greg

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Greg & Joe,
>
> As I said, I've yet to build/test one, but no, it's not supposed to
> break or get damaged on impact. The flex in the shock cord allows it
> to pivot when struck. Also, Storer calls for the central staves of
the
> blade to be Western Red Cedar (presumably for light weight), but the
> front & rear staves out of something tougher (for impact
resistance).
> Ours are Ash, but it could be White Oak, Ipe, Iroko, etc. The whole
> rudder blade is then glassed & epoxied. Then comes either varnish or
> paint. I think it'll be paint for us - certainly on the PDR, and
> likely on the Goat Island Skiff. So... it'll retract vertically
like a
> dagger board. Or, if you're a forgetful old coot like myself (and
> Joe?) you can - if all else fails - allow the Ash & shock cord to do
> their job.
>
> Cheers,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
> "You Know You're Old When: your sweetie suggests going upstairs to
> messaround and you tell her to pick one, you can't do both"
>
> ****************
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Joe
> >
> > Yes, I guess that would be the scare, although the way they say
it
> > works it would not actually break anything, perhaps!
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Greg:
> > >
> > > It works just like a daggerboard, sliding straight up, not
pivoting
> > > which I prefer. I'm prone to forget and would rip something off
on a
> > > hard beach landing.
> > > The link to the Photo is at:
> > > http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
> > 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
> > > Don't know why your link didn't work. Hope mine does.
> > >
> > > Joe T
> > >
> > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, there's one for sale on the Duck Flat Site and there's
at
> > > > least one photo that shows the rudder stock with the cheeks
that
> > > > David describes:
> > > >
> > > > Here's the link(I
> > hope) :http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
> > > > 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Greg F
> > > >
> > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@>
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > > Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please
give a
> > > > link
> > > > > to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Joe T
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The interesting thing is that he has the
> > > > > > rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between
the
> > > > cheeks and
> > > > > > is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is
> > attached
> > > > to both
> > > > > > cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via
> > > > friction.
> > > > > > The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the
blade
> > > > firmly
> > > > > > enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something,
> > there's
> > > > > > enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up.
> > When
> > > > you're
> > > > > > coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight
up
> > > > > > (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without
interference
> > > > from (or
> > > > > > damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a
> > friends
> > > > > > kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google
> > Michael
> > > > Storer
> > > > > > Boat Design.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good Luck,
> > > > > > David Graybeal
> > > > > > Portland, OR
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Greg & Joe,

As I said, I've yet to build/test one, but no, it's not supposed to
break or get damaged on impact. The flex in the shock cord allows it
to pivot when struck. Also, Storer calls for the central staves of the
blade to be Western Red Cedar (presumably for light weight), but the
front & rear staves out of something tougher (for impact resistance).
Ours are Ash, but it could be White Oak, Ipe, Iroko, etc. The whole
rudder blade is then glassed & epoxied. Then comes either varnish or
paint. I think it'll be paint for us - certainly on the PDR, and
likely on the Goat Island Skiff. So... it'll retract vertically like a
dagger board. Or, if you're a forgetful old coot like myself (and
Joe?) you can - if all else fails - allow the Ash & shock cord to do
their job.

Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR

"You Know You're Old When: your sweetie suggests going upstairs to
messaround and you tell her to pick one, you can't do both"

****************

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Joe
>
> Yes, I guess that would be the scare, although the way they say it
> works it would not actually break anything, perhaps!
>
> Greg

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Joe
>
> Yes, I guess that would be the scare, although the way they say it
> works it would not actually break anything, perhaps!
>
> Greg
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> >
> > Greg:
> >
> > It works just like a daggerboard, sliding straight up, not pivoting
> > which I prefer. I'm prone to forget and would rip something off on a
> > hard beach landing.
> > The link to the Photo is at:
> > http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
> 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
> > Don't know why your link didn't work. Hope mine does.
> >
> > Joe T
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, there's one for sale on the Duck Flat Site and there's at
> > > least one photo that shows the rudder stock with the cheeks that
> > > David describes:
> > >
> > > Here's the link(I
> hope) :http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
> > > 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > Greg F
> > >
> > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please give a
> > > link
> > > > to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Joe T
> > > >
> > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The interesting thing is that he has the
> > > > > rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between the
> > > cheeks and
> > > > > is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is
> attached
> > > to both
> > > > > cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via
> > > friction.
> > > > > The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the blade
> > > firmly
> > > > > enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something,
> there's
> > > > > enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up.
> When
> > > you're
> > > > > coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight up
> > > > > (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without interference
> > > from (or
> > > > > damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a
> friends
> > > > > kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google
> Michael
> > > Storer
> > > > > Boat Design.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good Luck,
> > > > > David Graybeal
> > > > > Portland, OR
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Speaking of rudders...I wonder what y'all think of the barndoor
rudder that a guy devised for his Weekender??

- link:http://byyb.org/gaffrig/ond05/article%20scott%20widmier.htm

Greg F

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> David
>
> Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please give a
link
> to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.
>
> Thanks, Joe T
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
>
> > The interesting thing is that he has the
> > rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between the
cheeks and
> > is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is attached
to both
> > cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via
friction.
> > The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the blade
firmly
> > enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something, there's
> > enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up. When
you're
> > coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight up
> > (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without interference
from (or
> > damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a friends
> > kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
> >
> > Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google Michael
Storer
> > Boat Design.
> >
> > Good Luck,
> > David Graybeal
> > Portland, OR
> >
>

Hi Joe

Yes, I guess that would be the scare, although the way they say it
works it would not actually break anything, perhaps!

Greg

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> Greg:
>
> It works just like a daggerboard, sliding straight up, not pivoting
> which I prefer. I'm prone to forget and would rip something off on a
> hard beach landing.
> The link to the Photo is at:
> http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
> Don't know why your link didn't work. Hope mine does.
>
> Joe T
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Well, there's one for sale on the Duck Flat Site and there's at
> > least one photo that shows the rudder stock with the cheeks that
> > David describes:
> >
> > Here's the link(I
hope) :http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
> > 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
> >
> >
> > Greg F
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please give a
> > link
> > > to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Joe T
> > >
> > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The interesting thing is that he has the
> > > > rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between the
> > cheeks and
> > > > is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is
attached
> > to both
> > > > cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via
> > friction.
> > > > The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the blade
> > firmly
> > > > enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something,
there's
> > > > enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up.
When
> > you're
> > > > coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight up
> > > > (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without interference
> > from (or
> > > > damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a
friends
> > > > kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
> > > >
> > > > Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google
Michael
> > Storer
> > > > Boat Design.
> > > >
> > > > Good Luck,
> > > > David Graybeal
> > > > Portland, OR
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Greg:

It works just like a daggerboard, sliding straight up, not pivoting
which I prefer. I'm prone to forget and would rip something off on a
hard beach landing.
The link to the Photo is at:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
Don't know why your link didn't work. Hope mine does.

Joe T

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Well, there's one for sale on the Duck Flat Site and there's at
> least one photo that shows the rudder stock with the cheeks that
> David describes:
>
> Here's the link(I hope) :http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
> 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
>
>
> Greg F
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> >
> > David
> >
> > Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please give a
> link
> > to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.
> >
> > Thanks, Joe T
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> >
> > > The interesting thing is that he has the
> > > rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between the
> cheeks and
> > > is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is attached
> to both
> > > cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via
> friction.
> > > The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the blade
> firmly
> > > enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something, there's
> > > enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up. When
> you're
> > > coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight up
> > > (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without interference
> from (or
> > > damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a friends
> > > kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
> > >
> > > Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google Michael
> Storer
> > > Boat Design.
> > >
> > > Good Luck,
> > > David Graybeal
> > > Portland, OR
> > >
> >
>

Well, there's one for sale on the Duck Flat Site and there's at
least one photo that shows the rudder stock with the cheeks that
David describes:

Here's the link(I hope) :http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg

Greg F

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> David
>
> Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please give a
link
> to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.
>
> Thanks, Joe T
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
>
> > The interesting thing is that he has the
> > rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between the
cheeks and
> > is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is attached
to both
> > cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via
friction.
> > The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the blade
firmly
> > enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something, there's
> > enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up. When
you're
> > coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight up
> > (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without interference
from (or
> > damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a friends
> > kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
> >
> > Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google Michael
Storer
> > Boat Design.
> >
> > Good Luck,
> > David Graybeal
> > Portland, OR
> >
>

David

Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please give a link
to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.

Thanks, Joe T

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:

> The interesting thing is that he has the
> rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between the cheeks and
> is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is attached to both
> cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via friction.
> The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the blade firmly
> enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something, there's
> enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up. When you're
> coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight up
> (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without interference from (or
> damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a friends
> kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
>
> Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google Michael Storer
> Boat Design.
>
> Good Luck,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>

The piece that broke this time was the lower block

> that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood

with brass-ringed nails

> and epoxy.
>
> I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a

better rudder design they

> want to share with me?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>

I built my Gypsy in 1987 and sailed it quite hard. The 2 items that
failed early on were the rudder/head/tiller assembly and the mast
partner. I found that I had to rebuild the rudder cheeks and
pintles/gudgeons to beefier scantlings.
The mast partner, as I remember was a "U" shaped beam screwed and
glued to the gunwales. After mine tore out one day resulting in a
paddle home, I trimmed it to fit upside down between the gunwales,
screwed and glued a 1/4 bulkhead (made to fit inside the hull at that
location) to it and re-installed it, filleting the bulkhead to the hull.
Keep in mind that when it blows she likes to heel over and lock in on
the chine. Then she 'll really move. Two people on the rail when it's
blowing is great...until the mast partner tears out. I was often up on
the high side hiking out, which is why "next time" I'll install side
decks so my thighs don't get bruised and beaten.
Her demise was land-based: a pick-up truck with a bed load of plywood
crushed it.

Tim,

We've recently started a Puddle Duck Racer (PDR), and are completing
the sailing rig for a Goat Island Skiff (GIS). We actually considered
a Gypsy for a while. Decided it wasn't quite large enough for our
needs, but she seems like a very fun boat.

I really like the simplicity of the rudder Michael Storer designed for
the GIS. I'll also be using it on the PDR. He has the tiller attached
permanently (bolted) to the rudder cheeks, and the cheecks seperated
with spacers (approx. the thickness of the rudder blade). This
tiller/cheek assembly is connected to the hull with pintles &
gudgeons, as is typical. The interesting thing is that he has the
rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between the cheeks and
is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is attached to both
cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via friction.
The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the blade firmly
enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something, there's
enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up. When you're
coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight up
(vertically) to allow your boat to beach without interference from (or
damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a friends
kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.

Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google Michael Storer
Boat Design.

Good Luck,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR

"It may be well to emphasize again, the fact that 'good construction'
is not adherence to a narrow selection of material & building methods;
it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best suited to the
boats model & to the pocketbook, with the realistic view of the
requirements of its use & life that are to be expected" -- Howard Chapelle

******************8

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rohrer" <tgrohrer@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone. I've been inactive in this group for some time. I
finished (Early '04) and then
> enclosed a gypsy ('05). I've only sailed her a couple of times. In
fact, today was my sea trials
> following the enclosing work and redesign of the rudder. I build
the rudder that same as the
> first one (from Mr. Payson's book), just taller to account for the
decking. Before I continue, I
> should tell you that I had problems with the first rudder coming
apart (too much torque from
> the tiller would be my guess). Well, during my first run today in
pretty light winds, that
> rudder fell apart similar to the first one. The piece that broke
this time was the lower block
> that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood
with brass-ringed nails
> and epoxy.
>
> I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a
better rudder design they
> want to share with me?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>

I'm confused by your description. To me, the pintle is the part with the
pin (seehttp://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/p-g/index.htm)and is usually
bolted to the rudder on small boats with transom hung rudders. The gudgeon
is the socket for the pintle's pin.

As you've discovered, this is a high load area, and epoxy doesn't bond metal
well (if that's what you implied). I'd suggest through-bolting the metal
bits to both the rudder and the transom, preferably with a backing block on
the transom to spread the load.

If it's the rudder itself that's splitting, well, I've broken two on the
Sunfish (rudder splits along the grain from torque). My latest fix has
cheek blocks on each side of the rudder head with fiberglassed epoxy over
the whole top. Again, it's a high stress area, particularly when the rudder
bottom is in a mud bank.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Rohrer" <tgrohrer@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 5:20 PM
Subject: [bolger] Rudder Problems/Request design or help with Gypsy rudder

> Hi Everyone. I've been inactive in this group for some time. I finished
> (Early '04) and then
> enclosed a gypsy ('05). I've only sailed her a couple of times. In fact,
> today was my sea trials
> following the enclosing work and redesign of the rudder. I build the
> rudder that same as the
> first one (from Mr. Payson's book), just taller to account for the
> decking. Before I continue, I
> should tell you that I had problems with the first rudder coming apart
> (too much torque from
> the tiller would be my guess). Well, during my first run today in pretty
> light winds, that
> rudder fell apart similar to the first one. The piece that broke this
> time was the lower block
> that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood with
> brass-ringed nails
> and epoxy.
>
> I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a better
> rudder design they
> want to share with me?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Everyone. I've been inactive in this group for some time. I finished (Early '04) and then
enclosed a gypsy ('05). I've only sailed her a couple of times. In fact, today was my sea trials
following the enclosing work and redesign of the rudder. I build the rudder that same as the
first one (from Mr. Payson's book), just taller to account for the decking. Before I continue, I
should tell you that I had problems with the first rudder coming apart (too much torque from
the tiller would be my guess). Well, during my first run today in pretty light winds, that
rudder fell apart similar to the first one. The piece that broke this time was the lower block
that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood with brass-ringed nails
and epoxy.

I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a better rudder design they
want to share with me?

Thanks.

Tim