Re: Anyone Designed/Built A Stretched "Fast Motorsailer"
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@...> wrote:
stretched one proposed by Don Shulz. 90 HP Honda required to plane it
which is a lot less than any production boat with that much room
inside.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Retriever%20Cruiser%
20No.%20631/
Nels
>and
> Hi Folks
>
> Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
> year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
> the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" FastDid anyone mention Retriever? There is an upgraded ersion as well as a
> Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
>
stretched one proposed by Don Shulz. 90 HP Honda required to plane it
which is a lot less than any production boat with that much room
inside.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Retriever%20Cruiser%
20No.%20631/
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@...> wrote:
liveaboard coastal cruiser. If I remember correctly, FMS was designed around a fairly large
outboard (50 hp) which would be very expensive to feed at todays prices if you really
wanted to go long distances and/or cruise much of the time. If you're planning to mostly
stay at the marina, and just make occasional jaunts here and there, then of course that
changes things.
What exactly are your requirements in terms of accommodations, amenities, performance
and cost? Why 28'-30'? Slip size? Shop size? Except for slip fees, length can be
deceiving in terms of cost and/or difficulty to build. My 16' Yellow Leaf canoe went to
gether faster and more easily than my 8' Brick, and was cheaper, to give a silly example.
I have all of Bolger's books, and lots more besides, and might be able to make a few
suggestions if I understood better what you wanted.
Cheers,
Matthew
>I think there are probably a lot of designs, Bolger and others, better suited to the role of a
> Hi Folks
>
> Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
> year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada and
> the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
> Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
>
liveaboard coastal cruiser. If I remember correctly, FMS was designed around a fairly large
outboard (50 hp) which would be very expensive to feed at todays prices if you really
wanted to go long distances and/or cruise much of the time. If you're planning to mostly
stay at the marina, and just make occasional jaunts here and there, then of course that
changes things.
What exactly are your requirements in terms of accommodations, amenities, performance
and cost? Why 28'-30'? Slip size? Shop size? Except for slip fees, length can be
deceiving in terms of cost and/or difficulty to build. My 16' Yellow Leaf canoe went to
gether faster and more easily than my 8' Brick, and was cheaper, to give a silly example.
I have all of Bolger's books, and lots more besides, and might be able to make a few
suggestions if I understood better what you wanted.
Cheers,
Matthew
In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:34:00 PM Central Daylight Time,
graeme19121984@...writes:
A sketch would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
my mind's eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
available. I don't quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
straight enough on the starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
flooded stability, but perhaps it can all get away overboard quickly
without impediment.
Graeme
There would be a foot well/bottom of the hull area about 4 feet long and
2.5 feet wide on the starboard side which would be between the rear seat on the
starboard side and the front/bow seat on the starboad side.
If the space under the rear seat is not used, again your legs can stick
under it and a body might fit laying down in foot well. But what would probably
make more sense are some boards/planels that you lay across the footwell,
thereby providing a flush raised deck that spans across the front starboard seat
to the rear starboard seat.
So the area under the aft starboard seat would probably be for storage.
Again, the sleeping length is 7 feet give or take. The bow area of the this
sleeping deck would be the narrow end, so you would most likely want to sleep
with you head at the aft end.
Another advantage of this layout, is if the outside sleeper needs shelter,
"all" you have to do is run a tent/tarp from the cabin wall to the hull wall,
so you are basically running a roof between 2 decently tall rigid structures,
making the "tent" much more secure, and fairly simple. And I would think
having "real" walls on a tent would go a long way towards reducing the typical
tent problem of water seeping in from the sides.
You might even be able to engineer thin solid panels that either store
on/under the cabin roof or on cabin floor or in/on the cabin wall that span from
the cabin wall to the hull to make your outside sleeping area. You might even
be able to make it so they are attached to the cabin with hinges say and you
just flip them over/up and bang, you gottcha yourself another little cabin.
I think you could work it out so that a porta potty would store under the
foward starboard seat. Not sure weather you would want it to stay under the
seat and you just lift a lid to use it....or maybe it slides into the cockpit
area to use....or maybe it slides out towards the port side to be used inside
the cabin.
This would certainly be an odd looking boat....and oldshoe is a bit odd
looking to start with..but I fell in love with that design instantly and I still
think its my favorite.
It does give up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original oldshoe
for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can still be "topside". It
does have the advantage of having a cabin/area that you can securely put one or
two little kids in, or an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults.
You could probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare minimum.
I sketched this out only knowing oldshoe's length and beam and eyeballing
the width of the blunt bow, the width of the stern, and guessing at what the
curve that defines the hull sides is like. I also guesstimated how much space
the transom/motor well needs and the bow anchor well also. Its hard for me to
guage how usefull/big/small the seats/footwells/cabin are, but I did run
around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and laying in closets and under
funiture etc etc...
Again, in some respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but it looks to
me that it would be a great daysailer that at a minimum can sail 2 adults
easily, with a cabin for at least one adult to duck into in bad weather (around
here on the northern gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly
predictable except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".
Since if I were using it thats how it would be used I think it would be a
better match for me that oldshoe original.
My orginal sketch is terrible in that I kept drawing new lines over the old
ones as I shifted things around, so I will have to redo it with what I think
is the "best" layout.
Also, my computer and myself do not get along very well at all with yahoo
for some strange reason, so someone here needs to give me their email so that I
can email directly a scanned copy of the sketch and they can post it in the
photo section.
Also, what file format and resolution/file size would be the most
appropriate? If different folks need different ones I would be happy to provide them.
What would this boat be called? Newshoe of course :)
Well, enough for now
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
graeme19121984@...writes:
A sketch would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
my mind's eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
available. I don't quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
straight enough on the starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
flooded stability, but perhaps it can all get away overboard quickly
without impediment.
Graeme
There would be a foot well/bottom of the hull area about 4 feet long and
2.5 feet wide on the starboard side which would be between the rear seat on the
starboard side and the front/bow seat on the starboad side.
If the space under the rear seat is not used, again your legs can stick
under it and a body might fit laying down in foot well. But what would probably
make more sense are some boards/planels that you lay across the footwell,
thereby providing a flush raised deck that spans across the front starboard seat
to the rear starboard seat.
So the area under the aft starboard seat would probably be for storage.
Again, the sleeping length is 7 feet give or take. The bow area of the this
sleeping deck would be the narrow end, so you would most likely want to sleep
with you head at the aft end.
Another advantage of this layout, is if the outside sleeper needs shelter,
"all" you have to do is run a tent/tarp from the cabin wall to the hull wall,
so you are basically running a roof between 2 decently tall rigid structures,
making the "tent" much more secure, and fairly simple. And I would think
having "real" walls on a tent would go a long way towards reducing the typical
tent problem of water seeping in from the sides.
You might even be able to engineer thin solid panels that either store
on/under the cabin roof or on cabin floor or in/on the cabin wall that span from
the cabin wall to the hull to make your outside sleeping area. You might even
be able to make it so they are attached to the cabin with hinges say and you
just flip them over/up and bang, you gottcha yourself another little cabin.
I think you could work it out so that a porta potty would store under the
foward starboard seat. Not sure weather you would want it to stay under the
seat and you just lift a lid to use it....or maybe it slides into the cockpit
area to use....or maybe it slides out towards the port side to be used inside
the cabin.
This would certainly be an odd looking boat....and oldshoe is a bit odd
looking to start with..but I fell in love with that design instantly and I still
think its my favorite.
It does give up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original oldshoe
for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can still be "topside". It
does have the advantage of having a cabin/area that you can securely put one or
two little kids in, or an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults.
You could probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare minimum.
I sketched this out only knowing oldshoe's length and beam and eyeballing
the width of the blunt bow, the width of the stern, and guessing at what the
curve that defines the hull sides is like. I also guesstimated how much space
the transom/motor well needs and the bow anchor well also. Its hard for me to
guage how usefull/big/small the seats/footwells/cabin are, but I did run
around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and laying in closets and under
funiture etc etc...
Again, in some respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but it looks to
me that it would be a great daysailer that at a minimum can sail 2 adults
easily, with a cabin for at least one adult to duck into in bad weather (around
here on the northern gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly
predictable except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".
Since if I were using it thats how it would be used I think it would be a
better match for me that oldshoe original.
My orginal sketch is terrible in that I kept drawing new lines over the old
ones as I shifted things around, so I will have to redo it with what I think
is the "best" layout.
Also, my computer and myself do not get along very well at all with yahoo
for some strange reason, so someone here needs to give me their email so that I
can email directly a scanned copy of the sketch and they can post it in the
photo section.
Also, what file format and resolution/file size would be the most
appropriate? If different folks need different ones I would be happy to provide them.
What would this boat be called? Newshoe of course :)
Well, enough for now
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The original FMS is pictured in "Boats with an Open Mind". It is a Diablo
family hull, and a 26 footer, however the 22' FMS has a roomier, more useful
cabin. The biggest Diablo family hull I've seen is Samuel Clyde, a 31'
boat, also in "Boats with an Open Mind". Sam' Clyde has what I think is an
excellent cabin, but is designed for an I/O powerplant with no sail rig.
Here is a link to some boats built by Bill McKibben. Bill has modified his
prototype FMS I to look much like Sam' Clyde.
http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/mckib/Page.html
You could consider stretching the FMS 8'. It may be feasible given the
simple slab sided design of the FMS, but you would be on your own
accomplishing the task. Getting the mast positioned correctly to get the
thing to sail well is just part of the the changes. Being sure what you've
done is structurally up to sail and power stresses is another.
Don Schultz
family hull, and a 26 footer, however the 22' FMS has a roomier, more useful
cabin. The biggest Diablo family hull I've seen is Samuel Clyde, a 31'
boat, also in "Boats with an Open Mind". Sam' Clyde has what I think is an
excellent cabin, but is designed for an I/O powerplant with no sail rig.
Here is a link to some boats built by Bill McKibben. Bill has modified his
prototype FMS I to look much like Sam' Clyde.
http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/mckib/Page.html
You could consider stretching the FMS 8'. It may be feasible given the
simple slab sided design of the FMS, but you would be on your own
accomplishing the task. Getting the mast positioned correctly to get the
thing to sail well is just part of the the changes. Being sure what you've
done is structurally up to sail and power stresses is another.
Don Schultz
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
my mind's eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
available. I don't quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
straight enough on the starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
flooded stability, but perhaps it can all get away overboard quickly
without impediment.
Graeme
> Did that make any sense or do I need to send in a sketch?A sketch would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
>
my mind's eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
available. I don't quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
straight enough on the starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
flooded stability, but perhaps it can all get away overboard quickly
without impediment.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...>
wrote:
and the Baja. Not having to constantly pay out ever-rising docking
fees would be nice. I will be living solo with occassional week long
visits from kids. I will only need to be very, very fast to get away
from adverse weather or to arrive on time for a hot date ;)
Save the expense of rigging and sail(s) and build a Windermere :-)
Just trying to be helpful....
Sincerely,
Peter "Windermere" Lenihan, from along the shores of the mighty
St.Lawrence...........
wrote:
> The plan is to wander up and down the coast (very close to thecoast!) of Vancouver Island, B.C., Washington, Oregon, California
and the Baja. Not having to constantly pay out ever-rising docking
fees would be nice. I will be living solo with occassional week long
visits from kids. I will only need to be very, very fast to get away
from adverse weather or to arrive on time for a hot date ;)
>sleeping in coffin like conditions.
> I am claustrophobic - need cabin with windows - not interested in
>bed or slide out into double bed?).
> I need:
> a) fixed double size memory foam bed with good windows (drop down
> b) combination office/video editing/dinette/lounging area (dinetteseats could convert into guest sleeping).
> c) the captains quarters :) with radar and iPod.Hi,
> d) usable galley, head and shower.
> e) covered back portch ;)
> f) space to store Vespa?
Save the expense of rigging and sail(s) and build a Windermere :-)
Just trying to be helpful....
Sincerely,
Peter "Windermere" Lenihan, from along the shores of the mighty
St.Lawrence...........
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
Not to be too blunt about it but,yes,your description would
certainly be better served with at least a good sketch or two for
all of us visual types out there :-)
Thanks,
Peter Lenihan
> The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this theimportant/unique? part
>be laying
> It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat
>
> These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would
> down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats inthe rear
> part of the boatboat at a
>
> The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the
> more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or takea bit
>wall of
> Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the
> the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wallthat is along
> the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Itsprobably
> better if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline,getting most of the
> way to the other side as it nears the bow.over the
>
> The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center,
> cabin, as described above. The other is on the other side of theboat and at
> the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way andtouch at
> the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore andone aft, or
> one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard(if they dont
> mind their legs in the same "well")space forward
>
> Assuming the cabin is on the port side, you still have some
> of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third personto sit on
> the starboard side facing aft.seat, you
>
> And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special
> could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin,with their
> head out and above the roof seated near the center of the boatfacing starboard.
>the hull
> Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be
> shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to thehull would have
> to be redesigned.small
>
> Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two
> children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short termshelter decently.
> Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, whichis good since
> two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall,preventing any
> inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!to
>
> Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy
> provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat,without having to
> go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you somethinggood to hang
> on to as you go to the bow.Bill,
>
> Did that make any sense or do I need to send in a sketch?
Not to be too blunt about it but,yes,your description would
certainly be better served with at least a good sketch or two for
all of us visual types out there :-)
Thanks,
Peter Lenihan
In a message dated 5/30/2006 9:04:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
graeme19121984@...writes:
Yes, please tell.
Would it be like the "Squeak" cabin?
Graeme
Don't know about that....
A super quick description...
The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this the important/unique? part
It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat
These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would be laying
down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats in the rear
part of the boat
The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the boat at a
more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or take a bit
Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the wall of
the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wall that is along
the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Its probably
better if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline, getting most of the
way to the other side as it nears the bow.
The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center, over the
cabin, as described above. The other is on the other side of the boat and at
the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way and touch at
the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore and one aft, or
one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard (if they dont
mind their legs in the same "well")
Assuming the cabin is on the port side, you still have some space forward
of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third person to sit on
the starboard side facing aft.
And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special seat, you
could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin, with their
head out and above the roof seated near the center of the boat facing starboard.
Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be the hull
shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to the hull would have
to be redesigned.
Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two small
children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short term shelter decently.
Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, which is good since
two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall, preventing any
inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!
Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy to
provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat, without having to
go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you something good to hang
on to as you go to the bow.
Did that make any sense or do I need to send in a sketch?
You could also apply this layout to the micro...
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
graeme19121984@...writes:
Yes, please tell.
Would it be like the "Squeak" cabin?
Graeme
Don't know about that....
A super quick description...
The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this the important/unique? part
It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat
These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would be laying
down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats in the rear
part of the boat
The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the boat at a
more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or take a bit
Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the wall of
the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wall that is along
the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Its probably
better if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline, getting most of the
way to the other side as it nears the bow.
The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center, over the
cabin, as described above. The other is on the other side of the boat and at
the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way and touch at
the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore and one aft, or
one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard (if they dont
mind their legs in the same "well")
Assuming the cabin is on the port side, you still have some space forward
of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third person to sit on
the starboard side facing aft.
And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special seat, you
could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin, with their
head out and above the roof seated near the center of the boat facing starboard.
Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be the hull
shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to the hull would have
to be redesigned.
Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two small
children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short term shelter decently.
Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, which is good since
two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall, preventing any
inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!
Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy to
provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat, without having to
go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you something good to hang
on to as you go to the bow.
Did that make any sense or do I need to send in a sketch?
You could also apply this layout to the micro...
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
Would it be like the "Squeak" cabin?
Graeme
> As an aside.....there was a thread about a modified oldshoe.....IYes, please tell.
>had an outa the box idea for a one person sleepable permanent cabin
>on it, and the boat could still fit easily2, probably 3, and maybe 4
>people "uptop" easily for daysailing....and two could still sleep on
>it (only one in cabin),
>>
>>
>..anyone like to hear a bit more?
Would it be like the "Squeak" cabin?
Graeme
"Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
cruising speed under power and ability under sail..."
The plan is to wander up and down the coast (very close to the coast!) of Vancouver Island, B.C., Washington, Oregon, California and the Baja. Not having to constantly pay out ever-rising docking fees would be nice. I will be living solo with occassional week long visits from kids. I will only need to be very, very fast to get away from adverse weather or to arrive on time for a hot date ;)
I am claustrophobic - need cabin with windows - not interested in sleeping in coffin like conditions.
I need:
a) fixed double size memory foam bed with good windows (drop down bed or slide out into double bed?).
b) combination office/video editing/dinette/lounging area (dinette seats could convert into guest sleeping).
c) the captains quarters :) with radar and iPod.
d) usable galley, head and shower.
e) covered back portch ;)
f) space to store Vespa?
The boat doesn't have to look nautical - if a "Super Watervan" (32 foot X 10 feet X10 feet) could cope with the coastal ocean conditions - that would be fine for me ;) "The Streak". Actually started to think about that - 11 (2 foot high) engineered floor trusses running longitudinally the length of the "boat"........
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cruising speed under power and ability under sail..."
The plan is to wander up and down the coast (very close to the coast!) of Vancouver Island, B.C., Washington, Oregon, California and the Baja. Not having to constantly pay out ever-rising docking fees would be nice. I will be living solo with occassional week long visits from kids. I will only need to be very, very fast to get away from adverse weather or to arrive on time for a hot date ;)
I am claustrophobic - need cabin with windows - not interested in sleeping in coffin like conditions.
I need:
a) fixed double size memory foam bed with good windows (drop down bed or slide out into double bed?).
b) combination office/video editing/dinette/lounging area (dinette seats could convert into guest sleeping).
c) the captains quarters :) with radar and iPod.
d) usable galley, head and shower.
e) covered back portch ;)
f) space to store Vespa?
The boat doesn't have to look nautical - if a "Super Watervan" (32 foot X 10 feet X10 feet) could cope with the coastal ocean conditions - that would be fine for me ;) "The Streak". Actually started to think about that - 11 (2 foot high) engineered floor trusses running longitudinally the length of the "boat"........
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:01:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
pvanderwaart@...writes:
Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
cruising speed under power and ability under sail...
Peter
Well
As far as that I have no real practical experience so my input would be
rather worthless....plus I am usually an odd duck, so even if I had practical
experience most folks wouldnt like my take at it! :)
I think you mighta taken my "camping" analogy a bit too serious.....not
saying you actually cruise as if you are camping long term....you just approach
it mentally from a hiking/camping perspective...or in other words not "man
this a cramped house" but "boy is a nice big sturdy comfy tent!"
ie going from small to medium as opposed to the mobile house mentality where
you go from big to medium...
As an aside.....there was a thread about a modified oldshoe.....I had an
outa the box idea for a one person sleepable permanent cabin on it, and the boat
could still fit easily2, probably 3, and maybe 4 people "uptop" easily for
daysailing....and two could still sleep on it (only one in cabin), ..anyone
like to hear a bit more?
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pvanderwaart@...writes:
Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
cruising speed under power and ability under sail...
Peter
Well
As far as that I have no real practical experience so my input would be
rather worthless....plus I am usually an odd duck, so even if I had practical
experience most folks wouldnt like my take at it! :)
I think you mighta taken my "camping" analogy a bit too serious.....not
saying you actually cruise as if you are camping long term....you just approach
it mentally from a hiking/camping perspective...or in other words not "man
this a cramped house" but "boy is a nice big sturdy comfy tent!"
ie going from small to medium as opposed to the mobile house mentality where
you go from big to medium...
As an aside.....there was a thread about a modified oldshoe.....I had an
outa the box idea for a one person sleepable permanent cabin on it, and the boat
could still fit easily2, probably 3, and maybe 4 people "uptop" easily for
daysailing....and two could still sleep on it (only one in cabin), ..anyone
like to hear a bit more?
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not to worry, I never take anything personally. Well, hardly ever.
I agree with your logic, but I think that the discipline required to
live with tent-camping limitations for as long as six mongths is rare.
People with boats much larger than you are suggesting live by a 'zero
tolerance' policy for possessions.
Several persons/couples have reported living a Jesse Cooper for
months/years. There are some reasons why this works that I find
instructive. The sleeping area is 100% adequate, and 100% separate
from the kitchen/DR/LR area. I think this is a key, and will only be
found in a special purpose boat in this size range. There is also
headroom in a small area.
Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
cruising speed under power and ability under sail...
Peter
I agree with your logic, but I think that the discipline required to
live with tent-camping limitations for as long as six mongths is rare.
People with boats much larger than you are suggesting live by a 'zero
tolerance' policy for possessions.
Several persons/couples have reported living a Jesse Cooper for
months/years. There are some reasons why this works that I find
instructive. The sleeping area is 100% adequate, and 100% separate
from the kitchen/DR/LR area. I think this is a key, and will only be
found in a special purpose boat in this size range. There is also
headroom in a small area.
Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
cruising speed under power and ability under sail...
Peter
> Hi Peter..wrong
>
> Not "attacking" you personally, but I think IMHO many folks have the
> idea when it comes to cruising.based cruising).
>
> I 've never actually cruised in a boat before, but I have seen this
> mentality in another area and that is the motorhome crowd (land
>mindset that
> and it is this....
>
> Many folks in the cruising (and motorhome) community have this
> their cruising mobile is a small house.of
>
> So what this means usually is that people try to cram a house worths
> stuff in a small space, which IMHO opinion just leads to too muchcrap in to
> small a space. Heck, I think most people have too much stuff intheir HOUSES.
>that
> I think if you are able to paradigm shift (and remember not to double
> clutch!) things might work out better...
>
> Try to think of your boat or motorhome as a nice "large" sturdy tent
> you dont have move yourself and it carries all your CAMPING gear foryou.
>think if
> Of course dont skimp on safety stuff and the true essentials, but I
> you work the problem from this end you'll end up with less stuff,more space
> and be happier...usually
>
> I used to do alot of car camping...ie camping where the tent was
> next to or very short distance from the car...and invariably Istarted bringing
> more and more stuff till it would all barely fit, I couldnt findanything
> without taking out everything, and then at the end it never packedback in as
> well as when I had started.stress levels
>
> I finally learned to really pare down to the essentials and my
> went way down, the workload really decreased, and the enjoyment wentup
> signifcantly.me of
>
> Again, not aimed at you personally, its just you comments reminded
> this train of thought I've had for years.possible (once
>
> And while I'm at it....another pet peeve of sorts...
>
> Take any "small" sailboat (ie about 40 feet or less).
>
> The vast majority of the designs seem to take this approach:
>
> Lets design this thing to sleep the maximum number of people
> a tiny head and galley are put in).that are
>
> And this often seem to lead to a few "secondary" sleeping spaces
> marginal at best and these secondary sleeping spaces eat intovaluable space
> that could be used in the primary sleeping space and/or galley/heador just a
> more open cabin.mediocre
>
> Or in other words the designs have the feature of doing everything
> rather than one thing GOOD.nicely
>
> I'd kinda like to see a design that say sleeps 2 WELL, daysails 4/5
> rather than a design that can sleep 4 poorly when it may well bethat 2 are all
> that usually sleep in it...
>
> I think you get my drift....
>
> take care
>
> Blll
>
I was just reading about Sea Bird '86 in BWAOM today, and I was impressed by Bolger's description of this boat, which he called a "true motorsailer". Hull speed may not satisfy you, but if it does you may want to review Bolger's write-up about Sea Bird '86 because he sure makes it sound like a great boat to me.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
On Tue, 30 May 2006 12:45:13 -0000, pvanderwaart wrote:
> I believe that in his book The Folding Schooner, Bolger printed the
> plans of a boat aboaut 26-28 feet long which is a fast motorsailor
> from before the invention of the term. She's a semi-displacement
> outboard powerboat with a sailing rig. Strip construction.
>
> I would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
> months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
> very light.
>
> Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
> displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.
>
> Peter
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Cermak" <RWCermak@...> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't done that yet but I do have the plans for the FMS and like
>> you, I want to stretch her to about 25'. I'm hoping to start later
>> this year toward the end of the huricane season.
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Folks
>>>
>>> Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
>>> year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
>> and
>>> the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
>>> Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
In a message dated 5/30/2006 7:46:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
pvanderwaart@...writes:
would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
very light.
Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.
Peter
Hi Peter..
Not "attacking" you personally, but I think IMHO many folks have the wrong
idea when it comes to cruising.
I 've never actually cruised in a boat before, but I have seen this
mentality in another area and that is the motorhome crowd (land based cruising).
and it is this....
Many folks in the cruising (and motorhome) community have this mindset that
their cruising mobile is a small house.
So what this means usually is that people try to cram a house worths of
stuff in a small space, which IMHO opinion just leads to too much crap in to
small a space. Heck, I think most people have too much stuff in their HOUSES.
I think if you are able to paradigm shift (and remember not to double
clutch!) things might work out better...
Try to think of your boat or motorhome as a nice "large" sturdy tent that
you dont have move yourself and it carries all your CAMPING gear for you.
Of course dont skimp on safety stuff and the true essentials, but I think if
you work the problem from this end you'll end up with less stuff, more space
and be happier...
I used to do alot of car camping...ie camping where the tent was usually
next to or very short distance from the car...and invariably I started bringing
more and more stuff till it would all barely fit, I couldnt find anything
without taking out everything, and then at the end it never packed back in as
well as when I had started.
I finally learned to really pare down to the essentials and my stress levels
went way down, the workload really decreased, and the enjoyment went up
signifcantly.
Again, not aimed at you personally, its just you comments reminded me of
this train of thought I've had for years.
And while I'm at it....another pet peeve of sorts...
Take any "small" sailboat (ie about 40 feet or less).
The vast majority of the designs seem to take this approach:
Lets design this thing to sleep the maximum number of people possible (once
a tiny head and galley are put in).
And this often seem to lead to a few "secondary" sleeping spaces that are
marginal at best and these secondary sleeping spaces eat into valuable space
that could be used in the primary sleeping space and/or galley/head or just a
more open cabin.
Or in other words the designs have the feature of doing everything mediocre
rather than one thing GOOD.
I'd kinda like to see a design that say sleeps 2 WELL, daysails 4/5 nicely
rather than a design that can sleep 4 poorly when it may well be that 2 are all
that usually sleep in it...
I think you get my drift....
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pvanderwaart@...writes:
would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
very light.
Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.
Peter
Hi Peter..
Not "attacking" you personally, but I think IMHO many folks have the wrong
idea when it comes to cruising.
I 've never actually cruised in a boat before, but I have seen this
mentality in another area and that is the motorhome crowd (land based cruising).
and it is this....
Many folks in the cruising (and motorhome) community have this mindset that
their cruising mobile is a small house.
So what this means usually is that people try to cram a house worths of
stuff in a small space, which IMHO opinion just leads to too much crap in to
small a space. Heck, I think most people have too much stuff in their HOUSES.
I think if you are able to paradigm shift (and remember not to double
clutch!) things might work out better...
Try to think of your boat or motorhome as a nice "large" sturdy tent that
you dont have move yourself and it carries all your CAMPING gear for you.
Of course dont skimp on safety stuff and the true essentials, but I think if
you work the problem from this end you'll end up with less stuff, more space
and be happier...
I used to do alot of car camping...ie camping where the tent was usually
next to or very short distance from the car...and invariably I started bringing
more and more stuff till it would all barely fit, I couldnt find anything
without taking out everything, and then at the end it never packed back in as
well as when I had started.
I finally learned to really pare down to the essentials and my stress levels
went way down, the workload really decreased, and the enjoyment went up
signifcantly.
Again, not aimed at you personally, its just you comments reminded me of
this train of thought I've had for years.
And while I'm at it....another pet peeve of sorts...
Take any "small" sailboat (ie about 40 feet or less).
The vast majority of the designs seem to take this approach:
Lets design this thing to sleep the maximum number of people possible (once
a tiny head and galley are put in).
And this often seem to lead to a few "secondary" sleeping spaces that are
marginal at best and these secondary sleeping spaces eat into valuable space
that could be used in the primary sleeping space and/or galley/head or just a
more open cabin.
Or in other words the designs have the feature of doing everything mediocre
rather than one thing GOOD.
I'd kinda like to see a design that say sleeps 2 WELL, daysails 4/5 nicely
rather than a design that can sleep 4 poorly when it may well be that 2 are all
that usually sleep in it...
I think you get my drift....
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I believe that in his book The Folding Schooner, Bolger printed the
plans of a boat aboaut 26-28 feet long which is a fast motorsailor
from before the invention of the term. She's a semi-displacement
outboard powerboat with a sailing rig. Strip construction.
I would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
very light.
Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.
Peter
plans of a boat aboaut 26-28 feet long which is a fast motorsailor
from before the invention of the term. She's a semi-displacement
outboard powerboat with a sailing rig. Strip construction.
I would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
very light.
Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.
Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Cermak" <RWCermak@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't done that yet but I do have the plans for the FMS and like
> you, I want to stretch her to about 25'. I'm hoping to start later
> this year toward the end of the huricane season.
>
> Ryan
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Folks
> >
> > Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
> > year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
> and
> > the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
> > Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
> >
>
I haven't done that yet but I do have the plans for the FMS and like
you, I want to stretch her to about 25'. I'm hoping to start later
this year toward the end of the huricane season.
Ryan
you, I want to stretch her to about 25'. I'm hoping to start later
this year toward the end of the huricane season.
Ryan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks
>
> Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
> year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
and
> the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
> Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
>
Hi Folks
Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada and
the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada and
the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.