Re: Chinese Gaff Drawings
The higher the "attach" point for the span sheets, the more horizontal
the sheet pull on the associated batten(s)/yard. A horizontal sheeting
angle is what you're trying to attain as the goal is to maximize
control of sail twist while minimizing downward pull on the batten/yard.
The aft staff is a good place to mount your VHF antenna, letting it
serve as an extension of the aft staff above the uppermost sheet.
This is very helpful in preventing the ocassional slack sheet from
getting over the top of the aft staff and wrapping itself around the
staff......bummer!
John
< How tall does the aft staff need to be to work well?
the sheet pull on the associated batten(s)/yard. A horizontal sheeting
angle is what you're trying to attain as the goal is to maximize
control of sail twist while minimizing downward pull on the batten/yard.
The aft staff is a good place to mount your VHF antenna, letting it
serve as an extension of the aft staff above the uppermost sheet.
This is very helpful in preventing the ocassional slack sheet from
getting over the top of the aft staff and wrapping itself around the
staff......bummer!
John
< How tall does the aft staff need to be to work well?
> I second the request for photos or movie clips and I have anotherTaking photos undersail is not easy without a chaser boat, and
> question. How tall does the aft staff need to be to work well?
I have not yet had that chance. I suppose the aft staff would be
tolerant of height changes, and without experiments your question
has not been answered. You could probably calculate the
vector angles, forces and stresses, or just 'eyeball' the proportions,
half the height of the mainmast, give or take.
I second the request for photos or movie clips and I have another
question. How tall does the aft staff need to be to work well?
Thanks,
Amos
question. How tall does the aft staff need to be to work well?
Thanks,
Amos
>
> Thanks for the additional postings.
>
> Any chance you guys would be willing to post some technical photos?
> Some short movie clips showing it in action would be awesome!
>
Thanks for the additional postings.
Any chance you guys would be willing to post some technical photos?
Some short movie clips showing it in action would be awesome!
Any chance you guys would be willing to post some technical photos?
Some short movie clips showing it in action would be awesome!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Stockstill <mkstocks@...> wrote:
>
> I have a question about the CG rig - my impression is that there will
> be a major mess of lines running every which way -- how are you guys
> dealing with keeping up with all the loose sheet ends in practice??
>
> thanks.
>
> Mike
>Your link shows a comendably simple rig Craig. I believe this rig canDidn't say anything about battens on O'Brien's rig. His "sprit" is really a
>be a little difficult when sailing well off the wind. If the boat is
>not very broad aft, the main sheet lead is not far enough outboard,
>meaning a deeply curved, poorly shaped sail. I think that using the
>fully battened gaff sail in this set-up would break the battens
>straight away on a broad reach or runnning, without the support of a boom.
>Cheers,
>Don
><http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/>http://o
gaff-sized spar, not a batten.
He surely used it running off the wind, and apparently the vang to the
sprit end assists with the boomless sheeting problem. Look up his book(s)
for a lengthier description.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@...> wrote:
> You might do a search on Jasons Navigator, which looks to be asimpler
> and effective rig,with the same 'quick-change option....similar to A2's Micro at bolger4 files.
On 6/9/06, elejon <jmcdan@...> wrote:
> What Jim (Alert's owner) failed to mention was that he neverPCB told me similar too.
> implemented several key features of the Bolgers' Chinese Gaffer
> design.
What Jim (Alert's owner) failed to mention was that he never
implemented several key features of the Bolgers' Chinese Gaffer
design. I know this as I sailed ALERT while she had her "almost a
Chinese Gaffer" rig.
Among other things, he had just one sheet -- the mainsheet, thus
giving up one of the CG's strong points. Also, Jim made no attempt to
tune batten stiffness, even though the need had been discussed at
length with Phil & Susanne well before the change to the CG rig was
made. Further, ALERT's CG configuration had also been compromised
somewhat by Jim's desire to retain his existing mainmast dimensions.
Just for clarification, ALERT never crossed the Atlantic on her own
bottom while (kinda) Chinese Gaffer rigged.
In my opinion, the ALERT experience has little meaning with respect to
the attributes or drawbacks of the Chinese Gaffer.
John
implemented several key features of the Bolgers' Chinese Gaffer
design. I know this as I sailed ALERT while she had her "almost a
Chinese Gaffer" rig.
Among other things, he had just one sheet -- the mainsheet, thus
giving up one of the CG's strong points. Also, Jim made no attempt to
tune batten stiffness, even though the need had been discussed at
length with Phil & Susanne well before the change to the CG rig was
made. Further, ALERT's CG configuration had also been compromised
somewhat by Jim's desire to retain his existing mainmast dimensions.
Just for clarification, ALERT never crossed the Atlantic on her own
bottom while (kinda) Chinese Gaffer rigged.
In my opinion, the ALERT experience has little meaning with respect to
the attributes or drawbacks of the Chinese Gaffer.
John
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@...> wrote:
>
> It's interesting that the original Bolger Chinese Gaffer, Alert,
> ditched his rig after cruising to England and back, replacing it with a
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@...> wrote:
Motorsailor:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/
It is shown in the folder entitled "Cargo Boat Motorsailor."
I believe it can be reefed from the pilothouse?
Nels
>simpler
> It's interesting that the original Bolger Chinese Gaffer, Alert,
> ditched his rig after cruising to England and back, replacing it with
> a normal Chinese lugsail.
> You might do a search on Jasons Navigator, which looks to be a
> and effective rig,with the same 'quick-change option.Then there is the balanced lug rig with battens shown for Alaskan
> Cheers, Don
Motorsailor:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/
It is shown in the folder entitled "Cargo Boat Motorsailor."
I believe it can be reefed from the pilothouse?
Nels
Your link shows a comendably simple rig Craig. I believe this rig can
be a little difficult when sailing well off the wind. If the boat is
not very broad aft, the main sheet lead is not far enough outboard,
meaning a deeply curved, poorly shaped sail. I think that using the
fully battened gaff sail in this set-up would break the battens
straight away on a broad reach or runnning, without the support of a boom.
Cheers,
Don
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
be a little difficult when sailing well off the wind. If the boat is
not very broad aft, the main sheet lead is not far enough outboard,
meaning a deeply curved, poorly shaped sail. I think that using the
fully battened gaff sail in this set-up would break the battens
straight away on a broad reach or runnning, without the support of a boom.
Cheers,
Don
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
> Don't forget this option:
>
>http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/cob/COB_sea-boat.html
>
> Not exactly a Chinese Gaffer, but simpler and tested.
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
> <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
> The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
> The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
> Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
> American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
> Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
> _________________________________
>
> -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
> -- Macintosh kinda guy
> Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
> _________________________________
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
It's interesting that the original Bolger Chinese Gaffer, Alert,
ditched his rig after cruising to England and back, replacing it with
a normal Chinese lugsail.
You might do a search on Jasons Navigator, which looks to be a simpler
and effective rig,with the same 'quick-change option.
Cheers, Don
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
ditched his rig after cruising to England and back, replacing it with
a normal Chinese lugsail.
You might do a search on Jasons Navigator, which looks to be a simpler
and effective rig,with the same 'quick-change option.
Cheers, Don
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" <amosbech@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with this line of thought. My boat will seldom have the
> mast laid down and the boat is intended for seasonal cruising. The
> large sail area with easy reefing is what got my attention. I am
> not getting any younger you know. Right now it is not a problem but
> in 10 years... I was also considering the junk rig for these
> reasons but I would like to have the potential ability to point a
> little higher than seems likely with the junk. If that is really
> that important is debatable.
>
> Amos
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
There are [from memory] at least 12 places on our rig where knot tying
has been replaced with a mechanical fastener of some sort. Wooden
buttons on the parrels, snapshackles hooking sheetlet to span &c. &c.
I'll bet good money I can unfasten a snapshackle faster than you can
untie a bowline :)
>at the
> > Why no sisterhooks or carabiners to allow you to release the ends
> > sail battens?and cheaper.
>
> One could do that, though a bowline knot is just as quick, secure
>Just as quick? Hmmmm. I'll buy frugal and effective.
There are [from memory] at least 12 places on our rig where knot tying
has been replaced with a mechanical fastener of some sort. Wooden
buttons on the parrels, snapshackles hooking sheetlet to span &c. &c.
I'll bet good money I can unfasten a snapshackle faster than you can
untie a bowline :)
> Why no sisterhooks or carabiners to allow you to release the ends at theOne could do that, though a bowline knot is just as quick, secure and cheaper.
> sail battens?
Don't forget this option:
http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/cob/COB_sea-boat.html
Not exactly a Chinese Gaffer, but simpler and tested.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/cob/COB_sea-boat.html
Not exactly a Chinese Gaffer, but simpler and tested.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> Bruce has commented on the relative complexity of the Navigator setup.Why no sisterhooks or carabiners to allow you to release the ends at the
>> Passing a dozen lines into the glasshouse at each rigging and re-rigging
>> would tax my patience :)
>
>Exactly what I find frustrating is that, while the masts are horizontal,
>you must exactly get all the lines clear and straight without any crossing
>or knotting. While the mast is horizontal due to drape in the lines
>this gets confusing real quick.
>
>
><'"http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGw1ajY3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzExOTQzNjkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDY1NzkxBG1zZ0lkAzQ5Nzg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE0OTg1OTExNwR0cGNJZAM0OTc2Nw--;_ylg=1/SIG=11nmv0e3t/**http%3a//groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messa>Messages
>in this topic (12)
><'"http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJxbms3dnNrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzExOTQzNjkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDY1NzkxBG1zZ0lkAzQ5Nzg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTE0OTg1OTExNw--;_ylg=1/SIG=12dbj7cpr/**http%3a//groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/post%3fact=reply%26me>Reply
sail battens?
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree with this line of thought. My boat will seldom have the
mast laid down and the boat is intended for seasonal cruising. The
large sail area with easy reefing is what got my attention. I am
not getting any younger you know. Right now it is not a problem but
in 10 years... I was also considering the junk rig for these
reasons but I would like to have the potential ability to point a
little higher than seems likely with the junk. If that is really
that important is debatable.
Amos
mast laid down and the boat is intended for seasonal cruising. The
large sail area with easy reefing is what got my attention. I am
not getting any younger you know. Right now it is not a problem but
in 10 years... I was also considering the junk rig for these
reasons but I would like to have the potential ability to point a
little higher than seems likely with the junk. If that is really
that important is debatable.
Amos
> > If the boat is being used for day or safe passage sailing, to mymind
> > it doesn't have a lot of merit. Too complex for little gain.
>
> Specifically, the 'gain' is that you get a boat that has a large
> amount of sail for ghosting plus it is easily reefed when the
> wind pipes up, as a 'low stress' operation.
>
> Even in 'day use' or 'safe passage use', the danger of the on deck
> reefing drill, (a white knuckle experience is too many boats) can
> be avoided with this rig which may be worthwhile to many sailors.
>
> (Like me. I still have nightmares recalling past exposure and
> danger from precarious jib changing out on the foredeck!)
>
On 6/9/06, dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote:
amount of sail for ghosting plus it is easily reefed when the
wind pipes up, as a 'low stress' operation.
Even in 'day use' or 'safe passage use', the danger of the on deck
reefing drill, (a white knuckle experience is too many boats) can
be avoided with this rig which may be worthwhile to many sailors.
(Like me. I still have nightmares recalling past exposure and
danger from precarious jib changing out on the foredeck!)
> If the boat is being used for day or safe passage sailing, to my mindSpecifically, the 'gain' is that you get a boat that has a large
> it doesn't have a lot of merit. Too complex for little gain.
amount of sail for ghosting plus it is easily reefed when the
wind pipes up, as a 'low stress' operation.
Even in 'day use' or 'safe passage use', the danger of the on deck
reefing drill, (a white knuckle experience is too many boats) can
be avoided with this rig which may be worthwhile to many sailors.
(Like me. I still have nightmares recalling past exposure and
danger from precarious jib changing out on the foredeck!)
The rig was designed for easy and safe sail handling while
circumnavigating Australia, and it has merit for that purpose.
If the boat is being used for day or safe passage sailing, to my mind
it doesn't have a lot of merit. Too complex for little gain. Your
situation on a mooring permanently would not be so difficult, but
where the boat has to be unrigged often, it can be a nightmare.
Because all the parts are interdependent, if you get one piece wrong
when setting up, usually the whole lot has to come down again to
correct it.
I eventually came to the conclusion that all this gear was an
unnecessary complication on a simple little boat. I thought I would
enjoy 'tinkering', and though the rig works fine when all set up,
tinkering turned out more often to be frustration.
Cheers,
Don
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
circumnavigating Australia, and it has merit for that purpose.
If the boat is being used for day or safe passage sailing, to my mind
it doesn't have a lot of merit. Too complex for little gain. Your
situation on a mooring permanently would not be so difficult, but
where the boat has to be unrigged often, it can be a nightmare.
Because all the parts are interdependent, if you get one piece wrong
when setting up, usually the whole lot has to come down again to
correct it.
I eventually came to the conclusion that all this gear was an
unnecessary complication on a simple little boat. I thought I would
enjoy 'tinkering', and though the rig works fine when all set up,
tinkering turned out more often to be frustration.
Cheers,
Don
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
Hi Bruce
my mind's eye it seems possible:
When you've dropped the sail bundle, but while the mast is still
stepped, take a flat tie of some sort and pass it around the mast,
lifts and halyards just above the resting position of the gaff jaws.
That is to say, as low on the mast as you can with the sail still
parreled on. With the help of gravity it is pretty easy to lay out the
lines from the mast top so they lie tidily. Using ties either made of,
or closed with velcro makes the process of adjusting and 'tieing' a
snap. It's a low stress application, and the stretch of those velcro
'garden ties' works well for me.
Standing by the mast, pass another tie around the mast and cordage as
high as you can reach.
A further tie around the halyards etc but not passing round the mast
is enough to encourage the cords to form a bundle which will not
easily become entangled in the jaws when reversing the process.
Similar ties around the reef lines running from the bundled sail would
turn the writhing troublemakers into a relatively well behaved cord.
On reflection, what makes the process work is the rapidity with which
half a dozen velcro ties can be deployed. Doing the same thing with
knotted ties would be possible, but significantly slower.
Once the mast is unstepped and dropped into its travelling rack /
gallows / what-have-you [with the halyards etc still passing through
into the glasshouse] a final tie around the mast near the head will
deal with the tangle potential aloft. Just be sure to remember to
remove that final tie before you restep the mast next time [DAMHIKT].
cheers
Derek
> To fold the mast you need to unhook/untie the batten and gaff jawsPerhaps there's a reason why this would not work on your boat, but in
> from the mast, and when you do that then all ten lines that run down
> the mast.... can get tangled to the wrong side of the jaws.
my mind's eye it seems possible:
When you've dropped the sail bundle, but while the mast is still
stepped, take a flat tie of some sort and pass it around the mast,
lifts and halyards just above the resting position of the gaff jaws.
That is to say, as low on the mast as you can with the sail still
parreled on. With the help of gravity it is pretty easy to lay out the
lines from the mast top so they lie tidily. Using ties either made of,
or closed with velcro makes the process of adjusting and 'tieing' a
snap. It's a low stress application, and the stretch of those velcro
'garden ties' works well for me.
Standing by the mast, pass another tie around the mast and cordage as
high as you can reach.
A further tie around the halyards etc but not passing round the mast
is enough to encourage the cords to form a bundle which will not
easily become entangled in the jaws when reversing the process.
Similar ties around the reef lines running from the bundled sail would
turn the writhing troublemakers into a relatively well behaved cord.
On reflection, what makes the process work is the rapidity with which
half a dozen velcro ties can be deployed. Doing the same thing with
knotted ties would be possible, but significantly slower.
Once the mast is unstepped and dropped into its travelling rack /
gallows / what-have-you [with the halyards etc still passing through
into the glasshouse] a final tie around the mast near the head will
deal with the tangle potential aloft. Just be sure to remember to
remove that final tie before you restep the mast next time [DAMHIKT].
cheers
Derek
> can get tangled to the wrong side of the jaws.They also can get twisted around each other.
> Why would that no work with a folding mast on a trailer sailer?To fold the mast you need to unhook/untie the batten and gaff jaws
from the mast, and when you do that then all ten lines that run down
the mast, both halyards, both lifts and all six reefing lines (the
fore and the aft!) can get tangled to the wrong side of the jaws.
With some cleverness, this problem could be fixed, but not (yet) with
my cleverness.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/photos/browse/3cab
I know the photos just show a barbie-sized model but I like the idea
of how the vangs are located. One forward of the mast for the boom
and the other going from the gaff to the mizzenmast. Then just use
regular sleeved battens at the other locations with "no strings
attached":-)
Why would that no work with a folding mast on a trailer sailer?
Nels
> Exactly what I find frustrating is that, while the masts arehorizontal,
> you must exactly get all the lines clear and straight without anycrossing
> or knotting. While the mast is horizontal due to drape in thelines
> this gets confusing real quick.The sailplan that continues to intrigue me is that of Wandervogel:
>
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/photos/browse/3cab
I know the photos just show a barbie-sized model but I like the idea
of how the vangs are located. One forward of the mast for the boom
and the other going from the gaff to the mizzenmast. Then just use
regular sleeved battens at the other locations with "no strings
attached":-)
Why would that no work with a folding mast on a trailer sailer?
Nels
> If I recall correctly, the Bolgers sell an upgrade sheet or twofor people
> who want to convert their 'Micro' to a Chinese gaff rig version,and those
> drawings would give you as much information as exists anywhere,short of
> buying a full plan set for one of their larger designs. Of course,Micro has
> a much smaller sail than you are describing. I don't have my copyto hand,
> and cannot be sure whether one sheet has all the rig details, butthat's my
> recollection. Perhaps another fax to PB&F enquiring about the costof those
> sheets would be the way to go?Thanks to everyone for the responses. I will see if Bolger will
>
sell me the upgrade sheet and work from that. I will also take your
advise to use the wood battens because of their "adjustability".
Please continue on with this discussion since it will bring to light
issues and solutions I haven't thought of.
Thanks - Amos
> Bruce has commented on the relative complexity of the Navigator setup.Exactly what I find frustrating is that, while the masts are horizontal,
> Passing a dozen lines into the glasshouse at each rigging and re-rigging
> would tax my patience :)
you must exactly get all the lines clear and straight without any crossing
or knotting. While the mast is horizontal due to drape in the lines
this gets confusing real quick.
Don't forget that Reuel Parker, making battens for sharpie sails, used PVC
pipe with ash stiffening inserts. The article appeared some while back in
BOATBUILDER (which used to be an interesting magazine).
The Chinese Gaff is similar in principle to rigs used by Commodore Ralph
Munroe on his sharpies in the late 1800s earley 1900s, but he did not use
multiple sheets.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
pipe with ash stiffening inserts. The article appeared some while back in
BOATBUILDER (which used to be an interesting magazine).
The Chinese Gaff is similar in principle to rigs used by Commodore Ralph
Munroe on his sharpies in the late 1800s earley 1900s, but he did not use
multiple sheets.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
Hi Mike
We have a Chinese gaffer Micro with the regular cuddy cabin.
The number of lines gave me pause, especially for a trailer-sailer, but in
truth they aren't often an issue. What follows is probably much more
information than 99% of the list wants to read, for which I apologise. The
point here is mostly that what _appears_ to be a snakepit turns out to be
easily managed once a few trial runs have been undertaken. I moved hardware
and reconfigured a few times, and am still improving my thinking.
Mainsail handling is really one 3 part sheet, run to hand or cleat from the
transom cap quarter. Two upper sheetlets come down the mizzen mast and
through deadeyes at the transom cap to jam cleats on the starboard hand aft
end of the cockpit deck. Those two are sail trim lines, and are usually
coiled or flaked so they can be let fly at need. I haven't done anything
about it, but the notion of hanging a couple of mesh bags or bins in the
after well to dump the tails into has crossed my mind. On a larger version
of the rig, the procedure I envisage would be similar; When turning off the
wind slack the upper sheetlets, set course and coarse trim with the main,
then adjust the trimming sheets.
The main can be made off on the heavy cleats on the cockpit deck near the
rudder post. A larger version would probably be a winched main and clutch,
eh?
Mizzen trim is one sheet, turned at a deadeye on the boomkin and cleated at
the after end of the cockpit deck. The tail is coiled / flaked in similar
manner to the upper sheetlets. I found that in a gybe the sheetlets had a
habit of hanging up on the snotter end of the sprit boom so that was snubbed
and a jaw set to bear on the mast. Tension is adjusted with an outhaul
turned aft and brought to a cleat on the fore end of the spritboom.
We have pinrails mounted on the after cuddy bulkhead, three pins each P&S.
On each side, one pin carries the topping lift / lazyjack and another
carries a halyard.
Reefing lines run from the after end of the battens, through cheek blocks on
the boom, through paired clam cleats on the forward end of the boom and are
turned up to the jaws. Two lines total. Reefing involves taking up on the
lifts, easing the halyards, hauling and cleating the reeflines at the
forward end of the boom then reversing the halyard and lift process. Slack
in the reef lines is easily bundled and tucked between foot and boom,
although a perfectionist could pass a reef tie and use that as a gather. The
only time there's a loop of line around is while making sail, when the loop
lies on the cuddy roof.
If the boat sat on a mooring or on a larger boat I'd give some thought to
turning the reeflines aft at the mast to handle the chores from the cockpit,
but with Micro's forward well I'm not overly concerned about reefing on the
boom at the mast. There's a long tradition of doing it that way. As things
are arranged I can lift the bundled gaff, sail and boom away more readily.
Bruce has commented on the relative complexity of the Navigator setup.
Passing a dozen lines into the glasshouse at each rigging and re-rigging
would tax my patience :) Since we have the cuddy cabin, I've perhaps got an
easier life. Lifts and halyards unclip from the bundled sail and are lashed
to the mast in seconds with Velcro ties, and the mast dropped without
unreeving any lines. The same applies to the Mizzen with the upper sheetlets
for the mainsail. The sheetlets attach to the sail spans with clips, as the
mainsheet is clip-shackled to the boom bail. Last season I determined to
speed the process up further, and we should be on the water with a mainmast
tabernacle this year, cutting down on the time spent lashing masts to the
boat for trailer travel.
I'll second Bruce's comments on batten making - some tuning will be needed
[not 'might' be :) ]
cheers
Derek
We have a Chinese gaffer Micro with the regular cuddy cabin.
The number of lines gave me pause, especially for a trailer-sailer, but in
truth they aren't often an issue. What follows is probably much more
information than 99% of the list wants to read, for which I apologise. The
point here is mostly that what _appears_ to be a snakepit turns out to be
easily managed once a few trial runs have been undertaken. I moved hardware
and reconfigured a few times, and am still improving my thinking.
Mainsail handling is really one 3 part sheet, run to hand or cleat from the
transom cap quarter. Two upper sheetlets come down the mizzen mast and
through deadeyes at the transom cap to jam cleats on the starboard hand aft
end of the cockpit deck. Those two are sail trim lines, and are usually
coiled or flaked so they can be let fly at need. I haven't done anything
about it, but the notion of hanging a couple of mesh bags or bins in the
after well to dump the tails into has crossed my mind. On a larger version
of the rig, the procedure I envisage would be similar; When turning off the
wind slack the upper sheetlets, set course and coarse trim with the main,
then adjust the trimming sheets.
The main can be made off on the heavy cleats on the cockpit deck near the
rudder post. A larger version would probably be a winched main and clutch,
eh?
Mizzen trim is one sheet, turned at a deadeye on the boomkin and cleated at
the after end of the cockpit deck. The tail is coiled / flaked in similar
manner to the upper sheetlets. I found that in a gybe the sheetlets had a
habit of hanging up on the snotter end of the sprit boom so that was snubbed
and a jaw set to bear on the mast. Tension is adjusted with an outhaul
turned aft and brought to a cleat on the fore end of the spritboom.
We have pinrails mounted on the after cuddy bulkhead, three pins each P&S.
On each side, one pin carries the topping lift / lazyjack and another
carries a halyard.
Reefing lines run from the after end of the battens, through cheek blocks on
the boom, through paired clam cleats on the forward end of the boom and are
turned up to the jaws. Two lines total. Reefing involves taking up on the
lifts, easing the halyards, hauling and cleating the reeflines at the
forward end of the boom then reversing the halyard and lift process. Slack
in the reef lines is easily bundled and tucked between foot and boom,
although a perfectionist could pass a reef tie and use that as a gather. The
only time there's a loop of line around is while making sail, when the loop
lies on the cuddy roof.
If the boat sat on a mooring or on a larger boat I'd give some thought to
turning the reeflines aft at the mast to handle the chores from the cockpit,
but with Micro's forward well I'm not overly concerned about reefing on the
boom at the mast. There's a long tradition of doing it that way. As things
are arranged I can lift the bundled gaff, sail and boom away more readily.
Bruce has commented on the relative complexity of the Navigator setup.
Passing a dozen lines into the glasshouse at each rigging and re-rigging
would tax my patience :) Since we have the cuddy cabin, I've perhaps got an
easier life. Lifts and halyards unclip from the bundled sail and are lashed
to the mast in seconds with Velcro ties, and the mast dropped without
unreeving any lines. The same applies to the Mizzen with the upper sheetlets
for the mainsail. The sheetlets attach to the sail spans with clips, as the
mainsheet is clip-shackled to the boom bail. Last season I determined to
speed the process up further, and we should be on the water with a mainmast
tabernacle this year, cutting down on the time spent lashing masts to the
boat for trailer travel.
I'll second Bruce's comments on batten making - some tuning will be needed
[not 'might' be :) ]
cheers
Derek
On 6/8/06, Mike Stockstill <mkstocks@...> wrote:
on the walls of the cabin. The stress on each sheet is not much, and I use
cam cleats for the sheets and standard cleats for the halyards, reefing lines
and topping lifts. The heaviest pull is the throat halyard of the
gaff which I have
leveraged 2x with a pully. The topping lifts are a good pull too
though I have them
single part. None of the sheets are a heavy pull at all, even the
main boom sheet.
The 'mess' of lines is not anything close to a 'major mess', indeed it all
is simple and neat.
The 'mess' occurs when you need to step and unstep the masts.
As to the battens, I would strongly recommend ripping them from some
nice vertical grain clear lumber, and you will likely want to selectively
trim/slim them down to fine tune the camber/shape of the sail. If you built
some sort of fancy composite thing you would need to guess in advance
just exactly the right cambers, and each batten should be different. That
is, the high wind 'reefed' batten needs to be stiffer than the weak wind
full sail batten. Plus the aft end of the battens should be stiffer than the
forward portions.
> I have a question about the CG rig - my impression is that there willAs I have a navigator cabin, and I just loop them up and hang them on hooks
> be a major mess of lines running every which way -- how are you guys
> dealing with keeping up with all the loose sheet ends in practice??
on the walls of the cabin. The stress on each sheet is not much, and I use
cam cleats for the sheets and standard cleats for the halyards, reefing lines
and topping lifts. The heaviest pull is the throat halyard of the
gaff which I have
leveraged 2x with a pully. The topping lifts are a good pull too
though I have them
single part. None of the sheets are a heavy pull at all, even the
main boom sheet.
The 'mess' of lines is not anything close to a 'major mess', indeed it all
is simple and neat.
The 'mess' occurs when you need to step and unstep the masts.
As to the battens, I would strongly recommend ripping them from some
nice vertical grain clear lumber, and you will likely want to selectively
trim/slim them down to fine tune the camber/shape of the sail. If you built
some sort of fancy composite thing you would need to guess in advance
just exactly the right cambers, and each batten should be different. That
is, the high wind 'reefed' batten needs to be stiffer than the weak wind
full sail batten. Plus the aft end of the battens should be stiffer than the
forward portions.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Stockstill <mkstocks@...> wrote:
than a junk rig.
Amos
>will
> I have a question about the CG rig - my impression is that there
> be a major mess of lines running every which way -- how are you guysI don't have any practical experience but it doesn't look any worse
> dealing with keeping up with all the loose sheet ends in practice??
>
> thanks.
>
> Mike
>
than a junk rig.
Amos
I have a question about the CG rig - my impression is that there will
be a major mess of lines running every which way -- how are you guys
dealing with keeping up with all the loose sheet ends in practice??
thanks.
Mike
be a major mess of lines running every which way -- how are you guys
dealing with keeping up with all the loose sheet ends in practice??
thanks.
Mike
On Jun 8, 2006, at 6:57 PM, Derek Waters wrote:
> Hi Amos
>
> If I recall correctly, the Bolgers sell an upgrade sheet or two for
> people
> who want to convert their 'Micro' to a Chinese gaff rig version,
> and those
> drawings would give you as much information as exists anywhere,
> short of
> buying a full plan set for one of their larger designs. Of course,
> Micro has
> a much smaller sail than you are describing. I don't have my copy
> to hand,
> and cannot be sure whether one sheet has all the rig details, but
> that's my
> recollection. Perhaps another fax to PB&F enquiring about the cost
> of those
> sheets would be the way to go?
>
> If you have any specific questions about some point of detail,
> there are at
> least three of us on the Bolger group with a Chinese gaffer in the
> water,
> and one or two more who are "in progress" so you might well get
> answers.
>
> cheers
> Derek
>
>
>
Mike Stockstill
mkstocks@...
http://mkstocks.tripod.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Amos
If I recall correctly, the Bolgers sell an upgrade sheet or two for people
who want to convert their 'Micro' to a Chinese gaff rig version, and those
drawings would give you as much information as exists anywhere, short of
buying a full plan set for one of their larger designs. Of course, Micro has
a much smaller sail than you are describing. I don't have my copy to hand,
and cannot be sure whether one sheet has all the rig details, but that's my
recollection. Perhaps another fax to PB&F enquiring about the cost of those
sheets would be the way to go?
If you have any specific questions about some point of detail, there are at
least three of us on the Bolger group with a Chinese gaffer in the water,
and one or two more who are "in progress" so you might well get answers.
cheers
Derek
If I recall correctly, the Bolgers sell an upgrade sheet or two for people
who want to convert their 'Micro' to a Chinese gaff rig version, and those
drawings would give you as much information as exists anywhere, short of
buying a full plan set for one of their larger designs. Of course, Micro has
a much smaller sail than you are describing. I don't have my copy to hand,
and cannot be sure whether one sheet has all the rig details, but that's my
recollection. Perhaps another fax to PB&F enquiring about the cost of those
sheets would be the way to go?
If you have any specific questions about some point of detail, there are at
least three of us on the Bolger group with a Chinese gaffer in the water,
and one or two more who are "in progress" so you might well get answers.
cheers
Derek
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
was wondering about the batten dimensions (cross section). I have been
thinking about building the battens from glass and foam. They should
be fairly light that way and I could make the aft part of the batten
pretty stiff to avaid a hooked leech.
Another issue I have been wondering about is whether the aft staff will
interfere with a wind vane for steering.
The boat is going to be on a mooring so the setup time is not much of
an issue. Besides, I am a tinkerer that can't leave well enough alone
and this rig looks like it would give me something to do!
>the sizes.
> You can just scale the dimensions out of the book to get an idea of
> I built my rig, mostly as a prototype to see how the rig works, and II shouldn't have much problem with the overall shape of the sail but I
> used white polytarp for the sail cloth and cut the battons and spars
> from framing lumber. (home made pullys too) No real problems
> encountered other than complexity during setup.
>
> Be aware that the 'downside' to the rig is that it has more
> complexity, which is good because each piece is under less stress, and
> the added complexity gives added control (especially for reefing), but
> the added complexity adds to the cost and adds to the set up time.
>
was wondering about the batten dimensions (cross section). I have been
thinking about building the battens from glass and foam. They should
be fairly light that way and I could make the aft part of the batten
pretty stiff to avaid a hooked leech.
Another issue I have been wondering about is whether the aft staff will
interfere with a wind vane for steering.
The boat is going to be on a mooring so the setup time is not much of
an issue. Besides, I am a tinkerer that can't leave well enough alone
and this rig looks like it would give me something to do!
You can just scale the dimensions out of the book to get an idea of the sizes.
I built my rig, mostly as a prototype to see how the rig works, and I
used white polytarp for the sail cloth and cut the battons and spars
from framing lumber. (home made pullys too) No real problems
encountered other than complexity during setup.
Be aware that the 'downside' to the rig is that it has more
complexity, which is good because each piece is under less stress, and
the added complexity gives added control (especially for reefing), but
the added complexity adds to the cost and adds to the set up time.
I built my rig, mostly as a prototype to see how the rig works, and I
used white polytarp for the sail cloth and cut the battons and spars
from framing lumber. (home made pullys too) No real problems
encountered other than complexity during setup.
Be aware that the 'downside' to the rig is that it has more
complexity, which is good because each piece is under less stress, and
the added complexity gives added control (especially for reefing), but
the added complexity adds to the cost and adds to the set up time.
On 6/8/06, put_to_sea <amosbech@...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
> >
> > Have you read the Bolger book 103 Sailing Rigs? ISBN 0966699505
> > It has several pages describing the rig.
> >
>
> Yes, I own the book and that is where I first became interested in the
> rig. I had intended to go with a gaff rig but Bolger makes a pretty
> good case for the Chinese gaff.
>
> Amos
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
rig. I had intended to go with a gaff rig but Bolger makes a pretty
good case for the Chinese gaff.
Amos
>Yes, I own the book and that is where I first became interested in the
> Have you read the Bolger book 103 Sailing Rigs? ISBN 0966699505
> It has several pages describing the rig.
>
rig. I had intended to go with a gaff rig but Bolger makes a pretty
good case for the Chinese gaff.
Amos
Have you read the Bolger book 103 Sailing Rigs? ISBN 0966699505
It has several pages describing the rig.
http://hort.net/+13iH
The rig isn't magic, I own one, (and like it). I believe the rig
would be tolerant to geometry changes. The biggest feature, which
might not be obvious at first glance is that each of the battens has a
sheet, and that these sheets run to a pully mounted well above the
deck on a tall stern mounted shaft, (in most cases, this staff serves
double duty as a stout mizzen mast).
It has several pages describing the rig.
http://hort.net/+13iH
The rig isn't magic, I own one, (and like it). I believe the rig
would be tolerant to geometry changes. The biggest feature, which
might not be obvious at first glance is that each of the battens has a
sheet, and that these sheets run to a pully mounted well above the
deck on a tall stern mounted shaft, (in most cases, this staff serves
double duty as a stout mizzen mast).
On 6/8/06, put_to_sea <amosbech@...> wrote:
> Hello Bolgerites,
>
> I am considering a chinese gaff sail for the boat I am building. The
> hull is not a Bolger design but I sent Phil a letter telling him what I
> wanted to do along with some pictures of a completed hull (not mine).
> He sent me a very nice FAX saying first that he thought the chinese
> gaff would work very well on the hull and second that he did not want
> to design a rig for another designer's hull and did not have the time
> to do any additional design work for at least a year anyway. So what I
> am looking for are some chinese gaff detail drawings for a
> main sail of around 500 sq.ft., preferably one of the higher peaked
> versions. I have looked through the files and photo sections of all
> the Bolger groups but I didn't see any drawings that were either the
> correct size or clear enough that I could actually read the notations.
> Does anyone know where I could find some drawings to use for reference?
>
> Thanks - Amos
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
Hello Bolgerites,
I am considering a chinese gaff sail for the boat I am building. The
hull is not a Bolger design but I sent Phil a letter telling him what I
wanted to do along with some pictures of a completed hull (not mine).
He sent me a very nice FAX saying first that he thought the chinese
gaff would work very well on the hull and second that he did not want
to design a rig for another designer's hull and did not have the time
to do any additional design work for at least a year anyway. So what I
am looking for are some chinese gaff detail drawings for a
main sail of around 500 sq.ft., preferably one of the higher peaked
versions. I have looked through the files and photo sections of all
the Bolger groups but I didn't see any drawings that were either the
correct size or clear enough that I could actually read the notations.
Does anyone know where I could find some drawings to use for reference?
Thanks - Amos
I am considering a chinese gaff sail for the boat I am building. The
hull is not a Bolger design but I sent Phil a letter telling him what I
wanted to do along with some pictures of a completed hull (not mine).
He sent me a very nice FAX saying first that he thought the chinese
gaff would work very well on the hull and second that he did not want
to design a rig for another designer's hull and did not have the time
to do any additional design work for at least a year anyway. So what I
am looking for are some chinese gaff detail drawings for a
main sail of around 500 sq.ft., preferably one of the higher peaked
versions. I have looked through the files and photo sections of all
the Bolger groups but I didn't see any drawings that were either the
correct size or clear enough that I could actually read the notations.
Does anyone know where I could find some drawings to use for reference?
Thanks - Amos