Re: [bolger] Weight of Light Schooner?
Also, in my experience the best way to take the LS through a puff
that is too strong to be offset by the weight of the crew is to stay
steady on the tiller, jib and main and slack the foresail. The
resulting imbalance will cause the boat to round up, taking wind off
the jib and main. Then pull the tiller towards you to head off,
trimming the foresail as you go, and resume course. Well executed
you'll lose almost no speed, and make a nice slew to weather.
Some extra fun ways to knock over a Light Scooner.
* Let the booms get in the water. The more they drag, the more they
drag you over; the more they drag you over, the more they drag. No
amount of hiking out will help. Scamper over the side and get on the
daggerboard and you might get her back on her feet before she floods.
* Put the tiller over hard while making good speed and you can trip
over the the chine. You'll nearly always do this trying to round up
in a puff when you're already heeled too far and in a panic trying to
avoid a knock down (which is why I recommend the above method for
puffs). I've actually knocked the boat down weather a couple of
times. Of course that exposes the cockpits to chop and you swamp
before you can get her back on her feet.
* Waiting too long to slack the foresail when it with a puff. The
boat has very little beam, and what there is of it becomes a less
effective lever arm for your ballast (ie crew) with every degree of
heel.
The LS is a great boat, but it is not a boat that tolerates an
inattentive skipper or crew in all but the lightest condition. That
said, it is an extremely fun tolerant boat for ghosting. I can easily
reach half the wind speed in anything under 10 knots. Gurgling along
at 3 knots in 6 knots of wind with my family and dogs is very nice
and very relaxing.
that is too strong to be offset by the weight of the crew is to stay
steady on the tiller, jib and main and slack the foresail. The
resulting imbalance will cause the boat to round up, taking wind off
the jib and main. Then pull the tiller towards you to head off,
trimming the foresail as you go, and resume course. Well executed
you'll lose almost no speed, and make a nice slew to weather.
Some extra fun ways to knock over a Light Scooner.
* Let the booms get in the water. The more they drag, the more they
drag you over; the more they drag you over, the more they drag. No
amount of hiking out will help. Scamper over the side and get on the
daggerboard and you might get her back on her feet before she floods.
* Put the tiller over hard while making good speed and you can trip
over the the chine. You'll nearly always do this trying to round up
in a puff when you're already heeled too far and in a panic trying to
avoid a knock down (which is why I recommend the above method for
puffs). I've actually knocked the boat down weather a couple of
times. Of course that exposes the cockpits to chop and you swamp
before you can get her back on her feet.
* Waiting too long to slack the foresail when it with a puff. The
boat has very little beam, and what there is of it becomes a less
effective lever arm for your ballast (ie crew) with every degree of
heel.
The LS is a great boat, but it is not a boat that tolerates an
inattentive skipper or crew in all but the lightest condition. That
said, it is an extremely fun tolerant boat for ghosting. I can easily
reach half the wind speed in anything under 10 knots. Gurgling along
at 3 knots in 6 knots of wind with my family and dogs is very nice
and very relaxing.
On Jul 30, 2006, at 7:40 PM, David Ryan wrote:
> 15 knots and 550lbs of inexperienced crew? You were wildly under
> ballasted and under experience for the conditions. Maybe you could
> have carried the reefed main and foresail. Maybe.
>
> Where/how you got the idea the scooner is self-righting is utterly
> beyond me. If you add enough floatation, it can be made (mostly) self-
> rescuing.
>
> In my opinion, even with lots of extra flotation, the Light Scooner
> is best thought of and used like a Laser -- a fast, fun, physical
> boat in all but the lightest conditions.
>
> On Jul 10, 2006, at 6:19 PM,timbo@...wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Been lurking here for a while, enjoying the discussions.
> >
> > About a month ago I purchased Stephen Devine's Light Schooner
> > "Faith". I
> > had been enamored of the design after purchasing Peyton's book, had
> > figured I'd start building one someday, and then I found Stephen's
> > boat
> > for sale. Given my track record on finishing things, I figured this
> > was
> > the best chance I had to get one on the water.
> >
> > I've since had it out twice, the second time I capsized it in about
> > 15 mph
> > winds. I had main, fore, and jib up (no staysail), with about 550
> > lbs of
> > crew, albeit inexperienced and probably not optimally distributed.
> >
> > When I capsized, both fore and main sheets had been let go
> > completely a
> > few seconds before, but the boat continued over.
> >
> > The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the actual
> > weight
> > of the boat may be much lower than intended, and that the weight of
> > the
> > masts pulled it over. The boat is built of lauan plywood, not quite
> > 1/4
> > inch thick. When sitting on the trailer, I can easily pick up one
> > end of
> > the boat (about 1/3 of the weight).
> >
> > The Flying Tadpole site implies that the boat is generally mostly
> self
> > righting after a knockdown. My boat was nowhere near self righting
> > while
> > sitting on it's side. I unshpped the masts, it turned turtle, then
> > I and
> > another helper pulled on the centerboard and flipped her back on her
> > bottom. With zero flotation, the rear cockpit was totally swamped,
> > zero
> > freeboard, and the fore cockpit was about 75% flooded. I climbed in,
> > loaded up the masts and sails, took the tiller, and let the jetski
> > pull me
> > back to shore.
> >
> > So my question: What is a range of finished weights of the hulls of
> > Light
> > Schooners? I'll try to weigh mine tonight and post my findings.
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
15 knots and 550lbs of inexperienced crew? You were wildly under
ballasted and under experience for the conditions. Maybe you could
have carried the reefed main and foresail. Maybe.
Where/how you got the idea the scooner is self-righting is utterly
beyond me. If you add enough floatation, it can be made (mostly) self-
rescuing.
In my opinion, even with lots of extra flotation, the Light Scooner
is best thought of and used like a Laser -- a fast, fun, physical
boat in all but the lightest conditions.
ballasted and under experience for the conditions. Maybe you could
have carried the reefed main and foresail. Maybe.
Where/how you got the idea the scooner is self-righting is utterly
beyond me. If you add enough floatation, it can be made (mostly) self-
rescuing.
In my opinion, even with lots of extra flotation, the Light Scooner
is best thought of and used like a Laser -- a fast, fun, physical
boat in all but the lightest conditions.
On Jul 10, 2006, at 6:19 PM,timbo@...wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Been lurking here for a while, enjoying the discussions.
>
> About a month ago I purchased Stephen Devine's Light Schooner
> "Faith". I
> had been enamored of the design after purchasing Peyton's book, had
> figured I'd start building one someday, and then I found Stephen's
> boat
> for sale. Given my track record on finishing things, I figured this
> was
> the best chance I had to get one on the water.
>
> I've since had it out twice, the second time I capsized it in about
> 15 mph
> winds. I had main, fore, and jib up (no staysail), with about 550
> lbs of
> crew, albeit inexperienced and probably not optimally distributed.
>
> When I capsized, both fore and main sheets had been let go
> completely a
> few seconds before, but the boat continued over.
>
> The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the actual
> weight
> of the boat may be much lower than intended, and that the weight of
> the
> masts pulled it over. The boat is built of lauan plywood, not quite
> 1/4
> inch thick. When sitting on the trailer, I can easily pick up one
> end of
> the boat (about 1/3 of the weight).
>
> The Flying Tadpole site implies that the boat is generally mostly self
> righting after a knockdown. My boat was nowhere near self righting
> while
> sitting on it's side. I unshpped the masts, it turned turtle, then
> I and
> another helper pulled on the centerboard and flipped her back on her
> bottom. With zero flotation, the rear cockpit was totally swamped,
> zero
> freeboard, and the fore cockpit was about 75% flooded. I climbed in,
> loaded up the masts and sails, took the tiller, and let the jetski
> pull me
> back to shore.
>
> So my question: What is a range of finished weights of the hulls of
> Light
> Schooners? I'll try to weigh mine tonight and post my findings.
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Timbo:
Just be careful to NEVER wrap the lanyard around your fingers. ALWAYS belay
the bitter end. I knew a merchant sailor who forgot this and dropped a
bucket from the side of a moving ship. The bucket yanked off the fingers of
his dominant hand.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
adventures_in_astrophotography
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:03 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Weight of Light Schooner?
I would recommend keeping a good bucket on a
lanyard to bail the boat next time. Also, be very careful towing the
boat when flooded, as all that water weight cannot be good for the
structure.
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Just be careful to NEVER wrap the lanyard around your fingers. ALWAYS belay
the bitter end. I knew a merchant sailor who forgot this and dropped a
bucket from the side of a moving ship. The bucket yanked off the fingers of
his dominant hand.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
adventures_in_astrophotography
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:03 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Weight of Light Schooner?
I would recommend keeping a good bucket on a
lanyard to bail the boat next time. Also, be very careful towing the
boat when flooded, as all that water weight cannot be good for the
structure.
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Hi Timbo,
...snip...
into the water and "trip" the boat and cause the knockdown. My boat
has the cat-schooner rig with both booms longer than the main boom of
the original rig, and the only time I came close to dumping it, both
booms got in the water, but she came back up just in time. At the
time this happened, we were flying along with three grown men out on
the rail, about 580 lbs. total, in more than 15 mph of wind by my
estimation, when we caught a big gust.
My boat also has side decks much wider than those on the plans, and
we had water several inches up these decks before she righted. Is it
possible that you had some water come over the narrow side deck and
lost bouyancy?
floorboards, and gear. This is based on an estimate made by four of
us as we picked her up to set her on the trailer. Once all the
rigging and gear is loaded, I cannot easily pick up one end of the
boat on the trailer. You can easily check the bottom thickness by
looking at the motor well cutout. I suspect that my boat weighs
somewhat more than most, because I built it with boxed-in cockpits
about 25" wide, and the aforementioned very wide side decks (all with
PCB's blessing). I doubt my boat would ship much if any water in a
knockdown thanks to this modification.
was above water and fully extended) didn't right the flooded boat
when the masts were pulled. Some foam under the side decks might
have prevented this. I would recommend keeping a good bucket on a
lanyard to bail the boat next time. Also, be very careful towing the
boat when flooded, as all that water weight cannot be good for the
structure.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
...snip...
> I've since had it out twice, the second time I capsized it in about15 mph
> winds. I had main, fore, and jib up (no staysail), with about 550lbs of
> crew, albeit inexperienced and probably not optimally distributed.completely a
> When I capsized, both fore and main sheets had been let go
> few seconds before, but the boat continued over.I've read that it's possible for the main boom, or both booms to get
into the water and "trip" the boat and cause the knockdown. My boat
has the cat-schooner rig with both booms longer than the main boom of
the original rig, and the only time I came close to dumping it, both
booms got in the water, but she came back up just in time. At the
time this happened, we were flying along with three grown men out on
the rail, about 580 lbs. total, in more than 15 mph of wind by my
estimation, when we caught a big gust.
My boat also has side decks much wider than those on the plans, and
we had water several inches up these decks before she righted. Is it
possible that you had some water come over the narrow side deck and
lost bouyancy?
> The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the actualweight
> of the boat may be much lower than intended, and that the weight ofthe
> masts pulled it over. The boat is built of lauan plywood, notquite 1/4
> inch thick. When sitting on the trailer, I can easily pick up oneend of
> the boat (about 1/3 of the weight).My boat weighs approximately 300 lbs. stripped down of all rigging,
floorboards, and gear. This is based on an estimate made by four of
us as we picked her up to set her on the trailer. Once all the
rigging and gear is loaded, I cannot easily pick up one end of the
boat on the trailer. You can easily check the bottom thickness by
looking at the motor well cutout. I suspect that my boat weighs
somewhat more than most, because I built it with boxed-in cockpits
about 25" wide, and the aforementioned very wide side decks (all with
PCB's blessing). I doubt my boat would ship much if any water in a
knockdown thanks to this modification.
> The Flying Tadpole site implies that the boat is generally mostlyself
> righting after a knockdown. My boat was nowhere near self rightingwhile
> sitting on it's side. I unshpped the masts, it turned turtle, thenI and
> another helper pulled on the centerboard and flipped her back on herzero
> bottom. With zero flotation, the rear cockpit was totally swamped,
> freeboard, and the fore cockpit was about 75% flooded. I climbedin,
> loaded up the masts and sails, took the tiller, and let the jetskipull me
> back to shore.I'm surprised that the weight of the bottom and daggerboard (if it
was above water and fully extended) didn't right the flooded boat
when the masts were pulled. Some foam under the side decks might
have prevented this. I would recommend keeping a good bucket on a
lanyard to bail the boat next time. Also, be very careful towing the
boat when flooded, as all that water weight cannot be good for the
structure.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Timbo,
Given that the bottom is 5mm Luan, great care will be necessary to
prevent the ballast from breaking it out. One of my great hesitations
about building some of the light sharpies is that I weigh 235 pounds and
fear I may step through a bottom or deck.
Chris
Nels wrote:
Given that the bottom is 5mm Luan, great care will be necessary to
prevent the ballast from breaking it out. One of my great hesitations
about building some of the light sharpies is that I weigh 235 pounds and
fear I may step through a bottom or deck.
Chris
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, timbo@... wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>> The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the actual weight of the boat may be much lower than intended, and that the weight of the masts pulled it over. The boat is built of lauan plywood, not quite 1/4 inch thick. When sitting on the trailer, I can easily pick up one end of the boat (about 1/3 of the weight).
>>
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> As a quick response and unable to really address your concerns I am
> wondering if you have seen the building website offered by our
> esteemed moderator?
>
>http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html
>
> Gregg increased the floatation from 540 lb to 2300 lb after having
> experienced a dunking in his.
>
> Another thing that comes to mind is to wonder if the bottom is 1/2"
> plywood as specified? If not then you may have to add internal
> ballest in addition to sufficient floatation? The next thing to look
> at may be lighter masts. Perhaps birdsmouth filled with foam or
> something like that?
>
> Nels
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, timbo@... wrote:
As a quick response and unable to really address your concerns I am
wondering if you have seen the building website offered by our
esteemed moderator?
http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html
Gregg increased the floatation from 540 lb to 2300 lb after having
experienced a dunking in his.
Another thing that comes to mind is to wonder if the bottom is 1/2"
plywood as specified? If not then you may have to add internal
ballest in addition to sufficient floatation? The next thing to look
at may be lighter masts. Perhaps birdsmouth filled with foam or
something like that?
Nels
>weight
> Hi all,
>
>>
> The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the actual
> of the boat may be much lower than intended, and that the weightof the
> masts pulled it over. The boat is built of lauan plywood, notquite 1/4
> inch thick. When sitting on the trailer, I can easily pick up oneend of
> the boat (about 1/3 of the weight).Hi,
>
As a quick response and unable to really address your concerns I am
wondering if you have seen the building website offered by our
esteemed moderator?
http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html
Gregg increased the floatation from 540 lb to 2300 lb after having
experienced a dunking in his.
Another thing that comes to mind is to wonder if the bottom is 1/2"
plywood as specified? If not then you may have to add internal
ballest in addition to sufficient floatation? The next thing to look
at may be lighter masts. Perhaps birdsmouth filled with foam or
something like that?
Nels
Hi all,
Been lurking here for a while, enjoying the discussions.
About a month ago I purchased Stephen Devine's Light Schooner "Faith". I
had been enamored of the design after purchasing Peyton's book, had
figured I'd start building one someday, and then I found Stephen's boat
for sale. Given my track record on finishing things, I figured this was
the best chance I had to get one on the water.
I've since had it out twice, the second time I capsized it in about 15 mph
winds. I had main, fore, and jib up (no staysail), with about 550 lbs of
crew, albeit inexperienced and probably not optimally distributed.
When I capsized, both fore and main sheets had been let go completely a
few seconds before, but the boat continued over.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the actual weight
of the boat may be much lower than intended, and that the weight of the
masts pulled it over. The boat is built of lauan plywood, not quite 1/4
inch thick. When sitting on the trailer, I can easily pick up one end of
the boat (about 1/3 of the weight).
The Flying Tadpole site implies that the boat is generally mostly self
righting after a knockdown. My boat was nowhere near self righting while
sitting on it's side. I unshpped the masts, it turned turtle, then I and
another helper pulled on the centerboard and flipped her back on her
bottom. With zero flotation, the rear cockpit was totally swamped, zero
freeboard, and the fore cockpit was about 75% flooded. I climbed in,
loaded up the masts and sails, took the tiller, and let the jetski pull me
back to shore.
So my question: What is a range of finished weights of the hulls of Light
Schooners? I'll try to weigh mine tonight and post my findings.
Been lurking here for a while, enjoying the discussions.
About a month ago I purchased Stephen Devine's Light Schooner "Faith". I
had been enamored of the design after purchasing Peyton's book, had
figured I'd start building one someday, and then I found Stephen's boat
for sale. Given my track record on finishing things, I figured this was
the best chance I had to get one on the water.
I've since had it out twice, the second time I capsized it in about 15 mph
winds. I had main, fore, and jib up (no staysail), with about 550 lbs of
crew, albeit inexperienced and probably not optimally distributed.
When I capsized, both fore and main sheets had been let go completely a
few seconds before, but the boat continued over.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the actual weight
of the boat may be much lower than intended, and that the weight of the
masts pulled it over. The boat is built of lauan plywood, not quite 1/4
inch thick. When sitting on the trailer, I can easily pick up one end of
the boat (about 1/3 of the weight).
The Flying Tadpole site implies that the boat is generally mostly self
righting after a knockdown. My boat was nowhere near self righting while
sitting on it's side. I unshpped the masts, it turned turtle, then I and
another helper pulled on the centerboard and flipped her back on her
bottom. With zero flotation, the rear cockpit was totally swamped, zero
freeboard, and the fore cockpit was about 75% flooded. I climbed in,
loaded up the masts and sails, took the tiller, and let the jetski pull me
back to shore.
So my question: What is a range of finished weights of the hulls of Light
Schooners? I'll try to weigh mine tonight and post my findings.