Re: stretched brick
Sam,
David Grey, I believe, stretched a bolger skimmer to 10 or 12 feet and
narrowed it 6 inches or so. Not the same boat as a brick, but not
dissimilar in the amount of interior framing (basically none).
I just did a tortoise for Spat. It was very floppy right up until I
glued in the longitudinal seat. Stiff as a "board" now. Following
the plans from Build the New Instant Boats and gluing the seat to the
rockered bottom like a curved-bottomed, flat-topped box stiffened up
the whole boat unbelievably.
I'd say go for it. you can always add a front deck or some luan knees
if you have to later. If anything (look at cruising mouse for
example) stretching out the rocker and extending the waterline might
be a real plus.
lets see . . . where is that david grey link . . .
http://hometown.aol.com/polysail/HTML/boatnote.htm
David Grey, I believe, stretched a bolger skimmer to 10 or 12 feet and
narrowed it 6 inches or so. Not the same boat as a brick, but not
dissimilar in the amount of interior framing (basically none).
I just did a tortoise for Spat. It was very floppy right up until I
glued in the longitudinal seat. Stiff as a "board" now. Following
the plans from Build the New Instant Boats and gluing the seat to the
rockered bottom like a curved-bottomed, flat-topped box stiffened up
the whole boat unbelievably.
I'd say go for it. you can always add a front deck or some luan knees
if you have to later. If anything (look at cruising mouse for
example) stretching out the rocker and extending the waterline might
be a real plus.
lets see . . . where is that david grey link . . .
http://hometown.aol.com/polysail/HTML/boatnote.htm
If the gunwale needs stiffening, add an inwhale. Better yet use spacer
blocks between the side panel and the inwhale.
Joe T
blocks between the side panel and the inwhale.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
>
>
> The Brick sides are a bit floppy, though, as is. An added frame or
> two will help you.
> Mark
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Sam Glasscock wrote:
>
> > I need a big but light tender/dinghy for dispacement
> > speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000
> > lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
> > or twelve feet. Has anyone done this? Does the
> > reduced rocker which would result plus the longer
> > panels lessen the stiffness of the bottom so that the
> > planking thicknes would need to be increased? I want
> > it simple and light, so want to stay away from
> > "fastbrick" type cutwaters, etc. Any ideas?
One thing about the Brick bottom is that it's just about the limit
for bending 1/4" ply, so is pretty stiff to start with. With or
without the optional 1 1/2" skids underneath, I can't imagine any
trouble.
The rocker you propose would not be extreme. Once the sides are up,
you can experiment and stiffen up to suit.
The Brick sides are a bit floppy, though, as is. An added frame or
two will help you.
Mark
for bending 1/4" ply, so is pretty stiff to start with. With or
without the optional 1 1/2" skids underneath, I can't imagine any
trouble.
The rocker you propose would not be extreme. Once the sides are up,
you can experiment and stiffen up to suit.
The Brick sides are a bit floppy, though, as is. An added frame or
two will help you.
Mark
On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Sam Glasscock wrote:
> I need a big but light tender/dinghy for dispacement
> speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000
> lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
> or twelve feet. Has anyone done this? Does the
> reduced rocker which would result plus the longer
> panels lessen the stiffness of the bottom so that the
> planking thicknes would need to be increased? I want
> it simple and light, so want to stay away from
> "fastbrick" type cutwaters, etc. Any ideas?
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
I need a big but light tender/dinghy for dispacement
speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000
lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
or twelve feet. Has anyone done this? Does the
reduced rocker which would result plus the longer
panels lessen the stiffness of the bottom so that the
planking thicknes would need to be increased? I want
it simple and light, so want to stay away from
"fastbrick" type cutwaters, etc. Any ideas?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000
lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
or twelve feet. Has anyone done this? Does the
reduced rocker which would result plus the longer
panels lessen the stiffness of the bottom so that the
planking thicknes would need to be increased? I want
it simple and light, so want to stay away from
"fastbrick" type cutwaters, etc. Any ideas?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
> Here these are always refered to as Gunter rigs, but clearly PCB isIn the usage that I am familiar with, in the Gunter rig the yard has
> correct in calling it a lug rig.
jaws at the lower end, but with the Solent lug rig, it does not.
Forest Belle would be an example of the latter.
This would mean the yard is somewhat similar to the famous, and
popular, Jack Holt designed Mirror and Heron dinghies. Being racing
classes they are usually not rigged for reefing, but I had a Heron set
up for reefing once. The sail is set with the yard peaked vertically
up above the mast, suspended that way by a single halyard bent on
about a third the way up the yard. The yard jaws are curved forward
and kept to the mast by a parrel passing between them in front of the
mast. For reefing, on my Heron, the yard was dropped to the deck, the
halyard shifted to a higher position, and the reef points tied in
before again hoisting the reduced sail. This was best done on the hard
though.
Master Heron sailors say they can preset, then adjust, more exquisite
tuning variations into the rig than with any jib headed marconi rig.
Here these are always refered to as Gunter rigs, but clearly PCB is
correct in calling it a lug rig.
Graeme
popular, Jack Holt designed Mirror and Heron dinghies. Being racing
classes they are usually not rigged for reefing, but I had a Heron set
up for reefing once. The sail is set with the yard peaked vertically
up above the mast, suspended that way by a single halyard bent on
about a third the way up the yard. The yard jaws are curved forward
and kept to the mast by a parrel passing between them in front of the
mast. For reefing, on my Heron, the yard was dropped to the deck, the
halyard shifted to a higher position, and the reef points tied in
before again hoisting the reduced sail. This was best done on the hard
though.
Master Heron sailors say they can preset, then adjust, more exquisite
tuning variations into the rig than with any jib headed marconi rig.
Here these are always refered to as Gunter rigs, but clearly PCB is
correct in calling it a lug rig.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>...but in comments about a rig of this time, PCB recently
> wrote that the yard is lowered to the deck, and rehoisted after the
> halyard is shifted from mid-span to the top....
> About the high peaked lug rig: would it have to be lowered to theCertainly there is not only one way to rig a boat this big and this
> deck for reefing? I wonder how the halyard would be rigged and bent
> to the yard for reefing? Would a second halyard be permanently
> rigged to the upper yard near the peak/head?
traditional, but in comments about a rig of this time, PCB recently
wrote that the yard is lowered to the deck, and rehoisted after the
halyard is shifted from mid-span to the top.
Peter
Thanks for your trouble in searching this out and posting the scans
Peter. A kind of bigger "Rozinante" perhaps?
About the high peaked lug rig: would it have to be lowered to the
deck for reefing? I wonder how the halyard would be rigged and bent
to the yard for reefing? Would a second halyard be permanently
rigged to the upper yard near the peak/head?
Graeme
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
Peter. A kind of bigger "Rozinante" perhaps?
About the high peaked lug rig: would it have to be lowered to the
deck for reefing? I wonder how the halyard would be rigged and bent
to the yard for reefing? Would a second halyard be permanently
rigged to the upper yard near the peak/head?
Graeme
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
>20Belle/
> The scans for the Forest Belle design are in the Files section fo
> boger_study_plans_only.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Forest%
>he
> One of the things that this proposal illustrates is how different
> PCB's tastes and opinions are from the common throng. For example,
> tried to push this type of lug rig for a couple large boats, but
> without much success.
The scans for the Forest Belle design are in the Files section fo
boger_study_plans_only.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Forest%20Belle/
The material here is for a proposal, and as far as I know, it was
never made into a completed design. Still, a hundred years ago, many
boats were built without much more information than is in the
proposal, plus the table of offsets, plus Herreshoff's Scantling Rule
(or the builder's judgement).
One of the things that this proposal illustrates is how different
PCB's tastes and opinions are from the common throng. For example, he
tried to push this type of lug rig for a couple large boats, but
without much success. It's also a big boat at 40' and nearly 20,000
lbs with the accomodation of a Cape Dory 27. Forest Belle would be a
lot faster, though.
It is possible that a person of means - when my wife and I discussed
the possiblity that I might get such a boat, I used the phrase "the
unanticipated and inexplicable acquisition of unimagineable wealth" -
might fall in love with this design and have one built to keep at his
summer home in Bar Harbor for daysails and short cruises. He might
also attend some of the WoodenBoat meets and races. However, PCB
specified a plain finish, and our wealthy owner is going to demand
lots of polished brass and gleaming varnish. He will replace the lug
rig with a carbon fiber mast with much more staying and fly a bigger jib.
The question that caused me to mention Forest Belle some months ago
had to do with suggestions on how to use a pile of good plankning
timeber. There are lots of more practical options, e.g. PCB's
Friendship sloops, Prancing Pony, etc.
Peter
boger_study_plans_only.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Forest%20Belle/
The material here is for a proposal, and as far as I know, it was
never made into a completed design. Still, a hundred years ago, many
boats were built without much more information than is in the
proposal, plus the table of offsets, plus Herreshoff's Scantling Rule
(or the builder's judgement).
One of the things that this proposal illustrates is how different
PCB's tastes and opinions are from the common throng. For example, he
tried to push this type of lug rig for a couple large boats, but
without much success. It's also a big boat at 40' and nearly 20,000
lbs with the accomodation of a Cape Dory 27. Forest Belle would be a
lot faster, though.
It is possible that a person of means - when my wife and I discussed
the possiblity that I might get such a boat, I used the phrase "the
unanticipated and inexplicable acquisition of unimagineable wealth" -
might fall in love with this design and have one built to keep at his
summer home in Bar Harbor for daysails and short cruises. He might
also attend some of the WoodenBoat meets and races. However, PCB
specified a plain finish, and our wealthy owner is going to demand
lots of polished brass and gleaming varnish. He will replace the lug
rig with a carbon fiber mast with much more staying and fly a bigger jib.
The question that caused me to mention Forest Belle some months ago
had to do with suggestions on how to use a pile of good plankning
timeber. There are lots of more practical options, e.g. PCB's
Friendship sloops, Prancing Pony, etc.
Peter
Good news/Bad news.
Good: I found my copy of WB # 66 with the Forest Belle article.
Bad: I failed to bring it to work so I could scan it.
Remedy: Patience.
Good: I found my copy of WB # 66 with the Forest Belle article.
Bad: I failed to bring it to work so I could scan it.
Remedy: Patience.
Thanks for your help Peter. I've now a good idea of how Forest Belle
may have looked, how she came to be, and why she was as she was. I'd
be interested to know how PCB settled on the name "Forest Belle",
perhaps another literary work?
I'm hoping for a book from PCB in which he might cast an eye over his
work, and comment from his current perspective taking us through his
work as it has developed and unfolded along various themes. Some
designs he might do differently now, for a builder now. Some designs I
suspect are timeless, for a builder any now.
Cheers
Graeme
may have looked, how she came to be, and why she was as she was. I'd
be interested to know how PCB settled on the name "Forest Belle",
perhaps another literary work?
I'm hoping for a book from PCB in which he might cast an eye over his
work, and comment from his current perspective taking us through his
work as it has developed and unfolded along various themes. Some
designs he might do differently now, for a builder now. Some designs I
suspect are timeless, for a builder any now.
Cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
> Perhaps I can find and scan the article on the weekend.
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
spring. A rather proper English period piece with a murder by small
revolver, little mention of any blood, and a discussion of one's
willingness to display one's body depending on having attended public
or private school! Seemed it must have been a good size boat to house
a shooting and a half dozen suspects.
Bob
>The book is Death Under Sail. My wife found it at a thrift store this
>
> The very first novel published (circa 1935?) by CP Snow was a murder
> mystery, name not remembered.
spring. A rather proper English period piece with a murder by small
revolver, little mention of any blood, and a discussion of one's
willingness to display one's body depending on having attended public
or private school! Seemed it must have been a good size boat to house
a shooting and a half dozen suspects.
Bob
> Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a littlePerhaps I can find and scan the article on the weekend.
> vague. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill in
> some more details?
The very first novel published (circa 1935?) by CP Snow was a murder
mystery, name not remembered. The action centered around a cruising
sailboat called a wherry. I never actually had a good idea what the
word "wherry" meant when applied to 35-40 foot sailboat. I bring this
up because the Forest Belle design might well serve in a movie version
(except that the exact design of the cockpit is vital to the story).
So, to picture Forest Belle, you can conjure up what an English
Cruisng Yawl of the pre-war years might be like. The gaff main is
large, and the jib and mizzen are small. The hull form is deep so
there isn't much "salient keel" (to borrow a PCB phrase), basically
just the very heavy lead ballast casting.
I have wondered what PCB would say if one pursued the design now
because she is a deep keel boat with limited form stability (i.e. not
flat bottom) and just the opposite of the kind of boats that he has
been designing in the last ten years.
The key to the design is that PCB did his best to design for the
quickest and therefore cheapest, and otherwise best carvel planked
wood construction. He is on record in many places saying that carvel
planking makes the nicest boat, and he has pointed out that, however
complicated it seems to the layman or beginner, the carvel/bent frames
method was the most popular in its day because it was the quickest,
cheapest, and otherwise best.
Peter
I thought I'd glimpsed and moved on by a reference to a forthcoming
book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray
Long Island Sharpie type back around message #6990. Haven't seen it
again (if I did in the first place), but I did see the reference
below to perhaps yet another PCB&F design not widely known.
Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a little
ambiguous. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill
in
some more details?
I've pasted the posts below:
Cheers
Graeme
Message #6992
Traditional Bolger
Hello Guys
I'm wrestling with a difficult work problem here so how about a bit
of diversionary procrastination on boats ??
Recently I did a deal which has secured me a very large quantity of
what we here in New Zealand call "Marcacarpa" (Yanks will know it
as "Monterey Cypress", although trees grown here produce a slightly
different timber that is reckoned to be superior to the original).
Now this is about as fine aboatbuilding timber that one can get
anywhere, we've used it for structure,planking, and fitting out in
other boats. There's enough for a small ship.
If I don't come up with a project for this timber, my wife (bless
her)thinks she'll collar it for new kitchen joinery.
I have all Bolgers books and some designs from these do appeal
including "Sweet Chariot", "Shearwater" and "Antaxia". None of them
are "the" boathowever.
I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
offshore capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction
will fill thebill.
Now I know PCB has done many designs apart from those he's published
inbooks so I'd love too get some ideas please.
Regards
Foster Price
Southland, New Zealand
---------------------------------------------
Message #7006
Re: Traditional Bolger
in WoodenBoat about how a wood design could compete with a FG one.
Its a very traditional yawl with a big main. The boat is fairly
narrow and deep, as I recall. The idea was to make a boat that was
very easy to build and to sail, with the downside that it is a little
big (long) for its accomdations by current standards.
And beautiful.
Peter
book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray
Long Island Sharpie type back around message #6990. Haven't seen it
again (if I did in the first place), but I did see the reference
below to perhaps yet another PCB&F design not widely known.
Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a little
ambiguous. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill
in
some more details?
I've pasted the posts below:
Cheers
Graeme
Message #6992
Traditional Bolger
Hello Guys
I'm wrestling with a difficult work problem here so how about a bit
of diversionary procrastination on boats ??
Recently I did a deal which has secured me a very large quantity of
what we here in New Zealand call "Marcacarpa" (Yanks will know it
as "Monterey Cypress", although trees grown here produce a slightly
different timber that is reckoned to be superior to the original).
Now this is about as fine aboatbuilding timber that one can get
anywhere, we've used it for structure,planking, and fitting out in
other boats. There's enough for a small ship.
If I don't come up with a project for this timber, my wife (bless
her)thinks she'll collar it for new kitchen joinery.
I have all Bolgers books and some designs from these do appeal
including "Sweet Chariot", "Shearwater" and "Antaxia". None of them
are "the" boathowever.
I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
offshore capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction
will fill thebill.
Now I know PCB has done many designs apart from those he's published
inbooks so I'd love too get some ideas please.
Regards
Foster Price
Southland, New Zealand
---------------------------------------------
Message #7006
Re: Traditional Bolger
>offshore
> I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
> capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction willfill the
> bill.I nominate "Forest Belle." I think the design appeared in an article
in WoodenBoat about how a wood design could compete with a FG one.
Its a very traditional yawl with a big main. The boat is fairly
narrow and deep, as I recall. The idea was to make a boat that was
very easy to build and to sail, with the downside that it is a little
big (long) for its accomdations by current standards.
And beautiful.
Peter
I thought I'd glimpsed and moved on by a reference to a forthcoming
book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray
Long Island Sharpie type back around message #6990. Haven't seen it
again (if I did in the first place), but did see the reference below
to perhaps yet another PCB&F design not widely known.
Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a little
vague. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill in
some more details?
Cheers
Graeme
I've pasted the posts below:
Message #6992
Traditional Bolger
Hello Guys
I'm wrestling with a difficult work problem here so how about a bit
of
diversionary procrastination on boats ??
Recently I did a deal which has secured me a very large quantity of
what we
here in New Zealand call "Marcacarpa" (Yanks will know it
as "Monterey
Cypress", although trees grown here produce a slightly different
timber that
is reckoned to be superior to the original). Now this is about as
fine a
boatbuilding timber that one can get anywhere, we've used it for
structure,
planking, and fitting out in other boats. There's enough for a small
ship.
If I don't come up with a project for this timber, my wife (bless
her)
thinks she'll collar it for new kitchen joinery.
I have all Bolgers books and some designs from these do appeal
including
"Sweet Chariot", "Shearwater" and "Antaxia". None of them are "the"
boat
however.
I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
offshore
capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction will
fill the
bill.
Now I know PCB has done many designs apart from those he's published
in
books so I'd love too get some ideas please.
Regards
Foster Price
Southland, New Zealand
Message #7006
Re: Traditional Bolger
in WoodenBoat about how a wood design could compete with a FG one.
Its a very traditional yawl with a big main. The boat is fairly
narrow and deep, as I recall. The idea was to make a boat that was
very easy to build and to sail, with the downside that it is a little
big (long) for its accomdations by current standards.
And beautiful.
Peter
book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray
Long Island Sharpie type back around message #6990. Haven't seen it
again (if I did in the first place), but did see the reference below
to perhaps yet another PCB&F design not widely known.
Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a little
vague. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill in
some more details?
Cheers
Graeme
I've pasted the posts below:
Message #6992
Traditional Bolger
Hello Guys
I'm wrestling with a difficult work problem here so how about a bit
of
diversionary procrastination on boats ??
Recently I did a deal which has secured me a very large quantity of
what we
here in New Zealand call "Marcacarpa" (Yanks will know it
as "Monterey
Cypress", although trees grown here produce a slightly different
timber that
is reckoned to be superior to the original). Now this is about as
fine a
boatbuilding timber that one can get anywhere, we've used it for
structure,
planking, and fitting out in other boats. There's enough for a small
ship.
If I don't come up with a project for this timber, my wife (bless
her)
thinks she'll collar it for new kitchen joinery.
I have all Bolgers books and some designs from these do appeal
including
"Sweet Chariot", "Shearwater" and "Antaxia". None of them are "the"
boat
however.
I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
offshore
capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction will
fill the
bill.
Now I know PCB has done many designs apart from those he's published
in
books so I'd love too get some ideas please.
Regards
Foster Price
Southland, New Zealand
Message #7006
Re: Traditional Bolger
>offshore
> I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
> capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction willfill the
> bill.I nominate "Forest Belle." I think the design appeared in an article
in WoodenBoat about how a wood design could compete with a FG one.
Its a very traditional yawl with a big main. The boat is fairly
narrow and deep, as I recall. The idea was to make a boat that was
very easy to build and to sail, with the downside that it is a little
big (long) for its accomdations by current standards.
And beautiful.
Peter