Re: fast motor sailer
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
To make it a racer it would have to be 8m wide, very lightweight and
carrie lots of sail. 20 knots would not be uncommon for a boat like
that.
Obviously for cruising the (French) canals it can't be too wide.
4M wide would be ok. Cruising weight is estimated as 3-4 tonnes.
The point is I am not convinced that a cat is the best solution.
Hence my question about an easily driven hull 12m long.
The writing accompanying the Hawkeye sketch suggests the boat
accelerates without any planing hump thanks to the box keel.
The box keel can be looked upon as a long thin hull carrying most of
the boats weight the sponsons add stability and offer extra load
carrying capability.
Something like that 12m long?
Rudolf
>cruise
> In your first post, you described the 'wish list' of wanting to
> European canals. And, you also describe a need for high topspeed.
> You might consider that 'two thin hulls' will not give the bestdesign
> platform for comfortable cruising. In other words, choosing a
> involves trade offs, and if you want a boat to 'do it all', it isfigure
> sometimes physically impossible to 'do it all well'. In short,
> out what is important and then focus on the boat that fits thoseneeds
> well. If you want a cruiser, focus on that. If you want a racer,has
> focus on that. I don't think any boat both races and cruises that
> well.
>
> BTW, the canals of England are especially narrow, and Phil Bolger
> a design (not yet built) designed specifically for those narrowA 12m long catamaran would easily do 10 knots if well designed.
> canals. Think long and narrow. And, incidentally, long and narrow
> typically means 'fast'.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr1.jpg
>http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr2.jpg
>
To make it a racer it would have to be 8m wide, very lightweight and
carrie lots of sail. 20 knots would not be uncommon for a boat like
that.
Obviously for cruising the (French) canals it can't be too wide.
4M wide would be ok. Cruising weight is estimated as 3-4 tonnes.
The point is I am not convinced that a cat is the best solution.
Hence my question about an easily driven hull 12m long.
The writing accompanying the Hawkeye sketch suggests the boat
accelerates without any planing hump thanks to the box keel.
The box keel can be looked upon as a long thin hull carrying most of
the boats weight the sponsons add stability and offer extra load
carrying capability.
Something like that 12m long?
Rudolf
The photo reminds me of my first sail craft experience after paddling
canoes. It was a big "down the Shoalhaven River" scouts marathon, and
we were definately not seascouts. The craft we came up with was a
sheet of ply with 5 gallon drums wired on under each side with a small
tarpaulin square rigged sail slung from a sapling yard and sapling
mast supported in proper boyscout tent guy fashion. What a dog! It was
strong enough, but the pontoon ends were'nt faired, and there was no
lateral plane but a canoe paddle out the back. Four to six kids
paddling flat out could hardly make it go, while others recovered in
the accompanying canoe. There was no wind it seemed to us, we were
down in deep valleys much of the time and couldn't have tacked the rig
anyway even if we knew how. The real seascouts whizzed up and down on
apparent wind, how we didn't know, in a large whaler type sailboat
with very big rig having a great time while we slogged it out for
three very tiring, and trying days. We mostly pushed and pulled it,
the current was to slow to drift down the course in the alloted time,
over mud, rock, and ragged river bottom. I recall being almost totally
buggered and feeling very despondent, then magic happened that that
left us so elated that we forgot our dark despair and would later
remember that long weekend as a great one. In the final reaches of the
course the terrain opened out some, and out of nowhere all of a sudden
the wind she blew. Not only that she was a following wind. I was lucky
enough to be crewing the raft at the time when we hoisted sail and she
took off. Boy she took off. The two of us didn't realise it but by
moving aft to dip a paddle in for steerage we'd lifted those blunt
bows clear, and I swear we planed for about 4km to the end of the
course. At the time I could'nt believe the power of that old tarp
sail, and will never forget the thrill and the joy.
Graeme
canoes. It was a big "down the Shoalhaven River" scouts marathon, and
we were definately not seascouts. The craft we came up with was a
sheet of ply with 5 gallon drums wired on under each side with a small
tarpaulin square rigged sail slung from a sapling yard and sapling
mast supported in proper boyscout tent guy fashion. What a dog! It was
strong enough, but the pontoon ends were'nt faired, and there was no
lateral plane but a canoe paddle out the back. Four to six kids
paddling flat out could hardly make it go, while others recovered in
the accompanying canoe. There was no wind it seemed to us, we were
down in deep valleys much of the time and couldn't have tacked the rig
anyway even if we knew how. The real seascouts whizzed up and down on
apparent wind, how we didn't know, in a large whaler type sailboat
with very big rig having a great time while we slogged it out for
three very tiring, and trying days. We mostly pushed and pulled it,
the current was to slow to drift down the course in the alloted time,
over mud, rock, and ragged river bottom. I recall being almost totally
buggered and feeling very despondent, then magic happened that that
left us so elated that we forgot our dark despair and would later
remember that long weekend as a great one. In the final reaches of the
course the terrain opened out some, and out of nowhere all of a sudden
the wind she blew. Not only that she was a following wind. I was lucky
enough to be crewing the raft at the time when we hoisted sail and she
took off. Boy she took off. The two of us didn't realise it but by
moving aft to dip a paddle in for steerage we'd lifted those blunt
bows clear, and I swear we planed for about 4km to the end of the
course. At the time I could'nt believe the power of that old tarp
sail, and will never forget the thrill and the joy.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > If the speed seems really important, the I would suggest giving
up on
> > sailing and going to one of the power sharpies: good room, good
speed,
> > etc.
> >
> > Peter
>
> You never really need to give up on sailing. What you give up is
> windward ability. Running and reaching are always possible. Indeed,
> I am actively dreaming of a sail and leeboard for my Topaz Spyder.
>
>http://static.flickr.com/51/143715990_2874d2aecd.jpg
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
the modifications by her builder Jim Melcher. See this link:http://www.atomvoyages.com/
articles/Alert.htm
>A correction regarding Alert, aka Manatee: she has full comfortable headroom thanks to
> > Recently I met someone who is thinking of having a boat built to
> > cruise European canals and maybe sometine the med. He would like to
> > have the possibility to sail when the wind is right.
> > This boat should be 12m long aprox 4m wide, speed 10+ knots.
> >
> > Would there be existing Bolger plans to fit these requirements?
> > Thanks for any input,
>
> My first thought is that 10kts is too fast for a 12m sailboat. A more
> reasonable number would be about 7.5kts, and even that is pushing the
> limit.
>
> That aside, there are several Bolger plans to consider. There are
> several in which the pivoting mast mechanics have been worked out.
> Alert (aka Manatee) is about 33 ft, and would be good in the canals,
> but does not have full headroom. Apogee is an aluminum ketch designed
> for US canals, but the folded rig would be unpleasant for long runs in
> the canals. Loose Moose was designed for exactly the service you
> describe, plus an Atlantic Crossing. The Solution 48 is a big steel
> boat, but with folding masts, and would be good (unless the house is
> too high for the bridges).
>
> If the speed seems really important, the I would suggest giving up on
> sailing and going to one of the power sharpies: good room, good speed,
> etc.
>
> Peter
>
the modifications by her builder Jim Melcher. See this link:http://www.atomvoyages.com/
articles/Alert.htm
Hi what about a up dated thames barge, shall draft, wide beam = form
stability. heavy ply bottom, full standing head room, larger
windows, bluff bow and stern for maximum accomodation, 30ft would a
good size, keep it simple with a strong gaff rig,
Yours James
stability. heavy ply bottom, full standing head room, larger
windows, bluff bow and stern for maximum accomodation, 30ft would a
good size, keep it simple with a strong gaff rig,
Yours James
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> In your first post, you described the 'wish list' of wanting to
cruise
> European canals. And, you also describe a need for high top
speed.
> You might consider that 'two thin hulls' will not give the best
> platform for comfortable cruising. In other words, choosing a
design
> involves trade offs, and if you want a boat to 'do it all', it is
> sometimes physically impossible to 'do it all well'. In short,
figure
> out what is important and then focus on the boat that fits those
needs
> well. If you want a cruiser, focus on that. If you want a racer,
> focus on that. I don't think any boat both races and cruises that
> well.
>
> BTW, the canals of England are especially narrow, and Phil Bolger
has
> a design (not yet built) designed specifically for those narrow
> canals. Think long and narrow. And, incidentally, long and narrow
> typically means 'fast'.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr1.jpg
>http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr2.jpg
>
In your first post, you described the 'wish list' of wanting to cruise
European canals. And, you also describe a need for high top speed.
You might consider that 'two thin hulls' will not give the best
platform for comfortable cruising. In other words, choosing a design
involves trade offs, and if you want a boat to 'do it all', it is
sometimes physically impossible to 'do it all well'. In short, figure
out what is important and then focus on the boat that fits those needs
well. If you want a cruiser, focus on that. If you want a racer,
focus on that. I don't think any boat both races and cruises that
well.
BTW, the canals of England are especially narrow, and Phil Bolger has
a design (not yet built) designed specifically for those narrow
canals. Think long and narrow. And, incidentally, long and narrow
typically means 'fast'.
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr2.jpg
European canals. And, you also describe a need for high top speed.
You might consider that 'two thin hulls' will not give the best
platform for comfortable cruising. In other words, choosing a design
involves trade offs, and if you want a boat to 'do it all', it is
sometimes physically impossible to 'do it all well'. In short, figure
out what is important and then focus on the boat that fits those needs
well. If you want a cruiser, focus on that. If you want a racer,
focus on that. I don't think any boat both races and cruises that
well.
BTW, the canals of England are especially narrow, and Phil Bolger has
a design (not yet built) designed specifically for those narrow
canals. Think long and narrow. And, incidentally, long and narrow
typically means 'fast'.
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/martyr2.jpg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
As far as I can tell we are talking MOTOR- saling.
That is I think Bruce is right you give up windward ability.
To obtain the speed desired there is a thought of a catamaran.
Two thin hulls with very low drag, no wake to speak of and therefore
high top speed.
Hearing all that made me think of the box keel designs I know of
(from BWAOM). Just a bit larger, maybe.
Put on a simple rig, et voilá!
Rudolf
wrote:
> My first thought is that 10kts is too fast for a 12m sailboat. Amore
> reasonable number would be about 7.5kts, and even that is pushingthe
> limit.canals,
>
> That aside, there are several Bolger plans to consider. There are
> several in which the pivoting mast mechanics have been worked out.
> Alert (aka Manatee) is about 33 ft, and would be good in the
> but does not have full headroom. Apogee is an aluminum ketchdesigned
> for US canals, but the folded rig would be unpleasant for longruns in
> the canals. Loose Moose was designed for exactly the service youis
> describe, plus an Atlantic Crossing. The Solution 48 is a big steel
> boat, but with folding masts, and would be good (unless the house
> too high for the bridges).on
>
> If the speed seems really important, the I would suggest giving up
> sailing and going to one of the power sharpies: good room, goodspeed,
> etc.Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
>
> Peter
>
As far as I can tell we are talking MOTOR- saling.
That is I think Bruce is right you give up windward ability.
To obtain the speed desired there is a thought of a catamaran.
Two thin hulls with very low drag, no wake to speak of and therefore
high top speed.
Hearing all that made me think of the box keel designs I know of
(from BWAOM). Just a bit larger, maybe.
Put on a simple rig, et voilá!
Rudolf
> If the speed seems really important, the I would suggest giving up onYou never really need to give up on sailing. What you give up is
> sailing and going to one of the power sharpies: good room, good speed,
> etc.
>
> Peter
windward ability. Running and reaching are always possible. Indeed,
I am actively dreaming of a sail and leeboard for my Topaz Spyder.
http://static.flickr.com/51/143715990_2874d2aecd.jpg
> Recently I met someone who is thinking of having a boat built toMy first thought is that 10kts is too fast for a 12m sailboat. A more
> cruise European canals and maybe sometine the med. He would like to
> have the possibility to sail when the wind is right.
> This boat should be 12m long aprox 4m wide, speed 10+ knots.
>
> Would there be existing Bolger plans to fit these requirements?
> Thanks for any input,
reasonable number would be about 7.5kts, and even that is pushing the
limit.
That aside, there are several Bolger plans to consider. There are
several in which the pivoting mast mechanics have been worked out.
Alert (aka Manatee) is about 33 ft, and would be good in the canals,
but does not have full headroom. Apogee is an aluminum ketch designed
for US canals, but the folded rig would be unpleasant for long runs in
the canals. Loose Moose was designed for exactly the service you
describe, plus an Atlantic Crossing. The Solution 48 is a big steel
boat, but with folding masts, and would be good (unless the house is
too high for the bridges).
If the speed seems really important, the I would suggest giving up on
sailing and going to one of the power sharpies: good room, good speed,
etc.
Peter
Hi,
Recently I met someone who is thinking of having a boat built to
cruise European canals and maybe sometine the med. He would like to
have the possibility to sail when the wind is right.
This boat should be 12m long aprox 4m wide, speed 10+ knots.
Would there be existing Bolger plans to fit these requirements?
Thanks for any input,
Rudolf vd Brug
Recently I met someone who is thinking of having a boat built to
cruise European canals and maybe sometine the med. He would like to
have the possibility to sail when the wind is right.
This boat should be 12m long aprox 4m wide, speed 10+ knots.
Would there be existing Bolger plans to fit these requirements?
Thanks for any input,
Rudolf vd Brug