Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger commisions
> "This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to studyThanks Doug, you describe perfectly what I think all of us love about
> plan instead of just a 'cartoon') than I meant to, because it jelled
> until I got hooked. I tried this and that--and one suddenly clicked."
>
> That is apparently a quote from Mr. Bolger regarding the Micro, from
> Elrow LaRowe's flyer. (See
>http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/flyer.htm) Seems he has
> some history of working on what inspires him at the time rather than
> the next commission in line. If the boss lets me be, I do the same
> myself. If your design is slow in coming, it is not yet an inspired
> Bolger classic.
>
> Doug
Bolger boats, that they are often a work of inspiration.
"This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to study
plan instead of just a 'cartoon') than I meant to, because it jelled
until I got hooked. I tried this and that--and one suddenly clicked."
That is apparently a quote from Mr. Bolger regarding the Micro, from
Elrow LaRowe's flyer. (See
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/flyer.htm) Seems he has
some history of working on what inspires him at the time rather than
the next commission in line. If the boss lets me be, I do the same
myself. If your design is slow in coming, it is not yet an inspired
Bolger classic.
Doug
plan instead of just a 'cartoon') than I meant to, because it jelled
until I got hooked. I tried this and that--and one suddenly clicked."
That is apparently a quote from Mr. Bolger regarding the Micro, from
Elrow LaRowe's flyer. (See
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/flyer.htm) Seems he has
some history of working on what inspires him at the time rather than
the next commission in line. If the boss lets me be, I do the same
myself. If your design is slow in coming, it is not yet an inspired
Bolger classic.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
> <jon@> wrote:
> >
> >Susanne told me that they really wanted to
> update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
> wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
> well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
> overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
> means more delay in our commission.
>
> Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
> Explorer won't be finished next?
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
Hi Nels,
years ago. I was looking for something simple to build while they were
working on our commission that would give us some experience with a two-
master on a small scale. The LS was on obvious choice, but I couldn't
fit the boat in my garage with the bowsprit. Phil was nice enough to
draw the cat schooner rig one evening, which solved that problem and
also gave the boat two identical sails, approximating a simpler version
of Auriga's rig-to-be.
While we were talking about this, she mentioned some eventual
improvements to the LS that were to address a scenario where a couple
of young campers would sail the boat during the day and camp on board
at night. These improvements included a centerboard, twin shallow
fixed rudders with endplates, and moving the outboard mount to the
transom between the rudders. In addition, the boat was to be given
wide side decks with the cockpits boxed in and have several watertight
hatches for dry stowage of camping gear. I don't recall any changes to
the rig being mentioned, but I don't see how two youngsters could sail
that boat without it being reefed down all the time. Susanne did not
mention a BW house.
I wound up implementing the wide side decks and cockpit construction
based on my own interpretation of how this might look, and we're happy
with it (except that eight Bomar watertight hatches are quite expensive
and I haven't put them in yet in four years since). The wide side
decks are great for sitting and sailing, and if she ever goes over, I
don't see how she could ship any water in the cockpits. The twin
rudder idea was very appealing, but I wasn't about to try that on my
own. Moving the motor to the transom is also very appealing, and I
think that would be a big improvement over the well and plug design.
Having just spent three weekends repairing the daggerboard ("hey, this
water looks like it's getting shallow"...wham!), I'd be in favor of a
pivoting centerboard as well. I have no idea if PB&F have pursued any
of these ideas since then, or if they still plan to.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> I found this of interest. I was looking at Camper plans and noticedMy recollections are from a phone conversation with Susanne about 3-1/2
> the basic hull is much the same as the LS. So was thinking that an LS
> with a forward centerboard, instead of a daggerboard, a larger
> rudder, and the other design features of Camper, like the hard mast
> strut and fold-dwon masts, applied to the LS hull would make one
> slippery fast and versatile camp cruiser. And with the Birdwatcher
> style topsides it would be self-righting as well. Was almost going to
> fax an enquiry to PCB&F but now I see it would only make things worse
> for those still waiting for plans already in the works.
years ago. I was looking for something simple to build while they were
working on our commission that would give us some experience with a two-
master on a small scale. The LS was on obvious choice, but I couldn't
fit the boat in my garage with the bowsprit. Phil was nice enough to
draw the cat schooner rig one evening, which solved that problem and
also gave the boat two identical sails, approximating a simpler version
of Auriga's rig-to-be.
While we were talking about this, she mentioned some eventual
improvements to the LS that were to address a scenario where a couple
of young campers would sail the boat during the day and camp on board
at night. These improvements included a centerboard, twin shallow
fixed rudders with endplates, and moving the outboard mount to the
transom between the rudders. In addition, the boat was to be given
wide side decks with the cockpits boxed in and have several watertight
hatches for dry stowage of camping gear. I don't recall any changes to
the rig being mentioned, but I don't see how two youngsters could sail
that boat without it being reefed down all the time. Susanne did not
mention a BW house.
I wound up implementing the wide side decks and cockpit construction
based on my own interpretation of how this might look, and we're happy
with it (except that eight Bomar watertight hatches are quite expensive
and I haven't put them in yet in four years since). The wide side
decks are great for sitting and sailing, and if she ever goes over, I
don't see how she could ship any water in the cockpits. The twin
rudder idea was very appealing, but I wasn't about to try that on my
own. Moving the motor to the transom is also very appealing, and I
think that would be a big improvement over the well and plug design.
Having just spent three weekends repairing the daggerboard ("hey, this
water looks like it's getting shallow"...wham!), I'd be in favor of a
pivoting centerboard as well. I have no idea if PB&F have pursued any
of these ideas since then, or if they still plan to.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
means more delay in our commission.
Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
Explorer won't be finished next?
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
I found this of interest. I was looking at Camper plans and noticed
the basic hull is much the same as the LS. So was thinking that an LS
with a forward centerboard, instead of a daggerboard, a larger
rudder, and the other design features of Camper, like the hard mast
strut and fold-dwon masts, applied to the LS hull would make one
slippery fast and versatile camp cruiser. And with the Birdwatcher
style topsides it would be self-righting as well. Was almost going to
fax an enquiry to PCB&F but now I see it would only make things worse
for those still waiting for plans already in the works.
Very sad really. I wonder if Suesanne's penchant for detail slows
down Phil's work more than his advancing years?
Nels
<jon@...> wrote:
>update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
>Susanne told me that they really wanted to
wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
means more delay in our commission.
Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
Explorer won't be finished next?
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
I found this of interest. I was looking at Camper plans and noticed
the basic hull is much the same as the LS. So was thinking that an LS
with a forward centerboard, instead of a daggerboard, a larger
rudder, and the other design features of Camper, like the hard mast
strut and fold-dwon masts, applied to the LS hull would make one
slippery fast and versatile camp cruiser. And with the Birdwatcher
style topsides it would be self-righting as well. Was almost going to
fax an enquiry to PCB&F but now I see it would only make things worse
for those still waiting for plans already in the works.
Very sad really. I wonder if Suesanne's penchant for detail slows
down Phil's work more than his advancing years?
Nels
Having been a key player in many design projects, I have to chuckle at the phrases "95% complete" and "90% complete." Those were common in our progress reports and were pulled out of thin air based on how fast we were spending the available funds.
When doing a new design from scratch, one doesn't have any idea what the total design effort is going to be, and I can cite many examples of cases where most of the hardware and software was designed in a straightforward fashion and one seemingly trivial area demanded hundreds of man-hours.
It would really have helped our subsequent proposal efforts if we'd had a summary generated after a design was complete showing where the effort was expended and how much the design cost when delivered, but that never happened. Marketing didn't want such evidence laying around to hamper their future efforts.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
When doing a new design from scratch, one doesn't have any idea what the total design effort is going to be, and I can cite many examples of cases where most of the hardware and software was designed in a straightforward fashion and one seemingly trivial area demanded hundreds of man-hours.
It would really have helped our subsequent proposal efforts if we'd had a summary generated after a design was complete showing where the effort was expended and how much the design cost when delivered, but that never happened. Marketing didn't want such evidence laying around to hamper their future efforts.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Davis
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:34 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger commisions
Jon Kolb:
> One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
> indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no
> estimate of progress given for our Auriga (although they had done
> some work on it).
When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they
indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and
that it was a very hard problem. I'm still not in a position to begin
work on mine yet in any event, so the delay isn't such a big deal, but
I know that David was much more impatient.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Y'all are remarkably patient. I know guys who would be asking for an
update every month. I don't think that a quarterly progress report is
too much to ask.
PCB&F is very unbusinesslike, but it is a business, none-the-less, and
you should be able to treat it like one.
update every month. I don't think that a quarterly progress report is
too much to ask.
PCB&F is very unbusinesslike, but it is a business, none-the-less, and
you should be able to treat it like one.
Yes we paid around $800 Australian dollars for the design to be started with at least the same to be paid on completion. I am really not too concerned about it as the planking on the Lobster Boat is only days away from completion but there is still plenty of building to do and money to spend before it will be finished!!
dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote: --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Dominic tyson <dominictyson@...> wrote:
"Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
Wish I could get onto that,
Don
---------------------------------
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dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote: --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Dominic tyson <dominictyson@...> wrote:
>has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the
> I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
"Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
Wish I could get onto that,
Don
---------------------------------
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Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Dominic tyson <dominictyson@...> wrote:
"Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
Wish I could get onto that,
Don
>has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the
> I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
"Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
Wish I could get onto that,
Don
Jon Kolb:
indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and
that it was a very hard problem. I'm still not in a position to begin
work on mine yet in any event, so the delay isn't such a big deal, but
I know that David was much more impatient.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they
> indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no
> estimate of progress given for our Auriga (although they had done
> some work on it).
indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and
that it was a very hard problem. I'm still not in a position to begin
work on mine yet in any event, so the delay isn't such a big deal, but
I know that David was much more impatient.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Hi Dominic,
queue, and like you with money spent up front. We have had no contact
from PB&F in over 10 months, with two faxes from us during that time
going unanswered. I plan to write them again at the end of September
if we don't hear anything by then. We have no contract with PB&F,
having been told that they don't work to written agreements.
The "agreement" we have was that all monies were non-refundable once
work had started, although it was also stated that the job would take
10-15 months. At this point we don't feel that we have anything to
gain by bailing out, and we really want the design (it's our retirement
home), so we're hanging in there. I just hope that by the time we get
it, I'm still fit enough to build it myself. The fleet of small boats
I've built (and continue to build) while waiting is good practice, I
tell myself. Cartoon 40 is a leading candidate for this fall once
hunting season is over, but I'd rather get started on our cruiser
instead.
From what PB&F have told us, the nominal pecking order seems to be #666
Insolent 60, #667 Shine, #668 Auriga, and after that I have no idea.
One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no estimate of
progress given for our Auriga (although they had done some work on
it). However, as readers of MAIB can see, the design numbers do not
necessarily have anything to do with what order things gets worked on.
I believe Becky Thatcher is #669, but appears to have been commissioned
after the three mentioned above.
Updates to older designs and new concept studies appear to me to have
been undertaken and finished in the last five years as well, including
BWII, Chebacco's raised deck, Captain Rebecca Thatcher, Volunteer's rig
and outboard upgrade, Alaska Cargo Boat's air-cooled diesel and lug
rig, the big Proa, and several others I can't recall at the moment. A
little over four years ago, Susanne told me that they really wanted to
update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
means more delay in our commission.
Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
Explorer won't be finished next?
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results andWe're still holding out for Auriga, now well over five years in the
> has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since
> the "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there
> is still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
> building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
queue, and like you with money spent up front. We have had no contact
from PB&F in over 10 months, with two faxes from us during that time
going unanswered. I plan to write them again at the end of September
if we don't hear anything by then. We have no contract with PB&F,
having been told that they don't work to written agreements.
The "agreement" we have was that all monies were non-refundable once
work had started, although it was also stated that the job would take
10-15 months. At this point we don't feel that we have anything to
gain by bailing out, and we really want the design (it's our retirement
home), so we're hanging in there. I just hope that by the time we get
it, I'm still fit enough to build it myself. The fleet of small boats
I've built (and continue to build) while waiting is good practice, I
tell myself. Cartoon 40 is a leading candidate for this fall once
hunting season is over, but I'd rather get started on our cruiser
instead.
From what PB&F have told us, the nominal pecking order seems to be #666
Insolent 60, #667 Shine, #668 Auriga, and after that I have no idea.
One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no estimate of
progress given for our Auriga (although they had done some work on
it). However, as readers of MAIB can see, the design numbers do not
necessarily have anything to do with what order things gets worked on.
I believe Becky Thatcher is #669, but appears to have been commissioned
after the three mentioned above.
Updates to older designs and new concept studies appear to me to have
been undertaken and finished in the last five years as well, including
BWII, Chebacco's raised deck, Captain Rebecca Thatcher, Volunteer's rig
and outboard upgrade, Alaska Cargo Boat's air-cooled diesel and lug
rig, the big Proa, and several others I can't recall at the moment. A
little over four years ago, Susanne told me that they really wanted to
update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
means more delay in our commission.
Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
Explorer won't be finished next?
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote: Bruce,
Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.
I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
Tennesee article.
My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
commissions.
Don Schultz
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donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote: Bruce,
Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.
I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
Tennesee article.
My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
commissions.
Don Schultz
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bruce,
Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.
I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
Tennesee article.
My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
commissions.
Don Schultz
Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.
I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
Tennesee article.
My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
commissions.
Don Schultz
No word lately on Wandervogel either, just the cryptic mentions of the
design work backlog that show up in MAIB from time to time.
Wandervogel is a 23' water ballasted trailerable cruiser with chinese
gaff rig and birdwatcher cabin. A photo of my model is on the title
page of the Bolger 3 group.
I am not so sure that Wandervogel counts as a "commissioned" design.
It was initiated more as a stock plan for which I was the sponsor. I
think that PB&F were anxious to have something more reflective of
their current ideas than the Martha Jane which meets a similar mission.
Doug
design work backlog that show up in MAIB from time to time.
Wandervogel is a 23' water ballasted trailerable cruiser with chinese
gaff rig and birdwatcher cabin. A photo of my model is on the title
page of the Bolger 3 group.
I am not so sure that Wandervogel counts as a "commissioned" design.
It was initiated more as a stock plan for which I was the sponsor. I
think that PB&F were anxious to have something more reflective of
their current ideas than the Martha Jane which meets a similar mission.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...> wrote:
>
> Reading in MAIB about Tenn' there was mention of a square stern
> Topaz "eventually". This brought to mind there is some number of
> commissioned designs pending for members of this group.
>
> Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?
>
I believe that Sitka Explorer was commissioned, and
the Delaware Trawler was as well.
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
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the Delaware Trawler was as well.
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
> > > Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or__________________________________________________
> others?
>
> If I am not mistaken, I have never heard that Sitka
> Explorer has been
> actually comissioned for completion, do I remember
> that correctly?
>
Do You Yahoo!?
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> > Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?If I am not mistaken, I have never heard that Sitka Explorer has been
actually comissioned for completion, do I remember that correctly?
On 8/1/06, donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote:
With Topaz, everything aft of the motor mount is just 'fairing', so
with the use of a saw, Topaz is already square sterned in my opinion.
:)
By the way, last weekend, I installed my 90hp Honda on that motor
mount. Last night I did the plumbing for the bilge pump.
> Reading in MAIB about Tenn' there was mention of a square sternI think, also, Insolent 60 and Snow Leopard.
> Topaz "eventually". This brought to mind there is some number of
> commissioned designs pending for members of this group.
>
> Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?
With Topaz, everything aft of the motor mount is just 'fairing', so
with the use of a saw, Topaz is already square sterned in my opinion.
:)
By the way, last weekend, I installed my 90hp Honda on that motor
mount. Last night I did the plumbing for the bilge pump.
Reading in MAIB about Tenn' there was mention of a square stern
Topaz "eventually". This brought to mind there is some number of
commissioned designs pending for members of this group.
Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?
Topaz "eventually". This brought to mind there is some number of
commissioned designs pending for members of this group.
Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?