Re: [bolger] Re: T Bar for Sail track
Depending on the alloy and the environment., Aluminum galls and corrodes. Being firmly attached to a wooden surface, it's coifficient of expansion might also come into play. Of course lacing presents none of these problems.
The lacing technique suggested is a proven method, hundreds of years old. It is also discussed in the "Ashley Book of Knots". I've used a modification suggested by Ashley which places a "lark's head" knot around the grommet (http://www.ehow.com/how_13480_make-larks-head.html.) Tying the larks head at each gommet is a little tedious but only has to be done once. The key property of the lacing system is that the lace never completly rounds the mast.
The lacing technique suggested is a proven method, hundreds of years old. It is also discussed in the "Ashley Book of Knots". I've used a modification suggested by Ashley which places a "lark's head" knot around the grommet (http://www.ehow.com/how_13480_make-larks-head.html.) Tying the larks head at each gommet is a little tedious but only has to be done once. The key property of the lacing system is that the lace never completly rounds the mast.
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: T Bar for Sail track
Watch that the "solid" aluminium T-bar does not unduly stiffen the
mast. The mast should be able to bend, and so flatten the sail in a
blow.
Have you seen the below PCB piece on home made sail track in Elrow
La Rowe's Micro Newsletter #6, Feb 1985, that's archived over at
Chuck Merrel's Micro Page at his boatdesign.com? If you settle on
having sail track, and depending on your location, this may be a
solution for sail track without the expense of a proprietry brand
name. You would still have to get slides though. Perhaps these also
could be fabricated?
"From Bolger's file: I made a bo-bo somewhere in the plan material.
To get a reefing
effect, flatten the sail with the snotters to feather in strong
wound, he says. To make
your own sail track, make a hardwood batten 1/8" thick by 3/8" wide,
putting a stainless
track on top of it 1/16" thick by 5/8" wide, screws into meet to be
$6, at least 3/4"
long, heads flush. I bought from Defender, sold at a ratio of $18
for 12'. If you don't
use a track on your main, the snotter block will mess you up some
when it comes to furling.
Note the"mast taper is a curve, and it does awake a difference". He
comments on brail
reefing (goes back to about 1880), drawbacks being leaving semi-
loose flaps of sail aloft,
furling line makes windage, and is a nuisance when furling (extra
line on deck, etc.)."
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/mnl06.htm
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "clevelandsurfkid"
<clevelandsurfkid@...> wrote:
>
> I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage
where I
> am looking for something to use for sail track.
> I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
> Any thoughts?
>
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Watch that the "solid" aluminium T-bar does not unduly stiffen the
mast. The mast should be able to bend, and so flatten the sail in a
blow.
Have you seen the below PCB piece on home made sail track in Elrow
La Rowe's Micro Newsletter #6, Feb 1985, that's archived over at
Chuck Merrel's Micro Page at his boatdesign.com? If you settle on
having sail track, and depending on your location, this may be a
solution for sail track without the expense of a proprietry brand
name. You would still have to get slides though. Perhaps these also
could be fabricated?
"From Bolger's file: I made a bo-bo somewhere in the plan material.
To get a reefing
effect, flatten the sail with the snotters to feather in strong
wound, he says. To make
your own sail track, make a hardwood batten 1/8" thick by 3/8" wide,
putting a stainless
track on top of it 1/16" thick by 5/8" wide, screws into meet to be
$6, at least 3/4"
long, heads flush. I bought from Defender, sold at a ratio of $18
for 12'. If you don't
use a track on your main, the snotter block will mess you up some
when it comes to furling.
Note the"mast taper is a curve, and it does awake a difference". He
comments on brail
reefing (goes back to about 1880), drawbacks being leaving semi-
loose flaps of sail aloft,
furling line makes windage, and is a nuisance when furling (extra
line on deck, etc.)."
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/mnl06.htm
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "clevelandsurfkid"
<clevelandsurfkid@...> wrote:
mast. The mast should be able to bend, and so flatten the sail in a
blow.
Have you seen the below PCB piece on home made sail track in Elrow
La Rowe's Micro Newsletter #6, Feb 1985, that's archived over at
Chuck Merrel's Micro Page at his boatdesign.com? If you settle on
having sail track, and depending on your location, this may be a
solution for sail track without the expense of a proprietry brand
name. You would still have to get slides though. Perhaps these also
could be fabricated?
"From Bolger's file: I made a bo-bo somewhere in the plan material.
To get a reefing
effect, flatten the sail with the snotters to feather in strong
wound, he says. To make
your own sail track, make a hardwood batten 1/8" thick by 3/8" wide,
putting a stainless
track on top of it 1/16" thick by 5/8" wide, screws into meet to be
$6, at least 3/4"
long, heads flush. I bought from Defender, sold at a ratio of $18
for 12'. If you don't
use a track on your main, the snotter block will mess you up some
when it comes to furling.
Note the"mast taper is a curve, and it does awake a difference". He
comments on brail
reefing (goes back to about 1880), drawbacks being leaving semi-
loose flaps of sail aloft,
furling line makes windage, and is a nuisance when furling (extra
line on deck, etc.)."
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/mnl06.htm
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "clevelandsurfkid"
<clevelandsurfkid@...> wrote:
>where I
> I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage
> am looking for something to use for sail track.
> I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
> Any thoughts?
>
For Payson's lacing method see my Oldshoe photos in Bolger 6 files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/files/Joe%20Tribulato%27s%20Oldshoe/
I concur with all the positive remarks on this method. I used nylon
salmom line. It is quite stiff which helps prevent binding when
lowering the sail. I got it in a store that caters to commercial
fishermen. There is one minor glitch when used with a LOM with
snotter. It has to get past the snotter and the small hound I used to
hold it in place. This was a minor annoyance which needed some hands
on assistance. This glitch might be mitigated by devising a clever
system for lowering the snotter with the sail. I haven't had the
opportunity to try it as the Oldshoe was sold to Seattle shortly after
a few trials. Recomend not using flat stock on a spacer. It always
hung up. That's why I switched to lacing. No more slides for me. I
prefer the simplicity and clean look of the untracked mast.
Chris, I couldn't find the referance. Could you be more specific?
I know I got it from Payson somewhere.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/files/Joe%20Tribulato%27s%20Oldshoe/
I concur with all the positive remarks on this method. I used nylon
salmom line. It is quite stiff which helps prevent binding when
lowering the sail. I got it in a store that caters to commercial
fishermen. There is one minor glitch when used with a LOM with
snotter. It has to get past the snotter and the small hound I used to
hold it in place. This was a minor annoyance which needed some hands
on assistance. This glitch might be mitigated by devising a clever
system for lowering the snotter with the sail. I haven't had the
opportunity to try it as the Oldshoe was sold to Seattle shortly after
a few trials. Recomend not using flat stock on a spacer. It always
hung up. That's why I switched to lacing. No more slides for me. I
prefer the simplicity and clean look of the untracked mast.
Chris, I couldn't find the referance. Could you be more specific?
I know I got it from Payson somewhere.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
> For the record,
> I have no reservations regarding the lacing method as described in
> Build The New Instant Boats...
>
> V/R
> Chris
One of the things I like about the lacing is that the effect is exactly
like having a rotating mast in that the lacing freely revolves around
the mast. With the leading edge of the sail moving to the lee side of
the mast on a hard beat to windward the mast becomes part of the the air
foil rather than a disturbance in front of the air foil.
Doug
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
like having a rotating mast in that the lacing freely revolves around
the mast. With the leading edge of the sail moving to the lee side of
the mast on a hard beat to windward the mast becomes part of the the air
foil rather than a disturbance in front of the air foil.
Doug
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
>
> For the record,
>
> I have no reservations regarding the lacing method as described in Build
> The New Instant Boats. However, my first hand experience is limited to
> sail track and a sprit rig with rope grommets on the mast. I have also
> seen arrangements like the proposed t-bar bind under load.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> 9buck crowley wrote:
> > Chris'
> > snip ..
> >
> > Buck Crowley
> >
> >> From: Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...
> <mailto:wetherillc%40verizon.net>>
> >> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [bolger] T Bar for Sail track
> >> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 19:04:18 -0400
> >>
> >> snip...
> >>
> >> I can think of three reasons to use these instead of aluminum t-bars.
> >> First, less likely to corrode( not such a deal in fresh water). Second,
> >> less weight aloft. Third, basic design unchanged for several decades
> >> and well proven for ability to slide under load perpendicular to track
> >> (i.e. less likely to bind when hauling down the sail in a storm).
> >>
> >> V/R
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> clevelandsurfkid wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage where I
> >>> am looking for something to use for sail track.
> >>> I have read the comments around lacing and have had enough frantic
> >>> escapades on water to convince me that a track system would be a good
> >>> idea.
> >>> I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
> >>> Has anybody ever used T-bar track (just Google it on the internet, it
> >>> is commonly used in woodworking workshops.) It is made of solid
> >>> aluminimum and takes a quarter inch bolt head.
> >>> Any thoughts?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> snip...
> >
>
>
For the record,
I have no reservations regarding the lacing method as described in Build
The New Instant Boats. However, my first hand experience is limited to
sail track and a sprit rig with rope grommets on the mast. I have also
seen arrangements like the proposed t-bar bind under load.
V/R
Chris
9buck crowley wrote:
I have no reservations regarding the lacing method as described in Build
The New Instant Boats. However, my first hand experience is limited to
sail track and a sprit rig with rope grommets on the mast. I have also
seen arrangements like the proposed t-bar bind under load.
V/R
Chris
9buck crowley wrote:
> Chris'
> snip ..
>
> Buck Crowley
>
>> From: Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] T Bar for Sail track
>> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 19:04:18 -0400
>>
>> snip...
>>
>> I can think of three reasons to use these instead of aluminum t-bars.
>> First, less likely to corrode( not such a deal in fresh water). Second,
>> less weight aloft. Third, basic design unchanged for several decades
>> and well proven for ability to slide under load perpendicular to track
>> (i.e. less likely to bind when hauling down the sail in a storm).
>>
>> V/R
>> Chris
>>
>> clevelandsurfkid wrote:
>>
>>> I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage where I
>>> am looking for something to use for sail track.
>>> I have read the comments around lacing and have had enough frantic
>>> escapades on water to convince me that a track system would be a good
>>> idea.
>>> I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
>>> Has anybody ever used T-bar track (just Google it on the internet, it
>>> is commonly used in woodworking workshops.) It is made of solid
>>> aluminimum and takes a quarter inch bolt head.
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> snip...
>
Chris'
I used sail track on my Micro and was thinking about getting rid of it and
using Phil Bolgers lacing system when I have new sails made. The snotter
block is then attached to a loop of line around the mast instead of a pad
eye screwed to the forward side of the mast. I like the loop idea better as
you can experiment with the position of the sprit boom easily. Also I did
have a very substantial pad eye fail on me. Can't say that the slides ever
prevented any "frantic moments" of which there were plenty at first. Now I
feel that we are frantic free as far as the boat is concerned but that took
time. I do recall that on the first few trips on the boat the then new lines
kept slipping off the sprit booms. That stopped after they weathered a
little.. You'll also might want to rig a line from about the middle of the
main sprit boom to an eye up high on the mast other wise the boom comes down
when the main comes down. It's just a form of topping lift. The other advice
I'd give you is go alone or with a more experienced sailor the first few
times my family still suffers from PTSD from our first few times out ..
Buck Crowley
I used sail track on my Micro and was thinking about getting rid of it and
using Phil Bolgers lacing system when I have new sails made. The snotter
block is then attached to a loop of line around the mast instead of a pad
eye screwed to the forward side of the mast. I like the loop idea better as
you can experiment with the position of the sprit boom easily. Also I did
have a very substantial pad eye fail on me. Can't say that the slides ever
prevented any "frantic moments" of which there were plenty at first. Now I
feel that we are frantic free as far as the boat is concerned but that took
time. I do recall that on the first few trips on the boat the then new lines
kept slipping off the sprit booms. That stopped after they weathered a
little.. You'll also might want to rig a line from about the middle of the
main sprit boom to an eye up high on the mast other wise the boom comes down
when the main comes down. It's just a form of topping lift. The other advice
I'd give you is go alone or with a more experienced sailor the first few
times my family still suffers from PTSD from our first few times out ..
Buck Crowley
>From: Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] T Bar for Sail track
>Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 19:04:18 -0400
>
>Check out sail track at West Marine. 304SS available in 2 sizes and 6'
>or 12' lengths. 6' piece of 5/8" wide track is $32.99. 5/8" slides are
>$11.99 ea.
>
>I can think of three reasons to use these instead of aluminum t-bars.
>First, less likely to corrode( not such a deal in fresh water). Second,
>less weight aloft. Third, basic design unchanged for several decades
>and well proven for ability to slide under load perpendicular to track
>(i.e. less likely to bind when hauling down the sail in a storm).
>
>V/R
>Chris
>
>clevelandsurfkid wrote:
> > I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage where I
> > am looking for something to use for sail track.
> > I have read the comments around lacing and have had enough frantic
> > escapades on water to convince me that a track system would be a good
> > idea.
> > I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
> > Has anybody ever used T-bar track (just Google it on the internet, it
> > is commonly used in woodworking workshops.) It is made of solid
> > aluminimum and takes a quarter inch bolt head.
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
>horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
On my Micro, I used sailtrack that I purchased used (barely) from a
former Micro builder. I worked great with no bindups. The mast was
round from the partners on up, and tapered as well.
Would be skeptical to go any other route as there is a lot of stress
on the luff.
FYI - it is a good idea to really secure the snotter well. The
purchaser of my boat had an issue with it shortly after I sold it to
him. Use the method described on your plans.
Good Luck,
I hope you get a chance to launch soon.
Work on Birdwatcher II will start after the house is painted.
David Jost
"celebrating the rebirth of Diablo, rescued from Davey Jones locker!"
former Micro builder. I worked great with no bindups. The mast was
round from the partners on up, and tapered as well.
Would be skeptical to go any other route as there is a lot of stress
on the luff.
FYI - it is a good idea to really secure the snotter well. The
purchaser of my boat had an issue with it shortly after I sold it to
him. Use the method described on your plans.
Good Luck,
I hope you get a chance to launch soon.
Work on Birdwatcher II will start after the house is painted.
David Jost
"celebrating the rebirth of Diablo, rescued from Davey Jones locker!"
Check out sail track at West Marine. 304SS available in 2 sizes and 6'
or 12' lengths. 6' piece of 5/8" wide track is $32.99. 5/8" slides are
$11.99 ea.
I can think of three reasons to use these instead of aluminum t-bars.
First, less likely to corrode( not such a deal in fresh water). Second,
less weight aloft. Third, basic design unchanged for several decades
and well proven for ability to slide under load perpendicular to track
(i.e. less likely to bind when hauling down the sail in a storm).
V/R
Chris
clevelandsurfkid wrote:
or 12' lengths. 6' piece of 5/8" wide track is $32.99. 5/8" slides are
$11.99 ea.
I can think of three reasons to use these instead of aluminum t-bars.
First, less likely to corrode( not such a deal in fresh water). Second,
less weight aloft. Third, basic design unchanged for several decades
and well proven for ability to slide under load perpendicular to track
(i.e. less likely to bind when hauling down the sail in a storm).
V/R
Chris
clevelandsurfkid wrote:
> I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage where I
> am looking for something to use for sail track.
> I have read the comments around lacing and have had enough frantic
> escapades on water to convince me that a track system would be a good
> idea.
> I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
> Has anybody ever used T-bar track (just Google it on the internet, it
> is commonly used in woodworking workshops.) It is made of solid
> aluminimum and takes a quarter inch bolt head.
> Any thoughts?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I have used Bolgers sail laceing for a lot of years. I have never
had any problem with it hanging up or causing any worry at all. It
revolves around the mast and winds up on the leeward side of the mast
creating an excellent airfoil shape.. Far better than a track or a
slot on the back side of the mast can do. If done like Bolger
reccomends the lacing relaxes as the sail is dropped and never ever
hangs up as a sail track is prone to do. If you feel this method may
be a problem it's because somehow you are not understanding how it
works. I have used hoops and sail track of several different types as
well as a couple of different types of lacing and never found any thing
as worry free. Believe me it works and works well. Here's where the
rub may come in, I have never used it on anything but round masts.
Doug
clevelandsurfkid wrote:
had any problem with it hanging up or causing any worry at all. It
revolves around the mast and winds up on the leeward side of the mast
creating an excellent airfoil shape.. Far better than a track or a
slot on the back side of the mast can do. If done like Bolger
reccomends the lacing relaxes as the sail is dropped and never ever
hangs up as a sail track is prone to do. If you feel this method may
be a problem it's because somehow you are not understanding how it
works. I have used hoops and sail track of several different types as
well as a couple of different types of lacing and never found any thing
as worry free. Believe me it works and works well. Here's where the
rub may come in, I have never used it on anything but round masts.
Doug
clevelandsurfkid wrote:
>
> I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage where I
> am looking for something to use for sail track.
> I have read the comments around lacing and have had enough frantic
> escapades on water to convince me that a track system would be a good
> idea.
> I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
> Has anybody ever used T-bar track (just Google it on the internet, it
> is commonly used in woodworking workshops.) It is made of solid
> aluminimum and takes a quarter inch bolt head.
> Any thoughts?
>
>
I have been building a Bolger Micro and have come to the stage where I
am looking for something to use for sail track.
I have read the comments around lacing and have had enough frantic
escapades on water to convince me that a track system would be a good
idea.
I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
Has anybody ever used T-bar track (just Google it on the internet, it
is commonly used in woodworking workshops.) It is made of solid
aluminimum and takes a quarter inch bolt head.
Any thoughts?
am looking for something to use for sail track.
I have read the comments around lacing and have had enough frantic
escapades on water to convince me that a track system would be a good
idea.
I do not want to pay for proprietry sail track, however.
Has anybody ever used T-bar track (just Google it on the internet, it
is commonly used in woodworking workshops.) It is made of solid
aluminimum and takes a quarter inch bolt head.
Any thoughts?