Re: Sprit Lift-Snotter
This too ought to be better than having to tie a lift from the
masthead. (I do wonder why PCB drew it that way though. I dunno, but
it just occured to me that perhaps the line from the masthead is the
one he mentions sometimes to use in securing the sprit and furled sail
after it has been rolled up from the clew to to the mast? It could be
a case of: "if there is a string there anyway; ...might as well use it
for something"?).
Thanks for the description John.
Graeme
masthead. (I do wonder why PCB drew it that way though. I dunno, but
it just occured to me that perhaps the line from the masthead is the
one he mentions sometimes to use in securing the sprit and furled sail
after it has been rolled up from the clew to to the mast? It could be
a case of: "if there is a string there anyway; ...might as well use it
for something"?).
Thanks for the description John.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>..nubbins on the aft side of the mast..
>..a bit less than the diameter of the snotter thick, with rounded
>edges, and they taper down gracefully on their lower ends..
>..sail lacing doesn't snag...
I can't speak for Joe's "hound", not having seen it, but on my Footloose
skiff I use little nubbins on the aft side of the mast to hold the snotter
up. I call them "thumbless cleats." They're a bit less than the diameter
of the snotter thick, with rounded edges, and they taper down gracefully
on their lower ends. I have one at the normal height of the snotter and
another at the reefing position. They hold the sprit up fine and the sail
lacing doesn't snag on them.
skiff I use little nubbins on the aft side of the mast to hold the snotter
up. I call them "thumbless cleats." They're a bit less than the diameter
of the snotter thick, with rounded edges, and they taper down gracefully
on their lower ends. I have one at the normal height of the snotter and
another at the reefing position. They hold the sprit up fine and the sail
lacing doesn't snag on them.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:55:49 -0700, graeme wrote:
> Joe, that certainly is an elegant arrangement. Do the lacings get
> gaught on the hound?
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn't make it
worse. <Brendan Behan>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
fishing gear is sold, which makes it easier. It is a simple matter to
reach up and ease the lacing past the snotter hound. It is on the aft
side so it does not interfere much.
I think the most elegant part is the snotter itself, a simple line
with a thimble at one end, rigged with a clove hitch. It could be
original but that is doubtful.
Joe T
wrote:
>Yes they could but I use a stiff "salmon line", available where
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
>
> >...The snotter must be rigged after hoisting sail and removed prior
> >to lowering. Reefing would require a similar routine. I accept this
> >inconvience given the ease, simplicity and other advantages of this
> >sail.
>
> Joe, that certainly is an elegant arrangement. Do the lacings get
> caught on the hound?
> Graeme
fishing gear is sold, which makes it easier. It is a simple matter to
reach up and ease the lacing past the snotter hound. It is on the aft
side so it does not interfere much.
I think the most elegant part is the snotter itself, a simple line
with a thimble at one end, rigged with a clove hitch. It could be
original but that is doubtful.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
gaught on the hound?
8ft up on a 20ft luff, so I guess any downward force exerted by
hauling the snotter (which on "Anhinga" is led to the deck) is
going to cause it to act strongly like a cunningham and place camber
in the sail. This might be counter productive to what the snotter
was supposed to do - flatten the sail. If the snotter is not led
down the mast, or if there is a multi-part tackle more or less led
horizontally to the sprit heel with only the working end led down,
then the downward force probably will not be much.
lacing grommet. Perhaps a thimble for a snotter to pass through
could be in the bitter end of the lacing line knot at the mast front?
Graeme
>...The snotter must be rigged after hoisting sail and removed priorJoe, that certainly is an elegant arrangement. Do the lacings get
>tolowering. Reefing would require a similar routine. I accept this
>inconvience given the ease, simplicity and other advantages of this
>sail.
gaught on the hound?
>"Anhinga" has a note stating that the grommet be reinforced. It is
> I am doubtful about the idea of rigging the snotter through a sail
> grommet. An extra strain at that point would likely deform the sail
> shape. However with a bit of ingenuity one might use the grommet
> simply to hold the snotter up while the forward force is taken by a
> separate loosly connected loop around the mast. Then omit the
>hound.
8ft up on a 20ft luff, so I guess any downward force exerted by
hauling the snotter (which on "Anhinga" is led to the deck) is
going to cause it to act strongly like a cunningham and place camber
in the sail. This might be counter productive to what the snotter
was supposed to do - flatten the sail. If the snotter is not led
down the mast, or if there is a multi-part tackle more or less led
horizontally to the sprit heel with only the working end led down,
then the downward force probably will not be much.
>I could do that but it never occured to me before. I think it couldIn Anhinga the reinforced grommet also serves as just another luff
>be made to work. Alas, it is too late for me as the Oldshoe has
>gone toSeattle. Perhaps one of you clever folks with a large LOM
>sail iswilling to try it and report back. Try a square knot around
>the grommet then a bowline slightly loose around the mast, again
>with thethimble up close. Even a driveway sail could prove the
>concept - or not. I think I'll stick with the simpler way.
lacing grommet. Perhaps a thimble for a snotter to pass through
could be in the bitter end of the lacing line knot at the mast front?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
thanks for pointing me to that drawing. I see how that rig works
now. A further query (forgive the pun) I have though is that on the
Query 368 drawing, under magnification, I can make out some dots
near the luff in a line extended through the reef pendants. I think
the dots may represent reef tack cringles (offset between the luff
lacing cringles) perhaps to also accept a snotter hook, or to pass
the snotter through at each reef point. I'm not sure as in the
Payson drawing it seems to just be passed around the mast. The boom
snotter of the "Cold Water Sailboard" is also just passed around the
mast, relying on a sail luff tie to hold it up. What do
you reckon?
it is when reefed - so sheeting angles remain the same, but on the
intrepid "Paloma Blanca" of Roger Keyes there are two snotters
permanently rigged on the sprit so that the sprit moves forward, I
believe.
complication is for. My Micro has hoops on an aluminium tube mast,
and as you are at the mast anyway, to tie in the tack and hand the
halyard and downhaul etc., it is not much extra trouble at all to
unsnap the snotter and help the hoops down over the snotter saddle
on the mast if needed, snap it back on, then tie the the reef tack,
and hoist the sail. With a mast track this operation would be
simpler and could all be jiffied from the cockpit, as on "Paloma
Blanca" (I believe), but without it I don't really see much benefit
to the sprit-hoist part. I'm sure I'm missing something as PCB seems
to have drawn it a bit.
reefed ;)
Graeme
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
> According to App. III of Build The New Instant Boats, the boomChris,
>lift runs to the top of the mast. Mast height is set by belaying
>the lift to the boom. The free end is then used to form the
>snotter. In this set-up, you would need to remove the snotter and
>reset it.
thanks for pointing me to that drawing. I see how that rig works
now. A further query (forgive the pun) I have though is that on the
Query 368 drawing, under magnification, I can make out some dots
near the luff in a line extended through the reef pendants. I think
the dots may represent reef tack cringles (offset between the luff
lacing cringles) perhaps to also accept a snotter hook, or to pass
the snotter through at each reef point. I'm not sure as in the
Payson drawing it seems to just be passed around the mast. The boom
snotter of the "Cold Water Sailboard" is also just passed around the
mast, relying on a sail luff tie to hold it up. What do
you reckon?
>However, you wouldSome do, and some don't. On my Micro the sprit is set to stay where
> have to change it's length to reef anyway.
it is when reefed - so sheeting angles remain the same, but on the
intrepid "Paloma Blanca" of Roger Keyes there are two snotters
permanently rigged on the sprit so that the sprit moves forward, I
believe.
>rig 25
> I used to sail a seabright skiff with a boomed sprit sail as in
> of 100 Small Boat Rigs. The sail was secured to the mast withhoops.
> The snotter lead through a fairlead on the forward side of theboom to a
> cleat on the mast. I never had occasion to reef, but I had todeal with
> the snotter to take in the sail. Since the halyard belayed to anYes, that's right, and that is what I don't understand the extra
> adjacent cleat, I had to be at teh mast anyway.
complication is for. My Micro has hoops on an aluminium tube mast,
and as you are at the mast anyway, to tie in the tack and hand the
halyard and downhaul etc., it is not much extra trouble at all to
unsnap the snotter and help the hoops down over the snotter saddle
on the mast if needed, snap it back on, then tie the the reef tack,
and hoist the sail. With a mast track this operation would be
simpler and could all be jiffied from the cockpit, as on "Paloma
Blanca" (I believe), but without it I don't really see much benefit
to the sprit-hoist part. I'm sure I'm missing something as PCB seems
to have drawn it a bit.
>It was not a real hardship. I suspect the same would attain forOh yes, but at least, I think, the "Rondo ll" sprit sails are not
>reefing.Another interesting take is the sprit rig of Rondo II. It
>has a permanent snotter with a fancy system of adjustable lifts at
>its endThis would surely be tricky. I would have to mock this up
>on my workbench to understand it.
reefed ;)
Graeme
I don't have "Different Boats" so I can only say what I have done.
My small spritsail has no reef capability and is has separate ties to
the mast everything rolls up when done.
The small leg-o-mutton is similar except it has a peak sprit (Bolger's
term).
The larger LOM on my Oldshoe is laced per Payson. It has reef points
but I have not had occasion to use them.
The snotter for all three is a simplified variation on Pete Culler's
as shown in John Burke's book. It has a thimble worked tightly into an
eye at the end of a 1/4" three strand line. In use it is tied in a
clove hitch around the mast with the eye up close. The free end goes
through a slot in the heel of the sprit, through the eye, back through
the slot then gets tucked in.
A small hound on the aft side of the mast holds the snotter up. It
could ideally be placed so the sprit bisects the clue (or peak), which
would equalize the tension on the adjacent sides of the sail.
Practically, it should be kept low enough to reach easily for
adjustments. The snotter could be made longer to lead down to the deck
but I have not, for simplicity and to avoid introducing more line to
streach and need more adjusting.
The snotter must be rigged after hoisting sail and removed prior to
lowering. Reefing would require a similar routine. I accept this
inconvience given the ease, simplicity and other advantages of this sail.
I am doubtful about the idea of rigging the snotter through a sail
grommet. An extra strain at that point would likely deform the sail
shape. However with a bit of ingenuity one might use the grommet
simply to hold the snotter up while the forward force is taken by a
separate loosly connected loop around the mast. Then omit the hound. I
could do that but it never occured to me before. I think it could be
made to work. Alas, it is too late for me as the Oldshoe has gone to
Seattle. Perhaps one of you clever folks with a large LOM sail is
willing to try it and report back. Try a square knot around the
grommet then a bowline slightly loose around the mast, again with the
thimble up close. Even a driveway sail could prove the concept - or
not. I think I'll stick with the simpler way.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
My small spritsail has no reef capability and is has separate ties to
the mast everything rolls up when done.
The small leg-o-mutton is similar except it has a peak sprit (Bolger's
term).
The larger LOM on my Oldshoe is laced per Payson. It has reef points
but I have not had occasion to use them.
The snotter for all three is a simplified variation on Pete Culler's
as shown in John Burke's book. It has a thimble worked tightly into an
eye at the end of a 1/4" three strand line. In use it is tied in a
clove hitch around the mast with the eye up close. The free end goes
through a slot in the heel of the sprit, through the eye, back through
the slot then gets tucked in.
A small hound on the aft side of the mast holds the snotter up. It
could ideally be placed so the sprit bisects the clue (or peak), which
would equalize the tension on the adjacent sides of the sail.
Practically, it should be kept low enough to reach easily for
adjustments. The snotter could be made longer to lead down to the deck
but I have not, for simplicity and to avoid introducing more line to
streach and need more adjusting.
The snotter must be rigged after hoisting sail and removed prior to
lowering. Reefing would require a similar routine. I accept this
inconvience given the ease, simplicity and other advantages of this sail.
I am doubtful about the idea of rigging the snotter through a sail
grommet. An extra strain at that point would likely deform the sail
shape. However with a bit of ingenuity one might use the grommet
simply to hold the snotter up while the forward force is taken by a
separate loosly connected loop around the mast. Then omit the hound. I
could do that but it never occured to me before. I think it could be
made to work. Alas, it is too late for me as the Oldshoe has gone to
Seattle. Perhaps one of you clever folks with a large LOM sail is
willing to try it and report back. Try a square knot around the
grommet then a bowline slightly loose around the mast, again with the
thimble up close. Even a driveway sail could prove the concept - or
not. I think I'll stick with the simpler way.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>
> In the "Query" #368 plan, "Different Boats" p187, there is a detail
> note: "See #364 for lacing & sprit lift snotter". Now, the lacing is
> explained by Payson in his "Build the New Instant Boats" because he
> thought it worked so well on "Query" he just had to pass it on, but
> how does the sprit lift-snotter rig and how is it handed?
>
> It is shown on a few boat designs but not in much detail. It is
> pretty easy to see how the heel of the sprit is attached by a tackle
> to the mast on some of the bigger boats, including those with half
> wishbone booms like "Wolf Trap". These sails however are held to the
> mast by track; their hoisting doesn't interfere.
>
> What is not clear to me is how the heel of the sprit is pulled
> horizontally back to the mast where the sails are held to the mast
> by ties or lacing. If a sprit snotter is led through a bullseye or
> around the mast then it would have to be undone and rerigged every
> time the sail was lowered or raised in reefing, and so it seems to
> me there is little advantage in having the sprit-lift part. In the
> laced on sail of "Anhinga" #484 the mast end of the snotter is held
> up and to the mast by fixing it to a sail luff grommet. Sail, sprit,
> and all come down together. #484 doesn't show reef points but it
> would be an easy thing to attach the snotter by snaphook to a higher
> grommet.
>
> What use is the lift part then when the sail is fixed by lacing, or,
> say, hoops; as you seem to have to go to the mast and re-rig the
> snotter part anyway?
>
> It is probably all self evident in the explanatory #364 sail plan as
> noted, but I can't seem to find that one. Does anyone know where
> that design can be seen?
>
> Cheers
> Graeme
>
Graeme,
According to App. III of Build The New Instant Boats, the boom lift runs
to the top of the mast. Mast height is set by belaying the lift to the
boom. The free end is then used to form the snotter. In this set-up,
you would need to remove the snotter and reset it. However, you would
have to change it's length to reef anyway.
I used to sail a seabright skiff with a boomed sprit sail as in rig 25
of 100 Small Boat Rigs. The sail was secured to the mast with hoops.
The snotter lead through a fairlead on the forward side of the boom to a
cleat on the mast. I never had occasion to reef, but I had to deal with
the snotter to take in the sail. Since the halyard belayed to an
adjacent cleat, I had to be at teh mast anyway. It was not a real
hardship. I suspect the same would attain for reefing.
Another interesting take is the sprit rig of Rondo II. It has a
permanent snotter with a fancy system of adjustable lifts at its end.
This would surely be tricky. I would have to mock this up on my
workbench to understand it.
V/R
Chris
graeme19121984 wrote:
According to App. III of Build The New Instant Boats, the boom lift runs
to the top of the mast. Mast height is set by belaying the lift to the
boom. The free end is then used to form the snotter. In this set-up,
you would need to remove the snotter and reset it. However, you would
have to change it's length to reef anyway.
I used to sail a seabright skiff with a boomed sprit sail as in rig 25
of 100 Small Boat Rigs. The sail was secured to the mast with hoops.
The snotter lead through a fairlead on the forward side of the boom to a
cleat on the mast. I never had occasion to reef, but I had to deal with
the snotter to take in the sail. Since the halyard belayed to an
adjacent cleat, I had to be at teh mast anyway. It was not a real
hardship. I suspect the same would attain for reefing.
Another interesting take is the sprit rig of Rondo II. It has a
permanent snotter with a fancy system of adjustable lifts at its end.
This would surely be tricky. I would have to mock this up on my
workbench to understand it.
V/R
Chris
graeme19121984 wrote:
> In the "Query" #368 plan, "Different Boats" p187, there is a detail
> note: "See #364 for lacing & sprit lift snotter". Now, the lacing is
> explained by Payson in his "Build the New Instant Boats" because he
> thought it worked so well on "Query" he just had to pass it on, but
> how does the sprit lift-snotter rig and how is it handed?
>
> It is shown on a few boat designs but not in much detail. It is
> pretty easy to see how the heel of the sprit is attached by a tackle
> to the mast on some of the bigger boats, including those with half
> wishbone booms like "Wolf Trap". These sails however are held to the
> mast by track; their hoisting doesn't interfere.
>
>
In the "Query" #368 plan, "Different Boats" p187, there is a detail
note: "See #364 for lacing & sprit lift snotter". Now, the lacing is
explained by Payson in his "Build the New Instant Boats" because he
thought it worked so well on "Query" he just had to pass it on, but
how does the sprit lift-snotter rig and how is it handed?
It is shown on a few boat designs but not in much detail. It is
pretty easy to see how the heel of the sprit is attached by a tackle
to the mast on some of the bigger boats, including those with half
wishbone booms like "Wolf Trap". These sails however are held to the
mast by track; their hoisting doesn't interfere.
What is not clear to me is how the heel of the sprit is pulled
horizontally back to the mast where the sails are held to the mast
by ties or lacing. If a sprit snotter is led through a bullseye or
around the mast then it would have to be undone and rerigged every
time the sail was lowered or raised in reefing, and so it seems to
me there is little advantage in having the sprit-lift part. In the
laced on sail of "Anhinga" #484 the mast end of the snotter is held
up and to the mast by fixing it to a sail luff grommet. Sail, sprit,
and all come down together. #484 doesn't show reef points but it
would be an easy thing to attach the snotter by snaphook to a higher
grommet.
What use is the lift part then when the sail is fixed by lacing, or,
say, hoops; as you seem to have to go to the mast and re-rig the
snotter part anyway?
It is probably all self evident in the explanatory #364 sail plan as
noted, but I can't seem to find that one. Does anyone know where
that design can be seen?
Cheers
Graeme
note: "See #364 for lacing & sprit lift snotter". Now, the lacing is
explained by Payson in his "Build the New Instant Boats" because he
thought it worked so well on "Query" he just had to pass it on, but
how does the sprit lift-snotter rig and how is it handed?
It is shown on a few boat designs but not in much detail. It is
pretty easy to see how the heel of the sprit is attached by a tackle
to the mast on some of the bigger boats, including those with half
wishbone booms like "Wolf Trap". These sails however are held to the
mast by track; their hoisting doesn't interfere.
What is not clear to me is how the heel of the sprit is pulled
horizontally back to the mast where the sails are held to the mast
by ties or lacing. If a sprit snotter is led through a bullseye or
around the mast then it would have to be undone and rerigged every
time the sail was lowered or raised in reefing, and so it seems to
me there is little advantage in having the sprit-lift part. In the
laced on sail of "Anhinga" #484 the mast end of the snotter is held
up and to the mast by fixing it to a sail luff grommet. Sail, sprit,
and all come down together. #484 doesn't show reef points but it
would be an easy thing to attach the snotter by snaphook to a higher
grommet.
What use is the lift part then when the sail is fixed by lacing, or,
say, hoops; as you seem to have to go to the mast and re-rig the
snotter part anyway?
It is probably all self evident in the explanatory #364 sail plan as
noted, but I can't seem to find that one. Does anyone know where
that design can be seen?
Cheers
Graeme