Re: Chebacco Info
Thanks all for your responses.
It appears that Windward Wren has much more flair and a narrower beam
to help contribute to the lower internal volume.
I am familiar with Karl Stambaugh's designs -- I have his full
catalog
from 2 years ago. I have considered the Catbird 18 -- it fits a
number of criteria such as micro cruiser, good looks, volume,
and a trailerable weight. But from the study plans it appears to
have
an 8 foot wide flat bottom which would seem to suck a huge amount of
sea/lake along with her. And the sail plan has a pair of
narrow-headed sprits. In 100 Rigs Bolger writes that they are
difficult for the sailmaker to make set well. So this model appears
to me to be somewhat slow.
Lose the masts and figure out a protected outboard well and the
Catbird 18 would be a wonderful micro motor cruiser -- a whole line
of
which Karl has done quite smartly.
I purchased Karl's Windward 17 plans two years ago and had him custom
design a bigger sail plan of 105 sq.ft. for our Arkansas summers but
ended up building a self-modified Bolger Junebug. I really
appreciate
Karl's work.
Wittolz's plywood cat have lots of sail and a v-bottom, appearing to
be a more powerful sailor. Study plans of Good Omen are at
http://www.boatdesigns.com/-- Go to boat designs by category -- go
to cat boats. Details like edge glued plywood I would ignore, but
would use the lines, scantlings, frame locations and such to build it
on frame on a backbone.
I appreciate Jamie's comment, "A dinghy on steroids", and it is very
helpful to get such support with so many individuals building
Chebaccos. I haven't seen a Wittholz support group!
Thanks again,
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas
It appears that Windward Wren has much more flair and a narrower beam
to help contribute to the lower internal volume.
I am familiar with Karl Stambaugh's designs -- I have his full
catalog
from 2 years ago. I have considered the Catbird 18 -- it fits a
number of criteria such as micro cruiser, good looks, volume,
and a trailerable weight. But from the study plans it appears to
have
an 8 foot wide flat bottom which would seem to suck a huge amount of
sea/lake along with her. And the sail plan has a pair of
narrow-headed sprits. In 100 Rigs Bolger writes that they are
difficult for the sailmaker to make set well. So this model appears
to me to be somewhat slow.
Lose the masts and figure out a protected outboard well and the
Catbird 18 would be a wonderful micro motor cruiser -- a whole line
of
which Karl has done quite smartly.
I purchased Karl's Windward 17 plans two years ago and had him custom
design a bigger sail plan of 105 sq.ft. for our Arkansas summers but
ended up building a self-modified Bolger Junebug. I really
appreciate
Karl's work.
Wittolz's plywood cat have lots of sail and a v-bottom, appearing to
be a more powerful sailor. Study plans of Good Omen are at
http://www.boatdesigns.com/-- Go to boat designs by category -- go
to cat boats. Details like edge glued plywood I would ignore, but
would use the lines, scantlings, frame locations and such to build it
on frame on a backbone.
I appreciate Jamie's comment, "A dinghy on steroids", and it is very
helpful to get such support with so many individuals building
Chebaccos. I haven't seen a Wittholz support group!
Thanks again,
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "LEA, PHILLIP B" <plea@e...> wrote:
and this is a Bolger list, but be sure you look at Karl Stambough's
boats at
http://www.cmdboats.com/
I wish he had more of his designs illustrated. One wonders why not.
The reason I bring it up is that if you want a catboat-like catboat
that is probably easier to build than the Witholtz and possibly more
cabin than the Chebacco, you should consider Catbird 18. There's no
picture on the website, but you can get the general flavor from the
Catbird24, which is illustrated. He has several rigs for each.
Peter
> I am evaluating designs for our next boat and Chebacco is at thetop of the
> list.I suppose that the last thing you need is more designs to evaluate,
and this is a Bolger list, but be sure you look at Karl Stambough's
boats at
http://www.cmdboats.com/
I wish he had more of his designs illustrated. One wonders why not.
The reason I bring it up is that if you want a catboat-like catboat
that is probably easier to build than the Witholtz and possibly more
cabin than the Chebacco, you should consider Catbird 18. There's no
picture on the website, but you can get the general flavor from the
Catbird24, which is illustrated. He has several rigs for each.
Peter
Hi,
Jamie and Fraser have just about covered all the points Phil has made, and I
am in total agreement with both of them.
lead ballast in the ideal position. The original owner, Sister Krista Mote
asked for the ballast. Tim has since removed the ballast, I believe. It'd
give you a little extra cabin space, but not a lot.
water does come into the for'ard section, like Jamie, I've left out the
limber holes and just sponge it out occasionally.
Lotsa space there for oars, fenders, and other miscellaneous stuff.
sailing single-handed, though, and go forward to the mast, the change of
trim lifts the OB out of the water (she's a LIGHT boat) and at times like
that I've sworn to buy a long-shaft next time. The advantage of a short
shaft is that it's protected by the keel/rudder from accidental grounding.
You pays your money . . .
in light airs. Her ability to carry canvas is very sensitive to the number
of people aboard. Single-handed, I need to reef above F3. With 3 aboard,
she'll carry full sail to F4 and maybe even a little beyond. As Jamie Orr
once said, "She's just a sailing dinghy on steroids".
According to a scale model I built, she'll capsize if her mast hits the
water. Ballast makes little difference. On the other hand, nobody's ever
gone over in one.
she's meant for. She becomes a bit of a handful in strong winds, especially
when sailing single-handed. She's certainly not a boat for going into the
open ocean unless you have a good, reliable, favourable weather forecast.
Great for estuaries and semi-sheltered waters, though.
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas
Jamie and Fraser have just about covered all the points Phil has made, and I
am in total agreement with both of them.
>Is there a bridge deck, or is one detailed in the plans? Chebacco appearswith
>to have a relatively long cockpit and short cabin. IMHO, a bridge deck
>quarter berths would seem to me to give back some cabin space. Comments?Tim Smith's LARK has a bridge deck - originally used to store 300 pounds of
lead ballast in the ideal position. The original owner, Sister Krista Mote
asked for the ballast. Tim has since removed the ballast, I believe. It'd
give you a little extra cabin space, but not a lot.
>Does the mast go into the cabin or into a separate forward compartment?Jamie's answered this one. I've never used a boot, and though a little
>Does the mast need a boot?
water does come into the for'ard section, like Jamie, I've left out the
limber holes and just sponge it out occasionally.
>If there is no forward compartment, where do you store ground tackle?I keep mine under the side benches (accessible from within the cabin).
Lotsa space there for oars, fenders, and other miscellaneous stuff.
>Is a long shaft outboard necessary, i.e., can one use a short shaft? (readI've got a short shaft for mine, which is fine, most of the time. If I'm
>this as "tell me I can use the motor I own.")
sailing single-handed, though, and go forward to the mast, the change of
trim lifts the OB out of the water (she's a LIGHT boat) and at times like
that I've sworn to buy a long-shaft next time. The advantage of a short
shaft is that it's protected by the keel/rudder from accidental grounding.
You pays your money . . .
>Where is the gas tank secured?In the outboard draining area at the stern.
>Would any experienced designer or sailor care to conjecture on sailingFraser has said it all. I'd emphasise, though, that Chebacco is at her best
>abilities
in light airs. Her ability to carry canvas is very sensitive to the number
of people aboard. Single-handed, I need to reef above F3. With 3 aboard,
she'll carry full sail to F4 and maybe even a little beyond. As Jamie Orr
once said, "She's just a sailing dinghy on steroids".
According to a scale model I built, she'll capsize if her mast hits the
water. Ballast makes little difference. On the other hand, nobody's ever
gone over in one.
>Who will bang the drum for Bolger?I will - though not blindly. Chebacco is a superb boat in the conditions
she's meant for. She becomes a bit of a handful in strong winds, especially
when sailing single-handed. She's certainly not a boat for going into the
open ocean unless you have a good, reliable, favourable weather forecast.
Great for estuaries and semi-sheltered waters, though.
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas
>Well, I've seen a Witholtz cat, so there. And I am a designer with
> I've seen a Winter Wren. It has a lot less interior space.
> I've sailed plenty, but I'm not an experienced designer, sorry.
zero (0) completed designs to my credit.
I also have the plans to a smaller Witholtz cat (Corvus, I think) and
I have the following comments. Withotz designed his boats, not just
before the stitch and glue era, not just before the epoxy era, but
before the modern plywood boat era. They were very concerned at that
time with protecting the edges of the plywood. So at every junction
of ply, he drew in a spline to be weldwood-glued against endgrain of
the plywood.
Perhaps the plans have been updated, but I doubt it. Witholtz plans
are very detailed and there is a lot of detail work in the boats as
drawn - toe rails, hand rails, coamings, etc. It adds to the work,
but makes a well-finished boat. I think, but I don't know, that the
17' boat is the original "Marston Cat" designed for a professional
boatbuilder of that name who built it as a stock item. There are
still some around.
The difference between the Witholtz cat and the Chebacco is shown in
the displacement. I suspect that Chebacco weighs less than half.
Thats 50% less to buy, saw, fit, and finish. The lighter boat will
sail faster most of the time, be more fun to sail most of the time,
and be very much easier to trailer (stepping the Witholtz cat's mast
would require special gear). The heavier boat will have more room,
and a steadier motion.
With the Witholtz, you will wind up with an inboard, or a ob on a
bracket. The Chebacco's shipshape ob well is a really good thing, one
of the PCB's best ideas as far as trailerables are concerned. Note
that he uses the shallow inboard rudder and ob well whenever it meets
the need which suggests that he feels it is an improvement over the
outboard rudder and ob-on-a-bracket.
And that's enough off-the-cuff opinions for this afternoon.
Peter
On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, LEA, PHILLIP B wrote:
I've sailed plenty, but I'm not an experienced designer, sorry.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> Would any experienced designer or sailor care to conjecture on sailingI've seen a Winter Wren. It has a lot less interior space.
> abilities, such as speed, stability, windward ability, heavy / light
> air performance of these three lovely boats: Charles Wittolz's GOOD
> OMEN (17-1 x 7-10 x 4-3, 220 sq.ft., centerboard, deadrise, Cape Cod
> gaff cat, 500# ballast); Sam Devlin's WINTER WREN 2 (18-8 x 6-10 x 3,
> 176 sq.ft., off-centerboard, ¾ masthead sloop, 685# ballast); and
> Chebacco? Sorry have not done the metric conversions for the more
> enlightened civilizations.
I've sailed plenty, but I'm not an experienced designer, sorry.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
I am evaluating designs for our next boat and Chebacco is at the top of the
list. I have read Bill Samson's excellent newsletters but am looking for
more information. Would someone knowledgeable of this design please answer
some questions.
Is there a bridge deck, or is one detailed in the plans? Chebacco appears
to have a relatively long cockpit and short cabin. IMHO, a bridge deck with
quarter berths would seem to me to give back some cabin space. Comments?
Off-centerboard? How does the interior arrangement work?
I've read comments about the box keel. Is it empty, ballasted, a great
place to store 1 gallon (4 liter) water jugs, or keep the battery(ies)? Is
there any ballast at all?
Does the mast go into the cabin or into a separate forward compartment?
Does the mast need a boot?
If there is no forward compartment, where do you store ground tackle?
Is a long shaft outboard necessary, i.e., can one use a short shaft? (read
this as "tell me I can use the motor I own.")
Where is the gas tank secured?
Would any experienced designer or sailor care to conjecture on sailing
abilities, such as speed, stability, windward ability, heavy / light air
performance of these three lovely boats: Charles Wittolz's GOOD OMEN (17-1
x 7-10 x 4-3, 220 sq.ft., centerboard, deadrise, Cape Cod gaff cat, 500#
ballast); Sam Devlin's WINTER WREN 2 (18-8 x 6-10 x 3, 176 sq.ft.,
off-centerboard, ¾ masthead sloop, 685# ballast); and Chebacco? Sorry have
not done the metric conversions for the more enlightened civilizations.
Who will bang the drum for Bolger?
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas
list. I have read Bill Samson's excellent newsletters but am looking for
more information. Would someone knowledgeable of this design please answer
some questions.
Is there a bridge deck, or is one detailed in the plans? Chebacco appears
to have a relatively long cockpit and short cabin. IMHO, a bridge deck with
quarter berths would seem to me to give back some cabin space. Comments?
Off-centerboard? How does the interior arrangement work?
I've read comments about the box keel. Is it empty, ballasted, a great
place to store 1 gallon (4 liter) water jugs, or keep the battery(ies)? Is
there any ballast at all?
Does the mast go into the cabin or into a separate forward compartment?
Does the mast need a boot?
If there is no forward compartment, where do you store ground tackle?
Is a long shaft outboard necessary, i.e., can one use a short shaft? (read
this as "tell me I can use the motor I own.")
Where is the gas tank secured?
Would any experienced designer or sailor care to conjecture on sailing
abilities, such as speed, stability, windward ability, heavy / light air
performance of these three lovely boats: Charles Wittolz's GOOD OMEN (17-1
x 7-10 x 4-3, 220 sq.ft., centerboard, deadrise, Cape Cod gaff cat, 500#
ballast); Sam Devlin's WINTER WREN 2 (18-8 x 6-10 x 3, 176 sq.ft.,
off-centerboard, ¾ masthead sloop, 685# ballast); and Chebacco? Sorry have
not done the metric conversions for the more enlightened civilizations.
Who will bang the drum for Bolger?
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas