Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?
On the subject of crew position, I agree with the notion that having
the crew a bit too far forward is worse that having it aft. As
designed, crew weight causes the boat to pivot about a point near the
forward end of the lwl, and the new immersed shape is a heavier
displacement version of the original. (Note PCB kept the stern up out
of the water to make this possible.) I found the boat went upwind very
well with skipper plus two lightish crew, or one heavy one. The low
seating position is a plus.
I only sailed the boat solo once or twice, and was surprised by how
quickly she heeled with a light load.
If you look at the plans carefully, you will note the extreme
simplicity that PCB had in mind. He did not draw any blocks or
mechanical advantages, leeboard pendants, lifts or stops for the
swinging rudder blade, etc. Partly, I think this was to save drawing
board time. Partly, just for simplicity. My boat took 300-400 hours by
a average-skilled professional in a well equipped boatshop.
the crew a bit too far forward is worse that having it aft. As
designed, crew weight causes the boat to pivot about a point near the
forward end of the lwl, and the new immersed shape is a heavier
displacement version of the original. (Note PCB kept the stern up out
of the water to make this possible.) I found the boat went upwind very
well with skipper plus two lightish crew, or one heavy one. The low
seating position is a plus.
I only sailed the boat solo once or twice, and was surprised by how
quickly she heeled with a light load.
If you look at the plans carefully, you will note the extreme
simplicity that PCB had in mind. He did not draw any blocks or
mechanical advantages, leeboard pendants, lifts or stops for the
swinging rudder blade, etc. Partly, I think this was to save drawing
board time. Partly, just for simplicity. My boat took 300-400 hours by
a average-skilled professional in a well equipped boatshop.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
Graeme
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
><long sigh> Me too.
>I know that Cynthia J's looks were (and are) one of the main
>reasons that I continue to admire this design.
Graeme
Graeme--
It would be nice if all the things we want could be combined in a very short boat. Here are the problems that must be addressed in very smallboats.
1) On small boats, crew weight makes up a very large portion of the boat's total displacement. Placement of crew weight has a major impact on performance.
2) A 'cabin' needs to be long enough so that an adult can lie down--for average folks, this is around 75 ". If two people are to sleep in the cabin, the sleeping area should be between 42'' and 48' wide at the head and at least 36" wide at the foot.
3) There are three possible ways to get a decent cabin in a very short boat. You can have a cockpit behind the cabin; this will put crew weight in the back of the boat, possibly trimming the boat down by the stern. You can stack the cockpit on top of part of the cabin (examples are Peephen, Lynx, and the origunal West Wight Potter). You can combine the cabin and cockpit, sailing from inside the cabin (Birdwatcher, Supermouse, and several of Michalak's designs).
4) One of the things that drove the Cynthis J design was to have a very simple boat which was styled to look sort of like a Cape Cod Catboat. (And I think that PCB was very successful in this regard.) I know that Cynthia J's looks were (and are) one of the main reasons that I continue to admire this design. The desire for this catboat effect precludes a Birdwatcher cabin (which PCB tried, without success on the Flatfish design).
If I were going to play naval architect and revamp Cynthia J, I would move the main bulkhead forward and add a bulkhead and deck to the aft end of the cockpit. This would move crew weight forward. I would then close in the seats and cut holes in the bulkhead to create two quarter berths (these would not be very satisfactory and would often be damp, but what can you expect). Lastly, I would beef up the bottom to as much as an inch, adding a fair amount of ballast. Even with all this, Cynthis J is a sailor for sheltered waters, and I would consider her a character daysailor with the capability for an occassional one night cruise.
JohnT
It would be nice if all the things we want could be combined in a very short boat. Here are the problems that must be addressed in very smallboats.
1) On small boats, crew weight makes up a very large portion of the boat's total displacement. Placement of crew weight has a major impact on performance.
2) A 'cabin' needs to be long enough so that an adult can lie down--for average folks, this is around 75 ". If two people are to sleep in the cabin, the sleeping area should be between 42'' and 48' wide at the head and at least 36" wide at the foot.
3) There are three possible ways to get a decent cabin in a very short boat. You can have a cockpit behind the cabin; this will put crew weight in the back of the boat, possibly trimming the boat down by the stern. You can stack the cockpit on top of part of the cabin (examples are Peephen, Lynx, and the origunal West Wight Potter). You can combine the cabin and cockpit, sailing from inside the cabin (Birdwatcher, Supermouse, and several of Michalak's designs).
4) One of the things that drove the Cynthis J design was to have a very simple boat which was styled to look sort of like a Cape Cod Catboat. (And I think that PCB was very successful in this regard.) I know that Cynthia J's looks were (and are) one of the main reasons that I continue to admire this design. The desire for this catboat effect precludes a Birdwatcher cabin (which PCB tried, without success on the Flatfish design).
If I were going to play naval architect and revamp Cynthia J, I would move the main bulkhead forward and add a bulkhead and deck to the aft end of the cockpit. This would move crew weight forward. I would then close in the seats and cut holes in the bulkhead to create two quarter berths (these would not be very satisfactory and would often be damp, but what can you expect). Lastly, I would beef up the bottom to as much as an inch, adding a fair amount of ballast. Even with all this, Cynthis J is a sailor for sheltered waters, and I would consider her a character daysailor with the capability for an occassional one night cruise.
JohnT
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:51 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?
Ok, Ive read that MAIB article now and it hasn't changed my
perspective on Cynthia J very much, if any. The boat would still be
better, from a self rescuing and comfort point of view, for updates
made along the lines of Otter ll and similar. Yep, there is little
point in modifying Micro in the current Cynthia J direction, and
losing the stability and offshore capability, but Cynthia J would
benefit enormously from small attention to bouyancy and ballast.
PCB suggests the increased bottom thickness, and some extra
flotation in the quarters, also the 290lbs water ballast Rick
included to stop her going over and flooding like Martha Jane un-
revised, and Anhinga. I think a bow well would be better than a mast
slot alone as he suggests. The forward frame, middle bulkheads,
companion way, and storage mentioned in earlier posts would be
worthwhile little modifications IMHO.
In this article I think PCB looks at this hull as a big family's day
sailing dinghy rather than the comfy camp cruiser she might be. He
observes that more than one up, indeed with only two crew, it is
hard to trim the boat as it should be. If the seating places two
crew's weight too far aft of the C.O.B might not correct placement
of stuff stored in the cuddy balance it?
On the other hand, if the cabin is shortened to allow forward
extension of the side seats a comfortable cabin is lost for little
gain. This hull is not of his advanced sharpie type as PCB implies
in the article. It is a flat iron, as I understand the term. It
follows H I Chapelle's doctrine for sharpies of a long, dead-flat
run to the turn of the bottom. As such, crew weight placed further
than just a bit forward of where the seats are now will have the
undesirable effect of burying the chine forward with all the bad
follow-on effects that PCB has warned of so often. So, if crew sits
forward extra weight will have to be placed in the stern, and the
cabin is gone. With more crew this could be easily arranged, and
would suit, but it then is a very high sided dinghy.
As a cuddy camper this boat would be so good. Awaken, coffee, then
so easily bulk sail is hoisted to ghost off on the day's adventure
with the breeze hardly stirred in morning's first light.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
> ...In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday, PCB says he
would now
> give the boat a mast slot like the Chebacco, etc. I did find
stepping
> the mast to be a little closer to the end of my range of
capabilities
> than I liked. He also suggested reducing the size of the cabin.
>
> As to major modifications to the design, I wonder if it makes much
> sense to take that approach. PCB's ply boat techniques have
changed a
> lot, and a new design to the same spec would be a lot different.
And
> there is little point in modifying it in the direction of Micro.
>
> Peter
>
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Ok, Ive read that MAIB article now and it hasn't changed my
perspective on Cynthia J very much, if any. The boat would still be
better, from a self rescuing and comfort point of view, for updates
made along the lines of Otter ll and similar. Yep, there is little
point in modifying Micro in the current Cynthia J direction, and
losing the stability and offshore capability, but Cynthia J would
benefit enormously from small attention to bouyancy and ballast.
PCB suggests the increased bottom thickness, and some extra
flotation in the quarters, also the 290lbs water ballast Rick
included to stop her going over and flooding like Martha Jane un-
revised, and Anhinga. I think a bow well would be better than a mast
slot alone as he suggests. The forward frame, middle bulkheads,
companion way, and storage mentioned in earlier posts would be
worthwhile little modifications IMHO.
In this article I think PCB looks at this hull as a big family's day
sailing dinghy rather than the comfy camp cruiser she might be. He
observes that more than one up, indeed with only two crew, it is
hard to trim the boat as it should be. If the seating places two
crew's weight too far aft of the C.O.B might not correct placement
of stuff stored in the cuddy balance it?
On the other hand, if the cabin is shortened to allow forward
extension of the side seats a comfortable cabin is lost for little
gain. This hull is not of his advanced sharpie type as PCB implies
in the article. It is a flat iron, as I understand the term. It
follows H I Chapelle's doctrine for sharpies of a long, dead-flat
run to the turn of the bottom. As such, crew weight placed further
than just a bit forward of where the seats are now will have the
undesirable effect of burying the chine forward with all the bad
follow-on effects that PCB has warned of so often. So, if crew sits
forward extra weight will have to be placed in the stern, and the
cabin is gone. With more crew this could be easily arranged, and
would suit, but it then is a very high sided dinghy.
As a cuddy camper this boat would be so good. Awaken, coffee, then
so easily bulk sail is hoisted to ghost off on the day's adventure
with the breeze hardly stirred in morning's first light.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
perspective on Cynthia J very much, if any. The boat would still be
better, from a self rescuing and comfort point of view, for updates
made along the lines of Otter ll and similar. Yep, there is little
point in modifying Micro in the current Cynthia J direction, and
losing the stability and offshore capability, but Cynthia J would
benefit enormously from small attention to bouyancy and ballast.
PCB suggests the increased bottom thickness, and some extra
flotation in the quarters, also the 290lbs water ballast Rick
included to stop her going over and flooding like Martha Jane un-
revised, and Anhinga. I think a bow well would be better than a mast
slot alone as he suggests. The forward frame, middle bulkheads,
companion way, and storage mentioned in earlier posts would be
worthwhile little modifications IMHO.
In this article I think PCB looks at this hull as a big family's day
sailing dinghy rather than the comfy camp cruiser she might be. He
observes that more than one up, indeed with only two crew, it is
hard to trim the boat as it should be. If the seating places two
crew's weight too far aft of the C.O.B might not correct placement
of stuff stored in the cuddy balance it?
On the other hand, if the cabin is shortened to allow forward
extension of the side seats a comfortable cabin is lost for little
gain. This hull is not of his advanced sharpie type as PCB implies
in the article. It is a flat iron, as I understand the term. It
follows H I Chapelle's doctrine for sharpies of a long, dead-flat
run to the turn of the bottom. As such, crew weight placed further
than just a bit forward of where the seats are now will have the
undesirable effect of burying the chine forward with all the bad
follow-on effects that PCB has warned of so often. So, if crew sits
forward extra weight will have to be placed in the stern, and the
cabin is gone. With more crew this could be easily arranged, and
would suit, but it then is a very high sided dinghy.
As a cuddy camper this boat would be so good. Awaken, coffee, then
so easily bulk sail is hoisted to ghost off on the day's adventure
with the breeze hardly stirred in morning's first light.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
> ...In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday, PCB says hewould now
> give the boat a mast slot like the Chebacco, etc. I did findstepping
> the mast to be a little closer to the end of my range ofcapabilities
> than I liked. He also suggested reducing the size of the cabin.changed a
>
> As to major modifications to the design, I wonder if it makes much
> sense to take that approach. PCB's ply boat techniques have
> lot, and a new design to the same spec would be a lot different.And
> there is little point in modifying it in the direction of Micro.
>
> Peter
>
Gene,
Here's a rough comparison of two "flat irons" as is. No account
taken of where the c.o.g. in each boat actually is. 400lbs added for
crew and stuff. Michalak's estimate used for total constructed boat
weight of 35 lbs and 50 lbs per sheet respectively for 1/4 or 3/8
ply. No rig weight included. Go stormin' in CJ? Easy mod?
Cynthia J
Displacement to LWL 130
Hull Speed 5.01
Sail Area to Displacement 27.48
LWL to Beam 2.55
Motion Comfort 8.96
Capsize Ratio 2.37
Sailing Category racer
Pounds/Inch 275
Storm Petrel
Displacement to LWL 130
Hull Speed 5.19
Sail Area to Displacement 13.3
LWL to Beam 2.9
Motion Comfort 10.95
Capsize Ratio 2.08
Sailing Category cruiser/racer
Pounds/Inch 277
http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gene T." <goldranger02-boats@...>
wrote:
Here's a rough comparison of two "flat irons" as is. No account
taken of where the c.o.g. in each boat actually is. 400lbs added for
crew and stuff. Michalak's estimate used for total constructed boat
weight of 35 lbs and 50 lbs per sheet respectively for 1/4 or 3/8
ply. No rig weight included. Go stormin' in CJ? Easy mod?
Cynthia J
Displacement to LWL 130
Hull Speed 5.01
Sail Area to Displacement 27.48
LWL to Beam 2.55
Motion Comfort 8.96
Capsize Ratio 2.37
Sailing Category racer
Pounds/Inch 275
Storm Petrel
Displacement to LWL 130
Hull Speed 5.19
Sail Area to Displacement 13.3
LWL to Beam 2.9
Motion Comfort 10.95
Capsize Ratio 2.08
Sailing Category cruiser/racer
Pounds/Inch 277
http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gene T." <goldranger02-boats@...>
wrote:
>plywood
> Graeme,
> Doubling or trippling the bottom will only help righting on
> a boat that is not flooded. Once the boat is filled, all that
> becomes flotation and will have the opposite effect. I think youneed
> some dense weight down there, lead, steel, at least epoxy filledwith
> something heavy. Then extra flotation to make sure you don't goright
> to the bottom! 8^D
>
> Sincerely,
>
> "A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
> built it will not float ---- "
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
subscribe. This is a must read. Then I'll read again your considered
Cynthia J observations based on use, here, and in the files.
Cheers
Graeme
>Peter, thanks for this news, you've given cause for me now to
> ...In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday,...
subscribe. This is a must read. Then I'll read again your considered
Cynthia J observations based on use, here, and in the files.
Cheers
Graeme
As a former Cynthia J. owner, I have mixed bag of comments and
reactions. I never capsized mine, but I realized that it would be a
major mess if it ever happened. My boat had the flotation as designed,
and eventually I bought, but never installed, some additional
flotation. My idea was to run a section of the rigid baulk as
purchased vertically in the cabin. I suppose that would have been
about 10" x2' section, about 3' long. My idea was that it would lift
the boat while it was on its side. Just a guess; no calculations, no
experience. In a letter to me when I bought the plans, PCB suggested
lining the interior of the cabin top with foam.
As to standing on a leeboard to right the boat, I think that could
result in major damage.
In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday, PCB says he would now
give the boat a mast slot like the Chebacco, etc. I did find stepping
the mast to be a little closer to the end of my range of capabilities
than I liked. He also suggested reducing the size of the cabin.
As to major modifications to the design, I wonder if it makes much
sense to take that approach. PCB's ply boat techniques have changed a
lot, and a new design to the same spec would be a lot different. And
there is little point in modifying it in the direction of Micro.
Peter
reactions. I never capsized mine, but I realized that it would be a
major mess if it ever happened. My boat had the flotation as designed,
and eventually I bought, but never installed, some additional
flotation. My idea was to run a section of the rigid baulk as
purchased vertically in the cabin. I suppose that would have been
about 10" x2' section, about 3' long. My idea was that it would lift
the boat while it was on its side. Just a guess; no calculations, no
experience. In a letter to me when I bought the plans, PCB suggested
lining the interior of the cabin top with foam.
As to standing on a leeboard to right the boat, I think that could
result in major damage.
In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday, PCB says he would now
give the boat a mast slot like the Chebacco, etc. I did find stepping
the mast to be a little closer to the end of my range of capabilities
than I liked. He also suggested reducing the size of the cabin.
As to major modifications to the design, I wonder if it makes much
sense to take that approach. PCB's ply boat techniques have changed a
lot, and a new design to the same spec would be a lot different. And
there is little point in modifying it in the direction of Micro.
Peter
This is an example of conflicting demands. Big, deep, open cockpits are wonderful things for a crew to enjoy, but they are subject to flooding in a knockdown or from a breaking wave. Bolger has expressed concerns about what would happen if Rozinante were flooded (he thinks she would sink due to the weight of her ballast). Possible solutions to the vulnerability of large, open cockpits are: a) a large volume of enclosed, watertight cabin and/or bulkheaded and decked area behind the cockpit; or b) enclosing the cockpit in a Birdwatcher type cabin.
I wish there was a way to have all the features that I want in a boat with none of the drawbcks, but I haven't found it yet!
John T
I wish there was a way to have all the features that I want in a boat with none of the drawbcks, but I haven't found it yet!
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood
needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance),
and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat,
maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe
and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).
>
> JohnT
Hi John,
all you say is true, and the increased plywood pile would nearly
complete AS19, a boat designed to serve close to the original
intention, I think, of a group day sailer with a cuddy, but with
much deck space for sprawling. However, for instance, in AS19 PCB&F
wanted to get away from people being confined to the cockpit and I
would like one that provides deep shelter. As PCB wrote about
Cynthia J it is rare to find a boat nowadays that you can sit in. He
has studied Herreshoff's Rozinante closely, and as Herreshoff
observed about the Rozinante that cockpit type tops all.
The sublime Anhinga could be got out from a slightly smaller pile of
wood than AS19 requires. She has the best cockpit. Wonderful.
However, she carries capsize and flooding concerns similar to the
unrevised Marth Jane. Doing away with the aft ventilation, and a
truly watertight hatch to the aft compartment might fix. The
ventilation as designed is very elegant, as is the truly amazing
system of apparent aft ballast COG shifting athwartships with
associated negative pitching that leads to the flooding concern as a
knock on effect.
Modification to Cynthia J might be easier, and she has that rig. The
boom on a gallows provides a great ridge pole for a cockpit tent.
Makes a nice place to sit out a sunny day under with lots of
ventilation and cooled sustenance close by. Carry the tent forward
to the mast and both cudddy hatches could be off in the rain.
Graeme
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat,
maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe
and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).
all you say is true, and the increased plywood pile would nearly
complete AS19, a boat designed to serve close to the original
intention, I think, of a group day sailer with a cuddy, but with
much deck space for sprawling. However, for instance, in AS19 PCB&F
wanted to get away from people being confined to the cockpit and I
would like one that provides deep shelter. As PCB wrote about
Cynthia J it is rare to find a boat nowadays that you can sit in. He
has studied Herreshoff's Rozinante closely, and as Herreshoff
observed about the Rozinante that cockpit type tops all.
The sublime Anhinga could be got out from a slightly smaller pile of
wood than AS19 requires. She has the best cockpit. Wonderful.
However, she carries capsize and flooding concerns similar to the
unrevised Marth Jane. Doing away with the aft ventilation, and a
truly watertight hatch to the aft compartment might fix. The
ventilation as designed is very elegant, as is the truly amazing
system of apparent aft ballast COG shifting athwartships with
associated negative pitching that leads to the flooding concern as a
knock on effect.
Modification to Cynthia J might be easier, and she has that rig. The
boom on a gallows provides a great ridge pole for a cockpit tent.
Makes a nice place to sit out a sunny day under with lots of
ventilation and cooled sustenance close by. Carry the tent forward
to the mast and both cudddy hatches could be off in the rain.
Graeme
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance),
> All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood
and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat,
maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe
and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).
>Hi John,
> JohnT
all you say is true, and the increased plywood pile would nearly
complete AS19, a boat designed to serve close to the original
intention, I think, of a group day sailer with a cuddy, but with
much deck space for sprawling. However, for instance, in AS19 PCB&F
wanted to get away from people being confined to the cockpit and I
would like one that provides deep shelter. As PCB wrote about
Cynthia J it is rare to find a boat nowadays that you can sit in. He
has studied Herreshoff's Rozinante closely, and as Herreshoff
observed about the Rozinante that cockpit type tops all.
The sublime Anhinga could be got out from a slightly smaller pile of
wood than AS19 requires. She has the best cockpit. Wonderful.
However, she carries capsize and flooding concerns similar to the
unrevised Marth Jane. Doing away with the aft ventilation, and a
truly watertight hatch to the aft compartment might fix. The
ventilation as designed is very elegant, as is the truly amazing
system of apparent aft ballast COG shifting athwartships with
associated negative pitching that leads to the flooding concern as a
knock on effect.
Modification to Cynthia J might be easier, and she has that rig. The
boom on a gallows provides a great ridge pole for a cockpit tent.
Makes a nice place to sit out a sunny day under with lots of
ventilation and cooled sustenance close by. Carry the tent forward
to the mast and both cudddy hatches could be off in the rain.
Graeme
Hi Reed,
is that your 15July95 MAIB "Capsised !" article? Good article
mate. Did you know Jim Michalak now includes it in one of his
catalogues?
I've liked Cynthia J forever (and not just because from adolescence
on I'll always have an elevated pulse at merely the mention of the
name Cynthia, but that's another story :)). I assumed she'd float
alright, but when I read in the article that a repeat Bolger
prototypes builder, a guy in Bolger's books, Tony Groves, had that
trouble self rescueing her I sat up and took notice. Presumably,
Tony is a competent sailor, so that's not the trouble with righting
the boat. He would have included the designed flotation foam,
wouldn't he? So that's not the trouble either.
I'm not sure, but I think in addition to the rig weight, it's the
low, under-seat flotation that would tend to keep her rolling over.
I think the foam block in the bow would float the bow end a bit, but
would be almost neutral as to orientation. Then there's an awful lot
of water to bail, a problem if it's warm; let alone icy.
In addittion to extra watertightness, chambers and sandbags, maybe
a little weight bolted to the lower bulkhead 3# frame member would
help? A little weight to aid in self rescue, not self right.
For self righting, how about a lifting Single Handed Schooner type
keel at bulkhead #3? You could possibly go coastwise then. Put a
bridgedeck across there to support it that's boxed in either side
for, say, more cockpit coolers. ( Yeah.., the CJ rig could be
dropped into Micro, but CJ has her own certain cuteness in styling
that's not only in her perky rig.) If that seems too much space
subtracted from the cockpit, CJ with her plumb sides would really
suit the outside, ballasted, twin daggerboards from Centennial ll;
if the loss of the pivoting leeboards positioning flexibility could
be stood. Right there, at the high sided cockpit rail, that type of
lightly ballasted daggerboard would be a cinch to raise or lower.
The flare that causes some trouble in their use on Centennial ll is
absent.
Did Tony report his experience to PCB, as it seems both PCB and
Bernie Wolfard were reluctant to include Cynthia J in the CSD
catalogue?
It would at first appear a quick and easy thing for PCB to improve
the self rescuing of CJ before catalogue inclusion, but he didn't
(note: self -rescuing, not -righting). CJ seems to be from an
earlier period where PCB was happy to hop between dinkum sharpie
designs arising from either his own flow theory, or Chapelleian
aprioristic postulate. Perhaps a time came when he was no longer
able to do so, and would not update such designs having firmly moved
to a new sharpie paradigm. He updated Bolger Flow Theory conforming
Otter #231 much later to Otter ll #375, but couldn't do so to
Chapellian Cynthia J #289. If an exception proves the rule then he
has a bob each way with the later Jesse Cooper #389; but even here
he then could not update, and moved instead entirely to the new
paradigm with AS29 #547.
Graeme
is that your 15July95 MAIB "Capsised !" article? Good article
mate. Did you know Jim Michalak now includes it in one of his
catalogues?
I've liked Cynthia J forever (and not just because from adolescence
on I'll always have an elevated pulse at merely the mention of the
name Cynthia, but that's another story :)). I assumed she'd float
alright, but when I read in the article that a repeat Bolger
prototypes builder, a guy in Bolger's books, Tony Groves, had that
trouble self rescueing her I sat up and took notice. Presumably,
Tony is a competent sailor, so that's not the trouble with righting
the boat. He would have included the designed flotation foam,
wouldn't he? So that's not the trouble either.
I'm not sure, but I think in addition to the rig weight, it's the
low, under-seat flotation that would tend to keep her rolling over.
I think the foam block in the bow would float the bow end a bit, but
would be almost neutral as to orientation. Then there's an awful lot
of water to bail, a problem if it's warm; let alone icy.
In addittion to extra watertightness, chambers and sandbags, maybe
a little weight bolted to the lower bulkhead 3# frame member would
help? A little weight to aid in self rescue, not self right.
For self righting, how about a lifting Single Handed Schooner type
keel at bulkhead #3? You could possibly go coastwise then. Put a
bridgedeck across there to support it that's boxed in either side
for, say, more cockpit coolers. ( Yeah.., the CJ rig could be
dropped into Micro, but CJ has her own certain cuteness in styling
that's not only in her perky rig.) If that seems too much space
subtracted from the cockpit, CJ with her plumb sides would really
suit the outside, ballasted, twin daggerboards from Centennial ll;
if the loss of the pivoting leeboards positioning flexibility could
be stood. Right there, at the high sided cockpit rail, that type of
lightly ballasted daggerboard would be a cinch to raise or lower.
The flare that causes some trouble in their use on Centennial ll is
absent.
Did Tony report his experience to PCB, as it seems both PCB and
Bernie Wolfard were reluctant to include Cynthia J in the CSD
catalogue?
It would at first appear a quick and easy thing for PCB to improve
the self rescuing of CJ before catalogue inclusion, but he didn't
(note: self -rescuing, not -righting). CJ seems to be from an
earlier period where PCB was happy to hop between dinkum sharpie
designs arising from either his own flow theory, or Chapelleian
aprioristic postulate. Perhaps a time came when he was no longer
able to do so, and would not update such designs having firmly moved
to a new sharpie paradigm. He updated Bolger Flow Theory conforming
Otter #231 much later to Otter ll #375, but couldn't do so to
Chapellian Cynthia J #289. If an exception proves the rule then he
has a bob each way with the later Jesse Cooper #389; but even here
he then could not update, and moved instead entirely to the new
paradigm with AS29 #547.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "captreed48" <captreed@...> wrote:
>
> As
> > designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly
high
> on her
> > side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and
gaff.
> > Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on
the
> bottom to
> > pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up.
If
> capsize is
> > a major concern,
>
> Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his
> Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger
boat and
> crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the
launch
> ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.
>
>
> I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire
transom and
> under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would
vastly
> improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
> right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but
not
> very high.)
>
> Let us know how it goes.
>
> Reed
>
The standard approach for recovering a capsized dinghy is to put weight on the centerboard to lever the boat back on her feet. This doesn't work with leeboards. If the leeboard is on the high side, it is too high for a swimmer to reach; if it is on the low side, a swimmer can't exert much force on it. Probably the best approach is to keep a length of line fastened to the gunwale amidships. If capsize occurs, throw the line over the high side of the boat, swim around to the bottom of the boat, and use the line to try to pull the boat up (with your feet on the bottom and pulling on the line).
Obviously a boat floating high on it's side will be easier to right than one floating low. It would be relatively simple to add a bulkhead immediately behind the seats and deck in the space for substantial added bouyancy. If the seats were made wider to meet the sides and the joint between the outer edge of the seats and the side were made watertight (with fiberglass tape set in an epoxy fillet) the seats woud also provide some bouyancy (assuming thet the boat would float high enough on her side so that the inboard edge of the seat was above water).
To make the boat truly self righting, it is necessary to add ballast either in the form of hard ballast or water ballast. If you are going to do that, it would probably be necessary to make the curve of the bottom deeper to float the additional weight.
Another alternative is to add a 'Birdwatcher' cabin.
All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance), and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat, maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).
JohnT
Obviously a boat floating high on it's side will be easier to right than one floating low. It would be relatively simple to add a bulkhead immediately behind the seats and deck in the space for substantial added bouyancy. If the seats were made wider to meet the sides and the joint between the outer edge of the seats and the side were made watertight (with fiberglass tape set in an epoxy fillet) the seats woud also provide some bouyancy (assuming thet the boat would float high enough on her side so that the inboard edge of the seat was above water).
To make the boat truly self righting, it is necessary to add ballast either in the form of hard ballast or water ballast. If you are going to do that, it would probably be necessary to make the curve of the bottom deeper to float the additional weight.
Another alternative is to add a 'Birdwatcher' cabin.
All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance), and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat, maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).
JohnT
----- Original Message -----
From: captreed48
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:22 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?
As
> designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high
on her
> side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
> Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the
bottom to
> pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. If
capsize is
> a major concern,
Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his
Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger boat and
crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the launch
ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.
I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire transom and
under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would vastly
improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but not
very high.)
Let us know how it goes.
Reed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.0/465 - Release Date: 10/6/2006
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As
Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger boat and
crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the launch
ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.
I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire transom and
under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would vastly
improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but not
very high.)
Let us know how it goes.
Reed
> designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly highon her
> side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.bottom to
> Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the
> pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. Ifcapsize is
> a major concern,Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his
Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger boat and
crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the launch
ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.
I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire transom and
under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would vastly
improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but not
very high.)
Let us know how it goes.
Reed
Graeme,
Doubling or trippling the bottom will only help righting on
a boat that is not flooded. Once the boat is filled, all that plywood
becomes flotation and will have the opposite effect. I think you need
some dense weight down there, lead, steel, at least epoxy filled with
something heavy. Then extra flotation to make sure you don't go right
to the bottom! 8^D
Sincerely,
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "
----- Original Message ----
From: graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 11:49:25 PM
Subject: [bolger] How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?
The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
be self rescueing at the least.
RIG.
PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?
Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.
Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
first place.
BOTTOM.
Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.
Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.
Will this be stiff enough?
BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
higher location also should help, but again is it enough?
Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
with?
Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
hinged?
Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
the outboard.
Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.
Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
windward side when under sail.
LEEBOARDS.
I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
designed ones are not merely flat plates
YULOH.
Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
you think?
What else could be done, or needs doing?
Graeme
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
20J./
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Doubling or trippling the bottom will only help righting on
a boat that is not flooded. Once the boat is filled, all that plywood
becomes flotation and will have the opposite effect. I think you need
some dense weight down there, lead, steel, at least epoxy filled with
something heavy. Then extra flotation to make sure you don't go right
to the bottom! 8^D
Sincerely,
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "
----- Original Message ----
From: graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 11:49:25 PM
Subject: [bolger] How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?
The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
be self rescueing at the least.
RIG.
PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?
Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.
Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
first place.
BOTTOM.
Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.
Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.
Will this be stiff enough?
BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
higher location also should help, but again is it enough?
Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
with?
Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
hinged?
Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
the outboard.
Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.
Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
windward side when under sail.
LEEBOARDS.
I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
designed ones are not merely flat plates
YULOH.
Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
you think?
What else could be done, or needs doing?
Graeme
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
20J./
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Like many of PCB's boats, Cynthia J was designed to precisely fit a specific
set of uses (which, I believe, you have described with great accuracy). As
designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high on her
side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the bottom to
pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. If capsize is
a major concern, Cynthia J's reserve bouyancy would be improved by a)
raising the companionway opening in the cabin bulkhead to the level of the
seats and b) adding a bulkhead and decking in the back of the cockpit behind
the seats (which would require raising the rudder head and running the
tiller over the top of the deck). If you want to take a look at afurther
development of the general idea, take a look at Michalak's Fatcat design.
All boats are a balance between a series of compromises. I have found that
it is easy to identify things on a boat that I think could be improved, but
that it is usually not possible to improve the feature I don't like without
degrading the features I do like. Most of the time when I try, I find that
the designer was smarter than I am :>).
John T
set of uses (which, I believe, you have described with great accuracy). As
designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high on her
side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the bottom to
pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. If capsize is
a major concern, Cynthia J's reserve bouyancy would be improved by a)
raising the companionway opening in the cabin bulkhead to the level of the
seats and b) adding a bulkhead and decking in the back of the cockpit behind
the seats (which would require raising the rudder head and running the
tiller over the top of the deck). If you want to take a look at afurther
development of the general idea, take a look at Michalak's Fatcat design.
All boats are a balance between a series of compromises. I have found that
it is easy to identify things on a boat that I think could be improved, but
that it is usually not possible to improve the feature I don't like without
degrading the features I do like. Most of the time when I try, I find that
the designer was smarter than I am :>).
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:49 PM
Subject: [bolger] How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?
> The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
> hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
> guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
> years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
> to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
> daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
> be self rescueing at the least.
>
>
>
> RIG.
> PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
> some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
> keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
> there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
> other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?
>
> Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
> the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
> of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.
>
> Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
> load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
> first place.
>
>
>
> BOTTOM.
> Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
> the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
> cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.
>
> Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.
>
> Will this be stiff enough?
>
>
>
> BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
> As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
> and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
> attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
> help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
> flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
> higher location also should help, but again is it enough?
>
> Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
> compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
> resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
> will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
> lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
> perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
> large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
> with?
>
> Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
> and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
> bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
> hinged?
>
> Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
> and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
> It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
> Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
> able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
> galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
> aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
> mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
> the outboard.
>
> Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
> fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.
>
> Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
> windward side when under sail.
>
> LEEBOARDS.
> I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
> think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
> designed ones are not merely flat plates
>
> YULOH.
> Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
> very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
> you think?
>
> What else could be done, or needs doing?
>
> Graeme
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
> 20J./
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.0/464 - Release Date: 10/5/2006
>
The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
be self rescueing at the least.
RIG.
PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?
Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.
Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
first place.
BOTTOM.
Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.
Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.
Will this be stiff enough?
BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
higher location also should help, but again is it enough?
Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
with?
Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
hinged?
Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
the outboard.
Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.
Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
windward side when under sail.
LEEBOARDS.
I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
designed ones are not merely flat plates
YULOH.
Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
you think?
What else could be done, or needs doing?
Graeme
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
20J./
hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
be self rescueing at the least.
RIG.
PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?
Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.
Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
first place.
BOTTOM.
Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.
Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.
Will this be stiff enough?
BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
higher location also should help, but again is it enough?
Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
with?
Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
hinged?
Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
the outboard.
Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.
Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
windward side when under sail.
LEEBOARDS.
I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
designed ones are not merely flat plates
YULOH.
Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
you think?
What else could be done, or needs doing?
Graeme
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
20J./