Re: [bolger]Dipping lug variant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:
really high. Still all cruising type boats are pretty expensive,
really a mater of whether carbon gets cheapish again. There is a lot
of interest in freestanding carbon spars all acorss the waterfront.
Cat people are really interested also. Other than the spar, everythign
else is pretty cheap.
My main concern is with the development of the type so that it's a
practical cruiser and it still seems a tough row to hoe.
>I still think they are limited to 2 even at the cost, but the cost is
> >"Sailing Harry singlehanded takes less effort than any other boat I
> >have ever sailed. Harry points high, sails fast and is very
> >responsive: in many ways more resposive than conventional monos and
> >multis."
>
> But $$$$$.
>
really high. Still all cruising type boats are pretty expensive,
really a mater of whether carbon gets cheapish again. There is a lot
of interest in freestanding carbon spars all acorss the waterfront.
Cat people are really interested also. Other than the spar, everythign
else is pretty cheap.
My main concern is with the development of the type so that it's a
practical cruiser and it still seems a tough row to hoe.
>"Sailing Harry singlehanded takes less effort than any other boat IBut $$$$$.
>have ever sailed. Harry points high, sails fast and is very
>responsive: in many ways more resposive than conventional monos and
>multis."
A small proa might work with a dipping lug at either end. You never really
have to dip, just raise and lower.
One handling problem that seems to plague the small bolger proa, or any
sail like the A/Xmas-sail on a small symmetrical boat is that you can't
readily sail a boat that is completely symmetrical with most of the "stuff"
(boards, rudders) concentrated near the middle. You have trouble keeping
the CE in the right spot and wind up with control problems from rig
balance. The boards and rudders, as a practical matter, ought to be near
the ends. Note that (and I don't want to start a new vs old proa argument)
that the traditional boats steer with a large paddle over the stern (at the
stern).
Tim Anderson (Tim's Hasty Proa Pages?) has fooled a lot with workable and
cheap ...
I think the ideal test bed might be a relatively wide (so you can walk
around) scow bowed boat using a couple Opti Pram sails. You're working with
known components. Nothing is expensive. Vertical sides mean you can fiddle
with attaching boards in varios places. Think of a couple Opti prams joined
by a flat section of hull to make them about 18 feet or so. Or two Bolger
Brick bows with a long trough between.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>----- Original Message -----Yeh, a stay or two, can't recall exactly. The "original" photos are a
>From: "craig o'donnell"
><<mailto:dadadata%40friend.ly.net>dadadata@...>
>Google my Cheap Pages and see what Robert B Roosevelt did on "Mary and
>> Lamb." Not the same, but comparable esp since the proa only sails on the
>> "same tack". Something of a balanced lug variant.
>
>Thanks Craig. I remember seeing that a long time back on your site. It is
>sort of the same idea. I guess there must be a stay to windward to keep the
>whole thing up.
>
>Gary
little less blurry than the scans. Actually I wish I could locate the
original photos.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Great article. With proas I devide them into a sport end, and a GT
> Craig's Duckworks proa article and Phillip's comment:
>
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/designs/proa/index.htm
>
end. Some people are looking for rigs that fit the traditional profile
of a boat that's a lot of fun, but a lot of work, and others think
there is something to be had from proas that is going to help, or at
the very least not hurt the cause of serious cruising, solo trips, and
singlehanded racing. My lens is almost all GT.
"Sailing Harry singlehanded takes less effort than any other boat I
have ever sailed. Harry points high, sails fast and is very
responsive: in many ways more resposive than conventional monos and
multis."
That kind of thing would be nice.
>That is an issue that has occured to me also. But there can be lots of
> Can anyone sort out the conundrum raised by the conflicting views
> posed by various proa-istas, Phillip Smith, Joe Norwood, and PB&F?
>
> Graeme
resons for failure, sail cut, controls, in one Pacific proa I know of
that tried the Bolger rig there was very little sailing time in the
water, something was laways being changed, and there was very little
righting moment in the design. Bolger is pretty rig savy, so it is a
mystery.
There has been a lot of work done on the Pacific proa these past 10 or
more years. So far not much new that works seems to have been
achieved. The Ballestron on the Harry showed promise, but remains very
difficult to justify, even to the devoted. I know of only one rig that
works well enough to cross an ocean, and it's Brown's tig, though it
doesn't seem a great idea on the Harry, which is the main type
currently being seriously built.
It's a variant on Newick's Rrazor - you can have two of the following
three things: Cheap; practical rudder; or ease of handling. and in
truth you are lucky to get one of these.
>Craig,I'd call it a balanced lug of an odd shape but that's more due to function
>would you call the Mary and Lamb's a settee sail slung from a bi-
>pod, or A-frame mast? Noteably for the proa, the frame is mounted
>longitudinally, and not athwartships like for the old #5165 King Kat
>lateen
><http://www.dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm>http://www.dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm
>(under
>multihulls).
than shape. I built a 6-foot long model of this boat that I sailed back and
forth and I can say that when I could get the pieces set right it would go!
(Getting the correct amt of ballast on the ama is a problem with a model).
And yes, the "A" is along the length of the boat. I honestly think this rig
was a unappreciated work of near-genius by R.B. Roosevelt.
>The Gibbons sail in Gary's version seems to be the only sail type aside
>There's been some extra comments posted since I read your fine proa
>article over at Duckworks. In particular, concerning the comment by
>Phillip Smith:
>
>"Philip 12 Aug 06 13:26 ---------Craig, Great site! Keep up the good
>work! I bought Joe Norwoods Bolger Proa several years ago &
>literally sailed it to pieces! Never got the rig to work.
>Constructed a Balestrom rig using the pieces & gained some control.
>Still, great fun! Put a crab claw on the hull & sailed til it
>wouldn't be glued back together anymore. Looking at Dierkings work
>now, particularly the Gibbons sail. Cheers, Philip"
from the Mary-Lamb rig that you could call an efficient proa one-sail
singlehander rig, though Brown's two-jibs sloop setup is clearly easy to
use too.
John Harris' Mbuli uses a cat-schooner rig, which makes perfect sense. The
problems we had with that boat were due to the experimental semi-wing masts
and (IMHO) a mistake in the setup of a rotating mast base. I suggested
trailer hitch balls on the mast bottoms riding in boxes made of HMW
plastic, John went more with a needle-point type thing on the first one
built.
>I'm not sure I've ever seen an alternative rig for the 20-foot proa. The
>Phillip seems to be saying quite the contrary to what PB&F wrote in
>their "Bolger Proa-60" MAIB concept study earlier this year about
>the rig being proven for the Bolger Proa-20 #664 which was presented
>in MAIB 1August2003. PB&F wrote for Bolger Proa-60:
60-ft proa has a load of neat ideas but I'm just not happy about that rig.
It is very much different than the original A-sail. Only Norwood claims to
have made that A-sail work on a proa.
Bolger did do a prototype (Margaret Mead?) way back, essentially a 60-foot
Instant boat with a couple square (?) sails which seem to have some
relationship to the Xmas Tree also. I'd have to go look it up.
>--
>"... This proposal shares with the super-simplified 20' daysailer...
>strong family relations to what we've called the Christmas tree
>rig...
>
>In single-masted form the rig had been tested on Phil's Canard
>(#440), specified on other monohull designs as well ((anyone know
>about these? g.)), and in the context of the Pacific proa's geometry
>had seemed particularly intriguing in its potentialities. MAIB of
>July 15, 2003, reported on Joseph Norwood's execution of Phil's
>Christmas tree proa concept most recently presented in Chapter 24
>of 'Boats With An Open Mind' (1994). Norwood's confirmation of the
>rig's utility for proas warranted its inclusion in #664...
>
>As we see it a problem with (almost) all proa rigs is a shift of the
>centre of effort from one shunt to the other...
>
>In our first proposal the Christmas tree proa, this was addressed by
>shifting the balance point of the sail. But this first put an undue
>stress on the mast and second made either the reefing arrangements
>too crude for a larger scale version or unacceptably complicated....
>
>In our revised Bolger Proa-20 daysailer version, reacting to
>Norwood's experiment, we accepted the shift of the centre of sail
>are (sic) and dealt with it hydrodynamically...
>
>In the next issue we'll go into handling this particular rig..."
>
>Kevin O'Neill posted in proa_file
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file/message/14956?threaded=1&p=5>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file/message/14956?threaded=1&p=5
>that he was posting the Bolger Proa-60 study to the proa_file6 files
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file6/files/Bolger%2060%20proa/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file6/files/Bolger%2060%20proa/
>
>There has this year been some comment in the proa_file in effect
>asking "has anyone written to Bolger?", or "someone should tell
>Bolger about the real problems of this sail rig on a proa".
>
>Some proa-istas have tried the Bolger Christmas tree rig and found
>it fatally flawed. The worst and irretrievable problem is that when
>shunted the sail at some point must go orthogonal to the wind. As I
>understand it this complaint arises from the condition that at some
>point during the shunt as the Christmas tree tack and sheet are
>reversed, and the sail centre of effort is supposed to move toward
>the new bow, the sail instead is held by tack and sheet square-on to
>the wind. This can be a frightful state and apparently all to often
>results in injury and/or capsise.
>
>Has Phillip Smith, who wrote he couldn't ever get Norwood's "PB&F
>proof of utility" Christmas tree rig to work, been contacted or
>contacted PB&F? Have I got this confused, and somehow PB&F have a
>very different revised rig on the Proa-20? As I understand it the
>rig shown in BWAOM is the one Norwood used and passed to Smith, and
>that's the one others have tried and found wanting.
>
>Can anyone sort out the conundrum raised by the conflicting views
>posed by various proa-istas, Phillip Smith, Joe Norwood, and PB&F?
>
>Graeme
>
>--- In <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>bolger@yahoogroups.com, craig
>o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:
>> Google my Cheap Pages and see what Robert B Roosevelt did on "Mary
>> and Lamb."
>
>
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message -----
From: "craig o'donnell" <dadadata@...>
Google my Cheap Pages and see what Robert B Roosevelt did on "Mary and
> Lamb." Not the same, but comparable esp since the proa only sails on the
> "same tack". Something of a balanced lug variant.
Thanks Craig. I remember seeing that a long time back on your site. It is
sort of the same idea. I guess there must be a stay to windward to keep the
whole thing up.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...>
> Gary, very nice boat.
Thanks. I like it.
>After searching through all the Anhinga stuff
... >maybe something closer to Dovekie would make more sense than A. I
have no
> idea whether Dovekei was actually any better than many other of
> Bolger's designs, but just the fact it was very competantly promoted
> gives it solid credibility.
That was kind of my thinking. I figured I couldn't go too far wrong with
all the happy Dovekie owners there are, and Bolger's comments about how well
it sailed. I just didn't like the open cabin arrangement or the rig.
> On the rig, what about a split lug?
I tried a split lug last year and good results with it but it is more
complex, and more junk in the cockpit when rowing or at anchor. I might
reconsider it set on one mast off to one side of the hatch though. I think
it will take more tinkering to get it to set right than the dipping lug
though.
> Where did you get a polytarp that looks tanbark?
Walmart. It is actually silver on the other side, being a laminated heavy
duty tarp. I do like the color though. The tarp I have for the next sail
is blue and silver, not nearly as nice. If I ever settle on a rig, I will
invest in dacron though.
Gary
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/designs/proa/index.htm
wrote:
> There's been some extra comments posted since I read your fine proaCraig's Duckworks proa article and Phillip's comment:
> article over at Duckworks.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/designs/proa/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger]Dipping lug variant
> Gary,
>
> that looks great. What an interesting idea. How does it go coming
> about? Is there any hesitancy? Do you have to play the tack rope, or
> does it just swing over then you adjust on the tack rope at your
> liesure? I wonder if there'd be any advantage in also being able to
> slide the yard across? (Probably not?)
It tacked just fine. The traveller is controlled by two lines to the
cockpit, so is easy to haul over as the bow crosses the wind, then resheet
on the new leeward side. In the light conditions I was in it didn't seem to
matter what I did when. I sailed for awhile with the tack in the center and
it worked ok, but I think it set better with the tack to windward. On a
wider boat, like a catamran, the tack could probably be left in the center
and just sheet it like a jib.
>One caveat comes
> to mind - will the sail still have the bow lifting effect downwind?
Probably not much. I suppose that varies with the angle of the luff and the
yard.
I wonder if with further (tricky?) engineering a single mast might
> not be achievable by having the hoisting cross arm (beam?)
> cantilevered off one mast only?
That would be too tricky for my engineering skill level. You could have a
mast to one side and the yard hung from a gaff like on a gaff sail, but not
sure how you would keep it from rotating, going forward or back?
>New Orleans Lugger:
In the original dipper I did try sailing with the sail to windward, which
worked, but only tried it in light wind. If you then wanted to bear off on
a reach, you would have to dip anyway.
> PCB is said to have spent some time experimenting with the dipping
> lug rigged in a June Bug. Apparently he doubled up too, not the mast
> but the sail. He dealt with the tacking issue by having a sail for
> either tack.
Gary Blankenship's 30'er had that two sail arrangement at first too. I
believe he found it too cumbersome.
> Name suggestions? Well I've not thought of a good one yet, and it
> certainly deserves a good name. Forgive the pun, but the bar has
> been set high :-) How about some word association? Try: - -
> Gallows - - Scaffold - - Swing Rig (taken) - - Swing Lug - - No
> dipping Lug - - Dipnot - - No-aback tack - - Twin Mast Lug - - 2spar
> Lug - - Double Dipper - -
I like Double Dipper, but Twin mast Lug is probably the most descriptive.
Thanks for the input.
Gary
Craig,
would you call the Mary and Lamb's a settee sail slung from a bi-
pod, or A-frame mast? Noteably for the proa, the frame is mounted
longitudinally, and not athwartships like for the old #5165 King Kat
lateenhttp://www.dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm(under
multihulls).
There's been some extra comments posted since I read your fine proa
article over at Duckworks. In particular, concerning the comment by
Phillip Smith:
"Philip 12 Aug 06 13:26 ---------Craig, Great site! Keep up the good
work! I bought Joe Norwoods Bolger Proa several years ago &
literally sailed it to pieces! Never got the rig to work.
Constructed a Balestrom rig using the pieces & gained some control.
Still, great fun! Put a crab claw on the hull & sailed til it
wouldn't be glued back together anymore. Looking at Dierkings work
now, particularly the Gibbons sail. Cheers, Philip"
Phillip seems to be saying quite the contrary to what PB&F wrote in
their "Bolger Proa-60" MAIB concept study earlier this year about
the rig being proven for the Bolger Proa-20 #664 which was presented
in MAIB 1August2003. PB&F wrote for Bolger Proa-60:
"... This proposal shares with the super-simplified 20' daysailer...
strong family relations to what we've called the Christmas tree
rig...
In single-masted form the rig had been tested on Phil's Canard
(#440), specified on other monohull designs as well ((anyone know
about these? g.)), and in the context of the Pacific proa's geometry
had seemed particularly intriguing in its potentialities. MAIB of
July 15, 2003, reported on Joseph Norwood's execution of Phil's
Christmas tree proa concept most recently presented in Chapter 24
of 'Boats With An Open Mind' (1994). Norwood's confirmation of the
rig's utility for proas warranted its inclusion in #664...
As we see it a problem with (almost) all proa rigs is a shift of the
centre of effort from one shunt to the other...
In our first proposal the Christmas tree proa, this was addressed by
shifting the balance point of the sail. But this first put an undue
stress on the mast and second made either the reefing arrangements
too crude for a larger scale version or unacceptably complicated....
In our revised Bolger Proa-20 daysailer version, reacting to
Norwood's experiment, we accepted the shift of the centre of sail
are (sic) and dealt with it hydrodynamically...
In the next issue we'll go into handling this particular rig..."
Kevin O'Neill posted in proa_file
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file/message/14956?threaded=1&p=5
that he was posting the Bolger Proa-60 study to the proa_file6 files
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file6/files/Bolger%2060%20proa/
There has this year been some comment in the proa_file in effect
asking "has anyone written to Bolger?", or "someone should tell
Bolger about the real problems of this sail rig on a proa".
Some proa-istas have tried the Bolger Christmas tree rig and found
it fatally flawed. The worst and irretrievable problem is that when
shunted the sail at some point must go orthogonal to the wind. As I
understand it this complaint arises from the condition that at some
point during the shunt as the Christmas tree tack and sheet are
reversed, and the sail centre of effort is supposed to move toward
the new bow, the sail instead is held by tack and sheet square-on to
the wind. This can be a frightful state and apparently all to often
results in injury and/or capsise.
Has Phillip Smith, who wrote he couldn't ever get Norwood's "PB&F
proof of utility" Christmas tree rig to work, been contacted or
contacted PB&F? Have I got this confused, and somehow PB&F have a
very different revised rig on the Proa-20? As I understand it the
rig shown in BWAOM is the one Norwood used and passed to Smith, and
that's the one others have tried and found wanting.
Can anyone sort out the conundrum raised by the conflicting views
posed by various proa-istas, Phillip Smith, Joe Norwood, and PB&F?
Graeme
would you call the Mary and Lamb's a settee sail slung from a bi-
pod, or A-frame mast? Noteably for the proa, the frame is mounted
longitudinally, and not athwartships like for the old #5165 King Kat
lateenhttp://www.dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm(under
multihulls).
There's been some extra comments posted since I read your fine proa
article over at Duckworks. In particular, concerning the comment by
Phillip Smith:
"Philip 12 Aug 06 13:26 ---------Craig, Great site! Keep up the good
work! I bought Joe Norwoods Bolger Proa several years ago &
literally sailed it to pieces! Never got the rig to work.
Constructed a Balestrom rig using the pieces & gained some control.
Still, great fun! Put a crab claw on the hull & sailed til it
wouldn't be glued back together anymore. Looking at Dierkings work
now, particularly the Gibbons sail. Cheers, Philip"
Phillip seems to be saying quite the contrary to what PB&F wrote in
their "Bolger Proa-60" MAIB concept study earlier this year about
the rig being proven for the Bolger Proa-20 #664 which was presented
in MAIB 1August2003. PB&F wrote for Bolger Proa-60:
"... This proposal shares with the super-simplified 20' daysailer...
strong family relations to what we've called the Christmas tree
rig...
In single-masted form the rig had been tested on Phil's Canard
(#440), specified on other monohull designs as well ((anyone know
about these? g.)), and in the context of the Pacific proa's geometry
had seemed particularly intriguing in its potentialities. MAIB of
July 15, 2003, reported on Joseph Norwood's execution of Phil's
Christmas tree proa concept most recently presented in Chapter 24
of 'Boats With An Open Mind' (1994). Norwood's confirmation of the
rig's utility for proas warranted its inclusion in #664...
As we see it a problem with (almost) all proa rigs is a shift of the
centre of effort from one shunt to the other...
In our first proposal the Christmas tree proa, this was addressed by
shifting the balance point of the sail. But this first put an undue
stress on the mast and second made either the reefing arrangements
too crude for a larger scale version or unacceptably complicated....
In our revised Bolger Proa-20 daysailer version, reacting to
Norwood's experiment, we accepted the shift of the centre of sail
are (sic) and dealt with it hydrodynamically...
In the next issue we'll go into handling this particular rig..."
Kevin O'Neill posted in proa_file
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file/message/14956?threaded=1&p=5
that he was posting the Bolger Proa-60 study to the proa_file6 files
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file6/files/Bolger%2060%20proa/
There has this year been some comment in the proa_file in effect
asking "has anyone written to Bolger?", or "someone should tell
Bolger about the real problems of this sail rig on a proa".
Some proa-istas have tried the Bolger Christmas tree rig and found
it fatally flawed. The worst and irretrievable problem is that when
shunted the sail at some point must go orthogonal to the wind. As I
understand it this complaint arises from the condition that at some
point during the shunt as the Christmas tree tack and sheet are
reversed, and the sail centre of effort is supposed to move toward
the new bow, the sail instead is held by tack and sheet square-on to
the wind. This can be a frightful state and apparently all to often
results in injury and/or capsise.
Has Phillip Smith, who wrote he couldn't ever get Norwood's "PB&F
proof of utility" Christmas tree rig to work, been contacted or
contacted PB&F? Have I got this confused, and somehow PB&F have a
very different revised rig on the Proa-20? As I understand it the
rig shown in BWAOM is the one Norwood used and passed to Smith, and
that's the one others have tried and found wanting.
Can anyone sort out the conundrum raised by the conflicting views
posed by various proa-istas, Phillip Smith, Joe Norwood, and PB&F?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:
> Google my Cheap Pages and see what Robert B Roosevelt did on "Mary
> and Lamb."
Google my Cheap Pages and see what Robert B Roosevelt did on "Mary and
Lamb." Not the same, but comparable esp since the proa only sails on the
"same tack". Something of a balanced lug variant.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
Lamb." Not the same, but comparable esp since the proa only sails on the
"same tack". Something of a balanced lug variant.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
I favour High Jump. sounds optimistic of harsh depending on your
mood.
Gary, very nice boat. After searching through all the Anhinga stuff
and all the other stuff on Bolger in any way related, I came away
thinking that while I can see a case for Eeek, or ESC, maybe
something closer to Dovekie would make more sense than A. I have no
idea whether Dovekei was actually any better than many other of
Bolger's designs, but just the fact it was very competantly promoted
gives it solid credibility. In a world where composites occasionally
rival wood in cost and speed of build, or even in wood, making a
Dovekie looks pretty easy. Then maybe doubts would be deflected,
rather than the model being more an interesting story than an
interesting boat, to most people. Anhinga did seem to have two
problems solved in the Dovekie uncomfortable sides, insuficient width
(if a person wants to sail it hard), and the high ends. Dovekie
solves all these, is lighter, etc...
Anyway you seem to have dealt with a lot of the same problems well!
On the rig, what about a split lug? Or Fred Shell's Crab Claw
variant. Fred seems dead clever to me.
Where did you get a polytarp that looks tanbark?
mood.
Gary, very nice boat. After searching through all the Anhinga stuff
and all the other stuff on Bolger in any way related, I came away
thinking that while I can see a case for Eeek, or ESC, maybe
something closer to Dovekie would make more sense than A. I have no
idea whether Dovekei was actually any better than many other of
Bolger's designs, but just the fact it was very competantly promoted
gives it solid credibility. In a world where composites occasionally
rival wood in cost and speed of build, or even in wood, making a
Dovekie looks pretty easy. Then maybe doubts would be deflected,
rather than the model being more an interesting story than an
interesting boat, to most people. Anhinga did seem to have two
problems solved in the Dovekie uncomfortable sides, insuficient width
(if a person wants to sail it hard), and the high ends. Dovekie
solves all these, is lighter, etc...
Anyway you seem to have dealt with a lot of the same problems well!
On the rig, what about a split lug? Or Fred Shell's Crab Claw
variant. Fred seems dead clever to me.
Where did you get a polytarp that looks tanbark?
Gary,
that looks great. What an interesting idea. How does it go coming
about? Is there any hesitancy? Do you have to play the tack rope, or
does it just swing over then you adjust on the tack rope at your
liesure? I wonder if there'd be any advantage in also being able to
slide the yard across? (Probably not?)
"One mast is fast", but here you are gaining the advantages of
better sail tuning for the point of sail, and no-dip tacking. That
may sum to place you ahead of "one mast is fast". One caveat comes
to mind - will the sail still have the bow lifting effect downwind?
I wonder if with further (tricky?) engineering a single mast might
not be achievable by having the hoisting cross arm (beam?)
cantilevered off one mast only?
At page 282 "American Small Sailing Craft" Chappelle shows the only
similarly sailed rig I've ever seen. The New Orleans Lugger had
apparently "the only dipping lugsail to be used in an American work-
boat type in the late nineteenth century." I don't think the way the
tack is hauled across is seen in any of the northern European
dipping luggers. The NOL had long horses for tack and sheet, the
foot was pulled flat by the sheet, so even on the "bad" tack the
sail stood clear of the mast with none aback except a small amount
at the yard. The NOL was fairly beamy and quite full at the bow,
unlike Bufflehead, so this worked for them. What you appear to have
is probably a relatively much lower stressed rig that can perform
the same trick on a narrower bowed boat. Great!
PCB is said to have spent some time experimenting with the dipping
lug rigged in a June Bug. Apparently he doubled up too, not the mast
but the sail. He dealt with the tacking issue by having a sail for
either tack.
Name suggestions? Well I've not thought of a good one yet, and it
certainly deserves a good name. Forgive the pun, but the bar has
been set high :-) How about some word association? Try: - -
Gallows - - Scaffold - - Swing Rig (taken) - - Swing Lug - - No
dipping Lug - - Dipnot - - No-aback tack - - Twin Mast Lug - - 2spar
Lug - - Double Dipper - - Come-about-without-fear - - No-fear lug - -
Reliable - - Two Reliable - - Two's Better - - Better Than One - -
One Better Lug - - HOTT Lug (haul over the tack lug) - - HOT... Hang
on... yeah, I'll stop there and suggest "HOTT" for now.
This could be good, Gary. Keep us posted with the bigger sail trial
please. Caledonian Yawl eh? Well, well, ach man they'll not be liken
that now.
Graeme
that looks great. What an interesting idea. How does it go coming
about? Is there any hesitancy? Do you have to play the tack rope, or
does it just swing over then you adjust on the tack rope at your
liesure? I wonder if there'd be any advantage in also being able to
slide the yard across? (Probably not?)
"One mast is fast", but here you are gaining the advantages of
better sail tuning for the point of sail, and no-dip tacking. That
may sum to place you ahead of "one mast is fast". One caveat comes
to mind - will the sail still have the bow lifting effect downwind?
I wonder if with further (tricky?) engineering a single mast might
not be achievable by having the hoisting cross arm (beam?)
cantilevered off one mast only?
At page 282 "American Small Sailing Craft" Chappelle shows the only
similarly sailed rig I've ever seen. The New Orleans Lugger had
apparently "the only dipping lugsail to be used in an American work-
boat type in the late nineteenth century." I don't think the way the
tack is hauled across is seen in any of the northern European
dipping luggers. The NOL had long horses for tack and sheet, the
foot was pulled flat by the sheet, so even on the "bad" tack the
sail stood clear of the mast with none aback except a small amount
at the yard. The NOL was fairly beamy and quite full at the bow,
unlike Bufflehead, so this worked for them. What you appear to have
is probably a relatively much lower stressed rig that can perform
the same trick on a narrower bowed boat. Great!
PCB is said to have spent some time experimenting with the dipping
lug rigged in a June Bug. Apparently he doubled up too, not the mast
but the sail. He dealt with the tacking issue by having a sail for
either tack.
Name suggestions? Well I've not thought of a good one yet, and it
certainly deserves a good name. Forgive the pun, but the bar has
been set high :-) How about some word association? Try: - -
Gallows - - Scaffold - - Swing Rig (taken) - - Swing Lug - - No
dipping Lug - - Dipnot - - No-aback tack - - Twin Mast Lug - - 2spar
Lug - - Double Dipper - - Come-about-without-fear - - No-fear lug - -
Reliable - - Two Reliable - - Two's Better - - Better Than One - -
One Better Lug - - HOTT Lug (haul over the tack lug) - - HOT... Hang
on... yeah, I'll stop there and suggest "HOTT" for now.
This could be good, Gary. Keep us posted with the bigger sail trial
please. Caledonian Yawl eh? Well, well, ach man they'll not be liken
that now.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@... wrote:
> ...I had the idea to try two masts, one on each side of the hull,
> with a crossbar between them...Ian Oughtred Caledonia Yawl...I was
> actually beating him, to his chagrin,..I've alway liked the Ocean
> Crossing Rowboat and wondered how that low rig would work....
> "Gallows Rig" but don't really like the name... Any suggestions?
Graeme,
Your signoff inspired me to share what I've been trying with the dipping
lug. Last summer ('05), I sailed Bufflehead with a dipping lug, balanced
lug, and split lug. I really liked the way the dipping lug set and pulled,
but it has the obvious disadvantage of having to be dipped. Since I am not
crossing oceans on the same tack for days on end, I more or less decided to
not develop and pursue the rig, though I did get pretty good at dipping it
singlehanded, at least in light winds. Also I didn't think it set that well
for downwind without adding a whisker pole to to hold out the clew. I did
have a tack track (rope) which I used to get a better sheeting angle on
Bufflhead's narrow beam.
Anyway, a few weeks ago I had the idea to try two masts, one on each side of
the hull, with a crossbar between them. The yard of the dipper is lashed to
the middle of the crossbar, and the bar slides up the masts by pulling on
both halyards at once. I tried it oout in the yard with the boat on the
trailer. There are a couple pictures here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57697224@N00/This was with the 9'x12'
rectangular tarp that I had been using as a dipping lugs'l. I recut the
sail to put an angle to the yard and took it for a sail on a light wind day.
The wind was a bit lighter than I would have liked, but it did very well.
There happened to be a guy out in a Ian Oughtred Caledonia Yawl, half the
weight of Bufflehead with 170 sf of sail to my 100sf and I did pretty well
sailing alongside him. I was actually beating him, to his chagrin, until he
discovered the kelp that was hooked on his rudder! I am going to make
another tarp sail of 135 sf to try it again. I have refined the crossbar to
mast join with pvc plumbing fittings as sleeves. The original trial I just
had parrels. On each tack I haul the clew to windward and resheet on the
lee rail. I think having the yard offset to leeward of the tack helps the
shape. Unfortunately I forgot my camera the day I went sailing, so no pics
of that yet. I guess the windage of the extra mast will be the main
disadvantage of the rig. The weight isn't too much with one mast weighing 7
lbs and the other about 5 lbs. The crossbar is 3 at the most, a piece of
windsurfer mast. Also now the mast isn't in the way right in front of the
hatch, which it was with the original rig. I will probably use some sort of
whisker pole or an oar to hold the clew out on runs.
I've alway liked the Ocean Crossing Rowboat and wondered how that low rig
would work. Many years ago I thought of the two masted idea, but imagined
the crossbar being fixed, which would make reefing a problem. Sliding the
crossbar up the masts solves that. I've labeled the pics at flickr as
"Gallows Rig" but don't really like the name. Any suggestions?
Gary L.
Your signoff inspired me to share what I've been trying with the dipping
lug. Last summer ('05), I sailed Bufflehead with a dipping lug, balanced
lug, and split lug. I really liked the way the dipping lug set and pulled,
but it has the obvious disadvantage of having to be dipped. Since I am not
crossing oceans on the same tack for days on end, I more or less decided to
not develop and pursue the rig, though I did get pretty good at dipping it
singlehanded, at least in light winds. Also I didn't think it set that well
for downwind without adding a whisker pole to to hold out the clew. I did
have a tack track (rope) which I used to get a better sheeting angle on
Bufflhead's narrow beam.
Anyway, a few weeks ago I had the idea to try two masts, one on each side of
the hull, with a crossbar between them. The yard of the dipper is lashed to
the middle of the crossbar, and the bar slides up the masts by pulling on
both halyards at once. I tried it oout in the yard with the boat on the
trailer. There are a couple pictures here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57697224@N00/This was with the 9'x12'
rectangular tarp that I had been using as a dipping lugs'l. I recut the
sail to put an angle to the yard and took it for a sail on a light wind day.
The wind was a bit lighter than I would have liked, but it did very well.
There happened to be a guy out in a Ian Oughtred Caledonia Yawl, half the
weight of Bufflehead with 170 sf of sail to my 100sf and I did pretty well
sailing alongside him. I was actually beating him, to his chagrin, until he
discovered the kelp that was hooked on his rudder! I am going to make
another tarp sail of 135 sf to try it again. I have refined the crossbar to
mast join with pvc plumbing fittings as sleeves. The original trial I just
had parrels. On each tack I haul the clew to windward and resheet on the
lee rail. I think having the yard offset to leeward of the tack helps the
shape. Unfortunately I forgot my camera the day I went sailing, so no pics
of that yet. I guess the windage of the extra mast will be the main
disadvantage of the rig. The weight isn't too much with one mast weighing 7
lbs and the other about 5 lbs. The crossbar is 3 at the most, a piece of
windsurfer mast. Also now the mast isn't in the way right in front of the
hatch, which it was with the original rig. I will probably use some sort of
whisker pole or an oar to hold the clew out on runs.
I've alway liked the Ocean Crossing Rowboat and wondered how that low rig
would work. Many years ago I thought of the two masted idea, but imagined
the crossbar being fixed, which would make reefing a problem. Sliding the
crossbar up the masts solves that. I've labeled the pics at flickr as
"Gallows Rig" but don't really like the name. Any suggestions?
Gary L.
----- Original Message -----
From: "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
> cheers
> Graeme
> - who's wondered from time to time, about wondering from time to
> time "is the Bolger Flying Splinter/Ocean-Crossing Rowboat sides-
> swapping, mast-stepping, dipping lugs'l on a Fishcat" so crazy,
> merely certifiable, or double the fun?
>
> (See what gains Ross Turner claims for his catamaran genoa tack
> track and sheeting, for down wind and pointing.
>http://members.optusnet.com.au/rhturner1/cc29.htmlImproved
> pointing performance for a sides-swapping mast dipping lug sail
> might be most similar to Turner's genoa if sheeted to the same side
> as the tack??)