Re: [bolger] Re: Inlet Runner

PCB suggested this to me, but the original FastMS had a Diablo type
hull, so you would have the multi chine hull on to which one could put
the box keel and cutwater. Clyde

donschultz8275 wrote:

>
> Back in November I said FMS and Inlet Runner were the same hull.
> That was wrong, but they are similar enough that one might consider
> buying FMS plans for the details of construction, etc, but use
> Freeship or Hulls for the dimensions/shapes of bulkheads and panels.
>
> Don
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, Clyde
> Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
> >
> > Bruce, I'm back to looking at or admiring inlet runner. Could you
> do one
> > of your layouts of a grand diablo with a box cutwater added? Clyde
> Wisner
> >
> >
> > Bruce Hallman wrote:
> >
> > > > > > Inlet Runner,
> > >
> > > Inlet runner would make a spectacular Westcoast sport salmon
> fishing
> > > platform. It is pretty big (8'6"wide) for a trailer, but would
> fit.
> > > Also, I predict it could be built quickly and cheaply using 1/2"
> MDO
> > > plywood, with epoxy/fiberglass taped seams. You could use
> Freeship to
> > > get the expanded panel layout.
> >
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Back in November I said FMS and Inlet Runner were the same hull.
That was wrong, but they are similar enough that one might consider
buying FMS plans for the details of construction, etc, but use
Freeship or Hulls for the dimensions/shapes of bulkheads and panels.

Don

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
>
> Bruce, I'm back to looking at or admiring inlet runner. Could you
do one
> of your layouts of a grand diablo with a box cutwater added? Clyde
Wisner
>
>
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> > > > > Inlet Runner,
> >
> > Inlet runner would make a spectacular Westcoast sport salmon
fishing
> > platform. It is pretty big (8'6"wide) for a trailer, but would
fit.
> > Also, I predict it could be built quickly and cheaply using 1/2"
MDO
> > plywood, with epoxy/fiberglass taped seams. You could use
Freeship to
> > get the expanded panel layout.
>
Bruce, I'm back to looking at or admiring inlet runner. Could you do one
of your layouts of a grand diablo with a box cutwater added? Clyde Wisner


Bruce Hallman wrote:

> > > > Inlet Runner,
>
> Inlet runner would make a spectacular Westcoast sport salmon fishing
> platform. It is pretty big (8'6"wide) for a trailer, but would fit.
> Also, I predict it could be built quickly and cheaply using 1/2" MDO
> plywood, with epoxy/fiberglass taped seams. You could use Freeship to
> get the expanded panel layout.
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So, did you buy one Nels? <g> It did feel good to see that Mike O'Brien
liked the catalog so much. :o)

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:41:16 -0800, Nels wrote:


> Hey John,
>
> Congratulations on the WB review of your plans catalogue of Atkins
> designs!
>
> Here is the opening quote from the review by senior editor Mike O'Brien:
>
> "Please allow me to place the conclusion of this review before the
> introduction: Atkin & Co, Boat Designs for Unregimented Yachtsmen is
> one of the best catalogs of boat plans ever printed. Buy it. Buy it now."
>
> How good is that!
> ...

--
John <jkohnen@...>
Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows anything about
it, he shouldn't. <G. B. Shaw>
>All plywoods manufactured in Canada use phenol formalehybe >glues. It is explained down the left-hand column at this link.

Your right about interior ply made by members of CANPLY; but, not all manufacturers belong to CANPLY and still use urea formaldehyde. And like you say who knows what's in foreign ply.

It's good to see changes in safety. Formally Canadian interior ply could not be sold in Sweden because of urea off-gasing. Since Canada relies on exporting 85% of it's lumber products - a change was forced.
















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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...> wrote:
> >Exterior and marine plywood is made with urea-formaldehyde glue.
>
> Both exterior and marine plywoods use phenol-formaldehyde. Interior
grade plywoods uses urea-formaldehyde - which is why one should never
use interior grade plywoods - which can gas-off toixc compounds.
>

All plywoods manufactured in Canada use phenol formalehybe glues. It
is explained down the left-hand column at this link.

http://www.canply.org/english/products/manufacturing/manufacture.htm

I expect each country may have it's own specs. Off-shore brands... who
knows?

Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Oops! Right you are. I _knew_ that! I even posted a message to a
mailing
> list once saying that phenol-formaldehyde glue is what's used in
exterior
> plywood. But my brain hiccuped today... I guess nobody should believe
> anything I write on the subject of glues either. <g>
>
Hey John,

Congratulations on the WB review of your plans catalogue of Atkins
designs!

Here is the opening quote from the review by senior editor Mike O'Brien:

"Please allow me to place the conclusion of this review before the
introduction: Atkin & Co, Boat Designs for Unregimented Yachtsmen is
one of the best catalogs of boat plans ever printed. Buy it. Buy it now."

How good is that!

Well the only thing that could top it would be one for Bolger designs
I guess.

Kudos to John. What a guy we have in our midst!

Nels
>Exterior and marine plywood is made with urea-formaldehyde glue.

Both exterior and marine plywoods use phenol-formaldehyde. Interior grade plywoods uses urea-formaldehyde - which is why one should never use interior grade plywoods - which can gas-off toixc compounds.







__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oops, sorry about my previous post. I guess I should have read your follow-up
before I sent my response. That's what I get for letting hundreds of emails
pile up while I'm out at the shop working on a boat for days at a time ...

Sincerely,
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com




> Oops! Right you are. I _knew_ that! I even posted a message to a mailing
> list once saying that phenol-formaldehyde glue is what's used in exterior
> plywood. But my brain hiccuped today... I guess nobody should believe
> anything I write on the subject of glues either. <g>
>
> > Well, either resorcinol-formaldehyde glue or, more likely, phenol
> > formaldehyde.
> Exterior and marine plywood is made with urea-formaldehyde glue.

The marine plywood I get is glued with phenol formaldehyde, which if I'm not
mistaken is supposedly stronger and/or more waterproof than urea
formaldehyde.

Sincerely,
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Oops! Right you are. I _knew_ that! I even posted a message to a mailing
list once saying that phenol-formaldehyde glue is what's used in exterior
plywood. But my brain hiccuped today... I guess nobody should believe
anything I write on the subject of glues either. <g>

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:08:51 -0800, Howard S wrote:

> Well, either resorcinol-formaldehyde glue or, more likely, phenol
> formaldehyde.
>
> See:http://sres-associated.anu.edu.au/fpt/plywood/glueing.html

--
John <jkohnen@...>
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow. <Mark
Twain>
Exterior and marine plywood is made with urea-formaldehyde glue. I
wouldn't believe anything else I read by someone who says they're made
with resorcinol... But nobody claims that polyurethane glue is truly
waterproof. A little moisture helps it cure though, you actually need to
dampen the wood if it's very dry or you get poor adhesion.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:56:15 -0800, Guy V wrote:

> Something I read somewhere on the web: Polyurethane glue is not good
> with wet wood. The website claimed this is why Marine and exterior
> plywood uses resorcinal glue. Can anybody confirm or deny this rumor?
> ...

--
John <jkohnen@...>
Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. <Henry David Thoreau>
Well, either resorcinol-formaldehyde glue or, more likely, phenol
formaldehyde.

See:http://sres-associated.anu.edu.au/fpt/plywood/glueing.html

Howard


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Vandegrift" <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
>
> Something I read somewhere on the web: Polyurethane glue is not good
> with wet wood. The website claimed this is why Marine and exterior
> plywood uses resorcinal glue. Can anybody confirm or deny this
rumor?
Something I read somewhere on the web: Polyurethane glue is not good
with wet wood. The website claimed this is why Marine and exterior
plywood uses resorcinal glue. Can anybody confirm or deny this rumor?

BTW I did put a couple of drops of polyurethane glue into water, and
instead of the explosive hardening one would expect from a
water-catalyst glue, the drops stayed soft and uncured. Perhaps the
water made a tough skin that prevented penetration.

Guy

> I built a Spur II using Gorilla Glue, over a period of six cold rainy
> weeks, five years ago, working outdoors.
>
> Gorilla Glue is much superior to epoxy when working with wet wood.
>
> Otherwise, IMO epoxy is better, and epoxy is my present favorite.
> Gorilla Glue vs.

> Epoxy

I built a Spur II using Gorilla Glue, over a period of six cold rainy
weeks, five years ago, working outdoors.

Gorilla Glue is much superior to epoxy when working with wet wood.

Otherwise, IMO epoxy is better, and epoxy is my present favorite.

(I put the second side onto Topaz Spyder over the turkey weekend, and
then spent a bit of time inside the boat imagining warm sunny days at
the lake.)
Gorilla Glue looses stringth when it foams to fill gaps so to use it
for lose joints wouldn't be a good idea besides saying Water Resistant
on the back in small print. Epoxy is hard to beat mixed in small
batches in a plastic toumbler. Precoat point faces with unthickened and
thickened to fill gaps and glue joint then clamp only as hard as needed
to hold in place. Wipe drips and squeaze out with clean rag.

Jon
> believe Bruce Hallman built his Spur with Gorilla Glue.

Spur II still is holding together.

Since then, thickened epoxy has become my favorite glue.

(In either case, buy gloves by the case!)
I hate to do anything the same way twice running, so I have used just
about every combination of glues.

I have had good results with Gorilla glue and PL Premium. I built an
Elegant Punt or rather a student friend built it for a school project
this spring. We used PL Premium and a staple gun, fast way to go. If I
am going to use scarfed joints that will be under stress ( chines or
gunnel's) I tend to go with epoxy. Weldwood is real good glue, it
requires good fitting joints. I swear that Titebond III is just premix
Weldwood in a bottle. I have been using TB III a lot lately because it
is easy to clean up and holds well. Gorilla Glue is a lot messier. I
believe Bruce Hallman built his Spur with Gorilla Glue.

My father who was a master shipwright always used Weldwood, all they had
in his day. He used it in made up masts and I know some that lasted 30
years in SF Bay conditions.

HJ

Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> Has anyone tried "Gorilla Glue"?
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> Nels wrote:
>
>> snip..
>>
>> I wonder what is the best waterborn glue these days? I have used the
>> urea-formaldyhyde (Aerolite aka Weldwood plastic resin glue)but hear
>> it is not that safe a glue. It is what LaRowe used in the original
>> Micro build.
>>
>> snip..
>>
>>
>
>
>
I've used it for small cabinet work. It doesn't seem to have great
gap-filling properties -- it sort of bubbles to fill the gap, and so I
don't think I'd use it for any seams that matter on a boat. (Maybe for
interior joinery.)

Patrick

Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> Has anyone tried "Gorilla Glue"?
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> Nels wrote:
>
>> snip..
>>
>> I wonder what is the best waterborn glue these days? I have used the
>> urea-formaldyhyde (Aerolite aka Weldwood plastic resin glue)but hear
>> it is not that safe a glue. It is what LaRowe used in the original
>> Micro build.
>>
>> snip..
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
>
> Somewhere in his writings, Payson recommends "resorcinol".
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
I think where extreme exposure to the elements might be a factor.
Requires tight joints and heavy clamping pressure. Good for oily
woods, such as teak and oak, which Bolger tends to not require in his
instant-type boats.

Nels
Somewhere in his writings, Payson recommends "resorcinol".

V/R
Chris

Joe Tribulato wrote:
> Aerolite and Weldwood Plastic Resin glues are different. The Aerolite
> that I have used is two part. A thin liquid brushed on one side and
> honey like stuff on the other side of the joint. Must be joined before
> the liquid dries, not easy on a long joint. I have tried both and I'll
> stick with epoxy, more forgiving of less than perfect fits.
>
> "People who build prestigious ships do not allow large gaps."
> --(a well known English boatbuilder whose name I can't quite recall
> just now.)
>
> Joe T
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> I wonder what is the best waterborn glue these days? I have used the
>> urea-formaldyhyde (Aerolite aka Weldwood plastic resin glue)but hear
>> it is not that safe a glue. It is what LaRowe used in the original
>> Micro build. ...
>>
>> Nels
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Aerolite and Weldwood Plastic Resin glues are different. The Aerolite
that I have used is two part. A thin liquid brushed on one side and
honey like stuff on the other side of the joint. Must be joined before
the liquid dries, not easy on a long joint. I have tried both and I'll
stick with epoxy, more forgiving of less than perfect fits.

"People who build prestigious ships do not allow large gaps."
--(a well known English boatbuilder whose name I can't quite recall
just now.)

Joe T

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
> ...
> I wonder what is the best waterborn glue these days? I have used the
> urea-formaldyhyde (Aerolite aka Weldwood plastic resin glue)but hear
> it is not that safe a glue. It is what LaRowe used in the original
> Micro build. ...
>
> Nels
>
Not to dispute what you say, but I wonder if the FAA's "type certification" is not the real reason they keep using the Approved Glue in contrast with epoxy. Getting signed pieces of paper from the bureaucrats is very tough. That said, most homebuilts don't have type certification. They use passenger warning labels that state that this aircraft is neither built nor maintained to FAA standards. Stearman and Pitts can be either homebuilt or factory built.

I just got my flight physical certificate renewed after two months of letters. No question of my health, but the proper original forms have to be received at the proper office. Copies aren't good enough and hospital mail rooms aren't well staffed.

No question that a proper joint with Weldwood Plastic Resin is as good as epoxy, it's just that it takes more skill, is harder to clamp, and isn't that much cheaper.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:20 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: fiberglass over ply


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "camalexander2002" <calex@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
> >
> > Based on what I've read, the fiberglass is not there to strengthen
> the boat. It's there to strengthen the epoxy so that scratches,
> cracks and dings don't let water into the wood.
>
> That's my take on it. Besides, smoothness is an over-rated concept.
> Cam
>

If the following critera is applied:

1. Boat is 20 feet or less using 10 HP or less.

2. Uses the Payson " instant boat" building method with a waterborn
glue, ring and wire nails.

3.Is trailer sailed, has a good cover and is kept painted.

It can be built without using epoxy and will probably last 20 years or
so - which is the warranty period for crezone.

I wonder what is the best waterborn glue these days? I have used the
urea-formaldyhyde (Aerolite aka Weldwood plastic resin glue)but hear
it is not that safe a glue. It is what LaRowe used in the original
Micro build.

Here is an excerpt from a home-built aircraft site.

"The wing ribs of the Pitts Special are today built with Weldwood
Plastic Resin glue, they always have been, and it's a fully FAA
certificated design. Stearman wing ribs have been made for 50 years
with the stuff. Production Falcos from the 1950's and 60's were built
with Aerolite, and there's been no pattern of glue problems."

However this info is from 1996 and most home builders now have been
brainwashed into using epoxy. I think the joint-filling qualities of
epoxy are the main attraction.

The other item - silicon-bronze ring nails have sort of gone out of
popularity too. Boy do those suckers hold.

http://tinyurl.com/ttl2n

Available through Noah's or Jamestown Dist.

Nels

Nels





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Has anyone tried "Gorilla Glue"?

V/R
Chris

Nels wrote:
> snip..
>
> I wonder what is the best waterborn glue these days? I have used the
> urea-formaldyhyde (Aerolite aka Weldwood plastic resin glue)but hear
> it is not that safe a glue. It is what LaRowe used in the original
> Micro build.
>
> snip..
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "camalexander2002" <calex@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
> >
> > Based on what I've read, the fiberglass is not there to strengthen
> the boat. It's there to strengthen the epoxy so that scratches,
> cracks and dings don't let water into the wood.
>
> That's my take on it. Besides, smoothness is an over-rated concept.
> Cam
>

If the following critera is applied:

1. Boat is 20 feet or less using 10 HP or less.

2. Uses the Payson " instant boat" building method with a waterborn
glue, ring and wire nails.

3.Is trailer sailed, has a good cover and is kept painted.

It can be built without using epoxy and will probably last 20 years or
so - which is the warranty period for crezone.

I wonder what is the best waterborn glue these days? I have used the
urea-formaldyhyde (Aerolite aka Weldwood plastic resin glue)but hear
it is not that safe a glue. It is what LaRowe used in the original
Micro build.

Here is an excerpt from a home-built aircraft site.

"The wing ribs of the Pitts Special are today built with Weldwood
Plastic Resin glue, they always have been, and it's a fully FAA
certificated design. Stearman wing ribs have been made for 50 years
with the stuff. Production Falcos from the 1950's and 60's were built
with Aerolite, and there's been no pattern of glue problems."

However this info is from 1996 and most home builders now have been
brainwashed into using epoxy. I think the joint-filling qualities of
epoxy are the main attraction.

The other item - silicon-bronze ring nails have sort of gone out of
popularity too. Boy do those suckers hold.

http://tinyurl.com/ttl2n

Available through Noah's or Jamestown Dist.

Nels


Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> Based on what I've read, the fiberglass is not there to strengthen
the boat. It's there to strengthen the epoxy so that scratches,
cracks and dings don't let water into the wood.

That's my take on it. Besides, smoothness is an over-rated concept.
Cam
>
> Kenneth you don't see many fast wood airplanes anymore
> being built. They are mostly molded glass. If wood was
> so good then Boeing would still be useing it to build
> aircraft.
>
> With homebuilt aircraft builders wood is still used a
> lot. I also like working with wood as well. So I'm not
> knocking wood but there are ways to make it a better
> hull platting and to keep it lighter.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>

Anytime one sees the phrase "one doesn't see any X anymore", what is
being described is unlikely to be a fundamental structural property.
There are a lot of reasons for declining use of wood though most
important is the change in widespread cheap availability, though that
still fairly well describes the distribution, but it still isn't what
it used to be. However if flat panels are the game, wood still is
cheap and widely available. Just one of those things.
> Based on what I've read, the fiberglass is not there to strengthen
the boat. It's there to strengthen the epoxy so that scratches,
cracks and dings don't let water into the wood.

The latter part of that is certainly true, however glass does
strengthen the wood also. Obviously in the sens that it can
strengthen joints, but even on the flat panels you can count on
roughly the same effect as an equal thickness of wood. Wood is
lighter so was does seem to be true is that using a lot of glass in
situations where wood could be used is not a good trade-off, but that
message seems to often get relayed as the glass doesn't strengthent
he wood.

>
> The floppy fiberglass is fairly easy to stretch over the odd shapes
of a boat. A tighter, flatter weave would probably help for flat
surfaces, but ??? I also worry about the various coatings put on
fiberglass. I know the stuff designed for polyester resin won't work
with epoxy since epoxy doesn't contain the necessary solvent.

The last thing I heard on this count is that epoxy is so ubiquitous
that you will rarely find anyone making or at least stocking cloth
with the wrong finish. In 25 years of building boats all my question
about the finish on the glass a particular store had for sale came
back saying it work fine with epoxy.


> As far as real fairing; i.e. correcting the shape of the boat, I
plan to try the method suggested by System Three. They recommend
using epoxy with a phenolic bubble filler applied with a toothed
trowel to leave a ridged layer.

That system works great. I first picked that up from the Australians
who were pushing duracore strips. It's one of the few applications
where I use 410, phenolic is pretty hard to sand. I have used the 3M
soft glass balloons also.
Based on what I've read, the fiberglass is not there to strengthen the boat. It's there to strengthen the epoxy so that scratches, cracks and dings don't let water into the wood.

The floppy fiberglass is fairly easy to stretch over the odd shapes of a boat. A tighter, flatter weave would probably help for flat surfaces, but ??? I also worry about the various coatings put on fiberglass. I know the stuff designed for polyester resin won't work with epoxy since epoxy doesn't contain the necessary solvent.

For filling the weave and fairing in the edges of fiberglass tape, I sure like the technique of putting on scraps from a vinyl drop cloth and working out the bubbles. It leaves a smooth, glossy surface. Of course if you wait too long before the next coat, you have to scratch it up to give a tooth for bonding, but that's trivial compared to sanding to level an uneven surface. Working out the air bubbles is critical since they leave craters that are really hard to fill if you wait more than a day or two. I usually apply the vinyl smoothed coat as soon as the fiberglass/epoxy layer is tacky; i.e. it's stuck down well enough that your aren't going to move it around.

As far as real fairing; i.e. correcting the shape of the boat, I plan to try the method suggested by System Three. They recommend using epoxy with a phenolic bubble filler applied with a toothed trowel to leave a ridged layer. Once it's set up, fair it by sanding the tops of the ridges. There's less to remove and the dust drops into the valleys leaving your sandpaper more effective. After you have the shape you want, then dust it well and fill the valleys with a second coat of the fairing mix. After that you put on a thin third coat to seal the phenolic bubbles that you sanded open lest your coat of paint look dull.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: Kristine Bennett
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] fiberglass over ply


You know the style of glass cloth weave can save you a
lot of time fairing. Your industrial fabrics tend to
have a tighter and flater weave. Here are a couple of
styles that may help you when you sheath your hull,
Style 220, 3.22 oz./yd.² and Style 7781, 8.95 oz./yd.²
they are a nice tight and flat weave.

Fiberglass Supply has some good info on the types of
glass cloth out there. www.fiberglasssupply.com

Their prices are fair and they ship next day most
times.

Blessings Krissie

--- John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
wrote:

> I just spent 4 rather unpleasent days filling the
> weave and fairing tapes using epoxy and micro
> balloons. The result is no doubt stonger and
> stiffer than bare wood, but there is considerable
> effort and discomfort involved. I think that next
> time I'll go with either bare plywood lapstrake or
> bare plywood on frame. (I will, of course put some
> sort of finish on the bare plywood.)
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kristine Bennett
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:10 PM
> Subject: [bolger] fiberglass over ply
>
>
> Kenneth what you say about wood being lighter is
> true.
> But it is not stronger then e glass pound for
> pound.
> IF I remember right 12 oz knitted biaxial fabrics
> has
> a tensile of around 1500 to 1600 lbs per inch. and
> it
> would be .025 of and inch thick give or take.
>
> When added to just one side of a 1/4" ply panel it
> would add about 20% to the stiffness of the panel.
> Now
> if you add it to both side of the panel the
> stiffness
> goes up to 200% or more. And the strength goes up
> something like three times over just the ply.
>
> OK 1/4" ply weights in at 10.75 oz. per sq.ft. The
> above fiberglass layup would add 5 oz. per sq.ft.
> to
> the panel, that is glassing both sides. So you
> have a
> hull panel that is 16 oz. per sq.ft. To get
> plywood to
> be about the same you need to step up to 1/2", and
> it
> is 21.5 oz. per sq.ft.
>
> Now to top it all off for most of the small wood
> boats
> that are made 1/4" ply has the strength needed for
> the
> hull! What is MISSING is the stiffness in the
> panel
> not the strength. You need the stiffness to keep
> the
> panel from buckling. So what do they do to stop
> this
> they go to thicker hull plating or closer spaced
> frames.
>
> Yes it will add to the cost to build along with
> added
> time. But when you look over the life of the hull
> it
> is less costly for a boat you intend to keep a
> long
> time. The hull will not rot seeing how the whole
> thing
> is sealed in epoxy. Unless you make a way for the
> water to get into the wood.
>
> You have to remember when it comes to a planing
> hull
> the lighter you are the faster you are going to be
> for
> a given HP. This is also true for sailboats as
> well.
>
> Kenneth you don't see many fast wood airplanes
> anymore
> being built. They are mostly molded glass. If wood
> was
> so good then Boeing would still be useing it to
> build
> aircraft.
>
> With homebuilt aircraft builders wood is still
> used a
> lot. I also like working with wood as well. So I'm
> not
> knocking wood but there are ways to make it a
> better
> hull platting and to keep it lighter.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> --- Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Wood is actually lighter than glass and epoxy,
> and
> > it costs a lot less too, so
> > I'm not convinced that your "lighter and
> stronger"
> > conclusion is correct.
> >
> > I've been considering the use of thinner than
> spec'd
> > plywood on Tolman Skiffs
> > but my numbers tell me they will weigh more than
> the
> > thicker spec'd plywood
> > -- and they will certainly cost more to build
> > because glass/epoxy costs a lot
> > more than plywood.
> >
> > The boats *might* be stronger with more
> glass/epoxy
> > and less wood -- but I
> > have my doubts about this as well -- since
> plywood
> > becomes exponentially
> > stronger the thicker it gets. I think it depends
> > upon the type of glass you
> > use, and whether or not you use it properly to
> > achieve the added strength
> > you're after.
> >
> > Bottom line (for me anyways) is that I think it
> > makes sense to use as thick a
> > plywood as you need for strength and stiffness,
> then
> > use epoxy/glass on the
> > outer hull wear points for toughness and
> abrasion
> > resistance.
> >
> > And if you feel like you have to, go ahead and
> > glass/epoxy the outer hull with
> > light cloth so the paint sticks better and/or
> for
> > checking prevention. But
> > if you do this, be prepared for higher costs,
> and
> > more work, and a heavier
> > boat when you're finished -- because this is
> likely
> > what you'll end up with.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Kenneth Grome
> > Bagacay Boatworks
> > www.bagacayboatworks.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Compare mortgage rates for today.
> Get up to 5 free quotes.
> Www2.nextag.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/538 -
> Release Date: 11/18/2006
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well stiffness had to do with thickness of the panel
and how much elongation the panel faces have. I have
heard the same thing both ways.

I know what I have done building boats at a number
shops. And to keep the overall weight down, thin
ply/core and glass seens to be the best way to do
that.

Look at a ply-foam-ply panel, they are light and stiff
but how do you splice them? I know it can be done but
is it worth it for a small boat?

It boils down to do what works for the design you are
building.

Blessings Krissie

--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:

> Food for thought, Krissie. You suggest that a
> fibreglass/ply/fibrepanel will have greater tensile
> strength than a
> thicker all-plywood panel of the same weight per
> unit area. But I've
> been led to believe by several writer-designers that
> an all-plywood
> panel of a certain thickness will be stiffer than a
> slightly thinner
> fibreglass/ply/fibreglass panel of the same weight
> per unit area.
>
> Is that correct, or have I been misled?
>
> Howard
>
>




____________________________________________________________________________________
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You know the style of glass cloth weave can save you a
lot of time fairing. Your industrial fabrics tend to
have a tighter and flater weave. Here are a couple of
styles that may help you when you sheath your hull,
Style 220, 3.22 oz./yd.² and Style 7781, 8.95 oz./yd.²
they are a nice tight and flat weave.

Fiberglass Supply has some good info on the types of
glass cloth out there. www.fiberglasssupply.com

Their prices are fair and they ship next day most
times.

Blessings Krissie

--- John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
wrote:

> I just spent 4 rather unpleasent days filling the
> weave and fairing tapes using epoxy and micro
> balloons. The result is no doubt stonger and
> stiffer than bare wood, but there is considerable
> effort and discomfort involved. I think that next
> time I'll go with either bare plywood lapstrake or
> bare plywood on frame. (I will, of course put some
> sort of finish on the bare plywood.)
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kristine Bennett
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:10 PM
> Subject: [bolger] fiberglass over ply
>
>
> Kenneth what you say about wood being lighter is
> true.
> But it is not stronger then e glass pound for
> pound.
> IF I remember right 12 oz knitted biaxial fabrics
> has
> a tensile of around 1500 to 1600 lbs per inch. and
> it
> would be .025 of and inch thick give or take.
>
> When added to just one side of a 1/4" ply panel it
> would add about 20% to the stiffness of the panel.
> Now
> if you add it to both side of the panel the
> stiffness
> goes up to 200% or more. And the strength goes up
> something like three times over just the ply.
>
> OK 1/4" ply weights in at 10.75 oz. per sq.ft. The
> above fiberglass layup would add 5 oz. per sq.ft.
> to
> the panel, that is glassing both sides. So you
> have a
> hull panel that is 16 oz. per sq.ft. To get
> plywood to
> be about the same you need to step up to 1/2", and
> it
> is 21.5 oz. per sq.ft.
>
> Now to top it all off for most of the small wood
> boats
> that are made 1/4" ply has the strength needed for
> the
> hull! What is MISSING is the stiffness in the
> panel
> not the strength. You need the stiffness to keep
> the
> panel from buckling. So what do they do to stop
> this
> they go to thicker hull plating or closer spaced
> frames.
>
> Yes it will add to the cost to build along with
> added
> time. But when you look over the life of the hull
> it
> is less costly for a boat you intend to keep a
> long
> time. The hull will not rot seeing how the whole
> thing
> is sealed in epoxy. Unless you make a way for the
> water to get into the wood.
>
> You have to remember when it comes to a planing
> hull
> the lighter you are the faster you are going to be
> for
> a given HP. This is also true for sailboats as
> well.
>
> Kenneth you don't see many fast wood airplanes
> anymore
> being built. They are mostly molded glass. If wood
> was
> so good then Boeing would still be useing it to
> build
> aircraft.
>
> With homebuilt aircraft builders wood is still
> used a
> lot. I also like working with wood as well. So I'm
> not
> knocking wood but there are ways to make it a
> better
> hull platting and to keep it lighter.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> --- Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Wood is actually lighter than glass and epoxy,
> and
> > it costs a lot less too, so
> > I'm not convinced that your "lighter and
> stronger"
> > conclusion is correct.
> >
> > I've been considering the use of thinner than
> spec'd
> > plywood on Tolman Skiffs
> > but my numbers tell me they will weigh more than
> the
> > thicker spec'd plywood
> > -- and they will certainly cost more to build
> > because glass/epoxy costs a lot
> > more than plywood.
> >
> > The boats *might* be stronger with more
> glass/epoxy
> > and less wood -- but I
> > have my doubts about this as well -- since
> plywood
> > becomes exponentially
> > stronger the thicker it gets. I think it depends
> > upon the type of glass you
> > use, and whether or not you use it properly to
> > achieve the added strength
> > you're after.
> >
> > Bottom line (for me anyways) is that I think it
> > makes sense to use as thick a
> > plywood as you need for strength and stiffness,
> then
> > use epoxy/glass on the
> > outer hull wear points for toughness and
> abrasion
> > resistance.
> >
> > And if you feel like you have to, go ahead and
> > glass/epoxy the outer hull with
> > light cloth so the paint sticks better and/or
> for
> > checking prevention. But
> > if you do this, be prepared for higher costs,
> and
> > more work, and a heavier
> > boat when you're finished -- because this is
> likely
> > what you'll end up with.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Kenneth Grome
> > Bagacay Boatworks
> > www.bagacayboatworks.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Compare mortgage rates for today.
> Get up to 5 free quotes.
> Www2.nextag.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/538 -
> Release Date: 11/18/2006
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




____________________________________________________________________________________
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www.Classesusa.com
It will be a lot stiffer.

HJ

Howard Stephenson wrote:
> Food for thought, Krissie. You suggest that a
> fibreglass/ply/fibrepanel will have greater tensile strength than a
> thicker all-plywood panel of the same weight per unit area. But I've
> been led to believe by several writer-designers that an all-plywood
> panel of a certain thickness will be stiffer than a slightly thinner
> fibreglass/ply/fibreglass panel of the same weight per unit area.
>
> Is that correct, or have I been misled?
>
> Howard
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@...>
wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@> wrote:
> Kristine,
> I think that you should have a look at a few easily obtained text
> books which deal with this subject. In Dave Gerr's book, 'The Nature
> of Boats' there is extensive discussion on this very subject
> (including why wood is not used to build the 747 and the space
> shuttle). In particular, the matter of 'stiffness-to-weight ratio',
> and 'structural efficiency' is covered in detail. Further
> information is available in Dave's book, 'Boat Strength'.
>
> 'The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction' is another book which
> deals very well with the subject in good detail - see the initial
> discussion on wood as an engineering material.
>
> Jim Michalak has recently written a series of essays dealing with
> panel stiffness - you can find them on Jim's website (Jim is an ex-
> missile engineer). The significant point is that panel stiffness
> increases according to the CUBE of the increase in thickness. If it
> is panel stiffness that you want, put the weight investment into
> increased panel thickness rather than sheathing (the Gougeon
> Brothers book indicates that glass sheathing has a minimal effect on
> panel stiffness, but increases weight significantly).
>
I would like to add PCB&F to that list. Particularly their advice on
two thin plies encasing a foam core as recommended with BirdwatcherII.
Resilance as well as added floatation rendering the hull virtually
unsinkable, as well as providing insulation.

Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
Kristine,
I think that you should have a look at a few easily obtained text
books which deal with this subject. In Dave Gerr's book, 'The Nature
of Boats' there is extensive discussion on this very subject
(including why wood is not used to build the 747 and the space
shuttle). In particular, the matter of 'stiffness-to-weight ratio',
and 'structural efficiency' is covered in detail. Further
information is available in Dave's book, 'Boat Strength'.

'The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction' is another book which
deals very well with the subject in good detail - see the initial
discussion on wood as an engineering material.

Jim Michalak has recently written a series of essays dealing with
panel stiffness - you can find them on Jim's website (Jim is an ex-
missile engineer). The significant point is that panel stiffness
increases according to the CUBE of the increase in thickness. If it
is panel stiffness that you want, put the weight investment into
increased panel thickness rather than sheathing (the Gougeon
Brothers book indicates that glass sheathing has a minimal effect on
panel stiffness, but increases weight significantly).

As for my own opinion, I am using sheathing materials less and less
as I get older (and more experienced). The only time that I give
sheathing any consideration now, is if I'm concerned about abrasion
resistance, or if I need to get a consistent thickness of epoxy over
a surface as a moisture barrier - in that case, the glass acts as a
screed and it helps to prevent crazing and cracking in the epoxy
coating. For impact resistance, I think that Kevlar is about the
only thing worth using, and that would go on the INSIDE of the panel
in my estimation (backed up by research carried out by the Gougeon
Brothers)

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but there you have my opinion.

Ross Lillistone
Australia

Kenneth what you say about wood being lighter is true.
> But it is not stronger then e glass pound for pound.
> IF I remember right 12 oz knitted biaxial fabrics has
> a tensile of around 1500 to 1600 lbs per inch. and it
> would be .025 of and inch thick give or take.
>
> When added to just one side of a 1/4" ply panel it
> would add about 20% to the stiffness of the panel. Now
> if you add it to both side of the panel the stiffness
> goes up to 200% or more. And the strength goes up
> something like three times over just the ply.
>
> OK 1/4" ply weights in at 10.75 oz. per sq.ft. The
> above fiberglass layup would add 5 oz. per sq.ft. to
> the panel, that is glassing both sides. So you have a
> hull panel that is 16 oz. per sq.ft. To get plywood to
> be about the same you need to step up to 1/2", and it
> is 21.5 oz. per sq.ft.
>
> Now to top it all off for most of the small wood boats
> that are made 1/4" ply has the strength needed for the
> hull! What is MISSING is the stiffness in the panel
> not the strength. You need the stiffness to keep the
> panel from buckling. So what do they do to stop this
> they go to thicker hull plating or closer spaced
> frames.
>
> Yes it will add to the cost to build along with added
> time. But when you look over the life of the hull it
> is less costly for a boat you intend to keep a long
> time. The hull will not rot seeing how the whole thing
> is sealed in epoxy. Unless you make a way for the
> water to get into the wood.
>
> You have to remember when it comes to a planing hull
> the lighter you are the faster you are going to be for
> a given HP. This is also true for sailboats as well.
>
> Kenneth you don't see many fast wood airplanes anymore
> being built. They are mostly molded glass. If wood was
> so good then Boeing would still be useing it to build
> aircraft.
>
> With homebuilt aircraft builders wood is still used a
> lot. I also like working with wood as well. So I'm not
> knocking wood but there are ways to make it a better
> hull platting and to keep it lighter.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
>
> --- Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
>
> > Wood is actually lighter than glass and epoxy, and
> > it costs a lot less too, so
> > I'm not convinced that your "lighter and stronger"
> > conclusion is correct.
> >
> > I've been considering the use of thinner than spec'd
> > plywood on Tolman Skiffs
> > but my numbers tell me they will weigh more than the
> > thicker spec'd plywood
> > -- and they will certainly cost more to build
> > because glass/epoxy costs a lot
> > more than plywood.
> >
> > The boats *might* be stronger with more glass/epoxy
> > and less wood -- but I
> > have my doubts about this as well -- since plywood
> > becomes exponentially
> > stronger the thicker it gets. I think it depends
> > upon the type of glass you
> > use, and whether or not you use it properly to
> > achieve the added strength
> > you're after.
> >
> > Bottom line (for me anyways) is that I think it
> > makes sense to use as thick a
> > plywood as you need for strength and stiffness, then
> > use epoxy/glass on the
> > outer hull wear points for toughness and abrasion
> > resistance.
> >
> > And if you feel like you have to, go ahead and
> > glass/epoxy the outer hull with
> > light cloth so the paint sticks better and/or for
> > checking prevention. But
> > if you do this, be prepared for higher costs, and
> > more work, and a heavier
> > boat when you're finished -- because this is likely
> > what you'll end up with.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Kenneth Grome
> > Bagacay Boatworks
> > www.bagacayboatworks.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Compare mortgage rates for today.
> Get up to 5 free quotes.
> Www2.nextag.com
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Kenneth what you say about wood being lighter is true.
> But it is not stronger then e glass pound for pound.
> IF I remember right 12 oz knitted biaxial fabrics has
> a tensile of around 1500 to 1600 lbs per inch. and it
> would be .025 of and inch thick give or take.
>
> When added to just one side of a 1/4" ply panel it
> would add about 20% to the stiffness of the panel. Now
> if you add it to both side of the panel the stiffness
> goes up to 200% or more. And the strength goes up
> something like three times over just the ply.
>
If I felt 1/4" was not going to be stiff enough, my first choice would
be to go to 3/8" plywood. Big difference, especially if you can get 5
equal plies on the 3/8" stuff.

I bought some some biaxial for a BEE and probably never will use it as
it would be a lot more work than just covering 3/8" with 4 oz glass.
Some flexibility can be worthwhile especially if the hull has curves
in both sides and bottom.

That is the lazy man's choice:-)

Nels
Food for thought, Krissie. You suggest that a
fibreglass/ply/fibrepanel will have greater tensile strength than a
thicker all-plywood panel of the same weight per unit area. But I've
been led to believe by several writer-designers that an all-plywood
panel of a certain thickness will be stiffer than a slightly thinner
fibreglass/ply/fibreglass panel of the same weight per unit area.

Is that correct, or have I been misled?

Howard



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Kenneth what you say about wood being lighter is true.
> But it is not stronger then e glass pound for pound.
> IF I remember right 12 oz knitted biaxial fabrics has
> a tensile of around 1500 to 1600 lbs per inch. and it
> would be .025 of and inch thick give or take.
>
> When added to just one side of a 1/4" ply panel it
> would add about 20% to the stiffness of the panel. Now
> if you add it to both side of the panel the stiffness
> goes up to 200% or more. And the strength goes up
> something like three times over just the ply.
>
> OK 1/4" ply weights in at 10.75 oz. per sq.ft. The
> above fiberglass layup would add 5 oz. per sq.ft. to
> the panel, that is glassing both sides. So you have a
> hull panel that is 16 oz. per sq.ft. To get plywood to
> be about the same you need to step up to 1/2", and it
> is 21.5 oz. per sq.ft.
>
> Now to top it all off for most of the small wood boats
> that are made 1/4" ply has the strength needed for the
> hull! What is MISSING is the stiffness in the panel
> not the strength. You need the stiffness to keep the
> panel from buckling. So what do they do to stop this
> they go to thicker hull plating or closer spaced
> frames.
>
> Yes it will add to the cost to build along with added
> time. But when you look over the life of the hull it
> is less costly for a boat you intend to keep a long
> time. The hull will not rot seeing how the whole thing
> is sealed in epoxy. Unless you make a way for the
> water to get into the wood.
>
> You have to remember when it comes to a planing hull
> the lighter you are the faster you are going to be for
> a given HP. This is also true for sailboats as well.
>
> Kenneth you don't see many fast wood airplanes anymore
> being built. They are mostly molded glass. If wood was
> so good then Boeing would still be useing it to build
> aircraft.
>
> With homebuilt aircraft builders wood is still used a
> lot. I also like working with wood as well. So I'm not
> knocking wood but there are ways to make it a better
> hull platting and to keep it lighter.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
>
> --- Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
>
> > Wood is actually lighter than glass and epoxy, and
> > it costs a lot less too, so
> > I'm not convinced that your "lighter and stronger"
> > conclusion is correct.
> >
> > I've been considering the use of thinner than spec'd
> > plywood on Tolman Skiffs
> > but my numbers tell me they will weigh more than the
> > thicker spec'd plywood
> > -- and they will certainly cost more to build
> > because glass/epoxy costs a lot
> > more than plywood.
> >
> > The boats *might* be stronger with more glass/epoxy
> > and less wood -- but I
> > have my doubts about this as well -- since plywood
> > becomes exponentially
> > stronger the thicker it gets. I think it depends
> > upon the type of glass you
> > use, and whether or not you use it properly to
> > achieve the added strength
> > you're after.
> >
> > Bottom line (for me anyways) is that I think it
> > makes sense to use as thick a
> > plywood as you need for strength and stiffness, then
> > use epoxy/glass on the
> > outer hull wear points for toughness and abrasion
> > resistance.
> >
> > And if you feel like you have to, go ahead and
> > glass/epoxy the outer hull with
> > light cloth so the paint sticks better and/or for
> > checking prevention. But
> > if you do this, be prepared for higher costs, and
> > more work, and a heavier
> > boat when you're finished -- because this is likely
> > what you'll end up with.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Kenneth Grome
> > Bagacay Boatworks
> > www.bagacayboatworks.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Compare mortgage rates for today.
> Get up to 5 free quotes.
> Www2.nextag.com
>
I just spent 4 rather unpleasent days filling the weave and fairing tapes using epoxy and micro balloons. The result is no doubt stonger and stiffer than bare wood, but there is considerable effort and discomfort involved. I think that next time I'll go with either bare plywood lapstrake or bare plywood on frame. (I will, of course put some sort of finish on the bare plywood.)

John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristine Bennett
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: [bolger] fiberglass over ply


Kenneth what you say about wood being lighter is true.
But it is not stronger then e glass pound for pound.
IF I remember right 12 oz knitted biaxial fabrics has
a tensile of around 1500 to 1600 lbs per inch. and it
would be .025 of and inch thick give or take.

When added to just one side of a 1/4" ply panel it
would add about 20% to the stiffness of the panel. Now
if you add it to both side of the panel the stiffness
goes up to 200% or more. And the strength goes up
something like three times over just the ply.

OK 1/4" ply weights in at 10.75 oz. per sq.ft. The
above fiberglass layup would add 5 oz. per sq.ft. to
the panel, that is glassing both sides. So you have a
hull panel that is 16 oz. per sq.ft. To get plywood to
be about the same you need to step up to 1/2", and it
is 21.5 oz. per sq.ft.

Now to top it all off for most of the small wood boats
that are made 1/4" ply has the strength needed for the
hull! What is MISSING is the stiffness in the panel
not the strength. You need the stiffness to keep the
panel from buckling. So what do they do to stop this
they go to thicker hull plating or closer spaced
frames.

Yes it will add to the cost to build along with added
time. But when you look over the life of the hull it
is less costly for a boat you intend to keep a long
time. The hull will not rot seeing how the whole thing
is sealed in epoxy. Unless you make a way for the
water to get into the wood.

You have to remember when it comes to a planing hull
the lighter you are the faster you are going to be for
a given HP. This is also true for sailboats as well.

Kenneth you don't see many fast wood airplanes anymore
being built. They are mostly molded glass. If wood was
so good then Boeing would still be useing it to build
aircraft.

With homebuilt aircraft builders wood is still used a
lot. I also like working with wood as well. So I'm not
knocking wood but there are ways to make it a better
hull platting and to keep it lighter.

Blessings Krissie

--- Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:

> Wood is actually lighter than glass and epoxy, and
> it costs a lot less too, so
> I'm not convinced that your "lighter and stronger"
> conclusion is correct.
>
> I've been considering the use of thinner than spec'd
> plywood on Tolman Skiffs
> but my numbers tell me they will weigh more than the
> thicker spec'd plywood
> -- and they will certainly cost more to build
> because glass/epoxy costs a lot
> more than plywood.
>
> The boats *might* be stronger with more glass/epoxy
> and less wood -- but I
> have my doubts about this as well -- since plywood
> becomes exponentially
> stronger the thicker it gets. I think it depends
> upon the type of glass you
> use, and whether or not you use it properly to
> achieve the added strength
> you're after.
>
> Bottom line (for me anyways) is that I think it
> makes sense to use as thick a
> plywood as you need for strength and stiffness, then
> use epoxy/glass on the
> outer hull wear points for toughness and abrasion
> resistance.
>
> And if you feel like you have to, go ahead and
> glass/epoxy the outer hull with
> light cloth so the paint sticks better and/or for
> checking prevention. But
> if you do this, be prepared for higher costs, and
> more work, and a heavier
> boat when you're finished -- because this is likely
> what you'll end up with.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kenneth Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kenneth what you say about wood being lighter is true.
But it is not stronger then e glass pound for pound.
IF I remember right 12 oz knitted biaxial fabrics has
a tensile of around 1500 to 1600 lbs per inch. and it
would be .025 of and inch thick give or take.

When added to just one side of a 1/4" ply panel it
would add about 20% to the stiffness of the panel. Now
if you add it to both side of the panel the stiffness
goes up to 200% or more. And the strength goes up
something like three times over just the ply.

OK 1/4" ply weights in at 10.75 oz. per sq.ft. The
above fiberglass layup would add 5 oz. per sq.ft. to
the panel, that is glassing both sides. So you have a
hull panel that is 16 oz. per sq.ft. To get plywood to
be about the same you need to step up to 1/2", and it
is 21.5 oz. per sq.ft.

Now to top it all off for most of the small wood boats
that are made 1/4" ply has the strength needed for the
hull! What is MISSING is the stiffness in the panel
not the strength. You need the stiffness to keep the
panel from buckling. So what do they do to stop this
they go to thicker hull plating or closer spaced
frames.

Yes it will add to the cost to build along with added
time. But when you look over the life of the hull it
is less costly for a boat you intend to keep a long
time. The hull will not rot seeing how the whole thing
is sealed in epoxy. Unless you make a way for the
water to get into the wood.

You have to remember when it comes to a planing hull
the lighter you are the faster you are going to be for
a given HP. This is also true for sailboats as well.

Kenneth you don't see many fast wood airplanes anymore
being built. They are mostly molded glass. If wood was
so good then Boeing would still be useing it to build
aircraft.

With homebuilt aircraft builders wood is still used a
lot. I also like working with wood as well. So I'm not
knocking wood but there are ways to make it a better
hull platting and to keep it lighter.

Blessings Krissie


--- Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:

> Wood is actually lighter than glass and epoxy, and
> it costs a lot less too, so
> I'm not convinced that your "lighter and stronger"
> conclusion is correct.
>
> I've been considering the use of thinner than spec'd
> plywood on Tolman Skiffs
> but my numbers tell me they will weigh more than the
> thicker spec'd plywood
> -- and they will certainly cost more to build
> because glass/epoxy costs a lot
> more than plywood.
>
> The boats *might* be stronger with more glass/epoxy
> and less wood -- but I
> have my doubts about this as well -- since plywood
> becomes exponentially
> stronger the thicker it gets. I think it depends
> upon the type of glass you
> use, and whether or not you use it properly to
> achieve the added strength
> you're after.
>
> Bottom line (for me anyways) is that I think it
> makes sense to use as thick a
> plywood as you need for strength and stiffness, then
> use epoxy/glass on the
> outer hull wear points for toughness and abrasion
> resistance.
>
> And if you feel like you have to, go ahead and
> glass/epoxy the outer hull with
> light cloth so the paint sticks better and/or for
> checking prevention. But
> if you do this, be prepared for higher costs, and
> more work, and a heavier
> boat when you're finished -- because this is likely
> what you'll end up with.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kenneth Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>




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> I know it's more work but it also would be lighter and
> stronger. But at this point it's just an idea.


Wood is actually lighter than glass and epoxy, and it costs a lot less too, so
I'm not convinced that your "lighter and stronger" conclusion is correct.

I've been considering the use of thinner than spec'd plywood on Tolman Skiffs
but my numbers tell me they will weigh more than the thicker spec'd plywood
-- and they will certainly cost more to build because glass/epoxy costs a lot
more than plywood.

The boats *might* be stronger with more glass/epoxy and less wood -- but I
have my doubts about this as well -- since plywood becomes exponentially
stronger the thicker it gets. I think it depends upon the type of glass you
use, and whether or not you use it properly to achieve the added strength
you're after.

Bottom line (for me anyways) is that I think it makes sense to use as thick a
plywood as you need for strength and stiffness, then use epoxy/glass on the
outer hull wear points for toughness and abrasion resistance.

And if you feel like you have to, go ahead and glass/epoxy the outer hull with
light cloth so the paint sticks better and/or for checking prevention. But
if you do this, be prepared for higher costs, and more work, and a heavier
boat when you're finished -- because this is likely what you'll end up with.

Sincerely,
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com



On Wednesday 08 November 2006 12:32, Kristine Bennett wrote:
> OK I know we have a few CAD users on here. And some
> guys that know their way around Freeship. How nice
> would I have to talk to one of you to get the expanded
> panel layout? For the InletRunner?
>
> What is going around in my head is use 1/4 inch ply or
> maybe 5/16 mdo and add a layer of 12oz db and Epoxy to
> the inside before stiching and then to the outside
> after it's stiched up. And the seams are taped.
>
> I know it's more work but it also would be lighter and
> stronger. But at this point it's just an idea.
>
> Blessings to all
> Kristine
>
> --- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > > > > Inlet Runner,
> >
> > Inlet runner would make a spectacular Westcoast
> > sport salmon fishing
> > platform. It is pretty big (8'6"wide) for a trailer,
> > but would fit.
> > Also, I predict it could be built quickly and
> > cheaply using 1/2" MDO
> > plywood, with epoxy/fiberglass taped seams. You
> > could use Freeship to
> > get the expanded panel layout.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
Looking at the Freeship generated dwgs of the hull, it seems identical
to FMS. Simply different superstructure and a watertight deck?

Don Schultz

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> Inlet Runner, technically a 'concept', looks finished enough to me to
> be built, is different than Fast Motor Sailer because it has full
deck
> with a walk around cabin, making it the better choice if what you
want
> is a ocean fishing boat.
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> OK I know we have a few CAD users on here. And some
> guys that know their way around Freeship. How nice
> would I have to talk to one of you to get the expanded
> panel layout? For the InletRunner?
>
> What is going around in my head is use 1/4 inch ply or
> maybe 5/16 mdo and add a layer of 12oz db and Epoxy to
> the inside before stiching and then to the outside
> after it's stiched up. And the seams are taped.
>
> I know it's more work but it also would be lighter and
> stronger. But at this point it's just an idea.
>
> Blessings to all
> Kristine
>
Don't think you can get 5/16 MDO - let me know if you can. But you can
get 3/8". Then just glass the panels on the outside before assembly,
leave enough space around the edges for taping it together and there
you are.

But with that big a motor you might want to use 1/2" to make certain
it doesn't flex. Also you need to know if there are any other inner
structural framing, gussets, web-frames etc., required. That is where
you need the plans. But then again there aren't any are there?

So I guess you won't need me to crew eh?

Nels
OK I know we have a few CAD users on here. And some
guys that know their way around Freeship. How nice
would I have to talk to one of you to get the expanded
panel layout? For the InletRunner?

What is going around in my head is use 1/4 inch ply or
maybe 5/16 mdo and add a layer of 12oz db and Epoxy to
the inside before stiching and then to the outside
after it's stiched up. And the seams are taped.

I know it's more work but it also would be lighter and
stronger. But at this point it's just an idea.

Blessings to all
Kristine

--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

> > > > Inlet Runner,
>
> Inlet runner would make a spectacular Westcoast
> sport salmon fishing
> platform. It is pretty big (8'6"wide) for a trailer,
> but would fit.
> Also, I predict it could be built quickly and
> cheaply using 1/2" MDO
> plywood, with epoxy/fiberglass taped seams. You
> could use Freeship to
> get the expanded panel layout.
>





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That InletRunner looks good and yes I too think it
would make a great Puget Sound boat! For my use about
16 to 18 feet would make it about right for my needs.

My sweetie just looked over my shoulder at it and did
the "Ohhhh that's nice looking." as well. SHe grew up
not far from Portland Or. and fished the rivers around
the area. So she knows what a good rough water boat
hull looks like too!

Blessings all
Krissie



> > > > Inlet Runner,
>
> Inlet runner would make a spectacular Westcoast
> sport salmon fishing
> platform. It is pretty big (8'6"wide) for a trailer,
> but would fit.
> Also, I predict it could be built quickly and
> cheaply using 1/2" MDO
> plywood, with epoxy/fiberglass taped seams. You
> could use Freeship to
> get the expanded panel layout.
>





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> > > Inlet Runner,

Inlet runner would make a spectacular Westcoast sport salmon fishing
platform. It is pretty big (8'6"wide) for a trailer, but would fit.
Also, I predict it could be built quickly and cheaply using 1/2" MDO
plywood, with epoxy/fiberglass taped seams. You could use Freeship to
get the expanded panel layout.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > Inlet Runner,
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/InletRunner/InletRunnerLines.jpg
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/InletRunner/InletRunner.fbm
>
Thanks Bruce
Wow that is a nice looking hull. Looking at the mid-section it should
fit on a trailer no problem. Wonder what the empty weight would be?
Less than a ton?

You are the magic man!

Nels
Inlet Runner, technically a 'concept', looks finished enough to me to
be built, is different than Fast Motor Sailer because it has full deck
with a walk around cabin, making it the better choice if what you want
is a ocean fishing boat.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
>
> I forgot to mention that the drawing was provided by Peter Vanderwaart.
> I subsequently contacted PCB and he replied that it was a concept only
> and suggested Fast Motor Sailor as alternative. I like the orriginal
FMS
> better. Clyde

Thanks Ckyde (and Peter) It got diverted to junk mail and stripped of
attachments but I recovered it!

I see it draws about 1 foot with the motor up and it looks like it
calls for a 70 hp motor.

Looking for a fishing boat for a friend who lives on Kootenay Lake
B.C. infamous for it's winds at times and lack of inlets actually:-)

Famous for it's larger trout.

http://www.kootenaylake.bc.ca/RouteMap.shtml

Nels
I forgot to mention that the drawing was provided by Peter Vanderwaart.
I subsequently contacted PCB and he replied that it was a concept only
and suggested Fast Motor Sailor as alternative. I like the orriginal FMS
better. Clyde


Clyde Wisner wrote:

> You posted it on 10/30/05 and I just tried to forward it to you. Clyde
>
> Nels wrote:
>
> > Any info on the net re: Inlet Runner? Paricularly engine size
> > suggested and draft.
> >
> > I recall the cartoon showed a guy sitting on the porta potti below
> > decks but cannot locate that image:-)
> >
> > Nels
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You posted it on 10/30/05 and I just tried to forward it to you. Clyde

Nels wrote:

> Any info on the net re: Inlet Runner? Paricularly engine size
> suggested and draft.
>
> I recall the cartoon showed a guy sitting on the porta potti below
> decks but cannot locate that image:-)
>
> Nels
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Any info on the net re: Inlet Runner? Paricularly engine size
suggested and draft.

I recall the cartoon showed a guy sitting on the porta potti below
decks but cannot locate that image:-)

Nels