Re: Design/Engineering Software Open Source For A Mac Or PC
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
cartoons and reading some stuff on the Internet:-)
Nels
> None of these are especially relevant to very small boats, soWhich many of us feel we can improve on - after looking at some
> designers like PCB develop their own method using trial, error, and
> intuition over a long career.
cartoons and reading some stuff on the Internet:-)
Nels
> However I am curious as to how these programs address scantlings asThey don't, with exceptions.
> just one example?
I'm not aware of any program used to draw hull lines and make the
hydrostatic computations that deals with scantlings. There are some
special purpose programs that do, for example, I think Greg Carlson
has one to help with mast design.
For the most part, structures are developed using "scantling rules" of
the "if hull weight is X, planking should be Y" variety. Probably the
best known are the Herreshoff Rule, Dave Gerr's "Elements of Boat
Stength" and the ABYS rules for fiberglass yachts.
None of these are especially relelvant to very small boats, so
designers like PCB develop their own method using trial, error, and
intuition over a long career. It's possible to make direct engineering
calculations for most parts of a boat assuming static forces, but the
extra allowance for dynamic and schock loads is beyond simple
calculation.
Peter
> However I am curious as to how these programs address scantlings asFor any program to address scantlings, you would need to give it your
> just one example?
assumption as to the forces the hull must endure.
An eggshell a millimeter thick resists static water pressure. The
real failure point determining scantings is the dynamic forces, and
fundamentally that is a guess. Hitting the dock, floating debris, or
getting racked through a large wave.
For that reason, most designers, including Bolger use experience, and
'rule of thumb' to establish the scantlings.
I should not be responding to this thread at all as boat design is a
total mystery to me.
However I am curious as to how these programs address scantlings as
just one example?
Perhaps now that PCB&F are finished their lengthy "secret mission"
they may be interested in our interest in some of their previously
undeveloped designs?
Any idea what the cost would be to finalize a design such as a shorter
Inlet Runner as an example? (Or Bonefish or a Long Micro Nav.)
I can see a niche for a smaller motor cruiser as Kristine mentions
given the present reality of the cost of higher powered motors and gas
prices. Not to mention materials.
Let's face it - most of us only have time and realistic resources for
weekend jaunts or day excursions with a smaller easily trailerable
boat design, sleeping maybe two people snuggly for a few nights at
most. Taking maybe two couples on day trips.
How many people are realistically going to have the time and
commitment for an Anenome or Windermere?
Perhaps several interested parties could combine to finalize some
smaller designs and also utilize the talents of our heroes?
Sorry but it seems to me this thread is only of interest to software
developers and not Bolgeristas.
Nels
total mystery to me.
However I am curious as to how these programs address scantlings as
just one example?
Perhaps now that PCB&F are finished their lengthy "secret mission"
they may be interested in our interest in some of their previously
undeveloped designs?
Any idea what the cost would be to finalize a design such as a shorter
Inlet Runner as an example? (Or Bonefish or a Long Micro Nav.)
I can see a niche for a smaller motor cruiser as Kristine mentions
given the present reality of the cost of higher powered motors and gas
prices. Not to mention materials.
Let's face it - most of us only have time and realistic resources for
weekend jaunts or day excursions with a smaller easily trailerable
boat design, sleeping maybe two people snuggly for a few nights at
most. Taking maybe two couples on day trips.
How many people are realistically going to have the time and
commitment for an Anenome or Windermere?
Perhaps several interested parties could combine to finalize some
smaller designs and also utilize the talents of our heroes?
Sorry but it seems to me this thread is only of interest to software
developers and not Bolgeristas.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "JJ Johnson" <jjoftheusa@...> wrote:
>
> Greg Carlson
>
> We have been discusing open source but have not been useing the term
> correctly. The following links are to The Free Software Foundaton,
> aka FSF. These are no means the only licenses or definitions and if
> you want to place HULLs into the public domain I suggest that you
> study the pros and cons of each license type, these are just the
> opening gambits in a very complex subject.
>
> CopyLeft
>http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/
>
> General Public License
>http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt
>
> Lesser General Public License
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License
>
> The main difference between the GPL and the LGPL is that the latter
> can be linked to (in the case of a library, 'used by') a non-(L)GPLed
> program, which may be free software or proprietary software [1]. This
> non-(L)GPLed program can then be distributed under any chosen terms,
> provided the terms allow "modification for the customer's own use and
> reverse engineering for debugging such modifications."
>
> JJ
>
Greg Carlson
We have been discusing open source but have not been useing the term
correctly. The following links are to The Free Software Foundaton,
aka FSF. These are no means the only licenses or definitions and if
you want to place HULLs into the public domain I suggest that you
study the pros and cons of each license type, these are just the
opening gambits in a very complex subject.
CopyLeft
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/
General Public License
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt
Lesser General Public License
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License
The main difference between the GPL and the LGPL is that the latter
can be linked to (in the case of a library, 'used by') a non-(L)GPLed
program, which may be free software or proprietary software [1]. This
non-(L)GPLed program can then be distributed under any chosen terms,
provided the terms allow "modification for the customer's own use and
reverse engineering for debugging such modifications."
JJ
We have been discusing open source but have not been useing the term
correctly. The following links are to The Free Software Foundaton,
aka FSF. These are no means the only licenses or definitions and if
you want to place HULLs into the public domain I suggest that you
study the pros and cons of each license type, these are just the
opening gambits in a very complex subject.
CopyLeft
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/
General Public License
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt
Lesser General Public License
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License
The main difference between the GPL and the LGPL is that the latter
can be linked to (in the case of a library, 'used by') a non-(L)GPLed
program, which may be free software or proprietary software [1]. This
non-(L)GPLed program can then be distributed under any chosen terms,
provided the terms allow "modification for the customer's own use and
reverse engineering for debugging such modifications."
JJ
Gregg,
I am no specialist in Free and Open Source Licensing.
But there are licenses (I think the GPL e.g.) that specify that all
derivative work has to be released under the same license again.
This prevents that the program ever gets "closed/non-free" again.
There are other licenses (the LGPL?) that allow derivative work to get
closed. The LGPL e.g. one is more intended for libraries etc.
I am not sure, but I guess you can find some advice on sourceforge.
Cheers,
Stefan
--- "ghartc" <gregg.carlson@...> wrote:
I am no specialist in Free and Open Source Licensing.
But there are licenses (I think the GPL e.g.) that specify that all
derivative work has to be released under the same license again.
This prevents that the program ever gets "closed/non-free" again.
There are other licenses (the LGPL?) that allow derivative work to get
closed. The LGPL e.g. one is more intended for libraries etc.
I am not sure, but I guess you can find some advice on sourceforge.
Cheers,
Stefan
--- "ghartc" <gregg.carlson@...> wrote:
> I've been thinking of either open
> sourcing it or getting a few people together to update it.
>
> A few have wanted the sourcecode to
> develop private or commercial projects, which I declined.
> I don't know how open source works, but perhaps it prevents
> that. It seems like a little team of volunteers could do
> the same.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ghartc" <gregg.carlson@...> wrote:
Greg Carlson
My personal vote is for open sourceing HULLS. You might start a chain
reaction like happened with Linux. Yes there are commercial Linux
packages out there, but the commercial portion is only the
enhancements and add-ons. The real developement has been in the open
source world. Litterly thousands of Linux gurus have taken part in
making Linux what it is today. If interested try downloading
PCLinuxOS or one of its CD Booting cousins, most are open-sourced and
free.
I know this sounds like a push for Linux but really it is just an
example of what could happen with your HULLs program if it were open-
sourced and the gurus around the world took an interest. And yes, I
would like to see your source myself.
JJ Johnson, retired
jj@...
ps; remove the X
>
> Waldo,
>
> My hulls program flat panels 3d hulls and does some basic
> hydrostatics. It's a fairly basic program, but hasn't been
> updated in a long time. I've been thinking of either open
> sourcing it or getting a few people together to update it.
> Might be a candidate for CFD - I've had some classes on the
> subject, but I've slept since then.
>
> One problem; the program's written in VB3, and I'd like to
> see it moved to VB6. A few have wanted the sourcecode to
> develop private or commercial projects, which I declined.
> I don't know how open source works, but perhaps it prevents
> that. It seems like a little team of volunteers could do
> the same.
>
> Gregg Carlson
Well, maybe because I'm getting old. In the 1980s I put up with the old timers who said "We tried that ten years ago and proved it wouldn't work." Now it's my turn.
Or maybe it's because I spent thirty five years designing/building/debugging computer systems including seven years in Software Quality Assurance. As part of the latter effort, I discovered how hard it is to get code that really does what it says in the marketing blurb. Is your VBA interpreter/compiler certified? Is your operating system? Does your processor really generate the correct product of two numbers, or is it one of Intel's unfortunate Pentiums?
You can also look at the tail of your quoted message below and see a lot of stuff that really wasn't supposed to show up on my screen, yet Microsoft is the world leader in software development if one goes by the amount spent by their customers.
I gave one example where computer modeling really didn't work out too well. Many more are available.
The Lloyd's software might be fine, but you're trusting the expertise (politics) of a bunch of insurance agents and project managers to select and certify the software you're going to bet your clients' lives on. (One of my nephews lived well in Russia for a while managing a bunch of programmers. He could just barely turn on a computer. His major was journalism. His bosses were primarily concerned with costs and schedules.)
How come the Japanese are spending so many millions on hardware simulation of structures subject to earthquakes? Why don't they just use your modeling program?
I was really picking on your "variety of wave conditions." For static loads, the analysis is probably adequate, especially when you crank in a factor of four or five for safety margin. Dynamic modeling is a long way from adequate in my opinion.
The first step in an adequate software project is to precisely specify, in quantitative terms, the desired results and then, have the resulting code tested by an independent group against that specification. It hardly ever happens.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Or maybe it's because I spent thirty five years designing/building/debugging computer systems including seven years in Software Quality Assurance. As part of the latter effort, I discovered how hard it is to get code that really does what it says in the marketing blurb. Is your VBA interpreter/compiler certified? Is your operating system? Does your processor really generate the correct product of two numbers, or is it one of Intel's unfortunate Pentiums?
You can also look at the tail of your quoted message below and see a lot of stuff that really wasn't supposed to show up on my screen, yet Microsoft is the world leader in software development if one goes by the amount spent by their customers.
I gave one example where computer modeling really didn't work out too well. Many more are available.
The Lloyd's software might be fine, but you're trusting the expertise (politics) of a bunch of insurance agents and project managers to select and certify the software you're going to bet your clients' lives on. (One of my nephews lived well in Russia for a while managing a bunch of programmers. He could just barely turn on a computer. His major was journalism. His bosses were primarily concerned with costs and schedules.)
How come the Japanese are spending so many millions on hardware simulation of structures subject to earthquakes? Why don't they just use your modeling program?
I was really picking on your "variety of wave conditions." For static loads, the analysis is probably adequate, especially when you crank in a factor of four or five for safety margin. Dynamic modeling is a long way from adequate in my opinion.
The first step in an adequate software project is to precisely specify, in quantitative terms, the desired results and then, have the resulting code tested by an independent group against that specification. It hardly ever happens.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Waldo F. Odonahue
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Design/Engineering Software Open Source For A Mac Or PC
>Sounds like a worthy dream. The CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) >programs I've heard of run on super computers and still take calendar time to >complete. (" ... test in variety of wave conditions") You also might want to >check out the latest in Chaos
Not sure why you would think boat hull engineering software a dream. I am familiar with all kinds of high-rise building structural engineering software - that runs on 10 year old desktop computers. As well there are numerous aeronautical engineering software packages around running on standard desktop computers. Alas there is also hull engineering software. For example, "BOAT3D" which runs on a DOs computer (yet):
"For a given boat design, BOAT3D estimates the forces on a hard-chine planing boat using an added-mass analytical approach and solves for the predicted trajectory of motion of the boat. The boat moves with 3 degrees of freedom, lunge, heave, and pitch. BOAT3D lets you estimate the speed you will obtain from a particular design for a given engine/propeller thrust. It also lets you estimate the accelerations imposed on the boat occupants at a particular speed in a particular sea condition, and the amplitude of the heaving and pitching response to the sea. BOAT3D has been evaluated in tests discussed in the Development paragraph below."
Even Lloyds puts out boat engineering software:
"There are many classification "rules" which can be used for powerboats. In our case, since we're building in aluminum motor yacht, the best rule is what is known as the Lloyds Special Service Classification or SSC as it is commonly called. Lloyds has available a wonderful engineering software package which allows you to play "what if" games with framing, plating thickness, floors, deck, and other structural members. The software takes into account hull shape, and allows you to change values for wave size, boat speed, and impact (G) loadings. Or, you can let the software input these values."
But I am looking for OpenSource software. And I would imagine alot of people here who would like to make changes to Bolger's designs - but are not looking for nightmares - but for safe ways of lengthening Bolger's design (for example).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Waldo,
My hulls program flat panels 3d hulls and does some basic
hydrostatics. It's a fairly basic program, but hasn't been
updated in a long time. I've been thinking of either open
sourcing it or getting a few people together to update it.
Might be a candidate for CFD - I've had some classes on the
subject, but I've slept since then.
One problem; the program's written in VB3, and I'd like to
see it moved to VB6. A few have wanted the sourcecode to
develop private or commercial projects, which I declined.
I don't know how open source works, but perhaps it prevents
that. It seems like a little team of volunteers could do
the same.
Gregg Carlson
My hulls program flat panels 3d hulls and does some basic
hydrostatics. It's a fairly basic program, but hasn't been
updated in a long time. I've been thinking of either open
sourcing it or getting a few people together to update it.
Might be a candidate for CFD - I've had some classes on the
subject, but I've slept since then.
One problem; the program's written in VB3, and I'd like to
see it moved to VB6. A few have wanted the sourcecode to
develop private or commercial projects, which I declined.
I don't know how open source works, but perhaps it prevents
that. It seems like a little team of volunteers could do
the same.
Gregg Carlson
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks
>
> I asked this before;but, likely didn't make it clear enough about
what I am looking for - which is OpenSource software to
design/engineer hulls. Would prefer Mac OSx software; but, if PC
and/or Linux available - that's OK.
>
> Specifically a) be able to draw a specific hull shape/size and then
b) "test" the design in a variety of wave conditions.
>
> Or on the other hand is there software which uses a Wizard which
enable input of criteria and then the software "spits" out the hull
shape (and patterns for plywood cutting assembly).
>
> I am guessing here; but so much testing has been done by a variety
of universities on hull design over the last 60 years - or does the
military control the info?
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sounds like a worthy dream. The CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) programs I've heard of run on super computers and still take calendar time to complete. (" ... test in variety of wave conditions") You also might want to check out the latest in Chaos
Not sure why you would think boat hull engineering software a dream. I am familiar with all kinds of high-rise building structural engineering software - that runs on 10 year old desktop computers. As well there are numerous aeronautical engineering software packages around running on standard desktop computers. Alas there is also hull engineering software. For example, "BOAT3D" which runs on a DOs computer (yet):
"For a given boat design, BOAT3D estimates the forces on a hard-chine planing boat using an added-mass analytical approach and solves for the predicted trajectory of motion of the boat. The boat moves with 3 degrees of freedom, lunge, heave, and pitch. BOAT3D lets you estimate the speed you will obtain from a particular design for a given engine/propeller thrust. It also lets you estimate the accelerations imposed on the boat occupants at a particular speed in a particular sea condition, and the amplitude of the heaving and pitching response to the sea. BOAT3D has been evaluated in tests discussed in the Development paragraph below."
Even Lloyds puts out boat engineering software:
"There are many classification "rules" which can be used for powerboats. In our case, since we're building in aluminum motor yacht, the best rule is what is known as the Lloyds Special Service Classification or SSC as it is commonly called. Lloyds has available a wonderful engineering software package which allows you to play "what if" games with framing, plating thickness, floors, deck, and other structural members. The software takes into account hull shape, and allows you to change values for wave size, boat speed, and impact (G) loadings. Or, you can let the software input these values."
But I am looking for OpenSource software. And I would imagine alot of people here who would like to make changes to Bolger's designs - but are not looking for nightmares - but for safe ways of lengthening Bolger's design (for example).
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Not sure why you would think boat hull engineering software a dream. I am familiar with all kinds of high-rise building structural engineering software - that runs on 10 year old desktop computers. As well there are numerous aeronautical engineering software packages around running on standard desktop computers. Alas there is also hull engineering software. For example, "BOAT3D" which runs on a DOs computer (yet):
"For a given boat design, BOAT3D estimates the forces on a hard-chine planing boat using an added-mass analytical approach and solves for the predicted trajectory of motion of the boat. The boat moves with 3 degrees of freedom, lunge, heave, and pitch. BOAT3D lets you estimate the speed you will obtain from a particular design for a given engine/propeller thrust. It also lets you estimate the accelerations imposed on the boat occupants at a particular speed in a particular sea condition, and the amplitude of the heaving and pitching response to the sea. BOAT3D has been evaluated in tests discussed in the Development paragraph below."
Even Lloyds puts out boat engineering software:
"There are many classification "rules" which can be used for powerboats. In our case, since we're building in aluminum motor yacht, the best rule is what is known as the Lloyds Special Service Classification or SSC as it is commonly called. Lloyds has available a wonderful engineering software package which allows you to play "what if" games with framing, plating thickness, floors, deck, and other structural members. The software takes into account hull shape, and allows you to change values for wave size, boat speed, and impact (G) loadings. Or, you can let the software input these values."
But I am looking for OpenSource software. And I would imagine alot of people here who would like to make changes to Bolger's designs - but are not looking for nightmares - but for safe ways of lengthening Bolger's design (for example).
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Sounds like a worthy dream. The CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) programs I've heard of run on super computers and still take calendar time to complete. (" ... test in variety of wave conditions") You also might want to check out the latest in Chaos theory if you're going to account for turbulence (indeterminate but bounded and highly sensitive to initial conditions).
I'd suggest you think in terms of highly parallel processors, not a PC, and yes, usually it's only the taxpayers that can afford that sort of hardware and software. Or you could do like John Roncz did when designing airfoils for Burt Rutan. You take a looong table (think church supper) and fill it with motherboards lashed together.
We (GE Range Department with Research Lab) tried to set up a finite element analysis of a roast of beef cooking and came up with the fact that there weren't enough computers in the world to run the program, but that was 1978. (meat, fat, skin, bone, marrow, water, ... )
Meanwhile, the Ford truck plant down the road used the finite element analysis technique for a new line of trucks. When they were put on the road, the engines fell out, literally. Turns out the software only analyzed a few specific frequencies (engine speeds, road roughness). The real world sweeps the spectrum and finds the resonant points where the structure will fail. We got to interview the job hunters that had sold Ford's management on the project.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
I'd suggest you think in terms of highly parallel processors, not a PC, and yes, usually it's only the taxpayers that can afford that sort of hardware and software. Or you could do like John Roncz did when designing airfoils for Burt Rutan. You take a looong table (think church supper) and fill it with motherboards lashed together.
We (GE Range Department with Research Lab) tried to set up a finite element analysis of a roast of beef cooking and came up with the fact that there weren't enough computers in the world to run the program, but that was 1978. (meat, fat, skin, bone, marrow, water, ... )
Meanwhile, the Ford truck plant down the road used the finite element analysis technique for a new line of trucks. When they were put on the road, the engines fell out, literally. Turns out the software only analyzed a few specific frequencies (engine speeds, road roughness). The real world sweeps the spectrum and finds the resonant points where the structure will fail. We got to interview the job hunters that had sold Ford's management on the project.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Waldo F. Odonahue
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:07 PM
Subject: [bolger] Design/Engineering Software Open Source For A Mac Or PC
Hi Folks
I asked this before;but, likely didn't make it clear enough about what I am looking for - which is OpenSource software to design/engineer hulls. Would prefer Mac OSx software; but, if PC and/or Linux available - that's OK.
Specifically a) be able to draw a specific hull shape/size and then b) "test" the design in a variety of wave conditions.
Or on the other hand is there software which uses a Wizard which enable input of criteria and then the software "spits" out the hull shape (and patterns for plywood cutting assembly).
I am guessing here; but so much testing has been done by a variety of universities on hull design over the last 60 years - or does the military control the info?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your question might be more 'on topic' at the boatdesign Yahoo Group.
This group is more familiar with the designs of the boat designer Phil
Bolger.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/
I presume you already know about the sourceforce application Freeship.
Google "sourceforge Freeship" to learn more.
This group is more familiar with the designs of the boat designer Phil
Bolger.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/
I presume you already know about the sourceforce application Freeship.
Google "sourceforge Freeship" to learn more.
Hi Folks
I asked this before;but, likely didn't make it clear enough about what I am looking for - which is OpenSource software to design/engineer hulls. Would prefer Mac OSx software; but, if PC and/or Linux available - that's OK.
Specifically a) be able to draw a specific hull shape/size and then b) "test" the design in a variety of wave conditions.
Or on the other hand is there software which uses a Wizard which enable input of criteria and then the software "spits" out the hull shape (and patterns for plywood cutting assembly).
I am guessing here; but so much testing has been done by a variety of universities on hull design over the last 60 years - or does the military control the info?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I asked this before;but, likely didn't make it clear enough about what I am looking for - which is OpenSource software to design/engineer hulls. Would prefer Mac OSx software; but, if PC and/or Linux available - that's OK.
Specifically a) be able to draw a specific hull shape/size and then b) "test" the design in a variety of wave conditions.
Or on the other hand is there software which uses a Wizard which enable input of criteria and then the software "spits" out the hull shape (and patterns for plywood cutting assembly).
I am guessing here; but so much testing has been done by a variety of universities on hull design over the last 60 years - or does the military control the info?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]