Re: Long Micro keel
I'm not sure what it is about the lead ballast that causes good folk
to undertake risky adventures.From the Long MICRO down to the
OLDSHOE,the bare hulls are just light enough to roll/tip with a
minimum of effort and danger.Adding the ballast however,while the
hull is inverted, stikes me as....hmmm....let's call it "needlessly
crazy",in the mildest sense of that word.
Being a proud,lazy, S.O.B myself, I'm all in favour of doing as much
work as
possible on the bottom while it is upside down....even anti-fouling
for that matter :-) Gravity is our friend! But visions of developing
necessary and safe hoisting arrangements for the 200 to 500 lbs of
lead ballast casting(depending on model) to be raised up onto the
inverted hull, combined with the eventual roll-right-side-up day
party
were what convinced me to chicken out and do it another way.
Well, not just that.....but also visions of that big hunk-a-hunk-
beautiful lead dropping too swiftly on my fingers,toes,arms,legs and
other appendages that REALLY gave me nightmares!
So I'm a whimp ! :-)
Here is how I did the keel for a MICRO.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro/index.htm
Note the boxes used to hold the hull up.These can be easily built
to whatever height to best accommadate aging backs and skinny fanny
perpendiculars :-)
The neat thing about these boxes is the top angled to
match the bottom rocker of your hull.Slide the boxes toward midships
and the hull goes up.Slide them apart and the hull goes down. I'm
not talking a couple of feet here but rather just enough to perhaps
position the lead ballast underneath the hull and gently(safely)
lower the hull onto it. The other handy feature with these boxes is
that any one of them can be entirely removed without the boat
tumbling over. But please,NEVER try to remove more then just the one
box...:-)
Since so many of us work alone and boatbuilding is a hobby for us,
it pays to think "safety" all the time. Rushing things or doing
risky things only increases the chances of being hurt,perhaps
seriously, and this would certainly put a damper on our private
little pleasures afforded by such a wholesome hobby.
Have fun building!
Sincerely,
Peter"the whimpiest" Lenihan,living through some record breaking
number of rain days up here along the shores of the mighty high
St.Lawrence..............
to undertake risky adventures.From the Long MICRO down to the
OLDSHOE,the bare hulls are just light enough to roll/tip with a
minimum of effort and danger.Adding the ballast however,while the
hull is inverted, stikes me as....hmmm....let's call it "needlessly
crazy",in the mildest sense of that word.
Being a proud,lazy, S.O.B myself, I'm all in favour of doing as much
work as
possible on the bottom while it is upside down....even anti-fouling
for that matter :-) Gravity is our friend! But visions of developing
necessary and safe hoisting arrangements for the 200 to 500 lbs of
lead ballast casting(depending on model) to be raised up onto the
inverted hull, combined with the eventual roll-right-side-up day
party
were what convinced me to chicken out and do it another way.
Well, not just that.....but also visions of that big hunk-a-hunk-
beautiful lead dropping too swiftly on my fingers,toes,arms,legs and
other appendages that REALLY gave me nightmares!
So I'm a whimp ! :-)
Here is how I did the keel for a MICRO.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro/index.htm
Note the boxes used to hold the hull up.These can be easily built
to whatever height to best accommadate aging backs and skinny fanny
perpendiculars :-)
The neat thing about these boxes is the top angled to
match the bottom rocker of your hull.Slide the boxes toward midships
and the hull goes up.Slide them apart and the hull goes down. I'm
not talking a couple of feet here but rather just enough to perhaps
position the lead ballast underneath the hull and gently(safely)
lower the hull onto it. The other handy feature with these boxes is
that any one of them can be entirely removed without the boat
tumbling over. But please,NEVER try to remove more then just the one
box...:-)
Since so many of us work alone and boatbuilding is a hobby for us,
it pays to think "safety" all the time. Rushing things or doing
risky things only increases the chances of being hurt,perhaps
seriously, and this would certainly put a damper on our private
little pleasures afforded by such a wholesome hobby.
Have fun building!
Sincerely,
Peter"the whimpiest" Lenihan,living through some record breaking
number of rain days up here along the shores of the mighty high
St.Lawrence..............
Being inherently lazy, I finished the bottom of our Micro [including
painting, as well as fibreglassing] while the hull was inverted. The '2 by'
keel strip was glued, screwed and bolted in place while gravity was still
helping me bend it to the shape of the hull bottom. Most of the keel fit and
pattern work was done at that point too, whileit was easy to see and reach.
Rolling the unfinished box of the hull was a triviality. Once the hull was
on a simple cradle, the lead was dollied into place on a basic jig on
castors. I'd made the cradle with sides attached by bolts, so one side could
be removed to allow the lead to be rolled into place, and jacked up into
final alignment. Glassing the underside of the keel was the only bit of the
whole task which I now remember as being an irritation, although that had
much to do with my decision to fit an oak shoe and a kevlar 'crashmat'.
Work and material cost on the cradle were minimal, and were needed in any
case. Building rolling support braces would be an additional one-time cost.
I too had read of people turning the boat after lowering the lead into place
[and folk who slid the lead in with the boat on its side]. If that off
centre weighted lump were to get out of control, then the memory would stick
with you for a long time :)
One more thought, in case. While I was lowering the lead casting from the
back of the truck to the floor I had it suspended with a come-along winch
and a backup rope and tackle. The ratchet on the come-along slipped several
teeth, the rope bounced and slipped, and the 400lb lump of lead fell to the
concrete a few inches below. Had there been a boat hull under that hammer,
I'm not sure that it would have survived unscathed. [The lead, to my
astonishment, was not distorted].
And then there's the epoxy in hair scenario....
Having run out of stainless screws [I know, Prior Planning Prevents...] I
drove an hour to the next town for some. Walking into the hardware store, I
ran a hand through my hair where I encountered a big glob of the miracle
goo.
Not looking forward to the ensuing bald patch I ran [didn't walk] across the
road to a sandwich store and asked if they used vinegar in their salad
dressings. Obtaining an answer in the affirmative, I begged a cup of their
red wine vinegar, thanked them profusely, and poured it over my head. I'd
have paid good money just for the expressions on their faces as I walked
out, massaging it in. Vinegar works.
cheers
Derek
painting, as well as fibreglassing] while the hull was inverted. The '2 by'
keel strip was glued, screwed and bolted in place while gravity was still
helping me bend it to the shape of the hull bottom. Most of the keel fit and
pattern work was done at that point too, whileit was easy to see and reach.
Rolling the unfinished box of the hull was a triviality. Once the hull was
on a simple cradle, the lead was dollied into place on a basic jig on
castors. I'd made the cradle with sides attached by bolts, so one side could
be removed to allow the lead to be rolled into place, and jacked up into
final alignment. Glassing the underside of the keel was the only bit of the
whole task which I now remember as being an irritation, although that had
much to do with my decision to fit an oak shoe and a kevlar 'crashmat'.
Work and material cost on the cradle were minimal, and were needed in any
case. Building rolling support braces would be an additional one-time cost.
I too had read of people turning the boat after lowering the lead into place
[and folk who slid the lead in with the boat on its side]. If that off
centre weighted lump were to get out of control, then the memory would stick
with you for a long time :)
One more thought, in case. While I was lowering the lead casting from the
back of the truck to the floor I had it suspended with a come-along winch
and a backup rope and tackle. The ratchet on the come-along slipped several
teeth, the rope bounced and slipped, and the 400lb lump of lead fell to the
concrete a few inches below. Had there been a boat hull under that hammer,
I'm not sure that it would have survived unscathed. [The lead, to my
astonishment, was not distorted].
And then there's the epoxy in hair scenario....
Having run out of stainless screws [I know, Prior Planning Prevents...] I
drove an hour to the next town for some. Walking into the hardware store, I
ran a hand through my hair where I encountered a big glob of the miracle
goo.
Not looking forward to the ensuing bald patch I ran [didn't walk] across the
road to a sandwich store and asked if they used vinegar in their salad
dressings. Obtaining an answer in the affirmative, I begged a cup of their
red wine vinegar, thanked them profusely, and poured it over my head. I'd
have paid good money just for the expressions on their faces as I walked
out, massaging it in. Vinegar works.
cheers
Derek
Roger,
http://www.hotlinecy.com/images/hat.pdf
It says it is a Pressman's Hat. Ain't Google Great! Well, not always. The thing you are looking for is on the next link after you give up!
Best to do everything you can to keep the epoxy off of the skin or scalp.
I have a bit over 100 lbs of lead in the keel/daggerboard for my Single Handed Schooner. Currently I am working on it inverted. Even this small thing is a terror if you let it get away from you. Very heavy objects must be treated with respect and the closer to floor lever you keep them, the longer your fingers and toes ( and arms and legs ) will remain attached.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "
----- Original Message ----
From: derbyrm <derbyrm@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:04:03 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
Yeah. Once upon a time I was taught to make the little paper hats that the press men at the Chicago Tribune would fold up to keep the ink out of their hair. Forgotten! These were not the pointed Lord Nelson hats that we all know how to fold. More of a skull cap so they don't get knocked off as easily. I wish I could find a web site for them.
The epoxy/hair issue isn't my main concern. It's the bendovers. I'm trying to do as much as possible with the boat inverted. Turning time will involve loops of webbing with the boat cradled in two of them and either the boat or the webbing sliding. Maybe I can stop halfway and do some of the things that would otherwise involve hanging upside down into a small compartment? (Of course I know that no good plan survives the opening stages of execution.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
http://www.hotlinecy.com/images/hat.pdf
It says it is a Pressman's Hat. Ain't Google Great! Well, not always. The thing you are looking for is on the next link after you give up!
Best to do everything you can to keep the epoxy off of the skin or scalp.
I have a bit over 100 lbs of lead in the keel/daggerboard for my Single Handed Schooner. Currently I am working on it inverted. Even this small thing is a terror if you let it get away from you. Very heavy objects must be treated with respect and the closer to floor lever you keep them, the longer your fingers and toes ( and arms and legs ) will remain attached.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "
----- Original Message ----
From: derbyrm <derbyrm@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:04:03 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
Yeah. Once upon a time I was taught to make the little paper hats that the press men at the Chicago Tribune would fold up to keep the ink out of their hair. Forgotten! These were not the pointed Lord Nelson hats that we all know how to fold. More of a skull cap so they don't get knocked off as easily. I wish I could find a web site for them.
The epoxy/hair issue isn't my main concern. It's the bendovers. I'm trying to do as much as possible with the boat inverted. Turning time will involve loops of webbing with the boat cradled in two of them and either the boat or the webbing sliding. Maybe I can stop halfway and do some of the things that would otherwise involve hanging upside down into a small compartment? (Of course I know that no good plan survives the opening stages of execution.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Clyde Wisner
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
A gallon of vinegar may be the answer. I hate to admit I've washed
thickened epoxy out of my hair several times. Clyde
erbyrm wrote:
> I've got the same problem in the foreseeable future. It isn't the
> "working on my backside" that bothers me. It is the getting down
> there, discovering that I've forgotten a tool, getting back up,
> getting back down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my face,
> mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't have too much epoxy in it,
> getting back down again, etc.
>
> Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
>derbyrm@...
> <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Hallman
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
>
> > things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
> > like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work.
>
> It is a lot like working under a car. Not easy, but OK. Use a
> mechanics creeper backboard with rollers.
>
>http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif
> <http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif>
>
> > Block and tackle are used to support the turning as well as many hands.
>
> The lifting power, and the number of hands mean nothing, without
> places to 'grab'. You need grab points with enough leverage to
> control the rotation of the center of gravity. MUCH easier said than
> done.
>
> MUCH simpler (in my opinion) to not fight gravity and instead spend an
> hour or so working on your back. Designing and building and disposing
> of the rigging device suitable to handle that roation force would
> certainly take longer than doing a bit of work on your backside..
>
> Oldshoe is only a 12 foot long hull, and I imagine the necessary
> rotation assembly might be about as tough to build as building the
> hull itself.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Breton Losch" <b.losch@...> wrote:
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/musicbox2/index.htm
Nels
>I have access to ~100 lbs of lead, and would like to keep the cost
> down, so I was thinking a combination of a smaller lead keel with anThis Michalak design might be of interest.
> internal ballast (probably ferro cement).
>
> Bret
>
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/musicbox2/index.htm
Nels
On the subject of paper hats:
http://home.no.net/origami/hat.htm
On the subject of Micros (long or otherwise), has anyone done any
experimentation with internal ballast instead of/in addition to the lead
keel? I have access to ~100 lbs of lead, and would like to keep the cost
down, so I was thinking a combination of a smaller lead keel with an
internal ballast (probably ferro cement).
Bret
http://home.no.net/origami/hat.htm
On the subject of Micros (long or otherwise), has anyone done any
experimentation with internal ballast instead of/in addition to the lead
keel? I have access to ~100 lbs of lead, and would like to keep the cost
down, so I was thinking a combination of a smaller lead keel with an
internal ballast (probably ferro cement).
Bret
On 11/15/06, derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah. Once upon a time I was taught to make the little paper hats that
> the press men at the Chicago Tribune would fold up to keep the ink out of
> their hair. Forgotten! These were not the pointed Lord Nelson hats that we
> all know how to fold. More of a skull cap so they don't get knocked off as
> easily. I wish I could find a web site for them.
>
> The epoxy/hair issue isn't my main concern. It's the bendovers. I'm trying
> to do as much as possible with the boat inverted. Turning time will involve
> loops of webbing with the boat cradled in two of them and either the boat or
> the webbing sliding. Maybe I can stop halfway and do some of the things that
> would otherwise involve hanging upside down into a small compartment? (Of
> course I know that no good plan survives the opening stages of execution.)
>
> Roger
>derbyrm@...<derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Clyde Wisner
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
>
> A gallon of vinegar may be the answer. I hate to admit I've washed
> thickened epoxy out of my hair several times. Clyde
>
> erbyrm wrote:
>
> > I've got the same problem in the foreseeable future. It isn't the
> > "working on my backside" that bothers me. It is the getting down
> > there, discovering that I've forgotten a tool, getting back up,
> > getting back down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my face,
> > mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't have too much epoxy in it,
> > getting back down again, etc.
> >
> > Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
> >derbyrm@...<derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> > <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm><
>http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bruce Hallman
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger%<bolger%25>
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
> >
> > > things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
> > > like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work.
> >
> > It is a lot like working under a car. Not easy, but OK. Use a
> > mechanics creeper backboard with rollers.
> >
> >http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif
> > <http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif>
> >
> > > Block and tackle are used to support the turning as well as many
> hands.
> >
> > The lifting power, and the number of hands mean nothing, without
> > places to 'grab'. You need grab points with enough leverage to
> > control the rotation of the center of gravity. MUCH easier said than
> > done.
> >
> > MUCH simpler (in my opinion) to not fight gravity and instead spend an
> > hour or so working on your back. Designing and building and disposing
> > of the rigging device suitable to handle that roation force would
> > certainly take longer than doing a bit of work on your backside..
> >
> > Oldshoe is only a 12 foot long hull, and I imagine the necessary
> > rotation assembly might be about as tough to build as building the
> > hull itself.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
"Windows XP according to everybody is the 'most reliable Windows ever.' To
me, this is like saying that asparagus is 'the most articulate vegetable
ever.'"
-- Dave Barry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yeah. Once upon a time I was taught to make the little paper hats that the press men at the Chicago Tribune would fold up to keep the ink out of their hair. Forgotten! These were not the pointed Lord Nelson hats that we all know how to fold. More of a skull cap so they don't get knocked off as easily. I wish I could find a web site for them.
The epoxy/hair issue isn't my main concern. It's the bendovers. I'm trying to do as much as possible with the boat inverted. Turning time will involve loops of webbing with the boat cradled in two of them and either the boat or the webbing sliding. Maybe I can stop halfway and do some of the things that would otherwise involve hanging upside down into a small compartment? (Of course I know that no good plan survives the opening stages of execution.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
The epoxy/hair issue isn't my main concern. It's the bendovers. I'm trying to do as much as possible with the boat inverted. Turning time will involve loops of webbing with the boat cradled in two of them and either the boat or the webbing sliding. Maybe I can stop halfway and do some of the things that would otherwise involve hanging upside down into a small compartment? (Of course I know that no good plan survives the opening stages of execution.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Clyde Wisner
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
A gallon of vinegar may be the answer. I hate to admit I've washed
thickened epoxy out of my hair several times. Clyde
erbyrm wrote:
> I've got the same problem in the foreseeable future. It isn't the
> "working on my backside" that bothers me. It is the getting down
> there, discovering that I've forgotten a tool, getting back up,
> getting back down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my face,
> mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't have too much epoxy in it,
> getting back down again, etc.
>
> Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
>derbyrm@...
> <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Hallman
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
>
> > things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
> > like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work.
>
> It is a lot like working under a car. Not easy, but OK. Use a
> mechanics creeper backboard with rollers.
>
>http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif
> <http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif>
>
> > Block and tackle are used to support the turning as well as many hands.
>
> The lifting power, and the number of hands mean nothing, without
> places to 'grab'. You need grab points with enough leverage to
> control the rotation of the center of gravity. MUCH easier said than
> done.
>
> MUCH simpler (in my opinion) to not fight gravity and instead spend an
> hour or so working on your back. Designing and building and disposing
> of the rigging device suitable to handle that roation force would
> certainly take longer than doing a bit of work on your backside..
>
> Oldshoe is only a 12 foot long hull, and I imagine the necessary
> rotation assembly might be about as tough to build as building the
> hull itself.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A gallon of vinegar may be the answer. I hate to admit I've washed
thickened epoxy out of my hair several times. Clyde
erbyrm wrote:
thickened epoxy out of my hair several times. Clyde
erbyrm wrote:
> I've got the same problem in the foreseeable future. It isn't the[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "working on my backside" that bothers me. It is the getting down
> there, discovering that I've forgotten a tool, getting back up,
> getting back down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my face,
> mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't have too much epoxy in it,
> getting back down again, etc.
>
> Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
>derbyrm@...
> <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Hallman
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
>
> > things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
> > like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work.
>
> It is a lot like working under a car. Not easy, but OK. Use a
> mechanics creeper backboard with rollers.
>
>http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif
> <http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif>
>
> > Block and tackle are used to support the turning as well as many hands.
>
> The lifting power, and the number of hands mean nothing, without
> places to 'grab'. You need grab points with enough leverage to
> control the rotation of the center of gravity. MUCH easier said than
> done.
>
> MUCH simpler (in my opinion) to not fight gravity and instead spend an
> hour or so working on your back. Designing and building and disposing
> of the rigging device suitable to handle that roation force would
> certainly take longer than doing a bit of work on your backside..
>
> Oldshoe is only a 12 foot long hull, and I imagine the necessary
> rotation assembly might be about as tough to build as building the
> hull itself.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Hey guys just so you all know putting the keel under
an sailboat is a pain in the butt even at a shop that
works on sailboats! When I was living in Seattle I
worked at a shop that did mostly sailboat repairs.
That is also where I learned Sailing was a FULL
CONTACT SPORT!
Yep get lifeline stations that were bent at right
angles to their bases or bow pulpets that looked like
a pretzel. Not to say a thing about the fiberglass
that needed fixing... All over a duck!
Blessings all
Krissie
--- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
an sailboat is a pain in the butt even at a shop that
works on sailboats! When I was living in Seattle I
worked at a shop that did mostly sailboat repairs.
That is also where I learned Sailing was a FULL
CONTACT SPORT!
Yep get lifeline stations that were bent at right
angles to their bases or bow pulpets that looked like
a pretzel. Not to say a thing about the fiberglass
that needed fixing... All over a duck!
Blessings all
Krissie
--- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
> I've got the same problem in the foreseeable future.____________________________________________________________________________________
> It isn't the "working on my backside" that bothers
> me. It is the getting down there, discovering that
> I've forgotten a tool, getting back up, getting back
> down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my
> face, mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't
> have too much epoxy in it, getting back down again,
> etc.
>
> Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Glue in the hair is better than losing control of a hull with stability
like an upside down inflatable clown punching bag.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like an upside down inflatable clown punching bag.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
there, discovering that I've forgotten a tool, getting back up,
getting back down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my face,
mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't have too much epoxy in it,
getting back down again, etc.
Maybe goggles, full mask and a tyvek suit with hood would help:-)
I know what you mean. You just wriggle down under and get comfortable
and realize the pot of goop is still on the workbench. Then you get a
crick in your neck looking around for it.
Then the goggles fog up from all that effort:-(
Nels
>"working on my backside" that bothers me. It is the getting down
> I've got the same problem in the foreseeable future. It isn't the
there, discovering that I've forgotten a tool, getting back up,
getting back down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my face,
mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't have too much epoxy in it,
getting back down again, etc.
>You have hair?
> Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
Maybe goggles, full mask and a tyvek suit with hood would help:-)
I know what you mean. You just wriggle down under and get comfortable
and realize the pot of goop is still on the workbench. Then you get a
crick in your neck looking around for it.
Then the goggles fog up from all that effort:-(
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
Preparing the right fairing compound and having the right tools to do
it are also important. You get to practice that with the interior
bulkheads.
Actually the glassing and fairing of the keel assembly could all be
done before the hull is turned over? Just leave one side open where
the lead goes. Then nail down the last (pre glassed) piece to the keel
batten and to the lead and that is the only area you have to glass in
place with tape and then install the bottom sacrificial strip with
bedding compound and screws? Unless of course you can raise the hull
high enough to insert the keel from below.
Also several old tires make good supporters if the hull is laid down
on it's side.
Nels
>hands.
> > things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
> > like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work.
>
> It is a lot like working under a car. Not easy, but OK. Use a
> mechanics creeper backboard with rollers.
>
>http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif
>
>
> > Block and tackle are used to support the turning as well as many
>Words of wisdom:-) Lying on a creeper can be quite relaxing actually.
> The lifting power, and the number of hands mean nothing, without
> places to 'grab'. You need grab points with enough leverage to
> control the rotation of the center of gravity. MUCH easier said than
> done.
>
> MUCH simpler (in my opinion) to not fight gravity and instead spend an
> hour or so working on your back. Designing and building and disposing
> of the rigging device suitable to handle that roation force would
> certainly take longer than doing a bit of work on your backside..
>
> Oldshoe is only a 12 foot long hull, and I imagine the necessary
> rotation assembly might be about as tough to build as building the
> hull itself.
Preparing the right fairing compound and having the right tools to do
it are also important. You get to practice that with the interior
bulkheads.
Actually the glassing and fairing of the keel assembly could all be
done before the hull is turned over? Just leave one side open where
the lead goes. Then nail down the last (pre glassed) piece to the keel
batten and to the lead and that is the only area you have to glass in
place with tape and then install the bottom sacrificial strip with
bedding compound and screws? Unless of course you can raise the hull
high enough to insert the keel from below.
Also several old tires make good supporters if the hull is laid down
on it's side.
Nels
I've got the same problem in the foreseeable future. It isn't the "working on my backside" that bothers me. It is the getting down there, discovering that I've forgotten a tool, getting back up, getting back down, getting up quickly to wipe the goop out of my face, mopping up the work area so my hair doesn't have too much epoxy in it, getting back down again, etc.
Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger (not adequately skilled at planning ahead)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Long Micro keel
> things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
> like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work.
It is a lot like working under a car. Not easy, but OK. Use a
mechanics creeper backboard with rollers.
http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif
> Block and tackle are used to support the turning as well as many hands.
The lifting power, and the number of hands mean nothing, without
places to 'grab'. You need grab points with enough leverage to
control the rotation of the center of gravity. MUCH easier said than
done.
MUCH simpler (in my opinion) to not fight gravity and instead spend an
hour or so working on your back. Designing and building and disposing
of the rigging device suitable to handle that roation force would
certainly take longer than doing a bit of work on your backside..
Oldshoe is only a 12 foot long hull, and I imagine the necessary
rotation assembly might be about as tough to build as building the
hull itself.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "lancasterdennis" <dlancast@...> wrote:
utility trailer then it might be worthwhile to build a cradle. That
way the boat can be even stored off the trailer freeing it up for your
next boat;-)
With a cradle you can raise and lower the hull, just by jacking up the
cradle and even roll it around with some PCV rollers and/or a platform
jack that has castors.
You have two skids suporting the cradle. 12 foot 4 x4's likely for an
OS. and 2 x 4 cross beams. A cradle suport topped with rug under the
forward and aft bulkheads.
Nels
>How are you planning to trailer your Oldshoe? If it is on a flat
> --
> William,
>
> I can sure appreciate what you are saying. Believe me, I have
> visualized this a thousand times in my mind, but I do not speak from
> experience..
utility trailer then it might be worthwhile to build a cradle. That
way the boat can be even stored off the trailer freeing it up for your
next boat;-)
With a cradle you can raise and lower the hull, just by jacking up the
cradle and even roll it around with some PCV rollers and/or a platform
jack that has castors.
You have two skids suporting the cradle. 12 foot 4 x4's likely for an
OS. and 2 x 4 cross beams. A cradle suport topped with rug under the
forward and aft bulkheads.
Nels
> things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would beIt is a lot like working under a car. Not easy, but OK. Use a
> like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work.
mechanics creeper backboard with rollers.
http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/145511_lg.gif
> Block and tackle are used to support the turning as well as many hands.The lifting power, and the number of hands mean nothing, without
places to 'grab'. You need grab points with enough leverage to
control the rotation of the center of gravity. MUCH easier said than
done.
MUCH simpler (in my opinion) to not fight gravity and instead spend an
hour or so working on your back. Designing and building and disposing
of the rigging device suitable to handle that roation force would
certainly take longer than doing a bit of work on your backside..
Oldshoe is only a 12 foot long hull, and I imagine the necessary
rotation assembly might be about as tough to build as building the
hull itself.
--
William,
I can sure appreciate what you are saying. Believe me, I have
visualized this a thousand times in my mind, but I do not speak from
experience.. two very different things. I visualized a weakness on
my unsupported sides, especially with no cap rails in place.. and we
are talking about thin 1/4" ply. I already know how heavy my dead
weighted lead ballast is and I mean "heavy". Another "Shoe" builder
did just as you suggest and brought the hull down onto the keel.
Their really isn't any reason why I can't do the same. I can go ahead
and dry fit my keel assembly without the lead, so that I know its
going to fit properly, then bring the hull to it after the ballast is
inserted. I just felt that it would be a whole lot easier to attach
and finish filleting out the keel while the boat is upside down and
things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work. On the other
method, I think that a rolling frame would be the way to go. I think
you know what I am talking about here. I have visited a number of
building web sites that show this method in action. Block and tackle
are used to support the turning as well as many hands. I've got
plenty of time to think on this before deciding, I won't be building
my strongback until spring of next year.
Again, thanks for the inputs.
Regards,
Dennis
Bellngham, WA (currently building the "OLD SHOE".
- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@...> wrote:
William,
I can sure appreciate what you are saying. Believe me, I have
visualized this a thousand times in my mind, but I do not speak from
experience.. two very different things. I visualized a weakness on
my unsupported sides, especially with no cap rails in place.. and we
are talking about thin 1/4" ply. I already know how heavy my dead
weighted lead ballast is and I mean "heavy". Another "Shoe" builder
did just as you suggest and brought the hull down onto the keel.
Their really isn't any reason why I can't do the same. I can go ahead
and dry fit my keel assembly without the lead, so that I know its
going to fit properly, then bring the hull to it after the ballast is
inserted. I just felt that it would be a whole lot easier to attach
and finish filleting out the keel while the boat is upside down and
things are easier to reach... I can only imagine what it would be
like to crawl under that boat to do the finish work. On the other
method, I think that a rolling frame would be the way to go. I think
you know what I am talking about here. I have visited a number of
building web sites that show this method in action. Block and tackle
are used to support the turning as well as many hands. I've got
plenty of time to think on this before deciding, I won't be building
my strongback until spring of next year.
Again, thanks for the inputs.
Regards,
Dennis
Bellngham, WA (currently building the "OLD SHOE".
- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@...> wrote:
>me before.
> Dennis,
> Maybe these thoughts are useful or maybe not. That's never stopped
> Imagine that your boat is upside down, we are looking at the bow ofdirections
> your upside down boat,
> and there's a big clock pained on the wall behind your boat. Your
> keel points to 12 o' clock,
> and you want to flip/rotate your keel past 9 o'clock, to the 6
> o'clock position.
>
> I have flipped my LM a couple times. First, I defied the
> and assembled my hull sidesthe
> and bulkheads right-side-up. I had to flip the hull in order to
> install the bottom. Then I flipped the
> boat onto one side in order to lay the fiberglass cloth on one
> side. I repeated this in order to sheath
> the other side. And then a final flip, to put the while hull
> upright. So, here's my thoughts.
>
> You are most likely to damage your hull (primarily the sides, by
> cockpit, where the sides (thwart?)upper
> are weakest) when you first start rotating (when your keep is
> pointing from 11:30 to 9:30). All the weight
> is carried on starboard side, with the load concentrated on the
> part of the side. I would suggestlikely
> reinforcing the sides here, at the top (maybe c-clamping some wood
> along the top edge, and maybe some
> diagonal braces).
>
> Once you get your keel to the 9 o'clock position, you are less
> to damage your boat. However, thethis
> righting moment of the lead is now at it's strongest, so you are
> likely to hurt your lifting crew (or whatever
> device you are using to flip the boat). If I were around during
> flipping procedure, I would want to seeor
> redundant catches and safety devices, to prevent hurting the boat
> crew. And I second Bruce Hallman'sballast.
> advice that you flip the boat while dry, and then install the
>
> YMMV.
> Bill, in Ohio, with his LM
>
> William,
> Thanks for the reply. You bet I'm concerned about turning the boat
> with the ballast mounted. I need to give that a great deal of
> thought. Their are several ways to approach it, from turning with
> many hands to building a turning frame, to block and tackle from the
> rafters. My lead weighs in at 216lbs, much lighter than your
> Micro. I believe my hull will be less than 400lbs when its turned.
> I sure would appreciate any other advice from this fine group on the
> subject of turning the hull.
> Would love to see more pictures when you get the chance.
> I'm warm, but very wet. Quack!
> Dennis
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Dennis,
Maybe these thoughts are useful or maybe not. That's never stopped me before.
Imagine that your boat is upside down, we are looking at the bow of
your upside down boat,
and there's a big clock pained on the wall behind your boat. Your
keel points to 12 o' clock,
and you want to flip/rotate your keel past 9 o'clock, to the 6
o'clock position.
I have flipped my LM a couple times. First, I defied the directions
and assembled my hull sides
and bulkheads right-side-up. I had to flip the hull in order to
install the bottom. Then I flipped the
boat onto one side in order to lay the fiberglass cloth on one
side. I repeated this in order to sheath
the other side. And then a final flip, to put the while hull
upright. So, here's my thoughts.
You are most likely to damage your hull (primarily the sides, by the
cockpit, where the sides (thwart?)
are weakest) when you first start rotating (when your keep is
pointing from 11:30 to 9:30). All the weight
is carried on starboard side, with the load concentrated on the upper
part of the side. I would suggest
reinforcing the sides here, at the top (maybe c-clamping some wood
along the top edge, and maybe some
diagonal braces).
Once you get your keel to the 9 o'clock position, you are less likely
to damage your boat. However, the
righting moment of the lead is now at it's strongest, so you are
likely to hurt your lifting crew (or whatever
device you are using to flip the boat). If I were around during this
flipping procedure, I would want to see
redundant catches and safety devices, to prevent hurting the boat or
crew. And I second Bruce Hallman's
advice that you flip the boat while dry, and then install the ballast.
YMMV.
Bill, in Ohio, with his LM
William,
Thanks for the reply. You bet I'm concerned about turning the boat
with the ballast mounted. I need to give that a great deal of
thought. Their are several ways to approach it, from turning with
many hands to building a turning frame, to block and tackle from the
rafters. My lead weighs in at 216lbs, much lighter than your
Micro. I believe my hull will be less than 400lbs when its turned.
I sure would appreciate any other advice from this fine group on the
subject of turning the hull.
Would love to see more pictures when you get the chance.
I'm warm, but very wet. Quack!
Dennis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe these thoughts are useful or maybe not. That's never stopped me before.
Imagine that your boat is upside down, we are looking at the bow of
your upside down boat,
and there's a big clock pained on the wall behind your boat. Your
keel points to 12 o' clock,
and you want to flip/rotate your keel past 9 o'clock, to the 6
o'clock position.
I have flipped my LM a couple times. First, I defied the directions
and assembled my hull sides
and bulkheads right-side-up. I had to flip the hull in order to
install the bottom. Then I flipped the
boat onto one side in order to lay the fiberglass cloth on one
side. I repeated this in order to sheath
the other side. And then a final flip, to put the while hull
upright. So, here's my thoughts.
You are most likely to damage your hull (primarily the sides, by the
cockpit, where the sides (thwart?)
are weakest) when you first start rotating (when your keep is
pointing from 11:30 to 9:30). All the weight
is carried on starboard side, with the load concentrated on the upper
part of the side. I would suggest
reinforcing the sides here, at the top (maybe c-clamping some wood
along the top edge, and maybe some
diagonal braces).
Once you get your keel to the 9 o'clock position, you are less likely
to damage your boat. However, the
righting moment of the lead is now at it's strongest, so you are
likely to hurt your lifting crew (or whatever
device you are using to flip the boat). If I were around during this
flipping procedure, I would want to see
redundant catches and safety devices, to prevent hurting the boat or
crew. And I second Bruce Hallman's
advice that you flip the boat while dry, and then install the ballast.
YMMV.
Bill, in Ohio, with his LM
William,
Thanks for the reply. You bet I'm concerned about turning the boat
with the ballast mounted. I need to give that a great deal of
thought. Their are several ways to approach it, from turning with
many hands to building a turning frame, to block and tackle from the
rafters. My lead weighs in at 216lbs, much lighter than your
Micro. I believe my hull will be less than 400lbs when its turned.
I sure would appreciate any other advice from this fine group on the
subject of turning the hull.
Would love to see more pictures when you get the chance.
I'm warm, but very wet. Quack!
Dennis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Having done this once with my Micro, (unless you have access to a
really good shop hoist), I strongly recommend waiting to install your
lead ballast until after you flip the hull right side up.
I raised the hull up on blocks, using a farm jack, and rolled the
ballast into location using a home made plywood 'truck' and pipe
rollers. I then lowered the hull down to the ballast, and nailed it
all up tight.
really good shop hoist), I strongly recommend waiting to install your
lead ballast until after you flip the hull right side up.
I raised the hull up on blocks, using a farm jack, and rolled the
ballast into location using a home made plywood 'truck' and pipe
rollers. I then lowered the hull down to the ballast, and nailed it
all up tight.
-
William,
Thanks for the reply. You bet I'm concerned about turning the boat
with the ballast mounted. I need to give that a great deal of
thought. Their are several ways to approach it, from turning with
many hands to building a turning frame, to block and tackle from the
rafters. My lead weighs in at 216lbs, much lighter than your
Micro. I believe my hull will be less than 400lbs when its turned.
I sure would appreciate any other advice from this fine group on the
subject of turning the hull.
Would love to see more pictures when you get the chance.
I'm warm, but very wet. Quack!
Dennis
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@...> wrote:
William,
Thanks for the reply. You bet I'm concerned about turning the boat
with the ballast mounted. I need to give that a great deal of
thought. Their are several ways to approach it, from turning with
many hands to building a turning frame, to block and tackle from the
rafters. My lead weighs in at 216lbs, much lighter than your
Micro. I believe my hull will be less than 400lbs when its turned.
I sure would appreciate any other advice from this fine group on the
subject of turning the hull.
Would love to see more pictures when you get the chance.
I'm warm, but very wet. Quack!
Dennis
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@...> wrote:
>which
> Dennis,
> Thanks for your kind words, and sorry for taking so long to
> reply. This past week has
> been horrible here. I need to post some fresh pictures. I've
> mounted my tabernable (in the
> bow) and I'm now framing the bow well. I have also
>
> I have not mounted my lead yet. I currently have a metal mold
> I welded up. I hopethe
> to use the mold to serve as both the melting vessel, and the (you
> guessed it) mold, for my
> lead. Once completed I plan to raise my LM via a floor jack and a
> hoist. I will roll my lead
> under the boat on pipes, position, and then lower the boat onto
> lead. My keel (thethe
> wooden fin-thingy) is currently complete, but has a big slot in
> middle for the lead to slidewhat
> into.
>
> I haven't had enough coffee today, so I'm not sure I understand
> you plan to do. I also recalltheir
> the Oldshoe uses something around 200-300 lbs of lead? Someone in
> England installed their lead
> ballast (in a Micro) when the boat was upside down. And then they
> tried to flip the boat back
> "right side up". And they said their gang of helpers about had
> arms ripped out while theythis
> tried to keep the boat from flipping upright. I don't know if
> is relevant at all, but I'm sureload
> other members will have more experience in this matter than I.
>
> Please keep me posted on your Oldshoe, and stay warm.
> Bill, in Ohio
> William,
>
> Tks for sharing those shots of your Micro. I am always inspired to
> see construction shots. My progress with building the OldShoe is
> slow as well. I am collecting alot of pieces that I hope will come
> together this next Spring and start looking like a boat. I have a
> question for you. How did you mount your lead ballast? So far, my
> plan is to have the hull finished upside down, dry fit the keel,
> the ballast, finish the keel and then lift it into position overthe
> keelson (with the help of many hands).
> Best of luck to you, she is looking real nice.
> Regards,
> Dennis
> Bellingham, Wa.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Dennis,
Thanks for your kind words, and sorry for taking so long to
reply. This past week has
been horrible here. I need to post some fresh pictures. I've
mounted my tabernable (in the
bow) and I'm now framing the bow well. I have also
I have not mounted my lead yet. I currently have a metal mold which
I welded up. I hope
to use the mold to serve as both the melting vessel, and the (you
guessed it) mold, for my
lead. Once completed I plan to raise my LM via a floor jack and a
hoist. I will roll my lead
under the boat on pipes, position, and then lower the boat onto the
lead. My keel (the
wooden fin-thingy) is currently complete, but has a big slot in the
middle for the lead to slide
into.
I haven't had enough coffee today, so I'm not sure I understand what
you plan to do. I also recall
the Oldshoe uses something around 200-300 lbs of lead? Someone in
England installed their lead
ballast (in a Micro) when the boat was upside down. And then they
tried to flip the boat back
"right side up". And they said their gang of helpers about had their
arms ripped out while they
tried to keep the boat from flipping upright. I don't know if this
is relevant at all, but I'm sure
other members will have more experience in this matter than I.
Please keep me posted on your Oldshoe, and stay warm.
Bill, in Ohio
William,
Tks for sharing those shots of your Micro. I am always inspired to
see construction shots. My progress with building the OldShoe is
slow as well. I am collecting alot of pieces that I hope will come
together this next Spring and start looking like a boat. I have a
question for you. How did you mount your lead ballast? So far, my
plan is to have the hull finished upside down, dry fit the keel, load
the ballast, finish the keel and then lift it into position over the
keelson (with the help of many hands).
Best of luck to you, she is looking real nice.
Regards,
Dennis
Bellingham, Wa.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for your kind words, and sorry for taking so long to
reply. This past week has
been horrible here. I need to post some fresh pictures. I've
mounted my tabernable (in the
bow) and I'm now framing the bow well. I have also
I have not mounted my lead yet. I currently have a metal mold which
I welded up. I hope
to use the mold to serve as both the melting vessel, and the (you
guessed it) mold, for my
lead. Once completed I plan to raise my LM via a floor jack and a
hoist. I will roll my lead
under the boat on pipes, position, and then lower the boat onto the
lead. My keel (the
wooden fin-thingy) is currently complete, but has a big slot in the
middle for the lead to slide
into.
I haven't had enough coffee today, so I'm not sure I understand what
you plan to do. I also recall
the Oldshoe uses something around 200-300 lbs of lead? Someone in
England installed their lead
ballast (in a Micro) when the boat was upside down. And then they
tried to flip the boat back
"right side up". And they said their gang of helpers about had their
arms ripped out while they
tried to keep the boat from flipping upright. I don't know if this
is relevant at all, but I'm sure
other members will have more experience in this matter than I.
Please keep me posted on your Oldshoe, and stay warm.
Bill, in Ohio
William,
Tks for sharing those shots of your Micro. I am always inspired to
see construction shots. My progress with building the OldShoe is
slow as well. I am collecting alot of pieces that I hope will come
together this next Spring and start looking like a boat. I have a
question for you. How did you mount your lead ballast? So far, my
plan is to have the hull finished upside down, dry fit the keel, load
the ballast, finish the keel and then lift it into position over the
keelson (with the help of many hands).
Best of luck to you, she is looking real nice.
Regards,
Dennis
Bellingham, Wa.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]