Re: [bolger] Re: DOUBLE EAGLE - Oops
You'll have better luck finding them athttp://www.aircraftspruce.com/
Roger (I've done business with them for decades.)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger (I've done business with them for decades.)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristine Bennett
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: DOUBLE EAGLE - Oops
Hey that is a good idea And here is an idea for
cutting any blue or pink foam. It's called a hot wire.
Aircraft Spruce has Burt Rutan's training book
"Moldless Composite Homebuilt Sandwich Aircraft
Construction" part number 13-11600 and it's 14.50.
Their number is 1-877-4-Spruce or their website is
www.aricraftspruce.com
It covers how to make a hotwire cutter and a few other
things that would be helpful for those of us useing
epoxy. It is geared toward aircraft but it also has a
lot of good info for boat builders as well.
With a hotwire cutting styrofoam is easy and makes
very little mess and you don't have to deal with the
light little beads and dust floating all over the work
place! I saw a hotwire set up like a bandsaw for
cutting big blocks of foam for filling voids in welded
aluminum boats.
I keep looking at the pink and blue foam and thinking
how easy it would to be to build a small power cat out
of stacked up board foam for the hulls. We know it
would not sink with all that foam no matter what you
hit.
Ideas and more ideas, just no place to work out of the
rain right now.... With luck that will change some
time soon!
Blessings all and happy Thanksgiving.
Krissie
--- Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
> I dreamed last night that Double Eagle got hauled
> out,braced in the
> middle,and a whole gang of us proceeded to laminate
> successive layers
> of 2" blue styrofoam,bread and butter fashion,onto
> the bottom.We then
> shaped this massive lightweight "king of sandwiches"
> into something
> streamlined.....we took turns laying on our backs
> with surfoam
> files....while the relief crew kept well hydrated.A
> thick 'glass
> overlay was to go on next but my alarm clock went
> off before we made
> it that far.....I recall the beer as being very good
> and cold :-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hey that is a good idea And here is an idea for
cutting any blue or pink foam. It's called a hot wire.
Aircraft Spruce has Burt Rutan's training book
"Moldless Composite Homebuilt Sandwich Aircraft
Construction" part number 13-11600 and it's 14.50.
Their number is 1-877-4-Spruce or their website is
www.aricraftspruce.com
It covers how to make a hotwire cutter and a few other
things that would be helpful for those of us useing
epoxy. It is geared toward aircraft but it also has a
lot of good info for boat builders as well.
With a hotwire cutting styrofoam is easy and makes
very little mess and you don't have to deal with the
light little beads and dust floating all over the work
place! I saw a hotwire set up like a bandsaw for
cutting big blocks of foam for filling voids in welded
aluminum boats.
I keep looking at the pink and blue foam and thinking
how easy it would to be to build a small power cat out
of stacked up board foam for the hulls. We know it
would not sink with all that foam no matter what you
hit.
Ideas and more ideas, just no place to work out of the
rain right now.... With luck that will change some
time soon!
Blessings all and happy Thanksgiving.
Krissie
--- Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
cutting any blue or pink foam. It's called a hot wire.
Aircraft Spruce has Burt Rutan's training book
"Moldless Composite Homebuilt Sandwich Aircraft
Construction" part number 13-11600 and it's 14.50.
Their number is 1-877-4-Spruce or their website is
www.aricraftspruce.com
It covers how to make a hotwire cutter and a few other
things that would be helpful for those of us useing
epoxy. It is geared toward aircraft but it also has a
lot of good info for boat builders as well.
With a hotwire cutting styrofoam is easy and makes
very little mess and you don't have to deal with the
light little beads and dust floating all over the work
place! I saw a hotwire set up like a bandsaw for
cutting big blocks of foam for filling voids in welded
aluminum boats.
I keep looking at the pink and blue foam and thinking
how easy it would to be to build a small power cat out
of stacked up board foam for the hulls. We know it
would not sink with all that foam no matter what you
hit.
Ideas and more ideas, just no place to work out of the
rain right now.... With luck that will change some
time soon!
Blessings all and happy Thanksgiving.
Krissie
--- Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
> I dreamed last night that Double Eagle got hauled____________________________________________________________________________________
> out,braced in the
> middle,and a whole gang of us proceeded to laminate
> successive layers
> of 2" blue styrofoam,bread and butter fashion,onto
> the bottom.We then
> shaped this massive lightweight "king of sandwiches"
> into something
> streamlined.....we took turns laying on our backs
> with surfoam
> files....while the relief crew kept well hydrated.A
> thick 'glass
> overlay was to go on next but my alarm clock went
> off before we made
> it that far.....I recall the beer as being very good
> and cold :-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
> Though after looking at the photos, I don't see that the actualThe photos I saw seemed high in the back not the reverse. But I was
> floating lines of that hull look bad at all.
>
guessing those were post bustle, and minus full working load.
> As Phil Bolger probably has already told you, I guess that the fixNo.
> will take the form of deepening the hulls with new bottoms.
It came to me in a dream, the displacement can more easily be
increased by making the hulls wider, not deeper. A bunch of work, but
simpl straight forward work.
Though after looking at the photos, I don't see that the actual
floating lines of that hull look bad at all.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
of stuff like the anchor, the people, the water tanks, the fueltanks,
every last piece of stuff on the boat. It can be done in a spreadsheet
either by hand or like Lotus. That's how it is supposed to be done,
it's like lesson 6 in the YDI yacht course I took. But if you have a
plan, and you have a boat with an actual waterline, you have all the
info you need as to gross adjustments, where those adjustments get made
is a whole other thing.
Sounds like a good plan Fritz. But as my friend used to say, "trust
your mother but cut the cards".
>It's hard to do it all in a hulls program because you need the location
> The fore and aft balance point could be measured, on a dry shop floor
> full size, by positioning a fulcrum point under the hull.
> Teeter-totter.
>
of stuff like the anchor, the people, the water tanks, the fueltanks,
every last piece of stuff on the boat. It can be done in a spreadsheet
either by hand or like Lotus. That's how it is supposed to be done,
it's like lesson 6 in the YDI yacht course I took. But if you have a
plan, and you have a boat with an actual waterline, you have all the
info you need as to gross adjustments, where those adjustments get made
is a whole other thing.
Sounds like a good plan Fritz. But as my friend used to say, "trust
your mother but cut the cards".
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "fritzdfk" <gaffcat@...> wrote:
Fritz!!!!!!!....you've done a few Everests just building and launching
her.....I hope the cure amounts to no more then a mole hill :-)
Keep a good thought!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
>Just saw this after posting about my dream.....Hang in there
> Thanks everyone for your encouragement and ideas. I am going to wait
> and see what Bolger has to say before I make any drastic plans. The
> first thing to be done as Bolger said is to find out where and when
> things went wrong, a "forensic analysis" in his words.
Fritz!!!!!!!....you've done a few Everests just building and launching
her.....I hope the cure amounts to no more then a mole hill :-)
Keep a good thought!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I dreamed last night that Double Eagle got hauled out,braced in the
middle,and a whole gang of us proceeded to laminate successive layers
of 2" blue styrofoam,bread and butter fashion,onto the bottom.We then
shaped this massive lightweight "king of sandwiches" into something
streamlined.....we took turns laying on our backs with surfoam
files....while the relief crew kept well hydrated.A thick 'glass
overlay was to go on next but my alarm clock went off before we made
it that far.....I recall the beer as being very good and cold :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
middle,and a whole gang of us proceeded to laminate successive layers
of 2" blue styrofoam,bread and butter fashion,onto the bottom.We then
shaped this massive lightweight "king of sandwiches" into something
streamlined.....we took turns laying on our backs with surfoam
files....while the relief crew kept well hydrated.A thick 'glass
overlay was to go on next but my alarm clock went off before we made
it that far.....I recall the beer as being very good and cold :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Thanks everyone for your encouragement and ideas. I am going to wait
and see what Bolger has to say before I make any drastic plans. The
first thing to be done as Bolger said is to find out where and when
things went wrong, a "forensic analysis" in his words.
The interior of the boat is spartan compared to production boats.
Berth flats, convertible dinette, galley cabinets, a small cabinet in
the wheelhouse and head and not much more.
One of my first ideas was to convert the boat to a trawler from a
sailboat. All the sail rig and gear would be removed and I think that
some of the somewhat massive hull reinforcements added when the boat
was widened could be removed. The dragging centerboard would also go.
The very heavy rudders would be much smaller. Propulsion would be the
one area where this plan would add weight. I have a single 60hp
outboard now and in a powerboat configuration I think a more
substantial powerplant would be necessary or possibly twin outboards.
Maybe a small diesel in each hull.
fritz
and see what Bolger has to say before I make any drastic plans. The
first thing to be done as Bolger said is to find out where and when
things went wrong, a "forensic analysis" in his words.
The interior of the boat is spartan compared to production boats.
Berth flats, convertible dinette, galley cabinets, a small cabinet in
the wheelhouse and head and not much more.
One of my first ideas was to convert the boat to a trawler from a
sailboat. All the sail rig and gear would be removed and I think that
some of the somewhat massive hull reinforcements added when the boat
was widened could be removed. The dragging centerboard would also go.
The very heavy rudders would be much smaller. Propulsion would be the
one area where this plan would add weight. I have a single 60hp
outboard now and in a powerboat configuration I think a more
substantial powerplant would be necessary or possibly twin outboards.
Maybe a small diesel in each hull.
fritz
The fore and aft balance point could be measured, on a dry shop floor
full size, by positioning a fulcrum point under the hull.
Teeter-totter.
full size, by positioning a fulcrum point under the hull.
Teeter-totter.
Roger,
in FREE!ship panels (e.g. of plywood) are represented by "layers". You
can give each layer a specific weight (t/m3 or lbs/ft3) and a
thickness. With a bit of monitoring in the beginning, you should be
able to soon figure out what values you should add as specific weight
for your kind of ply (including epoxy and paint coating). Right now
edges (chine logs etc.) have no weight, so you have to factor this in
with your panels. You should soon have the required parameters to do
fairly good weight estimations (including CG) within FREE!ship.
Stefan
--- "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
in FREE!ship panels (e.g. of plywood) are represented by "layers". You
can give each layer a specific weight (t/m3 or lbs/ft3) and a
thickness. With a bit of monitoring in the beginning, you should be
able to soon figure out what values you should add as specific weight
for your kind of ply (including epoxy and paint coating). Right now
edges (chine logs etc.) have no weight, so you have to factor this in
with your panels. You should soon have the required parameters to do
fairly good weight estimations (including CG) within FREE!ship.
Stefan
--- "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> For me, calculating the weight of the structure is the impossible
> part. Lumps like engines, anchor, etc. are pretty straight forward.
For me, calculating the weight of the structure is the impossible part. Lumps like engines, anchor, etc. are pretty straight forward. I built a model of Jay Benford's "Badger" using 1/32" plywood and it floated on its lines! (Yes, I did have the cast lead keel on the model.)
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/Misc.html
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/Misc.html
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Probst
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:58 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: DOUBLE EAGLE - Oops
--- "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
> This is the reason for model building.
Right. FREE!ship model ... ;)
Problem is, that you need to know the weight of the single parts in
order to get the total weight and center of gravity. Once you have
that, you can find out where the boat would float.
Stefan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
that position, wheter in the virtual space or the bathtub, one can come
up with the CB and displacement that are required to hit the original
intent. If one knows where the actual waterline is, as in 7 inches
down in the back, 2 inches up in the front, one can model what that
shape displaces and where the CB for that is. With that info one can
come up with the CB and Displacement change required either to return
the boat to it's original lines, or prop it up to new lines. One could
also check whether the original lines were correct as far as
displacement and some reasonable CB is concerned.
Of course if no spreadsheet of weights and metacenters was ever done,
then it's hard to follow that audit trail, but in reality I don't think
that is probably how this will go. I certainly don't have enough info
to speculate on this particular boat, but if you take a general 40 foot
roomaran, it's probably picking up 1300 pounds an inch. So righting 5
inches of added imersion would be 6500 pounds of triming. Are we then
at the loaded lines or the light lines? It could be a 4 thousand pound
problem or a 14000 pound problem (sounds way high). A typical 40
footer would be 40 feet on the waterline not 36 and a bunch of other
differences to be sure. Either way, this kind of eror sorta calls for
removing the whole house and all the mechanicals and rebuilding in
foam. Or rebuilding the hulls completly. So the adjustments are
likely to be global and not related to the weight of individual
pieces. As I say this has nothing to do with DE, because 5 inches
lower than some point with the tail dragging can mean a lot of
different things, and I don't even know the planed displacement.
My neighbours 46 foot cat has plywood kitchen appointments and a pump
sink like a bottle of soap. Boats of this type need to be fitted out
very lightly.
wrote:
>The original plan would show the intended waterline, and if one models
> --- "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@> wrote:
> > This is the reason for model building.
>
> Right. FREE!ship model ... ;)
>
> Problem is, that you need to know the weight of the single parts in
> order to get the total weight and center of gravity. Once you have
> that, you can find out where the boat would float.
>
> Stefan
>
that position, wheter in the virtual space or the bathtub, one can come
up with the CB and displacement that are required to hit the original
intent. If one knows where the actual waterline is, as in 7 inches
down in the back, 2 inches up in the front, one can model what that
shape displaces and where the CB for that is. With that info one can
come up with the CB and Displacement change required either to return
the boat to it's original lines, or prop it up to new lines. One could
also check whether the original lines were correct as far as
displacement and some reasonable CB is concerned.
Of course if no spreadsheet of weights and metacenters was ever done,
then it's hard to follow that audit trail, but in reality I don't think
that is probably how this will go. I certainly don't have enough info
to speculate on this particular boat, but if you take a general 40 foot
roomaran, it's probably picking up 1300 pounds an inch. So righting 5
inches of added imersion would be 6500 pounds of triming. Are we then
at the loaded lines or the light lines? It could be a 4 thousand pound
problem or a 14000 pound problem (sounds way high). A typical 40
footer would be 40 feet on the waterline not 36 and a bunch of other
differences to be sure. Either way, this kind of eror sorta calls for
removing the whole house and all the mechanicals and rebuilding in
foam. Or rebuilding the hulls completly. So the adjustments are
likely to be global and not related to the weight of individual
pieces. As I say this has nothing to do with DE, because 5 inches
lower than some point with the tail dragging can mean a lot of
different things, and I don't even know the planed displacement.
My neighbours 46 foot cat has plywood kitchen appointments and a pump
sink like a bottle of soap. Boats of this type need to be fitted out
very lightly.
--- "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
Problem is, that you need to know the weight of the single parts in
order to get the total weight and center of gravity. Once you have
that, you can find out where the boat would float.
Stefan
> This is the reason for model building.Right. FREE!ship model ... ;)
Problem is, that you need to know the weight of the single parts in
order to get the total weight and center of gravity. Once you have
that, you can find out where the boat would float.
Stefan
A bowel of Mediterranean meatballs? Is that some sort of Levantine haggis?
<g>
<g>
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:52:59 -0800, Peter wrote:
> ...
> PCB&Fs,over a piping hot bowel of Mediterranean meatballs on
> board L'Anemone, did allude to some sort of problem experienced
> with Fritzs' Double Eagle but I wasn't paying close enough attention
> since I was,at the time, not yet aware that she had already been
> launched!
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
No man is justified in doing evil on the ground of expediency. <Franklin
D. Roosevelt>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
more popular home built ones use system than can be variable in the
displacement they provide. Until quite a few hulls are built with
identical materials it's not always obvious what the displacement is,
or where the CB is located. This is the reason for model building.
However, the displacement of the hull in the kind of boat DE is
shouldn't be a mystery. There can be a huge difference in the weight
of materials used D-Fir ply being reasonably heavy. A friend of mine
used a heavier asian ply, meranti, on the lower course of his 46
footer, and it added 500 pounds. We got that straightened out. Part
of that was a cost calculation. That is the sort of place where one
just doesn't have the freedom to mess around.
One of the huge pitfalls in a multi is using the space. If you have a
20x30 deckhouse, it can't be outfittited with granite couter tops
etc... or all the people who could be squeezed aboard. But people do
tend to use available space.
None of this needs to be too mysterious. A Tri can be loaded to 50% of
it's displacement in, a cat to 100%, and a mono seems like 100% of a
base weight that includes ballast. Obviously these numbers depend on
some construction close to a type, but one should be able to keep some
control of the weight budget.
wrote:
>That is very possible. Some multis are built that way , as some of the
> Now, trying something like "lessons learnt" ...
>
> How feasible would it be, in such a big, and obviously risky project,
> to keep track of weights while building the boat?
>
> With one hull, even only partly built, one might have been able to see
> that actual weight overshot predictions considerably. It might have
> been possible to "just" raise the middle part by some inches....
>
> Just some thoughts ...
>
> Stefan
>
more popular home built ones use system than can be variable in the
displacement they provide. Until quite a few hulls are built with
identical materials it's not always obvious what the displacement is,
or where the CB is located. This is the reason for model building.
However, the displacement of the hull in the kind of boat DE is
shouldn't be a mystery. There can be a huge difference in the weight
of materials used D-Fir ply being reasonably heavy. A friend of mine
used a heavier asian ply, meranti, on the lower course of his 46
footer, and it added 500 pounds. We got that straightened out. Part
of that was a cost calculation. That is the sort of place where one
just doesn't have the freedom to mess around.
One of the huge pitfalls in a multi is using the space. If you have a
20x30 deckhouse, it can't be outfittited with granite couter tops
etc... or all the people who could be squeezed aboard. But people do
tend to use available space.
None of this needs to be too mysterious. A Tri can be loaded to 50% of
it's displacement in, a cat to 100%, and a mono seems like 100% of a
base weight that includes ballast. Obviously these numbers depend on
some construction close to a type, but one should be able to keep some
control of the weight budget.
> in a project the scale of a Double Eagle......it would take the windFritz, If I can give you encouragement. Adding displacment to those
> right out of my sails and steal my soul in the deal!
hulls is possible, with some work and expense. On smaller scales, I
have experienced similar 'moaning chair' moments, I assure you, they
do pass. Be careful, (if you can), it is possible to spend more time
in the 'moaning chair' feeling depressed than the time needed
constructing the actual fix.
As Phil Bolger probably has already told you, I guess that the fix
will take the form of deepening the hulls with new bottoms. (Like
with Bantam). Lots of work, true, but a finite amount of work which,
once accomplished, will be forgotten and become worth it.
Now, trying something like "lessons learnt" ...
How feasible would it be, in such a big, and obviously risky project,
to keep track of weights while building the boat?
With one hull, even only partly built, one might have been able to see
that actual weight overshot predictions considerably. It might have
been possible to "just" raise the middle part by some inches....
Just some thoughts ...
Stefan
How feasible would it be, in such a big, and obviously risky project,
to keep track of weights while building the boat?
With one hull, even only partly built, one might have been able to see
that actual weight overshot predictions considerably. It might have
been possible to "just" raise the middle part by some inches....
Just some thoughts ...
Stefan
> I wish I was located closer to Fritz(or him to me) as I wouldThis does need a sort of Pennsylvania barnraising approach to get
> love to throw in my two arms and tools to assist him with the
> daunting task of going for the fix in less then perfect conditions.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan........
>
things back on track.
The low trasom thing is pretty nasty, but usually pretty easily
fixed. The five inches of displacement is a whole other kettle of
fish. They really need to go through a massive weight reduction
program, or add a middle hull. From what I read this thing was 5
inches low on the day of the launch, no service load.
For a sailing cat these days one typically will have a beam for a 40
footer, of about 20-26 feet nearer the high end of 26. There was a
time when 1/3 the length was not uncomon, though it has proved
dangerous. However for a 40 foot motor sailer with a heavy
displacement, if designed for coastal water, it's possible. I think
it would make the boat hard to sell however.
I think there is a serious impact on possible resale when something
like this happens. Charter boats are massive payers in some markets,
and charter cats often sell for quite a lot of money, even without a
route attached. It's good news that she has paid already.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
Indeed, I sensed volumes of text between the lines of Fritzs'
reply.Events like what Fritz experienced are often thought of as
worst case scenarios by professional builders/yards and great pains
are taken to avoid such events. For a solo amateur builder involved
in a project the scale of a Double Eagle......it would take the wind
right out of my sails and steal my soul in the deal!
PCB&Fs,over a piping hot bowel of Mediterranean meatballs on
board L'Anemone, did allude to some sort of problem experienced
with Fritzs' Double Eagle but I wasn't paying close enough attention
since I was,at the time, not yet aware that she had already been
launched!
I wish I was located closer to Fritz(or him to me) as I would
love to throw in my two arms and tools to assist him with the
daunting task of going for the fix in less then perfect conditions.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan........
>nightmare
> I seem to have been left speechless after reading Fritz's report as
> probably have a lot of Bolgeristas. Cannot imagine a worse
> for a builder who has put the work Fritz has in very tryingconditions
> and a rather harsh climate.Nels,
Indeed, I sensed volumes of text between the lines of Fritzs'
reply.Events like what Fritz experienced are often thought of as
worst case scenarios by professional builders/yards and great pains
are taken to avoid such events. For a solo amateur builder involved
in a project the scale of a Double Eagle......it would take the wind
right out of my sails and steal my soul in the deal!
PCB&Fs,over a piping hot bowel of Mediterranean meatballs on
board L'Anemone, did allude to some sort of problem experienced
with Fritzs' Double Eagle but I wasn't paying close enough attention
since I was,at the time, not yet aware that she had already been
launched!
I wish I was located closer to Fritz(or him to me) as I would
love to throw in my two arms and tools to assist him with the
daunting task of going for the fix in less then perfect conditions.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan........
Widening the boat from 16 to 20 feet was PCB&F's recommendation I believe.
Every designer's (and builder) biggest nightmare hoping they got the
bootstripe right. It's possible PCB didn't calculate the weights
correctly, or that Fritz over built a bit or it was a bit of both. From
the sounds of things, I think PCB may have messed up a bit. It would be
interesting to hear his side of it.
Nels wrote:
Every designer's (and builder) biggest nightmare hoping they got the
bootstripe right. It's possible PCB didn't calculate the weights
correctly, or that Fritz over built a bit or it was a bit of both. From
the sounds of things, I think PCB may have messed up a bit. It would be
interesting to hear his side of it.
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Oops! Badly timed reply. I didn't see the side thread on the
>> problems until too late.
>>
>
> I seem to have been left speechless after reading Fritz's report as
> probably have a lot of Bolgeristas. Cannot imagine a worse nightmare
> for a builder who has put the work Fritz has in very trying conditions
> and a rather harsh climate. (Recall that his building shed caved in
> along the way as well.) Not to mention the challenge of obtaining
> materials in that part of the continent.
>
> Pure speculation on my part but what was the purpose of widening the
> boat by four feet, after the first hull was already constructed? Going
> from 16 to 20 feet beam is a pretty major re-design - something that
> PCB&F frown upon usually.
>
> The challenge of correcting the error must be daunting with a boat
> that big. It would have to be hauled out and raised high enough to
> work on the hulls. Or have a third small hull built around the
> centerboard spine to raise the bow? That would probably ruin it's
> tacking ability. Not a big hassle for using it for sightseeing I would
> guess. In a way it being used as a ferry for adventurers, kayakers and
> nature lovers.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...>
wrote:
probably have a lot of Bolgeristas. Cannot imagine a worse nightmare
for a builder who has put the work Fritz has in very trying conditions
and a rather harsh climate. (Recall that his building shed caved in
along the way as well.) Not to mention the challenge of obtaining
materials in that part of the continent.
Pure speculation on my part but what was the purpose of widening the
boat by four feet, after the first hull was already constructed? Going
from 16 to 20 feet beam is a pretty major re-design - something that
PCB&F frown upon usually.
The challenge of correcting the error must be daunting with a boat
that big. It would have to be hauled out and raised high enough to
work on the hulls. Or have a third small hull built around the
centerboard spine to raise the bow? That would probably ruin it's
tacking ability. Not a big hassle for using it for sightseeing I would
guess. In a way it being used as a ferry for adventurers, kayakers and
nature lovers.
Nels
wrote:
>I seem to have been left speechless after reading Fritz's report as
> Oops! Badly timed reply. I didn't see the side thread on the
> problems until too late.
probably have a lot of Bolgeristas. Cannot imagine a worse nightmare
for a builder who has put the work Fritz has in very trying conditions
and a rather harsh climate. (Recall that his building shed caved in
along the way as well.) Not to mention the challenge of obtaining
materials in that part of the continent.
Pure speculation on my part but what was the purpose of widening the
boat by four feet, after the first hull was already constructed? Going
from 16 to 20 feet beam is a pretty major re-design - something that
PCB&F frown upon usually.
The challenge of correcting the error must be daunting with a boat
that big. It would have to be hauled out and raised high enough to
work on the hulls. Or have a third small hull built around the
centerboard spine to raise the bow? That would probably ruin it's
tacking ability. Not a big hassle for using it for sightseeing I would
guess. In a way it being used as a ferry for adventurers, kayakers and
nature lovers.
Nels
Oops! Badly timed reply. I didn't see the side thread on the
problems until too late. As mentioned displacement and trim problems
are tough with multis. The tri I built was first drawn with a
transom that did not have adequate dispalcement. My designer, though
well established at the time did not realize that a table or weights
and metacenters of every since piece of the boat needed to be drawn
(or the craft otherwise modelled). He had a number of failures of
that sort.
When I said DE deals well with carrying loads I was refering to the
pounds displacement for inch immersion that are far greater with this
hull geometry than others. The geometry is like spiting a tepee
shape down the middle and joining the base as a centerline, with the
result that a much flatter wider shape results for the same surface
area. That said a 5" eror, wherever it lies, is collosal.
One problem with the wide flater thing is that you need much stronger
materials. Multis up to 40 feet can be built with hull skins of
around 3/8" ply. I was surprised to see the size of some of the
materials in in DE. For instance my neighbours 46 foot cat is mostly
1/2" ply. Also the kitchen is pretty impressive.
I certainly hope remedial action will be effective. My approach
would be to start a hull model in light ply right now and model any
changes before spending time and money on them. Modelling is the
stary eyed backyard builders best defence where multis are
concerned. And/or I would calculating the current CB and
displacement numbers so as to check the new changes against your
boat's current stance in the water. If you need any help with this
kind of stuff or want to CAD it, I would be glad to help, and I'm
sure there are others. The shape of this hull is simple enough and
could be easily inputed, then one can redraw waterlines at will to
reflect current displacement.
problems until too late. As mentioned displacement and trim problems
are tough with multis. The tri I built was first drawn with a
transom that did not have adequate dispalcement. My designer, though
well established at the time did not realize that a table or weights
and metacenters of every since piece of the boat needed to be drawn
(or the craft otherwise modelled). He had a number of failures of
that sort.
When I said DE deals well with carrying loads I was refering to the
pounds displacement for inch immersion that are far greater with this
hull geometry than others. The geometry is like spiting a tepee
shape down the middle and joining the base as a centerline, with the
result that a much flatter wider shape results for the same surface
area. That said a 5" eror, wherever it lies, is collosal.
One problem with the wide flater thing is that you need much stronger
materials. Multis up to 40 feet can be built with hull skins of
around 3/8" ply. I was surprised to see the size of some of the
materials in in DE. For instance my neighbours 46 foot cat is mostly
1/2" ply. Also the kitchen is pretty impressive.
I certainly hope remedial action will be effective. My approach
would be to start a hull model in light ply right now and model any
changes before spending time and money on them. Modelling is the
stary eyed backyard builders best defence where multis are
concerned. And/or I would calculating the current CB and
displacement numbers so as to check the new changes against your
boat's current stance in the water. If you need any help with this
kind of stuff or want to CAD it, I would be glad to help, and I'm
sure there are others. The shape of this hull is simple enough and
could be easily inputed, then one can redraw waterlines at will to
reflect current displacement.
Man I can't beleive it! It's been in the water all this time and it
just slipped by! I have been watching this thing since the earliest
moments of it's life. Congratulations to Fritz!!!
Anyone know if it can sail? I've always been skeptical, though it
should motor sail real well, and there will always be limits to how
well a boat can sail when it also has to operate in that cold a
climate, with a reasonable deck house.
Fritz's pearless workmanship is really evident in the fast brick page
he added, that is quite some piece of work!
Bolger has experimented in DE, and a few other drawings, with a really
interesting hull for a cat. It has similar skin drag to the Wharram
hulls that are so popular, and yet it can really carry a load. I would
love to see one in a Caribean charter without the house and a modern
rig (or rig of equivalent power).
just slipped by! I have been watching this thing since the earliest
moments of it's life. Congratulations to Fritz!!!
Anyone know if it can sail? I've always been skeptical, though it
should motor sail real well, and there will always be limits to how
well a boat can sail when it also has to operate in that cold a
climate, with a reasonable deck house.
Fritz's pearless workmanship is really evident in the fast brick page
he added, that is quite some piece of work!
Bolger has experimented in DE, and a few other drawings, with a really
interesting hull for a cat. It has similar skin drag to the Wharram
hulls that are so popular, and yet it can really carry a load. I would
love to see one in a Caribean charter without the house and a modern
rig (or rig of equivalent power).
I forget, I will ask.
HJ
Nels wrote:
HJ
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
>
>> with Fritz Funk my neighbor also a Bolgerista.
>>
>>http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
>>
>> HJ
>>
>>
> Did Storm Petrel ever get completed?
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
Nels
> with Fritz Funk my neighbor also a Bolgerista.Did Storm Petrel ever get completed?
>
>http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
>
> HJ
>
Nels
I would think that the glass expanse would preclude it from being an
open ocean boat. A boat this size is not something that you should
undertake lightly. I built my own 2300 square foot house here in Juneau
and I have visited Firtz when he was building the Double Eagle and
followed it closely on his web site. The house was easier. By the way
don't confuse Fritz K builder of the Double Eagle
http://www.thegreatsea.homestead.com/
with Fritz Funk my neighbor also a Bolgerista.
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
HJ
Waldo F. Odonahue wrote:
open ocean boat. A boat this size is not something that you should
undertake lightly. I built my own 2300 square foot house here in Juneau
and I have visited Firtz when he was building the Double Eagle and
followed it closely on his web site. The house was easier. By the way
don't confuse Fritz K builder of the Double Eagle
http://www.thegreatsea.homestead.com/
with Fritz Funk my neighbor also a Bolgerista.
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
HJ
Waldo F. Odonahue wrote:
> Still deciding on what live aboard (for 6 months at a time) boat to build to cruise up and down the west coast of Canada and the USA (and Mexico??). Your Double Eagle looks gorgeous! Could it function as a coastal trawler/cruiser - to deal with the Pacific coast?
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...> wrote:
Mexico??). Your Double Eagle looks gorgeous! Could it function as a
coastal trawler/cruiser - to deal with the Pacific coast?
No doubt it would function. However before I was going to commit that
degree of effort, time and money to build one (Not that my pockets are
deep enough)I would certainly make a trip up there and go out in it.
Which I plan to do anyway.
I would also consult with PCB&F as to their reccommendations.
My personal leanings would be towards a monohull due to some narrow
passages in some areas, cross currents, etc., and would therby want a
strong reliable motor - perhaps inboard diesel. Also marina fees and
storage might be lower with a monohull?
So I would really look at Fiji as my first choice.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Fiji%20Yawl/
Or The Alaska Motorsailer... the first file at this location.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/
Meantime I would really cut back on the amount of possesions I think I
need. It's amazing how small a space you need of you are a bachelor
compared to what a couple requires.
Which reminds me I have to go wash the dish before having supper. Hell
maybe just eat from the can;-)
Nels
>build to cruise up and down the west coast of Canada and the USA (and
> Still deciding on what live aboard (for 6 months at a time) boat to
Mexico??). Your Double Eagle looks gorgeous! Could it function as a
coastal trawler/cruiser - to deal with the Pacific coast?
No doubt it would function. However before I was going to commit that
degree of effort, time and money to build one (Not that my pockets are
deep enough)I would certainly make a trip up there and go out in it.
Which I plan to do anyway.
I would also consult with PCB&F as to their reccommendations.
My personal leanings would be towards a monohull due to some narrow
passages in some areas, cross currents, etc., and would therby want a
strong reliable motor - perhaps inboard diesel. Also marina fees and
storage might be lower with a monohull?
So I would really look at Fiji as my first choice.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Fiji%20Yawl/
Or The Alaska Motorsailer... the first file at this location.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/
Meantime I would really cut back on the amount of possesions I think I
need. It's amazing how small a space you need of you are a bachelor
compared to what a couple requires.
Which reminds me I have to go wash the dish before having supper. Hell
maybe just eat from the can;-)
Nels
The commitment required get a project like the Double Eagle into the
water is daunting. Having been to his building site and considering the
remoteness and the fact he is pretty much a solo operation I hold
Fritz's accomplishment in awe. Because of my observing whats involved by
seeing his work I have been able to restrain myself from taking on any
such project at this stage of my life. I just took a look at the grammar
in this post, English teacher is obviously not going to be in my future
HJ
pvanderwaart wrote:
water is daunting. Having been to his building site and considering the
remoteness and the fact he is pretty much a solo operation I hold
Fritz's accomplishment in awe. Because of my observing whats involved by
seeing his work I have been able to restrain myself from taking on any
such project at this stage of my life. I just took a look at the grammar
in this post, English teacher is obviously not going to be in my future
HJ
pvanderwaart wrote:
>> Peter
>>
>> Was launched this spring, I think Fritz has been doing some charters. I
>> have some pictures when she was in Juneau that I could send to you
>>
> off line.
>
>> HJ
>>
>
>
> Keep in mind that Peter L. has a deep need to believe that large,
> home-built Bolger boats do get launched eventually.
>
>
>
>
I should mention that this was before he got the sails on, I think he
was in Juneau getting CG inspections. It was more a social occasion so I
didn't really do a good photo essay. My wife REALLY liked the interior.
Once again, photos in Yahoo Groups-Bolger-Photos-Juneau Bolger
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/browse/4e57
HJ
Peter Lenihan wrote:
was in Juneau getting CG inspections. It was more a social occasion so I
didn't really do a good photo essay. My wife REALLY liked the interior.
Once again, photos in Yahoo Groups-Bolger-Photos-Juneau Bolger
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/browse/4e57
HJ
Peter Lenihan wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
>> Peter
>>
>> Was launched this spring, I think Fritz has been doing some
>>
> charters. I
>
>> have some pictures when she was in Juneau that I could send to you
>>
> off line.
>
>
> WOW! Where have I been to have missed this great good news?!
> If it is not too much a bother, the pictures would be a real treat
> Harry.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Petyer Lenihan
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
iceberg.Every once in awhile, a time related event will be celebrated
and I am drawn back into the present,with a nasty reminder that
sooooo much time has indeed slipped right by me. Yet, while fully
engaged in the rather enjoyable and rewarding task of"boatbuilding" I
truly have no sense of real time.My days are generally measured with
environmental cues.To wit; I know it is somewhere around mid-morning
the moment I hear the demented horn of the mobile cantine announcing
its' arrival and it is about high noon when it comes wailing through
the second time.By the third and final banshee screaming passage
through the yard it is around mid-afternoon.My day officially ends
when a member of the yard crew comes by to holler out,"ons ferme en
quinze minutes"(we close in 15 minutes).
In between the above benchmarks,there is of coarse "sanding
time","epoxy time","swearing time","clean-up-the-mess
time","beer/Port time","planning time" and last but not
least,"daydreaming time". None of these time signals register on a
clock or calender nor are they desired!
However,despite this relatively easy going Zen like structure I have
stumbled into,I do become haunted,at the oddest moments,with notions
akin to what I imagine a life sentence may feel like to a person who
only thought his crime was a small one.
Fortunately for me and my crew, I am a dyed in the wool romantic and
eternal optimist. I think too that I must have turned some important
corner in the maturation process for I now savour,passionately,each
days travailles while soaking up all the woody boatshop smells,the
ever changing angles of the suns penetrating dusty inside rays,the
heft,clunk and swizzel of the jack plane brought into play,the odd
rythmes picked out of the chaos of falling rain drops on the bowshed
skin and on and on, for I am now blessed with a keen sense that all
this will soon pass and fade into memory. I dearly do not want to
forget this most wonderful time of my life! I'm going to need to
recall ALL the details so that I can bore my future nursing home
neighbours to death should they become too boring themselves or else
just keep telling them dirty jokes so that their diapers have to be
changed more often by some sweet young nurse for me to terrorize with
grand tales of my wasted youth!( I'm keeping all fingers and toes
crossed that thiy will be so!)
Then again,all this may be nothing more then awareness of ones own
mortality.
I suppose I could go on and bore everyone here to death also,but we
are all too young for that stage yet,so I will stop :-)
Nevertheless, it remains a special treat for me to hear/read about
other successful project completions,boats or otherwise, and I can
only imagine how these successes have an unpredictable effect on
folks miles away.Indeed, such endings for some are the seed for
someone elses beginings.All wonderfully inspirational,what?
Gotta get back to some real craziness......work!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,class clown,doodler of boats,drinker of stiff
drinks,whittler of woods various and all around nut-job,from along
the shores of the dark St.Lawrence.........
wrote:
> Keep in mind that Peter L. has a deep need to believe that large,You, Sir Peter V., are merely tickling the surface of a veritable
> home-built Bolger boats do get launched eventually.
iceberg.Every once in awhile, a time related event will be celebrated
and I am drawn back into the present,with a nasty reminder that
sooooo much time has indeed slipped right by me. Yet, while fully
engaged in the rather enjoyable and rewarding task of"boatbuilding" I
truly have no sense of real time.My days are generally measured with
environmental cues.To wit; I know it is somewhere around mid-morning
the moment I hear the demented horn of the mobile cantine announcing
its' arrival and it is about high noon when it comes wailing through
the second time.By the third and final banshee screaming passage
through the yard it is around mid-afternoon.My day officially ends
when a member of the yard crew comes by to holler out,"ons ferme en
quinze minutes"(we close in 15 minutes).
In between the above benchmarks,there is of coarse "sanding
time","epoxy time","swearing time","clean-up-the-mess
time","beer/Port time","planning time" and last but not
least,"daydreaming time". None of these time signals register on a
clock or calender nor are they desired!
However,despite this relatively easy going Zen like structure I have
stumbled into,I do become haunted,at the oddest moments,with notions
akin to what I imagine a life sentence may feel like to a person who
only thought his crime was a small one.
Fortunately for me and my crew, I am a dyed in the wool romantic and
eternal optimist. I think too that I must have turned some important
corner in the maturation process for I now savour,passionately,each
days travailles while soaking up all the woody boatshop smells,the
ever changing angles of the suns penetrating dusty inside rays,the
heft,clunk and swizzel of the jack plane brought into play,the odd
rythmes picked out of the chaos of falling rain drops on the bowshed
skin and on and on, for I am now blessed with a keen sense that all
this will soon pass and fade into memory. I dearly do not want to
forget this most wonderful time of my life! I'm going to need to
recall ALL the details so that I can bore my future nursing home
neighbours to death should they become too boring themselves or else
just keep telling them dirty jokes so that their diapers have to be
changed more often by some sweet young nurse for me to terrorize with
grand tales of my wasted youth!( I'm keeping all fingers and toes
crossed that thiy will be so!)
Then again,all this may be nothing more then awareness of ones own
mortality.
I suppose I could go on and bore everyone here to death also,but we
are all too young for that stage yet,so I will stop :-)
Nevertheless, it remains a special treat for me to hear/read about
other successful project completions,boats or otherwise, and I can
only imagine how these successes have an unpredictable effect on
folks miles away.Indeed, such endings for some are the seed for
someone elses beginings.All wonderfully inspirational,what?
Gotta get back to some real craziness......work!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,class clown,doodler of boats,drinker of stiff
drinks,whittler of woods various and all around nut-job,from along
the shores of the dark St.Lawrence.........
Still deciding on what live aboard (for 6 months at a time) boat to build to cruise up and down the west coast of Canada and the USA (and Mexico??). Your Double Eagle looks gorgeous! Could it function as a coastal trawler/cruiser - to deal with the Pacific coast?
__________________________________________________
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
tip of Pleasant Island, which is on the background chart shown at the
above link.
You can "visit there" by opening google earth and typing Fritz's zip
code into the top left corner search box. In his case 99826
If you type in 32965 you can zoom over to Vero Beach:-)
If you type in V0E 2P0 (0's are zeros - we have wierd postal codes in
Canada.) It will take you to where I am right now. (Lower defenition
though) I am just across the bridge and if you zoom out a bit you will
see a triangle of green and I am in bottom right corner of that
"oasis" - the only area of the trailer park that has underground
sprinklers - necessary for small "cash crops" I believe:-D
Might be kind of neat if folks entered their zip/postal code at the
end of their mail if they are describing their sailing area. Or even
just to get an idea where they are located.
Going to Alaska is on my short-list. Also would be nice to meet the
Welshman, the Zeiglers and see the fleet of Bolger boats around there.
The folks who have the AMS 30. Nels Tomlinson who I get mistaken for:-)
Nels Arvidson V0E 2P0
Pritchard B.C. Canada
> The next question is, which among us is going to charter a Glacier BayIf you want to know where Gustavus is, it is just north of the western
> vacation cruise on The Great Sea?
>
>http://www.sailglacierbay.homestead.com/thegreatsea.html
tip of Pleasant Island, which is on the background chart shown at the
above link.
You can "visit there" by opening google earth and typing Fritz's zip
code into the top left corner search box. In his case 99826
If you type in 32965 you can zoom over to Vero Beach:-)
If you type in V0E 2P0 (0's are zeros - we have wierd postal codes in
Canada.) It will take you to where I am right now. (Lower defenition
though) I am just across the bridge and if you zoom out a bit you will
see a triangle of green and I am in bottom right corner of that
"oasis" - the only area of the trailer park that has underground
sprinklers - necessary for small "cash crops" I believe:-D
Might be kind of neat if folks entered their zip/postal code at the
end of their mail if they are describing their sailing area. Or even
just to get an idea where they are located.
Going to Alaska is on my short-list. Also would be nice to meet the
Welshman, the Zeiglers and see the fleet of Bolger boats around there.
The folks who have the AMS 30. Nels Tomlinson who I get mistaken for:-)
Nels Arvidson V0E 2P0
Pritchard B.C. Canada
On 11/16/06, Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
vacation cruise on The Great Sea?
http://www.sailglacierbay.homestead.com/thegreatsea.html
> Hi Nels,The next question is, which among us is going to charter a Glacier Bay
>
> I just saw your post refering to the yawl boat and your link to
> the DOUBLE EAGLE web page. When did Fritz launch? I must have missed
> it if it was posted here :-(
vacation cruise on The Great Sea?
http://www.sailglacierbay.homestead.com/thegreatsea.html
> Peteroff line.
>
> Was launched this spring, I think Fritz has been doing some charters. I
> have some pictures when she was in Juneau that I could send to you
>Keep in mind that Peter L. has a deep need to believe that large,
> HJ
home-built Bolger boats do get launched eventually.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
WOW! Where have I been to have missed this great good news?!
If it is not too much a bother, the pictures would be a real treat
Harry.
Thank you!
Petyer Lenihan
>charters. I
> Peter
>
> Was launched this spring, I think Fritz has been doing some
> have some pictures when she was in Juneau that I could send to youoff line.
WOW! Where have I been to have missed this great good news?!
If it is not too much a bother, the pictures would be a real treat
Harry.
Thank you!
Petyer Lenihan
Peter
Was launched this spring, I think Fritz has been doing some charters. I
have some pictures when she was in Juneau that I could send to you off line.
HJ
Peter Lenihan wrote:
Was launched this spring, I think Fritz has been doing some charters. I
have some pictures when she was in Juneau that I could send to you off line.
HJ
Peter Lenihan wrote:
> Hi Nels,
>
> I just saw your post refering to the yawl boat and your link to
> the DOUBLE EAGLE web page. When did Fritz launch? I must have missed
> it if it was posted here :-(
>
> Do you know whether or not pictures of the launch are available?
>
> Would really like to know how it all went and,if Fritz is reading
> this,how the boat performs.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
>
Hi Nels,
I just saw your post refering to the yawl boat and your link to
the DOUBLE EAGLE web page. When did Fritz launch? I must have missed
it if it was posted here :-(
Do you know whether or not pictures of the launch are available?
Would really like to know how it all went and,if Fritz is reading
this,how the boat performs.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I just saw your post refering to the yawl boat and your link to
the DOUBLE EAGLE web page. When did Fritz launch? I must have missed
it if it was posted here :-(
Do you know whether or not pictures of the launch are available?
Would really like to know how it all went and,if Fritz is reading
this,how the boat performs.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan