Re: [bolger] Re: Box Cutwater
Seven Stars a 50 ft aluminum sharpie that sits in Nome uncompleted has a
full box keel with a centerboard
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Seven%20Stars/
HJ
Mark Albanese wrote:
full box keel with a centerboard
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Seven%20Stars/
HJ
Mark Albanese wrote:
> Forgot this one, which does have a full length box keel and I do not
> see a board, but no doubt uses the motor to get very close to windward.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Alaska%
> 20Motorsailer%20%23610/
>
> Hasler has a board too.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Stefan Probst wrote:
>
>
>> Also, how well do boats with such a keel sail?
>> Can such a box keel replace leeboards, dagger boards, etc.?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Stefan
>>
>> mailto:bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Looking at the Power Yawlboat
http://hallman.org/bolger/583/583PowerYawlboat.gif
Would this be feasible to mount a sail, e.g. for waters were motoring
is not allowed, or to wait until a motor is available?
No need for much efficiency/speed.
Would it need a leeboard, or would the box keel be enough?
If I wanted to use it as a heavy displacement cruiser (party boat), it
might be useful (for lower power requirement) to increase the buoancy
(i.e. cross section) of the box keel in order to raise the main hull a
bit. Would it be better to increase the width of the box keel, or the
depth, or is both not a good idea? Draft is not the big issue.
Cheers,
Stefan
http://hallman.org/bolger/583/583PowerYawlboat.gif
Would this be feasible to mount a sail, e.g. for waters were motoring
is not allowed, or to wait until a motor is available?
No need for much efficiency/speed.
Would it need a leeboard, or would the box keel be enough?
If I wanted to use it as a heavy displacement cruiser (party boat), it
might be useful (for lower power requirement) to increase the buoancy
(i.e. cross section) of the box keel in order to raise the main hull a
bit. Would it be better to increase the width of the box keel, or the
depth, or is both not a good idea? Draft is not the big issue.
Cheers,
Stefan
Don,
The long yet shoal keels are generally said to limit pointing.
I had that clip on Flying Cloud myself until a hard drive crash. Do
you know where to find it now?
Mark
The long yet shoal keels are generally said to limit pointing.
I had that clip on Flying Cloud myself until a hard drive crash. Do
you know where to find it now?
Mark
On Nov 17, 2006, at 2:33 PM, donschultz8275 wrote:
>
>> There is an earlier box keel MS called "Small Motorsailer" at 22'
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/
>> And I also added a two page update to the above Alaska MS file.
>>
>> Nels
>
> SMS has a small rig, and the motor is intended to run full time.
>
> Also the Stevenson Projects Weekender uses a full length shallow
> external keel and a hard chine dory hull with no center or lee board.
> Originally the design used a retracting CB, but builders found it
> unecessary so it was dropped from the design.
>
> The Flying Cloud was a proof of concept boat to prove something re box
> keels, but it got its own design number. They had to drill holes in
> part of the keel flooding it to bring the boat down on its lines.
>
>
>
>
> There is an earlier box keel MS called "Small Motorsailer" at 22'SMS has a small rig, and the motor is intended to run full time.
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/
> And I also added a two page update to the above Alaska MS file.
>
> Nels
Also the Stevenson Projects Weekender uses a full length shallow
external keel and a hard chine dory hull with no center or lee board.
Originally the design used a retracting CB, but builders found it
unecessary so it was dropped from the design.
The Flying Cloud was a proof of concept boat to prove something re box
keels, but it got its own design number. They had to drill holes in
part of the keel flooding it to bring the boat down on its lines.
You can land on wet grass ice and mud with regular pontoons.
HJ
Nels wrote:
HJ
Nels wrote:
> Seems to me that the box cutwater could be added to any scow or garvey
> shape that has overhang forward and would improve performance and
> seaworthiness. Bolger has it normally rockered to match the overhang
> curvature and refers to it as a "matching ski shape" in the write-up
> for Inlet Runner.
>
> Kristine mentions this shape may make for a good pontoon design for
> float-planes. I'm thinking the "matching ski shape" might make it
> feasible to land on snow with them too! Maybe even wet grass!!
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/
And I also added a two page update to the above Alaska MS file.
Nels
>There is an earlier box keel MS called "Small Motorsailer" at 22'
> Forgot this one, which does have a full length box keel and I do not
> see a board, but no doubt uses the motor to get very close to windward.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Alaska%
> 20Motorsailer%20%23610/
>
> Hasler has a board too.
>
> Mark
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/
And I also added a two page update to the above Alaska MS file.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "delorypaul" <PAULDELORY@...> wrote:
As Mark mentioned in his post, Bolger had a Brick built to test using
a box keel. Called it Flying Cloud - it had quite a large gaff-rigged
sail.
There were no plans offered though. I think he felt it was a way too
complicated for anyone to actually build it. With box keel, no
leeboard was required but then in had a deeper draft, was way heavier,
and not so simple to build - which is the great advantage of Brick.
Hopefully someone can locate the article.
Nels
>Hi Paul,
> Nels, How do you think a Brick would sail withthe box cutwater added
> and how many, the bow only or two bow and stern. would the
> additional low make any difference or would the slippery shape of
> the double ender be more useful.
>
> Paul, BubbaP
As Mark mentioned in his post, Bolger had a Brick built to test using
a box keel. Called it Flying Cloud - it had quite a large gaff-rigged
sail.
There were no plans offered though. I think he felt it was a way too
complicated for anyone to actually build it. With box keel, no
leeboard was required but then in had a deeper draft, was way heavier,
and not so simple to build - which is the great advantage of Brick.
Hopefully someone can locate the article.
Nels
Nels, How do you think a Brick would sail withthe box cutwater added
and how many, the bow only or two bow and stern. would the
additional low make any difference or would the slippery shape of
the double ender be more useful.
Paul, BubbaP
and how many, the bow only or two bow and stern. would the
additional low make any difference or would the slippery shape of
the double ender be more useful.
Paul, BubbaP
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@>
wrote:
> >
> > Are there any hints in Bolger's writing about the useful/best
width of
> > the box keel?
> >
> > Also, how well do boats with such a keel sail?
> > Can such a box keel replace leeboards, dagger boards, etc.?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Stefan
>
> Here is PCB&F says about "Inlet Runner".
>
> "Forward the bilge panels are lifted, still at the 30 degree
deadrise
> angle for simplicity of assembly, high above oncoming crests. This
> shape would not have enough buoyancy to be sure of carrying the bow
> clear over a short wave, a fault common in many contemporary fast
> boats with exaggerated bow overhangs. To correct this we add the
box
> cutwater, sharp in plan view to cut the wave crest and rockered up
in
> profile to form a matching ski shape."
>
> So to me that is its main purpose. To improve the performance of a
> boxy hull, giving it some of the positive characteristics of a
complex
> shape, using flat plywood panels, and also helping the hull plane,
> track and rise to head seas better with less pounding "usually".
>
> Then there is the "box keel" which is a different animal than the
box
> cutwater. It helps prevent some leeway to some degree but usually
is
> used with a motor running in a displacement motorsailer to help
going
> to weather.
>
> Then there is the "step sharpie" that is somewhere in between! When
> planing it rides on a narrow sharpie hull underneath the wider top
> hull. I think that is what Bonefish can do so therefor can plane
with
> a smaller motor.
>
> And probably some other variations.
>
> I think a possible width formula could be guessed at from looking
at
> some Fast Brick plans. It also demonstates it still needs a
leeboard
> to sail, but would got get stopped as easily in a head sea or chop
as
> would the standard Brick, and as well would probably track and
motor
> considerably better.
>
> Nels
>
Forgot this one, which does have a full length box keel and I do not
see a board, but no doubt uses the motor to get very close to windward.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Alaska%
20Motorsailer%20%23610/
Hasler has a board too.
Mark
see a board, but no doubt uses the motor to get very close to windward.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Alaska%
20Motorsailer%20%23610/
Hasler has a board too.
Mark
On Nov 16, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Stefan Probst wrote:
>
> Also, how well do boats with such a keel sail?
> Can such a box keel replace leeboards, dagger boards, etc.?
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
>
> mailto:bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
Hi,
They have gone this way at least a couple of times. Still need the
board.
http://tinyurl.com/ymabws
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/AntiSpray/
Seven Stars may have a deeper box than above.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Seven%20Stars/
There's a Brick with deep, deep, ballasted keel called "Flying
Cloud," I think, but could not find it anywhere. Maybe Bruce has it
tucked away.
Mark
They have gone this way at least a couple of times. Still need the
board.
http://tinyurl.com/ymabws
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/AntiSpray/
Seven Stars may have a deeper box than above.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Seven%20Stars/
There's a Brick with deep, deep, ballasted keel called "Flying
Cloud," I think, but could not find it anywhere. Maybe Bruce has it
tucked away.
Mark
On Nov 16, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Stefan Probst wrote:
>
> Also, how well do boats with such a keel sail?
> Can such a box keel replace leeboards, dagger boards, etc.?
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...> wrote:
"Forward the bilge panels are lifted, still at the 30 degree deadrise
angle for simplicity of assembly, high above oncoming crests. This
shape would not have enough buoyancy to be sure of carrying the bow
clear over a short wave, a fault common in many contemporary fast
boats with exaggerated bow overhangs. To correct this we add the box
cutwater, sharp in plan view to cut the wave crest and rockered up in
profile to form a matching ski shape."
So to me that is its main purpose. To improve the performance of a
boxy hull, giving it some of the positive characteristics of a complex
shape, using flat plywood panels, and also helping the hull plane,
track and rise to head seas better with less pounding "usually".
Then there is the "box keel" which is a different animal than the box
cutwater. It helps prevent some leeway to some degree but usually is
used with a motor running in a displacement motorsailer to help going
to weather.
Then there is the "step sharpie" that is somewhere in between! When
planing it rides on a narrow sharpie hull underneath the wider top
hull. I think that is what Bonefish can do so therefor can plane with
a smaller motor.
And probably some other variations.
I think a possible width formula could be guessed at from looking at
some Fast Brick plans. It also demonstates it still needs a leeboard
to sail, but would got get stopped as easily in a head sea or chop as
would the standard Brick, and as well would probably track and motor
considerably better.
Nels
>Here is PCB&F says about "Inlet Runner".
> Are there any hints in Bolger's writing about the useful/best width of
> the box keel?
>
> Also, how well do boats with such a keel sail?
> Can such a box keel replace leeboards, dagger boards, etc.?
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
"Forward the bilge panels are lifted, still at the 30 degree deadrise
angle for simplicity of assembly, high above oncoming crests. This
shape would not have enough buoyancy to be sure of carrying the bow
clear over a short wave, a fault common in many contemporary fast
boats with exaggerated bow overhangs. To correct this we add the box
cutwater, sharp in plan view to cut the wave crest and rockered up in
profile to form a matching ski shape."
So to me that is its main purpose. To improve the performance of a
boxy hull, giving it some of the positive characteristics of a complex
shape, using flat plywood panels, and also helping the hull plane,
track and rise to head seas better with less pounding "usually".
Then there is the "box keel" which is a different animal than the box
cutwater. It helps prevent some leeway to some degree but usually is
used with a motor running in a displacement motorsailer to help going
to weather.
Then there is the "step sharpie" that is somewhere in between! When
planing it rides on a narrow sharpie hull underneath the wider top
hull. I think that is what Bonefish can do so therefor can plane with
a smaller motor.
And probably some other variations.
I think a possible width formula could be guessed at from looking at
some Fast Brick plans. It also demonstates it still needs a leeboard
to sail, but would got get stopped as easily in a head sea or chop as
would the standard Brick, and as well would probably track and motor
considerably better.
Nels
Are there any hints in Bolger's writing about the useful/best width of
the box keel?
Also, how well do boats with such a keel sail?
Can such a box keel replace leeboards, dagger boards, etc.?
Cheers,
Stefan
the box keel?
Also, how well do boats with such a keel sail?
Can such a box keel replace leeboards, dagger boards, etc.?
Cheers,
Stefan
Seems to me that the box cutwater could be added to any scow or garvey
shape that has overhang forward and would improve performance and
seaworthiness. Bolger has it normally rockered to match the overhang
curvature and refers to it as a "matching ski shape" in the write-up
for Inlet Runner.
Kristine mentions this shape may make for a good pontoon design for
float-planes. I'm thinking the "matching ski shape" might make it
feasible to land on snow with them too! Maybe even wet grass!!
Nels
shape that has overhang forward and would improve performance and
seaworthiness. Bolger has it normally rockered to match the overhang
curvature and refers to it as a "matching ski shape" in the write-up
for Inlet Runner.
Kristine mentions this shape may make for a good pontoon design for
float-planes. I'm thinking the "matching ski shape" might make it
feasible to land on snow with them too! Maybe even wet grass!!
Nels