Re: idea for overbuilt boat
Boatbuilder magazine had 3-4 pics and a 4 page write up on it. I'm looking for my copy
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Vandegrift" <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
Hi Guy,
You may wish to check out these chaps who apparently are doing a
sort of longitudinal study of their own along lines similar to what
you suggest:
http://www.floatingneutrinos.com/welcome_to_the_floating_neutrino.htm
In particular,read up on their boat called"Son of Toad
Hall".............
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
wrote:
> A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to apeople will want to
> conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchased
> second-hand. > Can we change the way boats are built so that more
> make them?and
>
> I was able to make this model by hand, almost without measurents,
> using only the cutting edge of pliers, with some sandpaper, glue,and
> a collection of identical sticks. We MIGHT be able to significantlylayer
> reduce the cost of a real hull with polyurethane glue, a double
> of low-quality boards, and no fiberglass. This will reduce thestore.
> temptation to use Dacron sailcloth, and possibly permit the
> boatbuilder to purchase everything at one large home improvement
Hi Guy,
You may wish to check out these chaps who apparently are doing a
sort of longitudinal study of their own along lines similar to what
you suggest:
http://www.floatingneutrinos.com/welcome_to_the_floating_neutrino.htm
In particular,read up on their boat called"Son of Toad
Hall".............
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I would comment that the Esther Mae is glass over ply, approaching 15 years
old, has traveled from Illinois to Florida (on her own bottom I am told),
done over 2000 miles in the last year, suffered a hole in the bottom the
size of a beer can, and is going strong. I have crawled to as many points
of the interior as possible and have not spotted any rot to the hull. The
cabin top, cockpit roof, forward hatch and aft hatch all are in need of some
work to delay the rot but other wise it is an extremely sound hull from
which I anticipate many more miles of enjoyment. In my case I think the
best maintenance is the ability to put her on the trailer and keep her in
the side yard, allowing her to dry out on occasion. I applaud the person
who built her, she is a well done craft and I am pleased to be the owner. I
hope to reduce the incidence of poking holes in the future.
Caloosarat
_____
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
howgegoboat
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:41 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
Plywood over frame if done prooperly will result in a solid boat see
George Buehler boats, maintaince is the key to any boat but esp a
wood boat, but a wood boat can easier be repaired than a glass boat
with osmosis/ cracking, and is in relm of most diy people.
Yours James
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Guy
Vandegrift" <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
wrote:
valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
old, has traveled from Illinois to Florida (on her own bottom I am told),
done over 2000 miles in the last year, suffered a hole in the bottom the
size of a beer can, and is going strong. I have crawled to as many points
of the interior as possible and have not spotted any rot to the hull. The
cabin top, cockpit roof, forward hatch and aft hatch all are in need of some
work to delay the rot but other wise it is an extremely sound hull from
which I anticipate many more miles of enjoyment. In my case I think the
best maintenance is the ability to put her on the trailer and keep her in
the side yard, allowing her to dry out on occasion. I applaud the person
who built her, she is a well done craft and I am pleased to be the owner. I
hope to reduce the incidence of poking holes in the future.
Caloosarat
_____
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
howgegoboat
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:41 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
Plywood over frame if done prooperly will result in a solid boat see
George Buehler boats, maintaince is the key to any boat but esp a
wood boat, but a wood boat can easier be repaired than a glass boat
with osmosis/ cracking, and is in relm of most diy people.
Yours James
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Guy
Vandegrift" <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
>I
> I got into boatbuilding three years ago because I am a professor
> looking for undergraduate student research. College undergraduates
> are hard to work with because they have no specialized training and
> stay on the project only briefly. Boatbuilding is ideal for them!
>
> Though I have no intention of making the student-research trivial,
> am willing to gamble on an idea that may not work. A "problem"does
> exist, and here it is:a
>
> A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to
> conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchasedboat.
> second-hand. I know this because you rarely see a homebuilt
>don't
> Though most yachts are purchased by very busy professionals, I
> think laziness or time-constraints explains it all. The largenumber
> of students who have asked to work with me indicates that there isa
> romantic interest in boatbuilding. So, I pose the followingquestion
> to this group:want to
>
> Can we change the way boats are built so that more people will
> make them?and
>
> I was able to make this model by hand, almost without measurents,
> using only the cutting edge of pliers, with some sandpaper, glue,and
> a collection of identical sticks. We MIGHT be able tosignificantly
> reduce the cost of a real hull with polyurethane glue, a doublelayer
> of low-quality boards, and no fiberglass. This will reduce thestore.
> temptation to use Dacron sailcloth, and possibly permit the
> boatbuilder to purchase everything at one large home improvement
>every
> The fact that the metheod is time-consuming does not bother me much
> because you will spend an hour building a few inches of the boat
> day, and then go on with your life till the glue dries. Perfectfor
> the novice amateur boatbuilder, who probably can't afford a boatthat
> anyway. A good definition of sanity is being happy just knowing
> you MIGHT be building a boat.POSSIBLE!
>
> BTW, I want the research to be honest -- SO BE AS CRITICAL AS
>Lenihan" <peterlenihan@>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Peter
wrote:
> >have
> > Hi Guy,
> >
> > I am having a difficult time see exactly what"problem" you
> > solved.The method called for on the plans for the AS-29 workslayers
> > remarkably well.The 1" thick bottom is composed of two 1/2"
> > stagered to avoid having to scarf the joints.These bottoms goplanked
> > together fast,are dimensionally stable and produce a watertight
> > finish.All of this for relatively little effort.
> > In some earlier Bolger designs which were originaly cross
> > (RED ZINGER,JESSIE COOPER to name a couple) Bolger now specifiesVanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@>
> > plywood.
> > Maybe I'm missing something but strip planking athwarthship
> > (sideways) appears like a big step backward in the labour saving
> > dept.,not to mention the vast number of added seams to fret over.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Peter Lenihan,big fan of plywood :-)
> >
> >
> > In bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, Guy
> > wrote:smaller
> > think I have solved a problem
> > > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> > problematical. The
> > > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to
> > boats.strips
> > > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> > believe is
> > > attached using epoxy.
> > >
> > > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the
> > goingat
> > > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link
> > ><http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> > > <http://faculty.
valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Guy Vandegrift
> > > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > > Valparaiso University
> > >
> >
>
Plywood over frame if done prooperly will result in a solid boat see
George Buehler boats, maintaince is the key to any boat but esp a
wood boat, but a wood boat can easier be repaired than a glass boat
with osmosis/ cracking, and is in relm of most diy people.
Yours James
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Vandegrift" <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
George Buehler boats, maintaince is the key to any boat but esp a
wood boat, but a wood boat can easier be repaired than a glass boat
with osmosis/ cracking, and is in relm of most diy people.
Yours James
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Vandegrift" <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
>I
> I got into boatbuilding three years ago because I am a professor
> looking for undergraduate student research. College undergraduates
> are hard to work with because they have no specialized training and
> stay on the project only briefly. Boatbuilding is ideal for them!
>
> Though I have no intention of making the student-research trivial,
> am willing to gamble on an idea that may not work. A "problem"does
> exist, and here it is:a
>
> A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to
> conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchasedboat.
> second-hand. I know this because you rarely see a homebuilt
>don't
> Though most yachts are purchased by very busy professionals, I
> think laziness or time-constraints explains it all. The largenumber
> of students who have asked to work with me indicates that there isa
> romantic interest in boatbuilding. So, I pose the followingquestion
> to this group:want to
>
> Can we change the way boats are built so that more people will
> make them?and
>
> I was able to make this model by hand, almost without measurents,
> using only the cutting edge of pliers, with some sandpaper, glue,and
> a collection of identical sticks. We MIGHT be able tosignificantly
> reduce the cost of a real hull with polyurethane glue, a doublelayer
> of low-quality boards, and no fiberglass. This will reduce thestore.
> temptation to use Dacron sailcloth, and possibly permit the
> boatbuilder to purchase everything at one large home improvement
>every
> The fact that the metheod is time-consuming does not bother me much
> because you will spend an hour building a few inches of the boat
> day, and then go on with your life till the glue dries. Perfectfor
> the novice amateur boatbuilder, who probably can't afford a boatthat
> anyway. A good definition of sanity is being happy just knowing
> you MIGHT be building a boat.POSSIBLE!
>
> BTW, I want the research to be honest -- SO BE AS CRITICAL AS
>wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@>
> >have
> > Hi Guy,
> >
> > I am having a difficult time see exactly what"problem" you
> > solved.The method called for on the plans for the AS-29 workslayers
> > remarkably well.The 1" thick bottom is composed of two 1/2"
> > stagered to avoid having to scarf the joints.These bottoms goplanked
> > together fast,are dimensionally stable and produce a watertight
> > finish.All of this for relatively little effort.
> > In some earlier Bolger designs which were originaly cross
> > (RED ZINGER,JESSIE COOPER to name a couple) Bolger now specifiessmaller
> > plywood.
> > Maybe I'm missing something but strip planking athwarthship
> > (sideways) appears like a big step backward in the labour saving
> > dept.,not to mention the vast number of added seams to fret over.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Peter Lenihan,big fan of plywood :-)
> >
> >
> > Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@>
> > wrote:
> > think I have solved a problem
> > > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> > problematical. The
> > > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to
> > boats.strips
> > > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> > believe is
> > > attached using epoxy.
> > >
> > > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the
> > goingat
> > > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link
> > >
> > > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Guy Vandegrift
> > > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > > Valparaiso University
> > >
> >
>
Read Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series a few times and you'll double your vocabulary. (I did.) (Hint: Get "A Sea of Words" by Dean King, John B. Hattendorf, J. Worth Estes at the same time you order "Master and Commander.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Vandegrift
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
<snip>
And thanks for the new word -- imprimatur. I use Google when I see a word I don't know because it gives me a sense of how the word is used.
But I use a little dictionary when I write because if the word is not
there, I might rethink using it. Your use of a word I never
encountered was entirely appropriate, of course.
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Vandegrift" <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
cost of materials. The biggest is perhaps finding a space large enough
and secure enough, in which to build it. This may knock about 80% of
the dreamers out of the picture right off the top. Even many
professionals.
Another financial question is how to transport a larger boat to the
water once it is built and how much will it cost to be able to keep it
there and maintain it? Then how far do you have to go to get to it?
Boats have to be kept in a safe secure environment and that costs money.
Then there is the cost of all the fixtures that cannot be built at
home. And anything that is not wood and is exposed to a marine
environment seems to cost about 4 times as much as the same thing used
ashore.
So I think older second-hand boats being handed down to lower income
people is much the same as with other vehicles and to some extent
housing. The boat is already fully equiped usually, and the
maintenance and storage costs already known prior to purchase.
Almost all these limitations can be overcome by building small boats
and not larger ones. Interesting is the fact also, that the smaller
the boat, the more it gets used. Even if a person owns a larger one.
Also the hardware and sails etc., can usually be of quite cheap
materials (available at the same store as the wood.) that would not be
practical or strong enough for a larger boat.
Considering a design that is light and stowable, perhaps foldable, can
be towed behind a bicycle, carried on a roof rack, stored in a closet
and is cheap and easy to build would create a great deal of interest
perhaps?
There are such commercial designs, such as Klepper, Folbot, Pakcanoe
etc., but they are very expensive. Then there is the super lightweight
line of geodesic designs by Monfort but they are not compact to store.
http://gaboats.com/boats/
All of these are "skin on frame" using some kind of man-made outer
skin which is probably cheaper per sqare foot than any kind of wood.
Nels
wrote:
> A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to aBuilding a larger boat has other financial limitations than simply the
> conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchased
> second-hand. I know this because you rarely see a homebuilt boat.
cost of materials. The biggest is perhaps finding a space large enough
and secure enough, in which to build it. This may knock about 80% of
the dreamers out of the picture right off the top. Even many
professionals.
Another financial question is how to transport a larger boat to the
water once it is built and how much will it cost to be able to keep it
there and maintain it? Then how far do you have to go to get to it?
Boats have to be kept in a safe secure environment and that costs money.
Then there is the cost of all the fixtures that cannot be built at
home. And anything that is not wood and is exposed to a marine
environment seems to cost about 4 times as much as the same thing used
ashore.
So I think older second-hand boats being handed down to lower income
people is much the same as with other vehicles and to some extent
housing. The boat is already fully equiped usually, and the
maintenance and storage costs already known prior to purchase.
Almost all these limitations can be overcome by building small boats
and not larger ones. Interesting is the fact also, that the smaller
the boat, the more it gets used. Even if a person owns a larger one.
Also the hardware and sails etc., can usually be of quite cheap
materials (available at the same store as the wood.) that would not be
practical or strong enough for a larger boat.
Considering a design that is light and stowable, perhaps foldable, can
be towed behind a bicycle, carried on a roof rack, stored in a closet
and is cheap and easy to build would create a great deal of interest
perhaps?
There are such commercial designs, such as Klepper, Folbot, Pakcanoe
etc., but they are very expensive. Then there is the super lightweight
line of geodesic designs by Monfort but they are not compact to store.
http://gaboats.com/boats/
All of these are "skin on frame" using some kind of man-made outer
skin which is probably cheaper per sqare foot than any kind of wood.
Nels
I wasn't much concerned about safety until about a year into my foray
into boatbuilding with students, when someone informed me that a boat
built by a local high school killed all on board when it sank in Lake
Michigan. I have a number of on-going projects. One involved a paper
toy boat and was used to verify a simple formula for the stiffness of
a bolger box. This transverse-planked sharpie just happened to be
what this group of students wanted to do.
I do worry about people taking my idea so seriously that they actually
build a big boat with it. At most, the next transverse-planked boat
should be a dinghy in sheltered waters. With dinghies, I think I can
get the college imprimatur by strictly enforcing a lifejacket rule
(and learning about any other rules we need to follow).
Most obvious wild ideas for dinghies have already been tried. What is
so tantalizing about big boat construction is that the thinking tends
to be very conservative, and for good reason. The slow academic pace
of student research is ideal for investigating wild boatbuilding ideas
because we are expected to think and analyze more than just "do".
And thanks for the new word -- imprimatur. I use Google when I see a
word I don't know because it gives me a sense of how the word is used.
But I use a little dictionary when I write because if the word is not
there, I might rethink using it. Your use of a word I never
encountered was entirely appropriate, of course.
Guy
http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
into boatbuilding with students, when someone informed me that a boat
built by a local high school killed all on board when it sank in Lake
Michigan. I have a number of on-going projects. One involved a paper
toy boat and was used to verify a simple formula for the stiffness of
a bolger box. This transverse-planked sharpie just happened to be
what this group of students wanted to do.
I do worry about people taking my idea so seriously that they actually
build a big boat with it. At most, the next transverse-planked boat
should be a dinghy in sheltered waters. With dinghies, I think I can
get the college imprimatur by strictly enforcing a lifejacket rule
(and learning about any other rules we need to follow).
Most obvious wild ideas for dinghies have already been tried. What is
so tantalizing about big boat construction is that the thinking tends
to be very conservative, and for good reason. The slow academic pace
of student research is ideal for investigating wild boatbuilding ideas
because we are expected to think and analyze more than just "do".
And thanks for the new word -- imprimatur. I use Google when I see a
word I don't know because it gives me a sense of how the word is used.
But I use a little dictionary when I write because if the word is not
there, I might rethink using it. Your use of a word I never
encountered was entirely appropriate, of course.
Guy
http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> Several reactions.
>
> You might visit the various discussions of cardboard boats in your
search. Low cost. Minimal investment. Limited durability. It's a
popular competitive activity and it offers lots of opportunities for
creative thought.
>
> If your findings come out with the imprimatur of your college, you
could get people killed. The sea is quite unforgiving and the
designing and building of a seaworthy, seakindly, durable hull is not
a trivial exercise.
>
> Perhaps the fact that "you don't see many homebuilt boats" stems
partly from the fact that many are indistinguishable from factory
built ones. One doesn't see many concrete hulls either; the good ones
look like the plastic or wooden hulls around them. (Heresy for this
group, sorry.)
>
> Building a boat is an enjoyable activity, encompassing as it does: a
dream, real problems to be solved, and tangible results. Much better
than video games or crossword puzzles. If one is realistic, one does
not build in the hopes of getting afloat for less money.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Guy Vandegrift
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:51 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
>
>
> I got into boatbuilding three years ago because I am a professor
> looking for undergraduate student research. College undergraduates
> are hard to work with because they have no specialized training and
> stay on the project only briefly. Boatbuilding is ideal for them!
>
> Though I have no intention of making the student-research trivial, I
> am willing to gamble on an idea that may not work. A "problem" does
> exist, and here it is:
>
> A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to a
> conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchased
> second-hand. I know this because you rarely see a homebuilt boat.
>
> Though most yachts are purchased by very busy professionals, I don't
> think laziness or time-constraints explains it all. The large number
> of students who have asked to work with me indicates that there is a
> romantic interest in boatbuilding. So, I pose the following question
> to this group:
>
> Can we change the way boats are built so that more people will want to
> make them?
>
> I was able to make this model by hand, almost without measurents, and
> using only the cutting edge of pliers, with some sandpaper, glue, and
> a collection of identical sticks. We MIGHT be able to significantly
> reduce the cost of a real hull with polyurethane glue, a double layer
> of low-quality boards, and no fiberglass. This will reduce the
> temptation to use Dacron sailcloth, and possibly permit the
> boatbuilder to purchase everything at one large home improvement
store.
>
> The fact that the metheod is time-consuming does not bother me much
> because you will spend an hour building a few inches of the boat every
> day, and then go on with your life till the glue dries. Perfect for
> the novice amateur boatbuilder, who probably can't afford a boat
> anyway. A good definition of sanity is being happy just knowing that
> you MIGHT be building a boat.
>
> BTW, I want the research to be honest -- SO BE AS CRITICAL AS
POSSIBLE!
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Guy,
> >
> > I am having a difficult time see exactly what"problem" you have
> > solved.The method called for on the plans for the AS-29 works
> > remarkably well.The 1" thick bottom is composed of two 1/2" layers
> > stagered to avoid having to scarf the joints.These bottoms go
> > together fast,are dimensionally stable and produce a watertight
> > finish.All of this for relatively little effort.
> > In some earlier Bolger designs which were originaly cross planked
> > (RED ZINGER,JESSIE COOPER to name a couple) Bolger now specifies
> > plywood.
> > Maybe I'm missing something but strip planking athwarthship
> > (sideways) appears like a big step backward in the labour saving
> > dept.,not to mention the vast number of added seams to fret over.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Peter Lenihan,big fan of plywood :-)
> >
> >
> > Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@>
> > wrote:
> > think I have solved a problem
> > > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> > problematical. The
> > > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
> > boats.
> > > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> > believe is
> > > attached using epoxy.
> > >
> > > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips
> > going
> > > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> > >
> > > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Guy Vandegrift
> > > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > > Valparaiso University
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Several reactions.
You might visit the various discussions of cardboard boats in your search. Low cost. Minimal investment. Limited durability. It's a popular competitive activity and it offers lots of opportunities for creative thought.
If your findings come out with the imprimatur of your college, you could get people killed. The sea is quite unforgiving and the designing and building of a seaworthy, seakindly, durable hull is not a trivial exercise.
Perhaps the fact that "you don't see many homebuilt boats" stems partly from the fact that many are indistinguishable from factory built ones. One doesn't see many concrete hulls either; the good ones look like the plastic or wooden hulls around them. (Heresy for this group, sorry.)
Building a boat is an enjoyable activity, encompassing as it does: a dream, real problems to be solved, and tangible results. Much better than video games or crossword puzzles. If one is realistic, one does not build in the hopes of getting afloat for less money.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
You might visit the various discussions of cardboard boats in your search. Low cost. Minimal investment. Limited durability. It's a popular competitive activity and it offers lots of opportunities for creative thought.
If your findings come out with the imprimatur of your college, you could get people killed. The sea is quite unforgiving and the designing and building of a seaworthy, seakindly, durable hull is not a trivial exercise.
Perhaps the fact that "you don't see many homebuilt boats" stems partly from the fact that many are indistinguishable from factory built ones. One doesn't see many concrete hulls either; the good ones look like the plastic or wooden hulls around them. (Heresy for this group, sorry.)
Building a boat is an enjoyable activity, encompassing as it does: a dream, real problems to be solved, and tangible results. Much better than video games or crossword puzzles. If one is realistic, one does not build in the hopes of getting afloat for less money.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Vandegrift
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:51 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
I got into boatbuilding three years ago because I am a professor
looking for undergraduate student research. College undergraduates
are hard to work with because they have no specialized training and
stay on the project only briefly. Boatbuilding is ideal for them!
Though I have no intention of making the student-research trivial, I
am willing to gamble on an idea that may not work. A "problem" does
exist, and here it is:
A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to a
conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchased
second-hand. I know this because you rarely see a homebuilt boat.
Though most yachts are purchased by very busy professionals, I don't
think laziness or time-constraints explains it all. The large number
of students who have asked to work with me indicates that there is a
romantic interest in boatbuilding. So, I pose the following question
to this group:
Can we change the way boats are built so that more people will want to
make them?
I was able to make this model by hand, almost without measurents, and
using only the cutting edge of pliers, with some sandpaper, glue, and
a collection of identical sticks. We MIGHT be able to significantly
reduce the cost of a real hull with polyurethane glue, a double layer
of low-quality boards, and no fiberglass. This will reduce the
temptation to use Dacron sailcloth, and possibly permit the
boatbuilder to purchase everything at one large home improvement store.
The fact that the metheod is time-consuming does not bother me much
because you will spend an hour building a few inches of the boat every
day, and then go on with your life till the glue dries. Perfect for
the novice amateur boatbuilder, who probably can't afford a boat
anyway. A good definition of sanity is being happy just knowing that
you MIGHT be building a boat.
BTW, I want the research to be honest -- SO BE AS CRITICAL AS POSSIBLE!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guy,
>
> I am having a difficult time see exactly what"problem" you have
> solved.The method called for on the plans for the AS-29 works
> remarkably well.The 1" thick bottom is composed of two 1/2" layers
> stagered to avoid having to scarf the joints.These bottoms go
> together fast,are dimensionally stable and produce a watertight
> finish.All of this for relatively little effort.
> In some earlier Bolger designs which were originaly cross planked
> (RED ZINGER,JESSIE COOPER to name a couple) Bolger now specifies
> plywood.
> Maybe I'm missing something but strip planking athwarthship
> (sideways) appears like a big step backward in the labour saving
> dept.,not to mention the vast number of added seams to fret over.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan,big fan of plywood :-)
>
>
> Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@>
> wrote:
> think I have solved a problem
> > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> problematical. The
> > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
> boats.
> > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> believe is
> > attached using epoxy.
> >
> > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips
> going
> > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> >
> > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Guy Vandegrift
> > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > Valparaiso University
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Can we change the way boats are built so that more people will want toBolger and Payson asked and answered this same question 25 years ago
> make them?
and coined the phrase "Instant Boats". Using plywood instead of
sticks, gives the advantage that plywood prefers to bend only in
sweeping curves, ideal for making sweeping flowlines so good in boats.
I got into boatbuilding three years ago because I am a professor
looking for undergraduate student research. College undergraduates
are hard to work with because they have no specialized training and
stay on the project only briefly. Boatbuilding is ideal for them!
Though I have no intention of making the student-research trivial, I
am willing to gamble on an idea that may not work. A "problem" does
exist, and here it is:
A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to a
conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchased
second-hand. I know this because you rarely see a homebuilt boat.
Though most yachts are purchased by very busy professionals, I don't
think laziness or time-constraints explains it all. The large number
of students who have asked to work with me indicates that there is a
romantic interest in boatbuilding. So, I pose the following question
to this group:
Can we change the way boats are built so that more people will want to
make them?
I was able to make this model by hand, almost without measurents, and
using only the cutting edge of pliers, with some sandpaper, glue, and
a collection of identical sticks. We MIGHT be able to significantly
reduce the cost of a real hull with polyurethane glue, a double layer
of low-quality boards, and no fiberglass. This will reduce the
temptation to use Dacron sailcloth, and possibly permit the
boatbuilder to purchase everything at one large home improvement store.
The fact that the metheod is time-consuming does not bother me much
because you will spend an hour building a few inches of the boat every
day, and then go on with your life till the glue dries. Perfect for
the novice amateur boatbuilder, who probably can't afford a boat
anyway. A good definition of sanity is being happy just knowing that
you MIGHT be building a boat.
BTW, I want the research to be honest -- SO BE AS CRITICAL AS POSSIBLE!
looking for undergraduate student research. College undergraduates
are hard to work with because they have no specialized training and
stay on the project only briefly. Boatbuilding is ideal for them!
Though I have no intention of making the student-research trivial, I
am willing to gamble on an idea that may not work. A "problem" does
exist, and here it is:
A medium to large homebuilt boat is not a practical alternative to a
conventional production sailboat that can be easily purchased
second-hand. I know this because you rarely see a homebuilt boat.
Though most yachts are purchased by very busy professionals, I don't
think laziness or time-constraints explains it all. The large number
of students who have asked to work with me indicates that there is a
romantic interest in boatbuilding. So, I pose the following question
to this group:
Can we change the way boats are built so that more people will want to
make them?
I was able to make this model by hand, almost without measurents, and
using only the cutting edge of pliers, with some sandpaper, glue, and
a collection of identical sticks. We MIGHT be able to significantly
reduce the cost of a real hull with polyurethane glue, a double layer
of low-quality boards, and no fiberglass. This will reduce the
temptation to use Dacron sailcloth, and possibly permit the
boatbuilder to purchase everything at one large home improvement store.
The fact that the metheod is time-consuming does not bother me much
because you will spend an hour building a few inches of the boat every
day, and then go on with your life till the glue dries. Perfect for
the novice amateur boatbuilder, who probably can't afford a boat
anyway. A good definition of sanity is being happy just knowing that
you MIGHT be building a boat.
BTW, I want the research to be honest -- SO BE AS CRITICAL AS POSSIBLE!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guy,
>
> I am having a difficult time see exactly what"problem" you have
> solved.The method called for on the plans for the AS-29 works
> remarkably well.The 1" thick bottom is composed of two 1/2" layers
> stagered to avoid having to scarf the joints.These bottoms go
> together fast,are dimensionally stable and produce a watertight
> finish.All of this for relatively little effort.
> In some earlier Bolger designs which were originaly cross planked
> (RED ZINGER,JESSIE COOPER to name a couple) Bolger now specifies
> plywood.
> Maybe I'm missing something but strip planking athwarthship
> (sideways) appears like a big step backward in the labour saving
> dept.,not to mention the vast number of added seams to fret over.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan,big fan of plywood :-)
>
>
> Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@>
> wrote:
> think I have solved a problem
> > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> problematical. The
> > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
> boats.
> > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> believe is
> > attached using epoxy.
> >
> > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips
> going
> > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> >
> > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Guy Vandegrift
> > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > Valparaiso University
> >
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
observation with my own home built boats that if you leave the piece
of wood bent around a form long enough,the darned thing takes on
that bend and will remain so with a minimum of effort. I am reminded
of the time I had to lay in the mahogany chine log on my Micro but
had slightly increased the scantlings to 3/4" X 1 1/2" instead of
3/4" square.This was done upside down on a building jig and that
chine log had one hell of a compound curve to her. After a couple of
days messing with weights and boiling water soaked rags I finally
got it to sit into its' pocket in the bow transom with clamps and
all. I never thought I would get it there but I did. After a few
days, I had reason to release the chine log for final epoxying
(remember I had been using soaking rags to assist with the wild
bending and had to let things dry before glueing) and once the
clamps et al had been removed,didn't that crazy chine log just sit
there like it grew that way!
Anyway,laminating might help too in some applications,like fancy
curved tillers which must stand alone without bracing but for most
boat structures,things eventually all get locked and held together
long enough for the wood to release its' tension and relax a
little,while smelling the roses :-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,no stranger to relaxing....nope!
>line?
> In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight
> I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates ormore
> springback becomes negligible.I know nothing about "spring back formula" but it has been my
>
> HJ
observation with my own home built boats that if you leave the piece
of wood bent around a form long enough,the darned thing takes on
that bend and will remain so with a minimum of effort. I am reminded
of the time I had to lay in the mahogany chine log on my Micro but
had slightly increased the scantlings to 3/4" X 1 1/2" instead of
3/4" square.This was done upside down on a building jig and that
chine log had one hell of a compound curve to her. After a couple of
days messing with weights and boiling water soaked rags I finally
got it to sit into its' pocket in the bow transom with clamps and
all. I never thought I would get it there but I did. After a few
days, I had reason to release the chine log for final epoxying
(remember I had been using soaking rags to assist with the wild
bending and had to let things dry before glueing) and once the
clamps et al had been removed,didn't that crazy chine log just sit
there like it grew that way!
Anyway,laminating might help too in some applications,like fancy
curved tillers which must stand alone without bracing but for most
boat structures,things eventually all get locked and held together
long enough for the wood to release its' tension and relax a
little,while smelling the roses :-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,no stranger to relaxing....nope!
Hi Guy,
I am having a difficult time see exactly what"problem" you have
solved.The method called for on the plans for the AS-29 works
remarkably well.The 1" thick bottom is composed of two 1/2" layers
stagered to avoid having to scarf the joints.These bottoms go
together fast,are dimensionally stable and produce a watertight
finish.All of this for relatively little effort.
In some earlier Bolger designs which were originaly cross planked
(RED ZINGER,JESSIE COOPER to name a couple) Bolger now specifies
plywood.
Maybe I'm missing something but strip planking athwarthship
(sideways) appears like a big step backward in the labour saving
dept.,not to mention the vast number of added seams to fret over.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,big fan of plywood :-)
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
think I have solved a problem
I am having a difficult time see exactly what"problem" you have
solved.The method called for on the plans for the AS-29 works
remarkably well.The 1" thick bottom is composed of two 1/2" layers
stagered to avoid having to scarf the joints.These bottoms go
together fast,are dimensionally stable and produce a watertight
finish.All of this for relatively little effort.
In some earlier Bolger designs which were originaly cross planked
(RED ZINGER,JESSIE COOPER to name a couple) Bolger now specifies
plywood.
Maybe I'm missing something but strip planking athwarthship
(sideways) appears like a big step backward in the labour saving
dept.,not to mention the vast number of added seams to fret over.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,big fan of plywood :-)
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
think I have solved a problem
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29problematical. The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smallerboats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which Ibelieve is
> attached using epoxy.going
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
I'm using Quatro Pro, myself. It takes .xls files nicely with some small loss of formatting for pretty.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Curtis
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
On Nov 27, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Guy Vandegrift wrote:
> I can't wait to see that spreadsheet, but will have to wait till a bug
> is fixed that makes Microsoft Office products freeze up on me.
You may want to try www.openoffice.org. It's free, it replaces
microsoft Office quite nicely, and you don't end up financially
supporting the worlds largest criminal monopolist. I have used it in
my business for years and interoperate with Office users every day
without issues.
I have often even used it to "fix" office for people. They get a
quick fix, and I get a satisfied customer.
Good luck with whatever you do!
Chris Curtis
>
> On the toy boat, I added extra longitudinal stringers, rather
> sloppily, since I hadn't planned for them. My understanding of the
> need for such structures was a result of this group's discussion about
> swelling planks. Now I think I know why traditional strip planked
> boats have such beefy ribs, and so many of them. It's as if the
> planks plus the ribs form a sort of homemade plywood.
>
> I contacted Phil Bolger about my project and he responded (snail mail
> both ways). He believes in epoxy, which is more expensive than the PL
> premium construction glue you can get at home improvement stores. So
> now I am wondering how thick the glue needs to be. Are there any
> formulas for that?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
> >
> > That is the same formula that I gave. The spreadsheet cited gives
> correction factors for the type of wood and for one's experimental
> results.
> >
> > (One of my pet peeves is the waste of computer time devoted to using
> exotic forms where a simple multiply will do. x**2 is often two finite
> series. Worse is 2.0*x where x+x gives the same result and uses one
> machine cycle instead of 32. If you write 2*x you throw in additional
> cycles to convert the fixed point value 2 to a floating point form for
> the multiply. Yggggh! No wonder we have to keep buying bigger and
> faster computers.) (Rant Over.)
> >
> > Roger
> > derbyrm@...
> >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Guy Vandegrift
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 12:03 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
> >
> >
> > I believe the formula is:
> > y = x/n^2
> > where y is the distance that the wood "springs back" towards the
> > original position, and x is the initial distance that the laminated
> > structure had been deflected. The number of laminates is n, and "^2"
> > means "squared".
> >
> > Be warned that this formula is very approximate, for a number of
> reasons:
> >
> > 1) I'm pretty sure the assumption was made that the wood is
> perfectly
> > elastic. When I bend a single craft stick purchased from my local
> > Dollar Store (where else?), I found that it was permanently bent.
> Wood
> > is not elastic.
> >
> > 2) I observed MORE spring back than predicted by the formula, while
> > one would expect inelastic wood to yield less springback. Perhaps
> the
> > polyurethane glue is so soft that it "creeps".
> >
> > 3) I doubt that the formula is valid for large deflections, i.e.,
> when
> > x is not much smaller than the length of the stick.
> >
> > 4) Evidence for the inexactness of this formula is found in an
> > alternative formula that I failed to reference in my web search:
> >
> > Rf = Ri*n/(n-1)
> >
> > Here Ri is the initial radius of curvature (before springback)
> and Rf
> > is the final radius of curvature. The two formulas agree only for
> > large n. Don't count on this formula because the only reference I
> can
> > find appears to contain a misprint. But see:
> >http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/12530.html?1144177464
> >
> > Guy
> >http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hah! Google is great!
> > >
> > >
> >
>http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/
> _Spreadsheet_Calculation_Program.html
> > shows:
> > >
> > > springback = rise/n*n where n is the number of plies.
> > >
> > > Note that for five plies, the springback is 4% of the rise. Pretty
> > trivial.
> > >
> > > Now I'm surprised that it doesn't matter how long the form is.
> > >
> > > The URL / spreadsheet gives a bunch of other equations. If you
> load
> > it, look for the tabs at the bottom to select which calculation your
> > looking at.
> > >
> > > Roger
> > > derbyrm@
> > >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: derbyrm
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
> > >
> > >
> > > Somewhere I have a table showing springback as a function of the
> > number of laminations. No relation to the thickness of each ply,
> which
> > surprised me. This early in the morning, I don't even know where to
> > start looking for it, but maybe someone else has it handy.
> > >
> > > Roger
> > > derbyrm@
> > >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Harry James
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:31 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
> > >
> > > In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight
> > line?
> > > I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or
> more
> > > springback becomes negligible.
> > >
> > > HJ
> > >
> > > Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> > > > I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved
> > a problem
> > > > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> > problematical. The
> > > > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
> > boats.
> > > > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> > believe is
> > > > attached using epoxy.
> > > >
> > > > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the
> > strips going
> > > > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> > > >
> > > > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > > Guy Vandegrift
> > > > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > > > Valparaiso University
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
Chris Curtis
Sandpoint Computers
Office 208-265-1608
Cell 208-610-3062
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Nov 27, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Guy Vandegrift wrote:
microsoft Office quite nicely, and you don't end up financially
supporting the worlds largest criminal monopolist. I have used it in
my business for years and interoperate with Office users every day
without issues.
I have often even used it to "fix" office for people. They get a
quick fix, and I get a satisfied customer.
Good luck with whatever you do!
Chris Curtis
Sandpoint Computers
Office 208-265-1608
Cell 208-610-3062
> I can't wait to see that spreadsheet, but will have to wait till a bugYou may want to try www.openoffice.org. It's free, it replaces
> is fixed that makes Microsoft Office products freeze up on me.
microsoft Office quite nicely, and you don't end up financially
supporting the worlds largest criminal monopolist. I have used it in
my business for years and interoperate with Office users every day
without issues.
I have often even used it to "fix" office for people. They get a
quick fix, and I get a satisfied customer.
Good luck with whatever you do!
Chris Curtis
>Chris Curtis
> On the toy boat, I added extra longitudinal stringers, rather
> sloppily, since I hadn't planned for them. My understanding of the
> need for such structures was a result of this group's discussion about
> swelling planks. Now I think I know why traditional strip planked
> boats have such beefy ribs, and so many of them. It's as if the
> planks plus the ribs form a sort of homemade plywood.
>
> I contacted Phil Bolger about my project and he responded (snail mail
> both ways). He believes in epoxy, which is more expensive than the PL
> premium construction glue you can get at home improvement stores. So
> now I am wondering how thick the glue needs to be. Are there any
> formulas for that?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
> >
> > That is the same formula that I gave. The spreadsheet cited gives
> correction factors for the type of wood and for one's experimental
> results.
> >
> > (One of my pet peeves is the waste of computer time devoted to using
> exotic forms where a simple multiply will do. x**2 is often two finite
> series. Worse is 2.0*x where x+x gives the same result and uses one
> machine cycle instead of 32. If you write 2*x you throw in additional
> cycles to convert the fixed point value 2 to a floating point form for
> the multiply. Yggggh! No wonder we have to keep buying bigger and
> faster computers.) (Rant Over.)
> >
> > Roger
> > derbyrm@...
> >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Guy Vandegrift
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 12:03 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
> >
> >
> > I believe the formula is:
> > y = x/n^2
> > where y is the distance that the wood "springs back" towards the
> > original position, and x is the initial distance that the laminated
> > structure had been deflected. The number of laminates is n, and "^2"
> > means "squared".
> >
> > Be warned that this formula is very approximate, for a number of
> reasons:
> >
> > 1) I'm pretty sure the assumption was made that the wood is
> perfectly
> > elastic. When I bend a single craft stick purchased from my local
> > Dollar Store (where else?), I found that it was permanently bent.
> Wood
> > is not elastic.
> >
> > 2) I observed MORE spring back than predicted by the formula, while
> > one would expect inelastic wood to yield less springback. Perhaps
> the
> > polyurethane glue is so soft that it "creeps".
> >
> > 3) I doubt that the formula is valid for large deflections, i.e.,
> when
> > x is not much smaller than the length of the stick.
> >
> > 4) Evidence for the inexactness of this formula is found in an
> > alternative formula that I failed to reference in my web search:
> >
> > Rf = Ri*n/(n-1)
> >
> > Here Ri is the initial radius of curvature (before springback)
> and Rf
> > is the final radius of curvature. The two formulas agree only for
> > large n. Don't count on this formula because the only reference I
> can
> > find appears to contain a misprint. But see:
> >http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/12530.html?1144177464
> >
> > Guy
> >http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hah! Google is great!
> > >
> > >
> >
>http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/
> _Spreadsheet_Calculation_Program.html
> > shows:
> > >
> > > springback = rise/n*n where n is the number of plies.
> > >
> > > Note that for five plies, the springback is 4% of the rise. Pretty
> > trivial.
> > >
> > > Now I'm surprised that it doesn't matter how long the form is.
> > >
> > > The URL / spreadsheet gives a bunch of other equations. If you
> load
> > it, look for the tabs at the bottom to select which calculation your
> > looking at.
> > >
> > > Roger
> > > derbyrm@
> > >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: derbyrm
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
> > >
> > >
> > > Somewhere I have a table showing springback as a function of the
> > number of laminations. No relation to the thickness of each ply,
> which
> > surprised me. This early in the morning, I don't even know where to
> > start looking for it, but maybe someone else has it handy.
> > >
> > > Roger
> > > derbyrm@
> > >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Harry James
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:31 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
> > >
> > > In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight
> > line?
> > > I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or
> more
> > > springback becomes negligible.
> > >
> > > HJ
> > >
> > > Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> > > > I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved
> > a problem
> > > > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> > problematical. The
> > > > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
> > boats.
> > > > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> > believe is
> > > > attached using epoxy.
> > > >
> > > > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the
> > strips going
> > > > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> > > >
> > > > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > > Guy Vandegrift
> > > > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > > > Valparaiso University
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
Sandpoint Computers
Office 208-265-1608
Cell 208-610-3062
I can't wait to see that spreadsheet, but will have to wait till a bug
is fixed that makes Microsoft Office products freeze up on me.
On the toy boat, I added extra longitudinal stringers, rather
sloppily, since I hadn't planned for them. My understanding of the
need for such structures was a result of this group's discussion about
swelling planks. Now I think I know why traditional strip planked
boats have such beefy ribs, and so many of them. It's as if the
planks plus the ribs form a sort of homemade plywood.
I contacted Phil Bolger about my project and he responded (snail mail
both ways). He believes in epoxy, which is more expensive than the PL
premium construction glue you can get at home improvement stores. So
now I am wondering how thick the glue needs to be. Are there any
formulas for that?
is fixed that makes Microsoft Office products freeze up on me.
On the toy boat, I added extra longitudinal stringers, rather
sloppily, since I hadn't planned for them. My understanding of the
need for such structures was a result of this group's discussion about
swelling planks. Now I think I know why traditional strip planked
boats have such beefy ribs, and so many of them. It's as if the
planks plus the ribs form a sort of homemade plywood.
I contacted Phil Bolger about my project and he responded (snail mail
both ways). He believes in epoxy, which is more expensive than the PL
premium construction glue you can get at home improvement stores. So
now I am wondering how thick the glue needs to be. Are there any
formulas for that?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> That is the same formula that I gave. The spreadsheet cited gives
correction factors for the type of wood and for one's experimental
results.
>
> (One of my pet peeves is the waste of computer time devoted to using
exotic forms where a simple multiply will do. x**2 is often two finite
series. Worse is 2.0*x where x+x gives the same result and uses one
machine cycle instead of 32. If you write 2*x you throw in additional
cycles to convert the fixed point value 2 to a floating point form for
the multiply. Yggggh! No wonder we have to keep buying bigger and
faster computers.) (Rant Over.)
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Guy Vandegrift
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 12:03 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
>
>
> I believe the formula is:
> y = x/n^2
> where y is the distance that the wood "springs back" towards the
> original position, and x is the initial distance that the laminated
> structure had been deflected. The number of laminates is n, and "^2"
> means "squared".
>
> Be warned that this formula is very approximate, for a number of
reasons:
>
> 1) I'm pretty sure the assumption was made that the wood is perfectly
> elastic. When I bend a single craft stick purchased from my local
> Dollar Store (where else?), I found that it was permanently bent. Wood
> is not elastic.
>
> 2) I observed MORE spring back than predicted by the formula, while
> one would expect inelastic wood to yield less springback. Perhaps the
> polyurethane glue is so soft that it "creeps".
>
> 3) I doubt that the formula is valid for large deflections, i.e., when
> x is not much smaller than the length of the stick.
>
> 4) Evidence for the inexactness of this formula is found in an
> alternative formula that I failed to reference in my web search:
>
> Rf = Ri*n/(n-1)
>
> Here Ri is the initial radius of curvature (before springback) and Rf
> is the final radius of curvature. The two formulas agree only for
> large n. Don't count on this formula because the only reference I can
> find appears to contain a misprint. But see:
>http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/12530.html?1144177464
>
> Guy
>http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
> >
> > Hah! Google is great!
> >
> >
>
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/_Spreadsheet_Calculation_Program.html
> shows:
> >
> > springback = rise/n*n where n is the number of plies.
> >
> > Note that for five plies, the springback is 4% of the rise. Pretty
> trivial.
> >
> > Now I'm surprised that it doesn't matter how long the form is.
> >
> > The URL / spreadsheet gives a bunch of other equations. If you load
> it, look for the tabs at the bottom to select which calculation your
> looking at.
> >
> > Roger
> > derbyrm@
> >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: derbyrm
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
> >
> >
> > Somewhere I have a table showing springback as a function of the
> number of laminations. No relation to the thickness of each ply, which
> surprised me. This early in the morning, I don't even know where to
> start looking for it, but maybe someone else has it handy.
> >
> > Roger
> > derbyrm@
> >http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Harry James
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
> >
> > In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight
> line?
> > I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or more
> > springback becomes negligible.
> >
> > HJ
> >
> > Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> > > I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved
> a problem
> > > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
> problematical. The
> > > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
> boats.
> > > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> believe is
> > > attached using epoxy.
> > >
> > > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the
> strips going
> > > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> > >
> > > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Guy Vandegrift
> > > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@
> > > Valparaiso University
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
That is the same formula that I gave. The spreadsheet cited gives correction factors for the type of wood and for one's experimental results.
(One of my pet peeves is the waste of computer time devoted to using exotic forms where a simple multiply will do. x**2 is often two finite series. Worse is 2.0*x where x+x gives the same result and uses one machine cycle instead of 32. If you write 2*x you throw in additional cycles to convert the fixed point value 2 to a floating point form for the multiply. Yggggh! No wonder we have to keep buying bigger and faster computers.) (Rant Over.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
(One of my pet peeves is the waste of computer time devoted to using exotic forms where a simple multiply will do. x**2 is often two finite series. Worse is 2.0*x where x+x gives the same result and uses one machine cycle instead of 32. If you write 2*x you throw in additional cycles to convert the fixed point value 2 to a floating point form for the multiply. Yggggh! No wonder we have to keep buying bigger and faster computers.) (Rant Over.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Vandegrift
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: idea for overbuilt boat
I believe the formula is:
y = x/n^2
where y is the distance that the wood "springs back" towards the
original position, and x is the initial distance that the laminated
structure had been deflected. The number of laminates is n, and "^2"
means "squared".
Be warned that this formula is very approximate, for a number of reasons:
1) I'm pretty sure the assumption was made that the wood is perfectly
elastic. When I bend a single craft stick purchased from my local
Dollar Store (where else?), I found that it was permanently bent. Wood
is not elastic.
2) I observed MORE spring back than predicted by the formula, while
one would expect inelastic wood to yield less springback. Perhaps the
polyurethane glue is so soft that it "creeps".
3) I doubt that the formula is valid for large deflections, i.e., when
x is not much smaller than the length of the stick.
4) Evidence for the inexactness of this formula is found in an
alternative formula that I failed to reference in my web search:
Rf = Ri*n/(n-1)
Here Ri is the initial radius of curvature (before springback) and Rf
is the final radius of curvature. The two formulas agree only for
large n. Don't count on this formula because the only reference I can
find appears to contain a misprint. But see:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/12530.html?1144177464
Guy
http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> Hah! Google is great!
>
>
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/_Spreadsheet_Calculation_Program.html
shows:
>
> springback = rise/n*n where n is the number of plies.
>
> Note that for five plies, the springback is 4% of the rise. Pretty
trivial.
>
> Now I'm surprised that it doesn't matter how long the form is.
>
> The URL / spreadsheet gives a bunch of other equations. If you load
it, look for the tabs at the bottom to select which calculation your
looking at.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: derbyrm
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
>
>
> Somewhere I have a table showing springback as a function of the
number of laminations. No relation to the thickness of each ply, which
surprised me. This early in the morning, I don't even know where to
start looking for it, but maybe someone else has it handy.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Harry James
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
>
> In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight
line?
> I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or more
> springback becomes negligible.
>
> HJ
>
> Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> > I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved
a problem
> > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
problematical. The
> > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
boats.
> > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
believe is
> > attached using epoxy.
> >
> > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the
strips going
> > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> >
> > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Guy Vandegrift
> > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@...
> > Valparaiso University
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I believe the formula is:
y = x/n^2
where y is the distance that the wood "springs back" towards the
original position, and x is the initial distance that the laminated
structure had been deflected. The number of laminates is n, and "^2"
means "squared".
Be warned that this formula is very approximate, for a number of reasons:
1) I'm pretty sure the assumption was made that the wood is perfectly
elastic. When I bend a single craft stick purchased from my local
Dollar Store (where else?), I found that it was permanently bent. Wood
is not elastic.
2) I observed MORE spring back than predicted by the formula, while
one would expect inelastic wood to yield less springback. Perhaps the
polyurethane glue is so soft that it "creeps".
3) I doubt that the formula is valid for large deflections, i.e., when
x is not much smaller than the length of the stick.
4) Evidence for the inexactness of this formula is found in an
alternative formula that I failed to reference in my web search:
Rf = Ri*n/(n-1)
Here Ri is the initial radius of curvature (before springback) and Rf
is the final radius of curvature. The two formulas agree only for
large n. Don't count on this formula because the only reference I can
find appears to contain a misprint. But see:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/12530.html?1144177464
Guy
http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
y = x/n^2
where y is the distance that the wood "springs back" towards the
original position, and x is the initial distance that the laminated
structure had been deflected. The number of laminates is n, and "^2"
means "squared".
Be warned that this formula is very approximate, for a number of reasons:
1) I'm pretty sure the assumption was made that the wood is perfectly
elastic. When I bend a single craft stick purchased from my local
Dollar Store (where else?), I found that it was permanently bent. Wood
is not elastic.
2) I observed MORE spring back than predicted by the formula, while
one would expect inelastic wood to yield less springback. Perhaps the
polyurethane glue is so soft that it "creeps".
3) I doubt that the formula is valid for large deflections, i.e., when
x is not much smaller than the length of the stick.
4) Evidence for the inexactness of this formula is found in an
alternative formula that I failed to reference in my web search:
Rf = Ri*n/(n-1)
Here Ri is the initial radius of curvature (before springback) and Rf
is the final radius of curvature. The two formulas agree only for
large n. Don't count on this formula because the only reference I can
find appears to contain a misprint. But see:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/12530.html?1144177464
Guy
http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> Hah! Google is great!
>
>
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/_Spreadsheet_Calculation_Program.html
shows:
>
> springback = rise/n*n where n is the number of plies.
>
> Note that for five plies, the springback is 4% of the rise. Pretty
trivial.
>
> Now I'm surprised that it doesn't matter how long the form is.
>
> The URL / spreadsheet gives a bunch of other equations. If you load
it, look for the tabs at the bottom to select which calculation your
looking at.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: derbyrm
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
>
>
> Somewhere I have a table showing springback as a function of the
number of laminations. No relation to the thickness of each ply, which
surprised me. This early in the morning, I don't even know where to
start looking for it, but maybe someone else has it handy.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Harry James
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
>
> In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight
line?
> I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or more
> springback becomes negligible.
>
> HJ
>
> Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> > I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved
a problem
> > that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29
problematical. The
> > problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller
boats.
> > One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
believe is
> > attached using epoxy.
> >
> > I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the
strips going
> > sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
> >
> > <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Guy Vandegrift
> > E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@...
> > Valparaiso University
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Hah! Google is great!
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/_Spreadsheet_Calculation_Program.htmlshows:
springback = rise/n*n where n is the number of plies.
Note that for five plies, the springback is 4% of the rise. Pretty trivial.
Now I'm surprised that it doesn't matter how long the form is.
The URL / spreadsheet gives a bunch of other equations. If you load it, look for the tabs at the bottom to select which calculation your looking at.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/_Spreadsheet_Calculation_Program.htmlshows:
springback = rise/n*n where n is the number of plies.
Note that for five plies, the springback is 4% of the rise. Pretty trivial.
Now I'm surprised that it doesn't matter how long the form is.
The URL / spreadsheet gives a bunch of other equations. If you load it, look for the tabs at the bottom to select which calculation your looking at.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: derbyrm
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
Somewhere I have a table showing springback as a function of the number of laminations. No relation to the thickness of each ply, which surprised me. This early in the morning, I don't even know where to start looking for it, but maybe someone else has it handy.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry James
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight line?
I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or more
springback becomes negligible.
HJ
Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a problem
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I believe is
> attached using epoxy.
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail:Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Somewhere I have a table showing springback as a function of the number of laminations. No relation to the thickness of each ply, which surprised me. This early in the morning, I don't even know where to start looking for it, but maybe someone else has it handy.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry James
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight line?
I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or more
springback becomes negligible.
HJ
Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a problem
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I believe is
> attached using epoxy.
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail:Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In the spring back formula is x the inches of bend from a straight line?
I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or more
springback becomes negligible.
HJ
Guy VanDegrift wrote:
I have read once as a rule of thumb, if you use 5 laminates or more
springback becomes negligible.
HJ
Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a problem
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I believe is
> attached using epoxy.
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail:Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
>
When we built the Klondike replica .
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Klondike/Klondike.htm
it was out of green spruce and it shrunk a lot even after it was caulked. It was filled with water at Lake Bennet and did not leak at all once it soaked up.
HJ
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Klondike/Klondike.htm
it was out of green spruce and it shrunk a lot even after it was caulked. It was filled with water at Lake Bennet and did not leak at all once it soaked up.
HJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...>
Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 5:04 am
Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
> I've seen any number of work boats with one or more sump pumps
> running
> in the bilges while the planking swells. Usually ones that have
> been out
> on ground, for sale for some time though. Clyde
>
> Christopher Wetherill wrote:
>
> > For a rowboat it is fine to do this. I used to do the same thing
> with> my Sea Bright skiff. For a 40 foot oak work boat with a 455
> cu in v-8
> > it is inconvenient under the best scenario. Most lift operators take
> > exception to hanging a 6 long ton boat in their slings for
> several days,
> > to say nothing of the damage done to components mounted below
> the water
> > line.
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
> > derbyrm wrote:
> > > The classic wooden row boat is cross planked with the saw
> blade used
> > as a spacer between planks. On completion, the boat is sunk, the
> > planks swell, and then it's watertight for the season. (or so
> I've
> > been told)
> > >
> > > snip..
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
I've seen any number of work boats with one or more sump pumps running
in the bilges while the planking swells. Usually ones that have been out
on ground, for sale for some time though. Clyde
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
in the bilges while the planking swells. Usually ones that have been out
on ground, for sale for some time though. Clyde
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> For a rowboat it is fine to do this. I used to do the same thing with[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> my Sea Bright skiff. For a 40 foot oak work boat with a 455 cu in v-8
> it is inconvenient under the best scenario. Most lift operators take
> exception to hanging a 6 long ton boat in their slings for several days,
> to say nothing of the damage done to components mounted below the water
> line.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> derbyrm wrote:
> > The classic wooden row boat is cross planked with the saw blade used
> as a spacer between planks. On completion, the boat is sunk, the
> planks swell, and then it's watertight for the season. (or so I've
> been told)
> >
> > snip..
> >
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
Sorry to hear about your loss. This is certainly a whole different
level of boating than I am familar with but I can see where
overbuilding is a consideration as opposed to a light trailer boat
like I am interested in.
Bolger designed a boat called "Abbondanza 24" (Design #652). It is a
lot like Inlet Runner, except it has a taller deck forward to give
more sleeping space below and uses a 40 hp diesel. It's supposed to be
trailerable with a full-sized truck if I recall. Sitting on it's keel
the hull would clear the wheel wells on a car hauler trailer I would
guess. My neighbour who is a welder, has a 24 foot gooseneck that
would be perfect.
It is built instant boat fashion using steel plates. It has a box
keel, a flat bottom and a sort of half-moon scallop shape that blends
the bottom to the keel on either side at the bow.
Can't locate where I read about it though. It was in an issue of MAIB
I am quite certain.
Anybody recall?
Nels
>Dear Krissie,
> Well I have lost friends in the fishing industry do to
> a wood boat that was not overbuilt. The owner wanted
> to keep her light for speed reasons is my
> understanding.
>
Sorry to hear about your loss. This is certainly a whole different
level of boating than I am familar with but I can see where
overbuilding is a consideration as opposed to a light trailer boat
like I am interested in.
Bolger designed a boat called "Abbondanza 24" (Design #652). It is a
lot like Inlet Runner, except it has a taller deck forward to give
more sleeping space below and uses a 40 hp diesel. It's supposed to be
trailerable with a full-sized truck if I recall. Sitting on it's keel
the hull would clear the wheel wells on a car hauler trailer I would
guess. My neighbour who is a welder, has a 24 foot gooseneck that
would be perfect.
It is built instant boat fashion using steel plates. It has a box
keel, a flat bottom and a sort of half-moon scallop shape that blends
the bottom to the keel on either side at the bow.
Can't locate where I read about it though. It was in an issue of MAIB
I am quite certain.
Anybody recall?
Nels
For a rowboat it is fine to do this. I used to do the same thing with
my Sea Bright skiff. For a 40 foot oak work boat with a 455 cu in v-8
it is inconvenient under the best scenario. Most lift operators take
exception to hanging a 6 long ton boat in their slings for several days,
to say nothing of the damage done to components mounted below the water
line.
V/R
Chris
derbyrm wrote:
my Sea Bright skiff. For a 40 foot oak work boat with a 455 cu in v-8
it is inconvenient under the best scenario. Most lift operators take
exception to hanging a 6 long ton boat in their slings for several days,
to say nothing of the damage done to components mounted below the water
line.
V/R
Chris
derbyrm wrote:
> The classic wooden row boat is cross planked with the saw blade used as a spacer between planks. On completion, the boat is sunk, the planks swell, and then it's watertight for the season. (or so I've been told)
>
> snip..
>
Well I have lost friends in the fishing industry do to
a wood boat that was not overbuilt. The owner wanted
to keep her light for speed reasons is my
understanding.
The boat was fast for her power but the boat was lost
along with all hands in a summer blow in Southeast
Alaska. It was the first fishing season for the boat
too.
My feelings are I would rather have thicker hull
planking below waterline and know they are not going
to flex in heavy weather then save a few bucks at the
gas dock. Also a bit heaver bottom helps with the
OOPSes in shallow water and on the beach.
Being a bit over built is a good thing when it's below
the guards, and is likely to take the brunt of any
impact.
Blessings Krissie
Sponsored Link
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a wood boat that was not overbuilt. The owner wanted
to keep her light for speed reasons is my
understanding.
The boat was fast for her power but the boat was lost
along with all hands in a summer blow in Southeast
Alaska. It was the first fishing season for the boat
too.
My feelings are I would rather have thicker hull
planking below waterline and know they are not going
to flex in heavy weather then save a few bucks at the
gas dock. Also a bit heaver bottom helps with the
OOPSes in shallow water and on the beach.
Being a bit over built is a good thing when it's below
the guards, and is likely to take the brunt of any
impact.
Blessings Krissie
> I think Bolgers latest update for AS29 calls for the____________________________________________________________________________________
> installation of a
> steel plate on the bottom - which makes it already
> overbuilt.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates near 39yr lows.
$420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment!
www.LowerMyBills.com/lre
The classic wooden row boat is cross planked with the saw blade used as a spacer between planks. On completion, the boat is sunk, the planks swell, and then it's watertight for the season. (or so I've been told)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Wetherill
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] idea for overbuilt boat
This is how work boats on the Chesapeake are built. They can not be
taken out of the water for more than about three days or the planks
shrink and separate, leaving a wooden bar screen in place of a bottom.
V/R
Chris
Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a problem
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I believe is
> attached using epoxy.
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail:Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
Jesse Cooper and (I think) Skillygally. The last comment I saw from
him was to the effect that that the plywood was less trouble in the
long run, though more expensive and more work.
wrote:
>Bolger has specified cross planking a lot of boats, including the
Jesse Cooper and (I think) Skillygally. The last comment I saw from
him was to the effect that that the plywood was less trouble in the
long run, though more expensive and more work.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>
wrote:
steel plate on the bottom - which makes it already overbuilt.
Nels
wrote:
>I think Bolgers latest update for AS29 calls for the installation of a
> You've been putting a good deal of effort into this, Guy, and that's
> always good. But there are a few problems, some of which others have
> mentioned.
>
> Your method would be much more labor-intensive than using plywood.
> Also, timber swells across the grain and so the planks try to push
> each other off the bottom. (In fact this is one of the potential
> problems of all strip-planked boats). Bolger himself has moved from
> cross-planking to plywood.
>
> I've never tried it, but it seems to me the easiest way to laminate a
> plywood bottom using epoxy would be to use drywall screws. Unscrewing
> them after the glue sets would be easy enough if you heated each
> screw with a soldering iron, to soften the epoxy around the screw.
> The glue hardens again once it cools.
>
> Howard
>
steel plate on the bottom - which makes it already overbuilt.
Nels
You've been putting a good deal of effort into this, Guy, and that's
always good. But there are a few problems, some of which others have
mentioned.
Your method would be much more labor-intensive than using plywood.
Also, timber swells across the grain and so the planks try to push
each other off the bottom. (In fact this is one of the potential
problems of all strip-planked boats). Bolger himself has moved from
cross-planking to plywood.
I've never tried it, but it seems to me the easiest way to laminate a
plywood bottom using epoxy would be to use drywall screws. Unscrewing
them after the glue sets would be easy enough if you heated each
screw with a soldering iron, to soften the epoxy around the screw.
The glue hardens again once it cools.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
always good. But there are a few problems, some of which others have
mentioned.
Your method would be much more labor-intensive than using plywood.
Also, timber swells across the grain and so the planks try to push
each other off the bottom. (In fact this is one of the potential
problems of all strip-planked boats). Bolger himself has moved from
cross-planking to plywood.
I've never tried it, but it seems to me the easiest way to laminate a
plywood bottom using epoxy would be to use drywall screws. Unscrewing
them after the glue sets would be easy enough if you heated each
screw with a soldering iron, to soften the epoxy around the screw.
The glue hardens again once it cools.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
>problem
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical.The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smallerboats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which Ibelieve is
> attached using epoxy.going
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
Further to my previous post. Cross-planked Chesapeake boats, like
cross-planked sharpies mentioned below, require heavy chine logs. They
perform two functions. First is the obvious necessity to anchor the
fasteners that hold the planks in place. Second, they provide a
significant portion of the stiffness necessary to avoid hog and sag.
In big boats, like my dad's 40 footer, the sides are also stoutly made
with through-bolts from gunwale to chine to stiffen them. Further,
there were 5 or 6 heavy thwarts to stabilize the chine logs relative to
the keel. The side planks were 1.25" thick and about 5" wide. Chine
logs were two courses, each at least that thick. Keel was about 10"
square. All white oak. All this was necessary to keep the cross planks
from being shed like scales from a fish.
V/R
Chris
proaconstrictor wrote:
cross-planked sharpies mentioned below, require heavy chine logs. They
perform two functions. First is the obvious necessity to anchor the
fasteners that hold the planks in place. Second, they provide a
significant portion of the stiffness necessary to avoid hog and sag.
In big boats, like my dad's 40 footer, the sides are also stoutly made
with through-bolts from gunwale to chine to stiffen them. Further,
there were 5 or 6 heavy thwarts to stabilize the chine logs relative to
the keel. The side planks were 1.25" thick and about 5" wide. Chine
logs were two courses, each at least that thick. Keel was about 10"
square. All white oak. All this was necessary to keep the cross planks
from being shed like scales from a fish.
V/R
Chris
proaconstrictor wrote:
> Snip.. That said the original sharpies were built with
> transverse boards so I don't doubt it is a fine idea. I;m not sure
> that wood running in a tranverse direction on the side provides
> enough strength, though.
>
> Snip..
>
Guy,
Welcome to the list.
Since you are an academic, please take the following comments in the
spirit of peer review. I don't see the laminated bottoms of some of
Bolger's larger sharpies (as examples, the Micro, LM, and AS series)
as a problem. Laying and laminating sheets of plywood is relatively
easy, and the orientation of wood-grain in a sheet of plywood deters
cracking and splitting along the grain. The accepted wisdom is that
the cost of completing the hull is only a fraction of the total cost
of completing the boat. Did I miss something?
Bill, in Ohio
Welcome to the list.
Since you are an academic, please take the following comments in the
spirit of peer review. I don't see the laminated bottoms of some of
Bolger's larger sharpies (as examples, the Micro, LM, and AS series)
as a problem. Laying and laminating sheets of plywood is relatively
easy, and the orientation of wood-grain in a sheet of plywood deters
cracking and splitting along the grain. The accepted wisdom is that
the cost of completing the hull is only a fraction of the total cost
of completing the boat. Did I miss something?
Bill, in Ohio
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@...> wrote:
>
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a
problem
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
believe is
> attached using epoxy.
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@...> wrote:
Welcome aboard:-)
What size cheap wood were you looking at? Usually 8' 2X4 studs are
about the cheapest - or was it 2X2's? It should be quite easy to buy a
couple and glue them together with the PL premium and see what you
think. Then compute how many sticks and how much glue it would take to
build an AS29 hull using your method. Then decide how you would finish
the hull to get it smooth. Then compare the cost of an equivalent
amount of plywood and joinery wood. (Assume both would be covered with
glass/epoxy to the waterline to prevent leaks.)
Then estimate the amount of time to build each hull.
Then let us know:-)
You may find that the cheap sticks you buy at Home Depot, don't line
up very well nor edge glue very well. They have to be jointed and
planed first so they will fit together in what is sometimes called a
"butcher block" fashion, and in boat building called strip planking.
In that case the sticks are run horizontaly and can be nailed together
as well as glued if they are thick enough. Thinner ones like cedar
stripper canoes are glued together, but the shear strength is low so
the wood has to be encapsulated in glass on each side, forming an
I-beam cross section.
If you are interested in either method you can Google. "strip planking
boat" and you will get about 344,000 links:-)
Nels
Nels
>problem
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. Thebelieve is
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I
> attached using epoxy."> Guy Vandegrift
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@...Hi Guy,
> Valparaiso University
>
Welcome aboard:-)
What size cheap wood were you looking at? Usually 8' 2X4 studs are
about the cheapest - or was it 2X2's? It should be quite easy to buy a
couple and glue them together with the PL premium and see what you
think. Then compute how many sticks and how much glue it would take to
build an AS29 hull using your method. Then decide how you would finish
the hull to get it smooth. Then compare the cost of an equivalent
amount of plywood and joinery wood. (Assume both would be covered with
glass/epoxy to the waterline to prevent leaks.)
Then estimate the amount of time to build each hull.
Then let us know:-)
You may find that the cheap sticks you buy at Home Depot, don't line
up very well nor edge glue very well. They have to be jointed and
planed first so they will fit together in what is sometimes called a
"butcher block" fashion, and in boat building called strip planking.
In that case the sticks are run horizontaly and can be nailed together
as well as glued if they are thick enough. Thinner ones like cedar
stripper canoes are glued together, but the shear strength is low so
the wood has to be encapsulated in glass on each side, forming an
I-beam cross section.
If you are interested in either method you can Google. "strip planking
boat" and you will get about 344,000 links:-)
Nels
Nels
This is how work boats on the Chesapeake are built. They can not be
taken out of the water for more than about three days or the planks
shrink and separate, leaving a wooden bar screen in place of a bottom.
V/R
Chris
Guy VanDegrift wrote:
taken out of the water for more than about three days or the planks
shrink and separate, leaving a wooden bar screen in place of a bottom.
V/R
Chris
Guy VanDegrift wrote:
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a problem
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I believe is
> attached using epoxy.
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail:Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Guy VanDegrift <guy.vandegrift@...>
wrote:
epoxy? The extra thick layer is partly ballast. If one wants to use
strips as say Ruel Parker does, one might as well build an entirely
different design. That said the original sharpies were built with
transverse boards so I don't doubt it is a fine idea. I;m not sure
that wood running in a tranverse direction on the side provides
enough strength, though.
Plywood is generally cheaper than just about anything else up here.
I can get good stuff for about 1 dollar a square foot which is
cheaper almost than sawing my own "free" wood, or buying wood. Even
green wood. Local costs may vary.
wrote:
>problem
> I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a
> that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical.The
> problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smallerboats.
> One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which Ibelieve is
> attached using epoxy.going
>
> I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips
> sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link atWhat is the problem of attaching the extra thick bottom layer with
>
> <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Guy Vandegrift
> E-Mail: Guy.VanDegrift@...
> Valparaiso University
>
epoxy? The extra thick layer is partly ballast. If one wants to use
strips as say Ruel Parker does, one might as well build an entirely
different design. That said the original sharpies were built with
transverse boards so I don't doubt it is a fine idea. I;m not sure
that wood running in a tranverse direction on the side provides
enough strength, though.
Plywood is generally cheaper than just about anything else up here.
I can get good stuff for about 1 dollar a square foot which is
cheaper almost than sawing my own "free" wood, or buying wood. Even
green wood. Local costs may vary.
I am somewhat new to discussion groups, but think I have solved a problem
that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I believe is
attached using epoxy.
I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
<http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
-----------------------------------------
Guy Vandegrift
E-Mail:Guy.VanDegrift@...
Valparaiso University
that makes large Bolger-like boats such as the AS29 problematical. The
problem is that "instant-boatbuilding" is best suited to smaller boats.
One of many problems is the extra thick bottom layer, which I believe is
attached using epoxy.
I propose an alternative method: Strip plank, but with the strips going
sideways. Only one very simple jig is required. See my link at
<http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/modelboat/index.htm>
-----------------------------------------
Guy Vandegrift
E-Mail:Guy.VanDegrift@...
Valparaiso University