Re: SUPERBRICK - with a built-in trailer
Sure. No problem. Just reproduce the cellular structure of wood, with
all those spaces for mechanical grip. I understand that there are now
high tech laser devices which can put thousands of little tiny holes
in a small space. ;-p
all those spaces for mechanical grip. I understand that there are now
high tech laser devices which can put thousands of little tiny holes
in a small space. ;-p
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <xbb@...> wrote:
snip
> Hi Lincoln,
>
> If these thermal expansion numbers are correct, it doesn't seem like
the glass will peel off the aluminum as long as the epoxy sticks well.
After all, numbers of 10 and 12 are closer than the 10 and 3 which we
typically "stick together" when sheathing wood with fiberglass -- and
we do not see these wood/glass composites coming apart due to thermal
cycling now, do we?
snip
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <xbb@...> wrote:
I wonder what the the thermal expansion numbers are for dry
dimensional fir encapsulated in epoxy? I.E. Using it for the framing
between the plywood and the outer aluminum hull and bolted to the
aluminum framing with over-sized holes in the framing? One might
even consider rubber grommets of some kind in the holes to absorb
vibration and expansion/contraction? (Aluminum support framing with
an L shaped cross-section and evenly spaced holes pre-drilled.)
I recently had the large windshield in my van changed and wondered
about the difference in expansion between the glass and the steel
frame. Of course the "secret" is the rubber gasket between the glass
and the frame which absorbs road shock and differing expansion co-
officients and still remains leakproof. So some sort of gasket like
that could be used between the caprail of the aluminum hull and the
wooden cabin topsides. Sealed with an appropriate mastic.
Then one might consider underfloor ventilation which could be driven
by the heat differential inside the cabin and the cold water under
the hull but also could incorportate a solar driven fan.
The next logical development was shared off-post with me. A MEGA
SUPER BRICK with attached garage so a person could take the tow
vehicle with them too:-)
unit, towing it home, parking it in your garage, and building your
own custom boat on top of it. Now there's an idea!
with instruction manual with several interior arrangement plans
including a flat-deck party boat arrangement:-)
Other options could be aluminum spars with sails.
Nels
> > aluminum about 12pipes)
> > plywood around 3
> > fiberglass around 10 (from figures for expansion of fiberglass
I wonder what the the thermal expansion numbers are for dry
dimensional fir encapsulated in epoxy? I.E. Using it for the framing
between the plywood and the outer aluminum hull and bolted to the
aluminum framing with over-sized holes in the framing? One might
even consider rubber grommets of some kind in the holes to absorb
vibration and expansion/contraction? (Aluminum support framing with
an L shaped cross-section and evenly spaced holes pre-drilled.)
I recently had the large windshield in my van changed and wondered
about the difference in expansion between the glass and the steel
frame. Of course the "secret" is the rubber gasket between the glass
and the frame which absorbs road shock and differing expansion co-
officients and still remains leakproof. So some sort of gasket like
that could be used between the caprail of the aluminum hull and the
wooden cabin topsides. Sealed with an appropriate mastic.
Then one might consider underfloor ventilation which could be driven
by the heat differential inside the cabin and the cold water under
the hull but also could incorportate a solar driven fan.
The next logical development was shared off-post with me. A MEGA
SUPER BRICK with attached garage so a person could take the tow
vehicle with them too:-)
> In fact, a welded aluminum hull/trailer itself may be sellableeven without the rest of the boat. Imagine buying the hull/trailer
unit, towing it home, parking it in your garage, and building your
own custom boat on top of it. Now there's an idea!
>Yes - that is why I asked about the price of a bare hull. Complete
> Kenneth Grome
> Bagacay Boat Works
with instruction manual with several interior arrangement plans
including a flat-deck party boat arrangement:-)
Other options could be aluminum spars with sails.
Nels
Rick,
Thank you for that. In Bolger We Trust.
It is amazing the relaxed feeling one gets when one realizes that the plans as drawn just might be the best way to build the boat. I need to maintain the attitude that I don't need to improve on anything, well almost anything....
Thanks again.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Rick Bedard <sctree@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:33:33 PM
Subject: [bolger] Doubled bottoms [was Re: SUPERBRICK]
A two-layered plywood/epoxy/ringshank nailed bottom is quick, easy and very durable. Done with reasonable care there are no holidays or voids.
I did a non-Bolger [Michalak Jewelbox Jr] boat bottom of two layers of 1/2" plywood (acx) using epoxy and 7/8" silicon bronze ringshank nails. I pre-drilled the second layer with undersized pilotholes for the nails. All the holes were angled differently, partly to reduce the chance of blowthrough, but also to increase the separation resistance [Learned that building docks, random angled nailing keeps planks from lifting]. I pre-started 90% of the nails into the ply before getting the epoxy mixed. Both pieces were precoated with straight epoxy then glued together with thickened epoxy used like Bruce describes with a drywall knife. The pre-set nails made for real fast single-handed nailing. It was very reassuring to see little round ribbons of epoxy streaming out every one of the 10% of the holes I hadn't pre-set nails in (that was my quality control measure). Then went back and added the last of the nails. I used a few short 2x4's jammed under the hull to reduce the
"bounce". All
the nails pounded below flush, puttyed fair, a strip of biaxle tape over the butt joint, added a layer of xynole cloth with epoxy over the entire bottom rolled down (up) the exterior chines, then when tacky, rolled on a finish coat of epoxy with graphite. Inside is just latex paint over latex primer. Just last month I washed, dried, lightly sanded, and repainted the inside bottom.---No hint of rot or delamination after four years. She's ready to go.
Now, with with the logbook reading 223 days on the water, 94 nights at anchor and 1,348 miles under sail, I still feel I have an excellent hull bottom. I'm not worried about any voids...
Soon as this weather breaks I'm going sailing again.......
Hoping to celebrate the 100th night at anchor in April, or at the latest in May!
Rick
ps
Come to think about it, I built my Microtrawler's bottom (just the box keel bottom, sponsons are single thickness) the same way - because MR. BOLGER TOLD ME to nail it up that way!.. It does have marine grade plywood, but it's 11 years now and still fine.. In Bolger I trust.
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you for that. In Bolger We Trust.
It is amazing the relaxed feeling one gets when one realizes that the plans as drawn just might be the best way to build the boat. I need to maintain the attitude that I don't need to improve on anything, well almost anything....
Thanks again.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Rick Bedard <sctree@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:33:33 PM
Subject: [bolger] Doubled bottoms [was Re: SUPERBRICK]
A two-layered plywood/epoxy/ringshank nailed bottom is quick, easy and very durable. Done with reasonable care there are no holidays or voids.
I did a non-Bolger [Michalak Jewelbox Jr] boat bottom of two layers of 1/2" plywood (acx) using epoxy and 7/8" silicon bronze ringshank nails. I pre-drilled the second layer with undersized pilotholes for the nails. All the holes were angled differently, partly to reduce the chance of blowthrough, but also to increase the separation resistance [Learned that building docks, random angled nailing keeps planks from lifting]. I pre-started 90% of the nails into the ply before getting the epoxy mixed. Both pieces were precoated with straight epoxy then glued together with thickened epoxy used like Bruce describes with a drywall knife. The pre-set nails made for real fast single-handed nailing. It was very reassuring to see little round ribbons of epoxy streaming out every one of the 10% of the holes I hadn't pre-set nails in (that was my quality control measure). Then went back and added the last of the nails. I used a few short 2x4's jammed under the hull to reduce the
"bounce". All
the nails pounded below flush, puttyed fair, a strip of biaxle tape over the butt joint, added a layer of xynole cloth with epoxy over the entire bottom rolled down (up) the exterior chines, then when tacky, rolled on a finish coat of epoxy with graphite. Inside is just latex paint over latex primer. Just last month I washed, dried, lightly sanded, and repainted the inside bottom.---No hint of rot or delamination after four years. She's ready to go.
Now, with with the logbook reading 223 days on the water, 94 nights at anchor and 1,348 miles under sail, I still feel I have an excellent hull bottom. I'm not worried about any voids...
Soon as this weather breaks I'm going sailing again.......
Hoping to celebrate the 100th night at anchor in April, or at the latest in May!
Rick
ps
Come to think about it, I built my Microtrawler's bottom (just the box keel bottom, sponsons are single thickness) the same way - because MR. BOLGER TOLD ME to nail it up that way!.. It does have marine grade plywood, but it's 11 years now and still fine.. In Bolger I trust.
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>attempt to minimize Holidays between sheets.Topaz also has a bottom laminated from two sheets of 1/2" plywood.
I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:19:08 -0000, Lincoln Ross wrote:
If these thermal expansion numbers are correct, it doesn't seem like the glass will peel off the aluminum as long as the epoxy sticks well. After all, numbers of 10 and 12 are closer than the 10 and 3 which we typically "stick together" when sheathing wood with fiberglass -- and we do not see these wood/glass composites coming apart due to thermal cycling now, do we?
Looks like the main issue here will simply be to use the proper epoxy for aluminum ... and I'm sure there are industrial epoxies specially formulated for this application. Mechanical fasteners are certainly not out of the question either!
In fact, a welded aluminum hull/trailer itself may be sellable even without the rest of the boat. Imagine buying the hull/trailer unit, towing it home, parking it in your garage, and building your own custom boat on top of it. Now there's an idea!
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
> I looked up thermal expansion coefficients for the materials youHi Lincoln,
> discussed. Following are approximate and not all from the same place,
> so don't put too much faith in them. Looks like fiberglass might be
> ok, not so sure about plywood. Units are in/in per degree F X 10^-6
>
> aluminum about 12
> plywood around 3
> fiberglass around 10 (from figures for expansion of fiberglass pipes)
If these thermal expansion numbers are correct, it doesn't seem like the glass will peel off the aluminum as long as the epoxy sticks well. After all, numbers of 10 and 12 are closer than the 10 and 3 which we typically "stick together" when sheathing wood with fiberglass -- and we do not see these wood/glass composites coming apart due to thermal cycling now, do we?
Looks like the main issue here will simply be to use the proper epoxy for aluminum ... and I'm sure there are industrial epoxies specially formulated for this application. Mechanical fasteners are certainly not out of the question either!
In fact, a welded aluminum hull/trailer itself may be sellable even without the rest of the boat. Imagine buying the hull/trailer unit, towing it home, parking it in your garage, and building your own custom boat on top of it. Now there's an idea!
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:01:38 -0000, Nels wrote:
But if this idea pans out it will certainly be cheaper to weld the hulls together over here in the Philippines than to have it done in the USA. Welding aluminum doesn't require the use of any expensive, high-tech American materials or equipment, that's for sure.
The rest of the building will be less costly over here as well. Of course it needs to fit inside a shipping container to keep the transport costs down, and that may be a redesign issue if the boat is more than 7'6" wide (I don't remember off-hand) because that's more or less the maximum width of a shipping container.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
> Any ball-park cost figure of what a bare aluminum hull that sizeNot yet, I still have to talk with Phil Bolger about this first, and from what I've heard he's been so busy lately that many of his existing customers are feeling neglected ... and I do not have any desire to become "yet another" in that particular group.
> would cost?
But if this idea pans out it will certainly be cheaper to weld the hulls together over here in the Philippines than to have it done in the USA. Welding aluminum doesn't require the use of any expensive, high-tech American materials or equipment, that's for sure.
The rest of the building will be less costly over here as well. Of course it needs to fit inside a shipping container to keep the transport costs down, and that may be a redesign issue if the boat is more than 7'6" wide (I don't remember off-hand) because that's more or less the maximum width of a shipping container.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
Good point.
I was actually more focused on the long term resale value of a welded aluminum frame/hull/trailer as compared with that of wood/glass/epoxy unit.
In my opinion most people won't trust a wooden trailer-boat combo unit to hold together 10-20-30 years from now, regardless if whether or not it's been properly maintained and not abused.
People know that all kinds of things attack wood (worms, insects, fungus, mold, etc.) but little attacks aluminum, and if it does you can actually see where the aluminum needs maintenance -- but now so with painted and epoxy/glass-encased wood.
I think your solution would be fine for the owner-builder who does not want to sell it some day. I was thinking more in terms of manufacturing them for resale, once I built one and proved to myself that it would work of course.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
I was actually more focused on the long term resale value of a welded aluminum frame/hull/trailer as compared with that of wood/glass/epoxy unit.
In my opinion most people won't trust a wooden trailer-boat combo unit to hold together 10-20-30 years from now, regardless if whether or not it's been properly maintained and not abused.
People know that all kinds of things attack wood (worms, insects, fungus, mold, etc.) but little attacks aluminum, and if it does you can actually see where the aluminum needs maintenance -- but now so with painted and epoxy/glass-encased wood.
I think your solution would be fine for the owner-builder who does not want to sell it some day. I was thinking more in terms of manufacturing them for resale, once I built one and proved to myself that it would work of course.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:04:05 -0600, eric green wrote:
> I think everyone is possibly missing the forest for the trees. What is wrong
> with using a wood hulled BRICK with a detachable axle? Certainly some metal
> brackets would have to be added, but a wood hull can be plenty stiff and
> strong enough to act as a trailer. Remember, plywood is stronger and stiffer
> (in bending) than steel on a pound for pound basis. It only looses when you
> look at ductility, toughness and abrasion resistance, which is not too
> important in regards to trailers.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Michael Collins
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:36 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK - with a built-in trailer
>
>
>
>
>
> Nels wrote:
>
>> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <xbb@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> One of my concerns in this approach, aside from the effectiveness
>> of the epoxy-aluminum bond, is the possibility of different rates of
>> thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of
>> the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
>>
>>
>> I wonder how Airsteam trailers install their interiors?
>>
>> Nels
>>
> I don't know about Airstream, but Winebago uses a sandwich construction
> with about 1" to 2" of foam to allow for the differences between thermal
> expansion on the interior and exterior.
>
> If I wanted to attach a composite hull to an Al mesh of stringers and
> frames, I'd use an interior hull and polyurethane foam (2.5lbs/cuft)
> blown in between the hulls. The foam encapsulates the frames and
> stringers and bonds to the exterior hull. Polyurethane will bond but
> will also shear lose with enough work. Spots at stem, transome and keel
> could be attached by heavily epoxying.
>
> I believe Kenneth also is considering have a hull made of different
> materials at different locations on the surface of the hull. I believe
> that a seam in the hull between two materials with differring thermal
> expansion coefficients would require a special seal developed where the
> thermal coefficient varries accross the seal. There is a gradient in the
> thermal coefficent across the joint. I've done this for other
> applications, and would not consider it practical for a hull.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
>
> HYPERLINK
> "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+magazine&w1=Boating+magazine&w2
> =Boating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=2UfxDywpw
> -PWpjb_QAWBag"Boating magazine
>
> HYPERLINK
> "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+safety&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=B
> oating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=P64xoPu4Eyf
> 9oN53Fz-bjg"Boating safety
>
> HYPERLINK
> "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alaska+outdoors&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=
> Boating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=CZnGxN1hhs
> m9362-vD7uJg"Alaska outdoors
>
>
> HYPERLINK
> "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Great+outdoors&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=B
> oating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=NDKY61Cox5l
> EhyoUyXqQTg"Great outdoors
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "HYPERLINK
> "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger"bolger"on the web.
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HYPERLINK
> "mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"bolger-unsubs
>cribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
> "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo!Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/288 - Release Date: 3/22/2006
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/288 - Release Date: 3/22/2006
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
A two-layered plywood/epoxy/ringshank nailed bottom is quick, easy and very durable. Done with reasonable care there are no holidays or voids.
I did a non-Bolger [Michalak Jewelbox Jr] boat bottom of two layers of 1/2" plywood (acx) using epoxy and 7/8" silicon bronze ringshank nails. I pre-drilled the second layer with undersized pilotholes for the nails. All the holes were angled differently, partly to reduce the chance of blowthrough, but also to increase the separation resistance [Learned that building docks, random angled nailing keeps planks from lifting]. I pre-started 90% of the nails into the ply before getting the epoxy mixed. Both pieces were precoated with straight epoxy then glued together with thickened epoxy used like Bruce describes with a drywall knife. The pre-set nails made for real fast single-handed nailing. It was very reassuring to see little round ribbons of epoxy streaming out every one of the 10% of the holes I hadn't pre-set nails in (that was my quality control measure). Then went back and added the last of the nails. I used a few short 2x4's jammed under the hull to reduce the "bounce". All
the nails pounded below flush, puttyed fair, a strip of biaxle tape over the butt joint, added a layer of xynole cloth with epoxy over the entire bottom rolled down (up) the exterior chines, then when tacky, rolled on a finish coat of epoxy with graphite. Inside is just latex paint over latex primer. Just last month I washed, dried, lightly sanded, and repainted the inside bottom.---No hint of rot or delamination after four years. She's ready to go.
Now, with with the logbook reading 223 days on the water, 94 nights at anchor and 1,348 miles under sail, I still feel I have an excellent hull bottom. I'm not worried about any voids...
Soon as this weather breaks I'm going sailing again.......
Hoping to celebrate the 100th night at anchor in April, or at the latest in May!
Rick
ps
Come to think about it, I built my Microtrawler's bottom (just the box keel bottom, sponsons are single thickness) the same way - because MR. BOLGER TOLD ME to nail it up that way!.. It does have marine grade plywood, but it's 11 years now and still fine.. In Bolger I trust.
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I did a non-Bolger [Michalak Jewelbox Jr] boat bottom of two layers of 1/2" plywood (acx) using epoxy and 7/8" silicon bronze ringshank nails. I pre-drilled the second layer with undersized pilotholes for the nails. All the holes were angled differently, partly to reduce the chance of blowthrough, but also to increase the separation resistance [Learned that building docks, random angled nailing keeps planks from lifting]. I pre-started 90% of the nails into the ply before getting the epoxy mixed. Both pieces were precoated with straight epoxy then glued together with thickened epoxy used like Bruce describes with a drywall knife. The pre-set nails made for real fast single-handed nailing. It was very reassuring to see little round ribbons of epoxy streaming out every one of the 10% of the holes I hadn't pre-set nails in (that was my quality control measure). Then went back and added the last of the nails. I used a few short 2x4's jammed under the hull to reduce the "bounce". All
the nails pounded below flush, puttyed fair, a strip of biaxle tape over the butt joint, added a layer of xynole cloth with epoxy over the entire bottom rolled down (up) the exterior chines, then when tacky, rolled on a finish coat of epoxy with graphite. Inside is just latex paint over latex primer. Just last month I washed, dried, lightly sanded, and repainted the inside bottom.---No hint of rot or delamination after four years. She's ready to go.
Now, with with the logbook reading 223 days on the water, 94 nights at anchor and 1,348 miles under sail, I still feel I have an excellent hull bottom. I'm not worried about any voids...
Soon as this weather breaks I'm going sailing again.......
Hoping to celebrate the 100th night at anchor in April, or at the latest in May!
Rick
ps
Come to think about it, I built my Microtrawler's bottom (just the box keel bottom, sponsons are single thickness) the same way - because MR. BOLGER TOLD ME to nail it up that way!.. It does have marine grade plywood, but it's 11 years now and still fine.. In Bolger I trust.
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>attempt to minimize Holidays between sheets.Topaz also has a bottom laminated from two sheets of 1/2" plywood.
I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think everyone is possibly missing the forest for the trees. What is wrong
with using a wood hulled BRICK with a detachable axle? Certainly some metal
brackets would have to be added, but a wood hull can be plenty stiff and
strong enough to act as a trailer. Remember, plywood is stronger and stiffer
(in bending) than steel on a pound for pound basis. It only looses when you
look at ductility, toughness and abrasion resistance, which is not too
important in regards to trailers.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Collins
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:36 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK - with a built-in trailer
Nels wrote:
with about 1" to 2" of foam to allow for the differences between thermal
expansion on the interior and exterior.
If I wanted to attach a composite hull to an Al mesh of stringers and
frames, I'd use an interior hull and polyurethane foam (2.5lbs/cuft)
blown in between the hulls. The foam encapsulates the frames and
stringers and bonds to the exterior hull. Polyurethane will bond but
will also shear lose with enough work. Spots at stem, transome and keel
could be attached by heavily epoxying.
I believe Kenneth also is considering have a hull made of different
materials at different locations on the surface of the hull. I believe
that a seam in the hull between two materials with differring thermal
expansion coefficients would require a special seal developed where the
thermal coefficient varries accross the seal. There is a gradient in the
thermal coefficent across the joint. I've done this for other
applications, and would not consider it practical for a hull.
Michael
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SPONSORED LINKS
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+magazine&w1=Boating+magazine&w2
=Boating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=2UfxDywpw
-PWpjb_QAWBag"Boating magazine
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+safety&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=B
oating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=P64xoPu4Eyf
9oN53Fz-bjg"Boating safety
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alaska+outdoors&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=
Boating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=CZnGxN1hhs
m9362-vD7uJg"Alaska outdoors
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Great+outdoors&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=B
oating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=NDKY61Cox5l
EhyoUyXqQTg"Great outdoors
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger"bolger"on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK
"mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"bolger-unsubs
cribe@yahoogroups.com
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo!Terms of Service.
_____
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/288 - Release Date: 3/22/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/288 - Release Date: 3/22/2006
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with using a wood hulled BRICK with a detachable axle? Certainly some metal
brackets would have to be added, but a wood hull can be plenty stiff and
strong enough to act as a trailer. Remember, plywood is stronger and stiffer
(in bending) than steel on a pound for pound basis. It only looses when you
look at ductility, toughness and abrasion resistance, which is not too
important in regards to trailers.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Collins
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:36 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK - with a built-in trailer
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <xbb@...> wrote:I don't know about Airstream, but Winebago uses a sandwich construction
> >
> > One of my concerns in this approach, aside from the effectiveness
> of the epoxy-aluminum bond, is the possibility of different rates of
> thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of
> the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
>
>
> I wonder how Airsteam trailers install their interiors?
>
> Nels
>
with about 1" to 2" of foam to allow for the differences between thermal
expansion on the interior and exterior.
If I wanted to attach a composite hull to an Al mesh of stringers and
frames, I'd use an interior hull and polyurethane foam (2.5lbs/cuft)
blown in between the hulls. The foam encapsulates the frames and
stringers and bonds to the exterior hull. Polyurethane will bond but
will also shear lose with enough work. Spots at stem, transome and keel
could be attached by heavily epoxying.
I believe Kenneth also is considering have a hull made of different
materials at different locations on the surface of the hull. I believe
that a seam in the hull between two materials with differring thermal
expansion coefficients would require a special seal developed where the
thermal coefficient varries accross the seal. There is a gradient in the
thermal coefficent across the joint. I've done this for other
applications, and would not consider it practical for a hull.
Michael
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SPONSORED LINKS
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+magazine&w1=Boating+magazine&w2
=Boating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=2UfxDywpw
-PWpjb_QAWBag"Boating magazine
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+safety&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=B
oating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=P64xoPu4Eyf
9oN53Fz-bjg"Boating safety
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alaska+outdoors&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=
Boating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=CZnGxN1hhs
m9362-vD7uJg"Alaska outdoors
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Great+outdoors&w1=Boating+magazine&w2=B
oating+safety&w3=Alaska+outdoors&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=NDKY61Cox5l
EhyoUyXqQTg"Great outdoors
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger"bolger"on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK
"mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"bolger-unsubs
cribe@yahoogroups.com
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo!Terms of Service.
_____
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/288 - Release Date: 3/22/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/288 - Release Date: 3/22/2006
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nels wrote:
with about 1" to 2" of foam to allow for the differences between thermal
expansion on the interior and exterior.
If I wanted to attach a composite hull to an Al mesh of stringers and
frames, I'd use an interior hull and polyurethane foam (2.5lbs/cuft)
blown in between the hulls. The foam encapsulates the frames and
stringers and bonds to the exterior hull. Polyurethane will bond but
will also shear lose with enough work. Spots at stem, transome and keel
could be attached by heavily epoxying.
I believe Kenneth also is considering have a hull made of different
materials at different locations on the surface of the hull. I believe
that a seam in the hull between two materials with differring thermal
expansion coefficients would require a special seal developed where the
thermal coefficient varries accross the seal. There is a gradient in the
thermal coefficent across the joint. I've done this for other
applications, and would not consider it practical for a hull.
Michael
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <xbb@...> wrote:I don't know about Airstream, but Winebago uses a sandwich construction
> >
> > One of my concerns in this approach, aside from the effectiveness
> of the epoxy-aluminum bond, is the possibility of different rates of
> thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of
> the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
>
>
> I wonder how Airsteam trailers install their interiors?
>
> Nels
>
with about 1" to 2" of foam to allow for the differences between thermal
expansion on the interior and exterior.
If I wanted to attach a composite hull to an Al mesh of stringers and
frames, I'd use an interior hull and polyurethane foam (2.5lbs/cuft)
blown in between the hulls. The foam encapsulates the frames and
stringers and bonds to the exterior hull. Polyurethane will bond but
will also shear lose with enough work. Spots at stem, transome and keel
could be attached by heavily epoxying.
I believe Kenneth also is considering have a hull made of different
materials at different locations on the surface of the hull. I believe
that a seam in the hull between two materials with differring thermal
expansion coefficients would require a special seal developed where the
thermal coefficient varries accross the seal. There is a gradient in the
thermal coefficent across the joint. I've done this for other
applications, and would not consider it practical for a hull.
Michael
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>ogether.That's what I was thinking, using 3-M 5200.
>
> I was thinking of mechanical attachment of some kind perhaps with
> oversized holes - sealed with some kind of lquid rubber - to allow
> some movement.
>
> How long does it take to nail up a bottom like that?I worked in short spurts of free time in the evenings after work. The
Topaz bottom is comprised of 16 pieces [two layers of 8], and I
cut/glue/nailed one piece at a time, averaging one piece per one or
two hour session. The first layer involved one sided fiberglass tape
Payson butt joints, and the second layer involved glue/ringshank nail
lamination.
The 2 foot stagger of the joints did a remarkable job of 'averaging'
out the wows and wobbles inherent to 1/2" plywood.
> I'd guess it is also true that the voids are air tight and thus don't have enough O2 to rot.I have no doubt what-so-ever that the ringshank nails sucked the
laminates *tightly* together. A hammer can exert many pounds per
square inch of pressure. If you doubt that ringshank nails hold
tight, try to remove one!
My attitude about O2 in the wood is changed forever after looking at
wood under a microscope. Measured by volume, wood is mostly gaseous!
http://hort.net/+139k
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/IMAGES/CONIFER%20WOOD%20ELECTRON%20SCOPE.jpg
And, you can't really change that wood is FULL of voids ...epoxy
saturation is a myth, IMO, not really achievable except superficially
to end grain.
Something to consider is the need to repair the aluminum. If there
happens to be a welding repair needed near the junction with the foreign
material, epoxy, fibreglass, wood, at the least the paint will burn and
the al to non-al joint will be compromised.
BllFs6@...wrote:
happens to be a welding repair needed near the junction with the foreign
material, epoxy, fibreglass, wood, at the least the paint will burn and
the al to non-al joint will be compromised.
BllFs6@...wrote:
>
>Hi
>
>I used to work in a military R and D place......they used a grayish, thick
>expoxy called I believe HYSOL (or something similiar sounding) for glue stuff
>to Aluminum,,,,,not sure how it would stick to plywood (either bare or expoxy
>coated), but the injunears there said it was one of the best for sticking to
>aluminum....the trick was proper prep of the aluminum,,,and I don't recall
>the roughing up of the aluminum surface being a critical part. I helped with
>the stuff on occasion, and I dont recall the stuff being particularly
>expensive, obnoxious, or difficult to work with....
>
>Blll
>
>
>
>In a message dated 3/23/2006 9:20:58 AM Central Standard Time,
>lincolnr@...writes:
>
>First issue to study would be some very serious experimentation with
>epoxy to aluminum bonds. Perhaps you could figure out a way to get
>some heavy texture on the aluminum. However, that might interfere with
>the elaborate surface prep required. If I was doing it I'd rough it up
>a bit, then do thourough washing and careful degreasing, use
>phosphoric acid on it, rinse, dry, IMMEDIATELY apply some epoxy and
>Scotchbrite right thru the wet epoxy to prevent an oxide layer from
>interfering with the bond. Then, in a more leisurely fashion, attach
>the structural pieces while that first epoxy is still soft enough for
>good chemical bond.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <xbb@...> wrote:
bottom welded to aluminum stringers and frames to make the bottom
super strong, stiff and durable -- then using composite materials
for the rest of the hull and the interior structure of the boat.
thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of
the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
I was thinking of mechanical attachment of some kind perhaps with
oversized holes - sealed with some kind of lquid rubber - to allow
some movement.
Any ball-park cost figure of what a bare aluminum hull that size
would cost? Probably with some vertical framing added along the
sides so the wooden stringers could be attached. Then have
insulating foam in between. Maybe get away with the verticals being
about two feet apart. Or would horizontal aluminum stringers work
better and then vertical wooden "studs" extending up to the top of
the deckhouse structure? Or even aluminum studs? You would probably
have a better idea than me.
I wonder how Airsteam trailers install their interiors?
Nels
> I am currently discussing with Renn Tolman the possibility ofbuilding a Tolman skiff using much the same technique -- an aluminum
bottom welded to aluminum stringers and frames to make the bottom
super strong, stiff and durable -- then using composite materials
for the rest of the hull and the interior structure of the boat.
>of the epoxy-aluminum bond, is the possibility of different rates of
> One of my concerns in this approach, aside from the effectiveness
thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of
the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
I was thinking of mechanical attachment of some kind perhaps with
oversized holes - sealed with some kind of lquid rubber - to allow
some movement.
Any ball-park cost figure of what a bare aluminum hull that size
would cost? Probably with some vertical framing added along the
sides so the wooden stringers could be attached. Then have
insulating foam in between. Maybe get away with the verticals being
about two feet apart. Or would horizontal aluminum stringers work
better and then vertical wooden "studs" extending up to the top of
the deckhouse structure? Or even aluminum studs? You would probably
have a better idea than me.
I wonder how Airsteam trailers install their interiors?
Nels
Bruce,
Is your conscience clear? Are you sure? Do you have any doubts? How do you spell Paranoia? Can I convince myself that small Holidays are not significant? Certainly the two plys are attached for life. I'd guess it is also true that the voids are air tight and thus don't have enough O2 to rot. So why do I worry so about these things. I did my SHS bottom that way and used MDO. I was quite annoyed when some of the nails peaked through on the bottom (which is the top). Nothing major but there was a fine line between penetration and holding power. Makes for one solid bottom I must admit. Two layers of 3/8 that is.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is your conscience clear? Are you sure? Do you have any doubts? How do you spell Paranoia? Can I convince myself that small Holidays are not significant? Certainly the two plys are attached for life. I'd guess it is also true that the voids are air tight and thus don't have enough O2 to rot. So why do I worry so about these things. I did my SHS bottom that way and used MDO. I was quite annoyed when some of the nails peaked through on the bottom (which is the top). Nothing major but there was a fine line between penetration and holding power. Makes for one solid bottom I must admit. Two layers of 3/8 that is.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
>attempt to minimize Holidays between sheets.Topaz also has a bottom laminated from two sheets of 1/2" plywood.
I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The procedure I quoted is more or less as remembered from a book on
homebuilt aircraft. The author strongly discouraged people from using
epoxy to aluminum bonds structurally as he didn't consider them very
reliable. I think he actually mentioned HYSOL.
homebuilt aircraft. The author strongly discouraged people from using
epoxy to aluminum bonds structurally as he didn't consider them very
reliable. I think he actually mentioned HYSOL.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> I used to work in a military R and D place......they used a grayish,
thick
> expoxy called I believe HYSOL (or something similiar sounding) for
glue stuff
> to Aluminum,,,,,not sure how it would stick to plywood (either bare
or expoxy
> coated), but the injunears there said it was one of the best for
sticking to
> aluminum....the trick was proper prep of the aluminum,,,and I don't
recall
> the roughing up of the aluminum surface being a critical part. I
helped with
> the stuff on occasion, and I dont recall the stuff being particularly
> expensive, obnoxious, or difficult to work with....
>
> Blll
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/23/2006 9:20:58 AM Central Standard Time,
> lincolnr@... writes:
>
> First issue to study would be some very serious experimentation with
> epoxy to aluminum bonds. Perhaps you could figure out a way to get
> some heavy texture on the aluminum. However, that might interfere with
> the elaborate surface prep required. If I was doing it I'd rough it up
> a bit, then do thourough washing and careful degreasing, use
> phosphoric acid on it, rinse, dry, IMMEDIATELY apply some epoxy and
> Scotchbrite right thru the wet epoxy to prevent an oxide layer from
> interfering with the bond. Then, in a more leisurely fashion, attach
> the structural pieces while that first epoxy is still soft enough for
> good chemical bond.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
If I was doing this I'd be seriously tempted to do this by vacuum
bagging. Especially if the curve of the bottom was gentle enough that
I could make it up flat before attaching. Hard to beat several pounds
per square inch for clamping pressure. I suppose for a really big job
I'd set up two or three check valves and use discarded vacuum
cleaners, at least to get it started. Might only be 1 lb per square
inch then, though. Would use only enough nails to hold wood in
position until bag clamps down. Might be a good job for insomniac
types: do it in the middle of the night when it's cold and you have
more time, let it cure in daytime when it's warm.
How long does it take to nail up a bottom like that?
bagging. Especially if the curve of the bottom was gentle enough that
I could make it up flat before attaching. Hard to beat several pounds
per square inch for clamping pressure. I suppose for a really big job
I'd set up two or three check valves and use discarded vacuum
cleaners, at least to get it started. Might only be 1 lb per square
inch then, though. Would use only enough nails to hold wood in
position until bag clamps down. Might be a good job for insomniac
types: do it in the middle of the night when it's cold and you have
more time, let it cure in daytime when it's warm.
How long does it take to nail up a bottom like that?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> >attempt to minimize Holidays between sheets.
>
> Topaz also has a bottom laminated from two sheets of 1/2" plywood.
> I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
> taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
> silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
> where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
> hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
>
> Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
>
Hi
I used to work in a military R and D place......they used a grayish, thick
expoxy called I believe HYSOL (or something similiar sounding) for glue stuff
to Aluminum,,,,,not sure how it would stick to plywood (either bare or expoxy
coated), but the injunears there said it was one of the best for sticking to
aluminum....the trick was proper prep of the aluminum,,,and I don't recall
the roughing up of the aluminum surface being a critical part. I helped with
the stuff on occasion, and I dont recall the stuff being particularly
expensive, obnoxious, or difficult to work with....
Blll
In a message dated 3/23/2006 9:20:58 AM Central Standard Time,
lincolnr@...writes:
First issue to study would be some very serious experimentation with
epoxy to aluminum bonds. Perhaps you could figure out a way to get
some heavy texture on the aluminum. However, that might interfere with
the elaborate surface prep required. If I was doing it I'd rough it up
a bit, then do thourough washing and careful degreasing, use
phosphoric acid on it, rinse, dry, IMMEDIATELY apply some epoxy and
Scotchbrite right thru the wet epoxy to prevent an oxide layer from
interfering with the bond. Then, in a more leisurely fashion, attach
the structural pieces while that first epoxy is still soft enough for
good chemical bond.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I used to work in a military R and D place......they used a grayish, thick
expoxy called I believe HYSOL (or something similiar sounding) for glue stuff
to Aluminum,,,,,not sure how it would stick to plywood (either bare or expoxy
coated), but the injunears there said it was one of the best for sticking to
aluminum....the trick was proper prep of the aluminum,,,and I don't recall
the roughing up of the aluminum surface being a critical part. I helped with
the stuff on occasion, and I dont recall the stuff being particularly
expensive, obnoxious, or difficult to work with....
Blll
In a message dated 3/23/2006 9:20:58 AM Central Standard Time,
lincolnr@...writes:
First issue to study would be some very serious experimentation with
epoxy to aluminum bonds. Perhaps you could figure out a way to get
some heavy texture on the aluminum. However, that might interfere with
the elaborate surface prep required. If I was doing it I'd rough it up
a bit, then do thourough washing and careful degreasing, use
phosphoric acid on it, rinse, dry, IMMEDIATELY apply some epoxy and
Scotchbrite right thru the wet epoxy to prevent an oxide layer from
interfering with the bond. Then, in a more leisurely fashion, attach
the structural pieces while that first epoxy is still soft enough for
good chemical bond.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I looked up thermal expansion coefficients for the materials you
discussed. Following are approximate and not all from the same place,
so don't put too much faith in them. Looks like fiberglass might be
ok, not so sure about plywood. Units are in/in per degree F X 10^-6
aluminum about 12
plywood around 3
fiberglass around 10 (from figures for expansion of fiberglass pipes)
First issue to study would be some very serious experimentation with
epoxy to aluminum bonds. Perhaps you could figure out a way to get
some heavy texture on the aluminum. However, that might interfere with
the elaborate surface prep required. If I was doing it I'd rough it up
a bit, then do thourough washing and careful degreasing, use
phosphoric acid on it, rinse, dry, IMMEDIATELY apply some epoxy and
Scotchbrite right thru the wet epoxy to prevent an oxide layer from
interfering with the bond. Then, in a more leisurely fashion, attach
the structural pieces while that first epoxy is still soft enough for
good chemical bond.
I wonder if clever use of mechanical fasteners and goo might not be
better. Plus you can say you have the devil to pay... (I doubt if it's
true, but Calahan, who wrote some books about sailing, stated that the
origin of "the devil to pay" was a long seam called the devil which
had to be stuffed with oakum before caulking. I put about as much
faith in this theory as in the one about the origin of "balls freezing
off a brass monkey". Well, maybe a bit more, since I looked up the
difference in thermal expansion between iron and brass.)
discussed. Following are approximate and not all from the same place,
so don't put too much faith in them. Looks like fiberglass might be
ok, not so sure about plywood. Units are in/in per degree F X 10^-6
aluminum about 12
plywood around 3
fiberglass around 10 (from figures for expansion of fiberglass pipes)
First issue to study would be some very serious experimentation with
epoxy to aluminum bonds. Perhaps you could figure out a way to get
some heavy texture on the aluminum. However, that might interfere with
the elaborate surface prep required. If I was doing it I'd rough it up
a bit, then do thourough washing and careful degreasing, use
phosphoric acid on it, rinse, dry, IMMEDIATELY apply some epoxy and
Scotchbrite right thru the wet epoxy to prevent an oxide layer from
interfering with the bond. Then, in a more leisurely fashion, attach
the structural pieces while that first epoxy is still soft enough for
good chemical bond.
I wonder if clever use of mechanical fasteners and goo might not be
better. Plus you can say you have the devil to pay... (I doubt if it's
true, but Calahan, who wrote some books about sailing, stated that the
origin of "the devil to pay" was a long seam called the devil which
had to be stuffed with oakum before caulking. I put about as much
faith in this theory as in the one about the origin of "balls freezing
off a brass monkey". Well, maybe a bit more, since I looked up the
difference in thermal expansion between iron and brass.)
>attempt to minimize Holidays between sheets.Topaz also has a bottom laminated from two sheets of 1/2" plywood.
I did this by spreading epoxy to both pieces using a 6" wide drywall
taping knife, then I nailed the sheets together using 7/8" ringshank
silicone bronze nails spaced at about 8" on center. In certain places
where the bottom was too 'bouncy' to accept a nail, I used a 2 pound
hammer as a 'backer' to firm things up.
Quick, easy, cheap, and zero problem with voids.
Nels,
Double half inch with at least 3 inch overlap at the joints. Nail or screw into sides and braces and attempt to minimize Holidays between sheets. Now this last item is what has taken me so long with the Single Handed Schooner, to many Holidays! (I won't say "between the sheets").
It is early and I must go mix epoxy. I do like my milled glass fibers.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Nels <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 7:30:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
Double half inch with at least 3 inch overlap at the joints. Nail or screw into sides and braces and attempt to minimize Holidays between sheets. Now this last item is what has taken me so long with the Single Handed Schooner, to many Holidays! (I won't say "between the sheets").
It is early and I must go mix epoxy. I do like my milled glass fibers.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Nels <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 7:30:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> A Google search show that copper wholesales about $2 a pound in
bulk.
> On Resolution, I recall, Phil Bolger nailed the copper sheet on using
> copper nails, that is what I would do too. What is the thickness of
> Superbricks bottom? Two layers of 1/2" I am guessing, and that could
> safely take copper nails.
>
> If recent PB&F designs are any indication, the positive buoyancy
> floatation would be added as 'dual use' hard foam thermal insulation.
>
I would also be interested in the bottom thickness called for in
SUPERBRICK.
I was considering that it could be built from a single course of 5/8"
MDO - which I have on hand. There seems to be a considerable amount of
internal framing to stiffen it, and with 10z glass and extra taping to
the exterior chines would seem quite adequate for sheltered use. But I
was also considering a CLAM SKIF - like central shoe keel blending in
with the box cutwater.
Then the copper cladding option appeared which would obviously require
a thicker bottom as well as the challenge of attachment thereof as
well as the added expense.
When googling copper sheeting I got some options when it comes to
cladding that is less expensive, at least when it comes to roofing.
They are zinc and aluminum.
Then when looking at pontoon boats and their trailiers I got to
wondering how the cost of a simple aluminum hull would compare to the
cost and complication a thicker hull with a copper bottom.
So I posted a file to the SUPERBRICK folder that is included in the
BRICK DINGY folder at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Brick%20Dinghy/
It is called "SuperbrickIsometric". The isometric diagram in solid
lines would define the hull built from aluminum. Then the rest of the
boat would be constructed from plywood and lined with foam insulation
as Bruce suggested.
The main challenge would be how to attach the plywood upper strcture
to the aluminum hull, and how the cost would compare to how Bolger
suggests it be built?
It would certainly be a low maintenance solution I would suggest. But
only a pipe dream most likely.
Nels
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <xbb@...> wrote:
bottom welded to aluminum stringers and frames to make the bottom
super strong, stiff and durable -- then using composite materials for
the rest of the hull and the interior structure of the boat.
thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of
the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
will eventually separate the aluminum hull bottom from the composite
sides. But if the expansion and contraction of these different
materials is not much different, it could open up a whole new concept
in boat building -- by encouraging the use of durable and easy to
work aluminum in the below-water portions of the hulls while we
continue to use plywood and epoxy above the water line. If it works,
our hulls might last almost forever with minimal maintenance.
box-beams to create a super-stiff structure -- and then to attach
removable (or retractable?) wheels and a removable trailer tongue --
so I can tow the Super Brick without a trailer!
is no water around it works just like any other camping trailer. But
any time I find a launch ramp all I have to do is "back it in" then
remove the wheels and hitch and go sailing.
----------------------
The idea sounds great , you could have a look at the :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatwheels/
a Repository for ideas about Wheels for boats .
Old Ben
----------------------
as ballast.
steel instead of aluminum -- although in terms of attractiveness to a
future buyer (and in terms of less maintenance worries for me) the
aluminum would be far better because of its lighter weight and anti-
corrosion features.
>solid
> > It is called "SuperbrickIsometric". The isometric diagram in
> > lines would define the hull built from aluminum. Then the rest ofthe
> > boat would be constructed from plywood and lined with foaminsulation
> > as Bruce suggested.strcture
> >
> > The main challenge would be how to attach the plywood upper
> > to the aluminum hull, and how the cost would compare to howBolger
> > suggests it be built?building a Tolman skiff using much the same technique -- an aluminum
>
>
> I am currently discussing with Renn Tolman the possibility of
bottom welded to aluminum stringers and frames to make the bottom
super strong, stiff and durable -- then using composite materials for
the rest of the hull and the interior structure of the boat.
>of the epoxy-aluminum bond, is the possibility of different rates of
> One of my concerns in this approach, aside from the effectiveness
thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of
the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
>dramatically different rates of thermal expansion and contraction
> No matter how good the epoxy sticks to aluminum, it seems that
will eventually separate the aluminum hull bottom from the composite
sides. But if the expansion and contraction of these different
materials is not much different, it could open up a whole new concept
in boat building -- by encouraging the use of durable and easy to
work aluminum in the below-water portions of the hulls while we
continue to use plywood and epoxy above the water line. If it works,
our hulls might last almost forever with minimal maintenance.
>internal framework) out of welded aluminum sheets and i-beams and/or
> My other desire is even more far-fetched ...
>
> I'm hoping one day to build a Super Brick hull (bottom, sides and
box-beams to create a super-stiff structure -- and then to attach
removable (or retractable?) wheels and a removable trailer tongue --
so I can tow the Super Brick without a trailer!
>in any of the hundreds of campgrounds in the USA, so whenever there
> I can imagine using a boat like this as a camping trailer to stay
is no water around it works just like any other camping trailer. But
any time I find a launch ramp all I have to do is "back it in" then
remove the wheels and hitch and go sailing.
----------------------
The idea sounds great , you could have a look at the :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatwheels/
a Repository for ideas about Wheels for boats .
Old Ben
----------------------
>as Phil Bolger says, it can easily handle a lot of additional weight
> The Super Brick would be the ideal boat to try this in too, because
as ballast.
>haven't run any numbers yet) this may work even if I tried it using
> And although my gut feeling is that steel would be too heavy (I
steel instead of aluminum -- although in terms of attractiveness to a
future buyer (and in terms of less maintenance worries for me) the
aluminum would be far better because of its lighter weight and anti-
corrosion features.
>
> One of these days ... :)
>
> Kenneth Grome
> Bagacay Boat Works
>
> It is called "SuperbrickIsometric". The isometric diagram in solidI am currently discussing with Renn Tolman the possibility of building a Tolman skiff using much the same technique -- an aluminum bottom welded to aluminum stringers and frames to make the bottom super strong, stiff and durable -- then using composite materials for the rest of the hull and the interior structure of the boat.
> lines would define the hull built from aluminum. Then the rest of the
> boat would be constructed from plywood and lined with foam insulation
> as Bruce suggested.
>
> The main challenge would be how to attach the plywood upper strcture
> to the aluminum hull, and how the cost would compare to how Bolger
> suggests it be built?
One of my concerns in this approach, aside from the effectiveness of the epoxy-aluminum bond, is the possibility of different rates of thermal expansion that may eventually tear the composite portions of the hull away from the aluminum where they are glued together.
No matter how good the epoxy sticks to aluminum, it seems that dramatically different rates of thermal expansion and contraction will eventually separate the aluminum hull bottom from the composite sides. But if the expansion and contraction of these different materials is not much different, it could open up a whole new concept in boat building -- by encouraging the use of durable and easy to work aluminum in the below-water portions of the hulls while we continue to use plywood and epoxy above the water line. If it works, our hulls might last almost forever with minimal maintenance.
My other desire is even more far-fetched ...
I'm hoping one day to build a Super Brick hull (bottom, sides and internal framework) out of welded aluminum sheets and i-beams and/or box-beams to create a super-stiff structure -- and then to attach removable (or retractable?) wheels and a removable trailer tongue -- so I can tow the Super Brick without a trailer!
I can imagine using a boat like this as a camping trailer to stay in any of the hundreds of campgrounds in the USA, so whenever there is no water around it works just like any other camping trailer. But any time I find a launch ramp all I have to do is "back it in" then remove the wheels and hitch and go sailing.
The Super Brick would be the ideal boat to try this in too, because as Phil Bolger says, it can easily handle a lot of additional weight as ballast.
And although my gut feeling is that steel would be too heavy (I haven't run any numbers yet) this may work even if I tried it using steel instead of aluminum -- although in terms of attractiveness to a future buyer (and in terms of less maintenance worries for me) the aluminum would be far better because of its lighter weight and anti-corrosion features.
One of these days ... :)
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
Staying in the Brick family, a FastBrick cutwater would seem to make
sense.
The Clamskiff thing is referred to as a shoe by Bolger.
sense.
The Clamskiff thing is referred to as a shoe by Bolger.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
SUPERBRICK.
I was considering that it could be built from a single course of 5/8"
MDO - which I have on hand. There seems to be a considerable amount of
internal framing to stiffen it, and with 10z glass and extra taping to
the exterior chines would seem quite adequate for sheltered use. But I
was also considering a CLAM SKIF - like central shoe keel blending in
with the box cutwater.
Then the copper cladding option appeared which would obviously require
a thicker bottom as well as the challenge of attachment thereof as
well as the added expense.
When googling copper sheeting I got some options when it comes to
cladding that is less expensive, at least when it comes to roofing.
They are zinc and aluminum.
Then when looking at pontoon boats and their trailiers I got to
wondering how the cost of a simple aluminum hull would compare to the
cost and complication a thicker hull with a copper bottom.
So I posted a file to the SUPERBRICK folder that is included in the
BRICK DINGY folder at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Brick%20Dinghy/
It is called "SuperbrickIsometric". The isometric diagram in solid
lines would define the hull built from aluminum. Then the rest of the
boat would be constructed from plywood and lined with foam insulation
as Bruce suggested.
The main challenge would be how to attach the plywood upper strcture
to the aluminum hull, and how the cost would compare to how Bolger
suggests it be built?
It would certainly be a low maintenance solution I would suggest. But
only a pipe dream most likely.
Nels
>bulk.
> A Google search show that copper wholesales about $2 a pound in
> On Resolution, I recall, Phil Bolger nailed the copper sheet on usingI would also be interested in the bottom thickness called for in
> copper nails, that is what I would do too. What is the thickness of
> Superbricks bottom? Two layers of 1/2" I am guessing, and that could
> safely take copper nails.
>
> If recent PB&F designs are any indication, the positive buoyancy
> floatation would be added as 'dual use' hard foam thermal insulation.
>
SUPERBRICK.
I was considering that it could be built from a single course of 5/8"
MDO - which I have on hand. There seems to be a considerable amount of
internal framing to stiffen it, and with 10z glass and extra taping to
the exterior chines would seem quite adequate for sheltered use. But I
was also considering a CLAM SKIF - like central shoe keel blending in
with the box cutwater.
Then the copper cladding option appeared which would obviously require
a thicker bottom as well as the challenge of attachment thereof as
well as the added expense.
When googling copper sheeting I got some options when it comes to
cladding that is less expensive, at least when it comes to roofing.
They are zinc and aluminum.
Then when looking at pontoon boats and their trailiers I got to
wondering how the cost of a simple aluminum hull would compare to the
cost and complication a thicker hull with a copper bottom.
So I posted a file to the SUPERBRICK folder that is included in the
BRICK DINGY folder at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Brick%20Dinghy/
It is called "SuperbrickIsometric". The isometric diagram in solid
lines would define the hull built from aluminum. Then the rest of the
boat would be constructed from plywood and lined with foam insulation
as Bruce suggested.
The main challenge would be how to attach the plywood upper strcture
to the aluminum hull, and how the cost would compare to how Bolger
suggests it be built?
It would certainly be a low maintenance solution I would suggest. But
only a pipe dream most likely.
Nels
A Google search show that copper wholesales about $2 a pound in bulk.
On Resolution, I recall, Phil Bolger nailed the copper sheet on using
copper nails, that is what I would do too. What is the thickness of
Superbricks bottom? Two layers of 1/2" I am guessing, and that could
safely take copper nails.
If recent PB&F designs are any indication, the positive buoyancy
floatation would be added as 'dual use' hard foam thermal insulation.
...
On Resolution, I recall, Phil Bolger nailed the copper sheet on using
copper nails, that is what I would do too. What is the thickness of
Superbricks bottom? Two layers of 1/2" I am guessing, and that could
safely take copper nails.
If recent PB&F designs are any indication, the positive buoyancy
floatation would be added as 'dual use' hard foam thermal insulation.
>consider heavy copper plate on the outside of the bottom; expensivebut never needing
...
> about positive buoyancy when building starts....
> Gene T.
JJ,
A partial exerpt from the attached SIGNED note:
"She can stand the weight of several people topside if built and ballasted as specified (more ballast up to ?? 1000 lbs. would do no harm if well spread out and secured. Might consider heavy copper plate on the outside of the bottom; expensive but never needing cleaning.).
She can stand any amount of wind or sea (given sea room) barring a very big curling breaker that would crush her or otherwise cause major structural failure; check with us about positive buoyancy when building starts.
Sincerely,
Phil Bolger"
That is it on the how to on the copper. If I get to do it I'll ask. I want it secure but I don't want nail holes in my bottom. The cleanest would be overlap the bow and stern and nail or screw above the waterline and epoxy the whole thing on. The actual thickness I am sure will be determined by cost. Imagine a 1/16 thick roll, 8 foot across that could be rolled on, squeezing all the airgaps out of the epoxy....... Ok, I'm back... This is a boat that I would want to keep in the water so a bottom that would tend itself would be good. With the nice rocker it would be easy to build a scrubber of rope to clean the bottom from topside. I'll have to move the truck out of the garage, it won't fit out of the basement like my schooner will....
Oh, the plans were dated August '05.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: JJ Johnson <jjoftheusa@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:59:33 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
Gene T
Just out of curiosity, how thick does Bolger say this copper bottom
should be and about how much should it weigh? Is it supposed to be
brought up to the water line or just on the bottom? Any suggestion as
how to fasten it to the hull? As I said, inquireing minds just want
to know...
JJ
A partial exerpt from the attached SIGNED note:
"She can stand the weight of several people topside if built and ballasted as specified (more ballast up to ?? 1000 lbs. would do no harm if well spread out and secured. Might consider heavy copper plate on the outside of the bottom; expensive but never needing cleaning.).
She can stand any amount of wind or sea (given sea room) barring a very big curling breaker that would crush her or otherwise cause major structural failure; check with us about positive buoyancy when building starts.
Sincerely,
Phil Bolger"
That is it on the how to on the copper. If I get to do it I'll ask. I want it secure but I don't want nail holes in my bottom. The cleanest would be overlap the bow and stern and nail or screw above the waterline and epoxy the whole thing on. The actual thickness I am sure will be determined by cost. Imagine a 1/16 thick roll, 8 foot across that could be rolled on, squeezing all the airgaps out of the epoxy....... Ok, I'm back... This is a boat that I would want to keep in the water so a bottom that would tend itself would be good. With the nice rocker it would be easy to build a scrubber of rope to clean the bottom from topside. I'll have to move the truck out of the garage, it won't fit out of the basement like my schooner will....
Oh, the plans were dated August '05.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: JJ Johnson <jjoftheusa@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:59:33 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
Gene T
Just out of curiosity, how thick does Bolger say this copper bottom
should be and about how much should it weigh? Is it supposed to be
brought up to the water line or just on the bottom? Any suggestion as
how to fasten it to the hull? As I said, inquireing minds just want
to know...
JJ
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Gene T <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
>
> Nels,
> The current SuperBrick plans have the Box keel cutwater, goes back
about half way. The cutwater has its own rocker. Kind of ends even
with the depest part of the hull and at most extends an inch or so
beyond the front.. I don't recall the price, I can scratch around
for that. You are so right about the view from bed. We will see
what happens. Bolger suggests a solid copper plate bottom. Still
working on the Single Handed Schooner.... Ready to put the deck on.
>
> Gene T.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Nels <arvent@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:32:35 PM
> Subject: [bolger] SUPERBRICK
>
> Dagnab it somebody brought uf the brick threads again and I was
> looking at the SUPERBRICK article once again in BWAOM.
>
> That has to be about the best interior layouts of any 20 foot boat
> ever designed! What a great bedroom view! Also the cockpit looks
like
> a fine spot to get some sun and enjoy the scenery from with the
engine
> shrouded over for quietness when motoring.
>
> Two things I am wondering about. First - would SB benefit from a
box
> cutwater like FASTBRICK has? How far aft would one carry that
> cutwater? Perhaps like a shallow box keel al la CLAM SKIFF?
Secondly
> would it then benefit from having the mast more on the centerline?
Or
> would it just get in the way there with no real benefits?
>
> Anybody in this group ever end up buying the plans?
>
> How much?
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gene T
Just out of curiosity, how thick does Bolger say this copper bottom
should be and about how much should it weigh? Is it supposed to be
brought up to the water line or just on the bottom? Any suggestion as
how to fasten it to the hull? As I said, inquireing minds just want
to know...
JJ
Just out of curiosity, how thick does Bolger say this copper bottom
should be and about how much should it weigh? Is it supposed to be
brought up to the water line or just on the bottom? Any suggestion as
how to fasten it to the hull? As I said, inquireing minds just want
to know...
JJ
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Gene T <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
>
> Nels,
> The current SuperBrick plans have the Box keel cutwater, goes back
about half way. The cutwater has its own rocker. Kind of ends even
with the depest part of the hull and at most extends an inch or so
beyond the front.. I don't recall the price, I can scratch around
for that. You are so right about the view from bed. We will see
what happens. Bolger suggests a solid copper plate bottom. Still
working on the Single Handed Schooner.... Ready to put the deck on.
>
> Gene T.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Nels <arvent@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:32:35 PM
> Subject: [bolger] SUPERBRICK
>
> Dagnab it somebody brought uf the brick threads again and I was
> looking at the SUPERBRICK article once again in BWAOM.
>
> That has to be about the best interior layouts of any 20 foot boat
> ever designed! What a great bedroom view! Also the cockpit looks
like
> a fine spot to get some sun and enjoy the scenery from with the
engine
> shrouded over for quietness when motoring.
>
> Two things I am wondering about. First - would SB benefit from a
box
> cutwater like FASTBRICK has? How far aft would one carry that
> cutwater? Perhaps like a shallow box keel al la CLAM SKIFF?
Secondly
> would it then benefit from having the mast more on the centerline?
Or
> would it just get in the way there with no real benefits?
>
> Anybody in this group ever end up buying the plans?
>
> How much?
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Bruce,
"Waterline displacement 3350 lb." I assume that the cutwater is not flooded. Also there is no hole from the main cabin through to the cutwater. Which thinking about it is good, safety wise. Is it typical to leave an enclosed place that can not be accessed. If the original hull surface were finished first which would be easiest and the cutwater added afterward then rot in the cutwater would not effect the main hull, assuming an epoxy finish on the original hull. The cutwater could also be heavily preserved with no risk of the chemicals getting into the living quarters. Ok, I'm not worried about the cutwater anymore. "So many boats to build, so much wasted time", or something like that!
Sincerely,
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:09:40 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
"Waterline displacement 3350 lb." I assume that the cutwater is not flooded. Also there is no hole from the main cabin through to the cutwater. Which thinking about it is good, safety wise. Is it typical to leave an enclosed place that can not be accessed. If the original hull surface were finished first which would be easiest and the cutwater added afterward then rot in the cutwater would not effect the main hull, assuming an epoxy finish on the original hull. The cutwater could also be heavily preserved with no risk of the chemicals getting into the living quarters. Ok, I'm not worried about the cutwater anymore. "So many boats to build, so much wasted time", or something like that!
Sincerely,
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:09:40 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
On 3/22/06, Gene T <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
> Bolger 5 photos, More Gene's Photos folder.
Thanks for sharing that! You seem to be the closest to actualy
building a Superbrick, holding a genuine set of plans. I am curious
what the note on the plan says, just below the cutwater...hmmm, it
appears that the cutwater is free flooding?
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 3/22/06, Gene T <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
building a Superbrick, holding a genuine set of plans. I am curious
what the note on the plan says, just below the cutwater...hmmm, it
appears that the cutwater is free flooding?
> Bolger 5 photos, More Gene's Photos folder.Thanks for sharing that! You seem to be the closest to actualy
building a Superbrick, holding a genuine set of plans. I am curious
what the note on the plan says, just below the cutwater...hmmm, it
appears that the cutwater is free flooding?
Nels,
Bolger 5 photos, More Gene's Photos folder. Couldn't add to my old folder with the new photo system. Super Brick is a very useful boat. All I feel it is missing are a couple of indoor lounge chairs. I think if I just tell people it is a house boat, they will back off and not say what a poor sailboat it is (which it might not be!). It has everything, even hanging lockers at the aft end of the quarter berths......
Phil did suggest putting a copper bottom on it, I assume for protection and weight. I am not sure how to do that best. Gluing it on seems the only logical choice with a layer of epoxy on dynel under it rather than wood with water . And minimize the nails or screws, possibly only around the edges. I should try to price the copper, I might just forget it! He also said to get back with him once I have started to discuss the positive flotation!
The SHS if coming along slow. New heat pump and tub and above stove microwave with extensive vent work with lots of wall and cieling work have slowed that down but I am rolling again. I got some 2x6's to make forms to bend the carlens but decided to just put the 2x6 pieces in. The douglas fir in 3/4 thick sections was not going to bend enough for the cockpit sides and the "other" wood of that size was all knots (and pre bent on its own but not correctly) so once I cut out the 2x6 it seemed logical. Especially with my 250 lb payload walking on the deck carrying the 100+lb daggerboard.
----- Original Message ----
From: Nels <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:17:03 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
Bolger 5 photos, More Gene's Photos folder. Couldn't add to my old folder with the new photo system. Super Brick is a very useful boat. All I feel it is missing are a couple of indoor lounge chairs. I think if I just tell people it is a house boat, they will back off and not say what a poor sailboat it is (which it might not be!). It has everything, even hanging lockers at the aft end of the quarter berths......
Phil did suggest putting a copper bottom on it, I assume for protection and weight. I am not sure how to do that best. Gluing it on seems the only logical choice with a layer of epoxy on dynel under it rather than wood with water . And minimize the nails or screws, possibly only around the edges. I should try to price the copper, I might just forget it! He also said to get back with him once I have started to discuss the positive flotation!
The SHS if coming along slow. New heat pump and tub and above stove microwave with extensive vent work with lots of wall and cieling work have slowed that down but I am rolling again. I got some 2x6's to make forms to bend the carlens but decided to just put the 2x6 pieces in. The douglas fir in 3/4 thick sections was not going to bend enough for the cockpit sides and the "other" wood of that size was all knots (and pre bent on its own but not correctly) so once I cut out the 2x6 it seemed logical. Especially with my 250 lb payload walking on the deck carrying the 100+lb daggerboard.
----- Original Message ----
From: Nels <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:17:03 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: SUPERBRICK
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Gene T <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
>
> Nels,
> The current SuperBrick plans have the Box keel cutwater, goes back
about half way. The cutwater has its own rocker. Kind of ends even
with the depest part of the hull and at most extends an inch or so
beyond the front.. I don't recall the price, I can scratch around
for that. You are so right about the view from bed. We will see
what happens. Bolger suggests a solid copper plate bottom. Still
working on the Single Handed Schooner.... Ready to put the deck on.
>
> Gene T.
Hi,
Thanks for that information. So the plans have been upgraded? Is
there anywhere that one could see what all they consist of?
The $300 price sounds logical so that is close enough.
Nels
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Gene T <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
with the depest part of the hull and at most extends an inch or so
beyond the front.. I don't recall the price, I can scratch around
for that. You are so right about the view from bed. We will see
what happens. Bolger suggests a solid copper plate bottom. Still
working on the Single Handed Schooner.... Ready to put the deck on.
Thanks for that information. So the plans have been upgraded? Is
there anywhere that one could see what all they consist of?
The $300 price sounds logical so that is close enough.
Nels
>about half way. The cutwater has its own rocker. Kind of ends even
> Nels,
> The current SuperBrick plans have the Box keel cutwater, goes back
with the depest part of the hull and at most extends an inch or so
beyond the front.. I don't recall the price, I can scratch around
for that. You are so right about the view from bed. We will see
what happens. Bolger suggests a solid copper plate bottom. Still
working on the Single Handed Schooner.... Ready to put the deck on.
>Hi,
> Gene T.
Thanks for that information. So the plans have been upgraded? Is
there anywhere that one could see what all they consist of?
The $300 price sounds logical so that is close enough.
Nels
Nels,
The current SuperBrick plans have the Box keel cutwater, goes back about half way. The cutwater has its own rocker. Kind of ends even with the depest part of the hull and at most extends an inch or so beyond the front.. I don't recall the price, I can scratch around for that. You are so right about the view from bed. We will see what happens. Bolger suggests a solid copper plate bottom. Still working on the Single Handed Schooner.... Ready to put the deck on.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Nels <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:32:35 PM
Subject: [bolger] SUPERBRICK
Dagnab it somebody brought uf the brick threads again and I was
looking at the SUPERBRICK article once again in BWAOM.
That has to be about the best interior layouts of any 20 foot boat
ever designed! What a great bedroom view! Also the cockpit looks like
a fine spot to get some sun and enjoy the scenery from with the engine
shrouded over for quietness when motoring.
Two things I am wondering about. First - would SB benefit from a box
cutwater like FASTBRICK has? How far aft would one carry that
cutwater? Perhaps like a shallow box keel al la CLAM SKIFF? Secondly
would it then benefit from having the mast more on the centerline? Or
would it just get in the way there with no real benefits?
Anybody in this group ever end up buying the plans?
How much?
Nels
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The current SuperBrick plans have the Box keel cutwater, goes back about half way. The cutwater has its own rocker. Kind of ends even with the depest part of the hull and at most extends an inch or so beyond the front.. I don't recall the price, I can scratch around for that. You are so right about the view from bed. We will see what happens. Bolger suggests a solid copper plate bottom. Still working on the Single Handed Schooner.... Ready to put the deck on.
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Nels <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:32:35 PM
Subject: [bolger] SUPERBRICK
Dagnab it somebody brought uf the brick threads again and I was
looking at the SUPERBRICK article once again in BWAOM.
That has to be about the best interior layouts of any 20 foot boat
ever designed! What a great bedroom view! Also the cockpit looks like
a fine spot to get some sun and enjoy the scenery from with the engine
shrouded over for quietness when motoring.
Two things I am wondering about. First - would SB benefit from a box
cutwater like FASTBRICK has? How far aft would one carry that
cutwater? Perhaps like a shallow box keel al la CLAM SKIFF? Secondly
would it then benefit from having the mast more on the centerline? Or
would it just get in the way there with no real benefits?
Anybody in this group ever end up buying the plans?
How much?
Nels
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
I'm thinking that if one had the cutwater added then it would be
beneficial to sail in a more upright attitude - which would be
easier with a mast on the centerline. Also when the yard was lowered
it too would lie along the centerline - making is easier to install
a boom tent/awning or winter cover.
Both perhaps of minor concern over the advantages of the off-set
mast. The "disgruntlement factor" by what Bolger refers to
as "Proper Boatmen" would not be as great for sure:-)
Thanks Bruce, You model depiction just makes it more enticing:-)
I can envision a boarding ladder incorporated into the rudder
assembly.
Also I can see it being towed with a pnotoon boat trailer, so the 8'
beam would not present that much of a challenge.
And find it interesting that this design is included in BWAOM Part
Ten "Real Cruisers"!
Nels
> Bad idea, I am pretty sure. 1) would impact access to the berth,2)
> would complicate the drainage of the mast well 3) would require adoesn't "look
> redesign of the sheeting, which looks pretty elegant right now.
> And...be real, is your concern that an off-center mast
> right", while in the same train of thought seriously considering aOf course not!!
> Superbrick? :)
I'm thinking that if one had the cutwater added then it would be
beneficial to sail in a more upright attitude - which would be
easier with a mast on the centerline. Also when the yard was lowered
it too would lie along the centerline - making is easier to install
a boom tent/awning or winter cover.
Both perhaps of minor concern over the advantages of the off-set
mast. The "disgruntlement factor" by what Bolger refers to
as "Proper Boatmen" would not be as great for sure:-)
Thanks Bruce, You model depiction just makes it more enticing:-)
I can envision a boarding ladder incorporated into the rudder
assembly.
Also I can see it being towed with a pnotoon boat trailer, so the 8'
beam would not present that much of a challenge.
And find it interesting that this design is included in BWAOM Part
Ten "Real Cruisers"!
Nels
> That has to be about the best interior layouts of any 20 foot boatYou neglected to mention the coolest feature, the forward deck, above
> ever designed! What a great bedroom view! Also the cockpit looks like
> a fine spot to get some sun and enjoy the scenery from with the engine
> shrouded over for quietness when motoring.
which you could hang a 'dancing queen' mirror ball and hold disco
parties.
> Two things I am wondering about. First - would SB benefit from a boxI asked Phil Bolger this question, sending him this sketch
> cutwater like FASTBRICK has? How far aft would one carry that
> cutwater? Perhaps like a shallow box keel al la CLAM SKIFF?
http://hallman.org/bolger/Superbrick/alt2.gif
and he replied that it *might* be an improvement, but that it would impact
headroom in the head. [pun?]
The advantage, I argued, and (I think PCB appreciated) was the reduction
in ballast, and ease in getting the hull between the wheels of a trailer.
Here is another idea I considered, but only a dream:
http://hallman.org/bolger/Superbrick/AlternateSuperbrickHull.gif
http://hallman.org/bolger/Superbrick/althull.gif
and, of course, a model
http://hallman.org/bolger/Superbrick/
> SecondlyBad idea, I am pretty sure. 1) would impact access to the berth, 2)
> would it then benefit from having the mast more on the centerline? Or
> would it just get in the way there with no real benefits?
would complicate the drainage of the mast well 3) would require a
redesign of the sheeting, which looks pretty elegant right now.
And...be real, is your concern that an off-center mast doesn't "look
right", while in the same train of thought seriously considering a
Superbrick? :)
The offcenter mast/Lateen rig in a Tortoise works perfectly fine.
> How much?$300 I think.
Dagnab it somebody brought uf the brick threads again and I was
looking at the SUPERBRICK article once again in BWAOM.
That has to be about the best interior layouts of any 20 foot boat
ever designed! What a great bedroom view! Also the cockpit looks like
a fine spot to get some sun and enjoy the scenery from with the engine
shrouded over for quietness when motoring.
Two things I am wondering about. First - would SB benefit from a box
cutwater like FASTBRICK has? How far aft would one carry that
cutwater? Perhaps like a shallow box keel al la CLAM SKIFF? Secondly
would it then benefit from having the mast more on the centerline? Or
would it just get in the way there with no real benefits?
Anybody in this group ever end up buying the plans?
How much?
Nels
looking at the SUPERBRICK article once again in BWAOM.
That has to be about the best interior layouts of any 20 foot boat
ever designed! What a great bedroom view! Also the cockpit looks like
a fine spot to get some sun and enjoy the scenery from with the engine
shrouded over for quietness when motoring.
Two things I am wondering about. First - would SB benefit from a box
cutwater like FASTBRICK has? How far aft would one carry that
cutwater? Perhaps like a shallow box keel al la CLAM SKIFF? Secondly
would it then benefit from having the mast more on the centerline? Or
would it just get in the way there with no real benefits?
Anybody in this group ever end up buying the plans?
How much?
Nels
...DOES ANY ONE KNOW IF A SUPERBRICK WAS EVER BUILT OR MIGHT BE UNDER
CONSTRUCTION???
CONSTRUCTION???