Re: [bolger] Re: Tortoise rudder. in the centre or at the corner?
>The seat of Tortoise is for rowing only, it is intended to be removed
> I didn't know about 'proper' or not, but Mr Bolger obviously thinks
> it would be OK to sit in the middle because that is where the seat
> is - also looking at the position of the rowlocks in the Tortoise it
> appears to need the oarsman to face forwards.
for sailing. Yes, the boat rows in the 'forward' direction with an
individual, but 'backwards' with one or two passengers.
I didn't know about 'proper' or not, but Mr Bolger obviously thinks
it would be OK to sit in the middle because that is where the seat
is - also looking at the position of the rowlocks in the Tortoise it
appears to need the oarsman to face forwards. It was for these
reasons that my question really arose.
In the meanwhile - if anyone can explain to me the differences
between a Tortoise and a Big tortoise I would be grateful.
Thanks in advance...
jon
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, W & C White <omegacubed@...> wrote:
it would be OK to sit in the middle because that is where the seat
is - also looking at the position of the rowlocks in the Tortoise it
appears to need the oarsman to face forwards. It was for these
reasons that my question really arose.
In the meanwhile - if anyone can explain to me the differences
between a Tortoise and a Big tortoise I would be grateful.
Thanks in advance...
jon
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, W & C White <omegacubed@...> wrote:
>the
> Group --
>
> The only proper way to sail a boat with a tiller is to sit facing
> athwartship and ahead of the tiller. With a rudder in the center of
> stern, one can thus sail comfortably and accurately, sitting eitherto
> windward or to leeward, without tangling with the tiller. The onlyboat
> I couldn't sail this way is the Optimist, where one (and anyoneelse
> over 5'8") has to straddle the daggerboard well ... and even thekids
> for whom it was designed sit athwartship in front of the tiller. Ifyou
> HAVE to sit facing forward, use a hiking stick.
>
> -- Will
>
When I was sailing Optimist prams, it was done on one's knees. And yes, it really did hurt.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: W & C White
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Cc: W & C White
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Tortoise rudder. in the centre or at the corner?
Group --
The only proper way to sail a boat with a tiller is to sit facing
athwartship and ahead of the tiller. With a rudder in the center of the
stern, one can thus sail comfortably and accurately, sitting either to
windward or to leeward, without tangling with the tiller. The only boat
I couldn't sail this way is the Optimist, where one (and anyone else
over 5'8") has to straddle the daggerboard well ... and even the kids
for whom it was designed sit athwartship in front of the tiller. If you
HAVE to sit facing forward, use a hiking stick.
-- Will
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group --
The only proper way to sail a boat with a tiller is to sit facing
athwartship and ahead of the tiller. With a rudder in the center of the
stern, one can thus sail comfortably and accurately, sitting either to
windward or to leeward, without tangling with the tiller. The only boat
I couldn't sail this way is the Optimist, where one (and anyone else
over 5'8") has to straddle the daggerboard well ... and even the kids
for whom it was designed sit athwartship in front of the tiller. If you
HAVE to sit facing forward, use a hiking stick.
-- Will
The only proper way to sail a boat with a tiller is to sit facing
athwartship and ahead of the tiller. With a rudder in the center of the
stern, one can thus sail comfortably and accurately, sitting either to
windward or to leeward, without tangling with the tiller. The only boat
I couldn't sail this way is the Optimist, where one (and anyone else
over 5'8") has to straddle the daggerboard well ... and even the kids
for whom it was designed sit athwartship in front of the tiller. If you
HAVE to sit facing forward, use a hiking stick.
-- Will
How fair or symmetrical does a boat have to be? Good question.
Hulls are dragged by two processes: viscosity and wake. I think the
Reynolds number stipulates thats the the viscous drag is almost
always turbulent. Hence we might as well call viscous drag what most
people call it: turbulent drag. Froude
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Froude> showed us how we can
consider turbulent and wake drag as separate effects.
The easiest to understand is wake drag, which is modelled quite well
by computer codes and experiments on small "toy" boats.
Turbulent drag is another matter. They say that when Richard Feynman
died, he went to heaven and God offered to answer all his questions
about physics. Feynman said he had just two questions: What governs
turbulence, and what governs elementary particles? God said, "Let me
explain elementary particles."
My GUESS is that neither turbulent nor wake drag are strongly
influenced by minor assymetries. This a wonderful topic for
amateur "boatologists" because most professionals don't care. That
is why I wrote my web page, which has been greatly improved since my
last mention of it: <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/>
If you visit it, it wouldn't hurt to click the link to
sitesforteachers. I am having great difficulty getting the message
out to the one kid in ten thousand who might be sufficiently
motivated in this.
Guy
Hulls are dragged by two processes: viscosity and wake. I think the
Reynolds number stipulates thats the the viscous drag is almost
always turbulent. Hence we might as well call viscous drag what most
people call it: turbulent drag. Froude
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Froude> showed us how we can
consider turbulent and wake drag as separate effects.
The easiest to understand is wake drag, which is modelled quite well
by computer codes and experiments on small "toy" boats.
Turbulent drag is another matter. They say that when Richard Feynman
died, he went to heaven and God offered to answer all his questions
about physics. Feynman said he had just two questions: What governs
turbulence, and what governs elementary particles? God said, "Let me
explain elementary particles."
My GUESS is that neither turbulent nor wake drag are strongly
influenced by minor assymetries. This a wonderful topic for
amateur "boatologists" because most professionals don't care. That
is why I wrote my web page, which has been greatly improved since my
last mention of it: <http://faculty.valpo.edu/gvandegr/>
If you visit it, it wouldn't hurt to click the link to
sitesforteachers. I am having great difficulty getting the message
out to the one kid in ten thousand who might be sufficiently
motivated in this.
Guy
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> In my mind this thread raises a question that's been lurking in the
back of my mind for a while. What's all this fetish about symmetry
and fair?
In my mind this thread raises a question that's been lurking in the back of my mind for a while. What's all this fetish about symmetry and fair? Sure, it avoids a lot of questions at the boat shows, but with rigs like sprit booms or junk rigs, the sail is inherently asymmetrical. Fish go quite fast and aren't particularly fair. I've even seen suggestions that the porpoise has a rippled skin to reduce drag (golf ball anyone?).
Can we really measure the effect considering our level of "competition?" Or is it just for pretty? (Too much sweat for pretty to be cost effective.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Can we really measure the effect considering our level of "competition?" Or is it just for pretty? (Too much sweat for pretty to be cost effective.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Crandall
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: [bolger] Tortoise rudder. in the centre or at the corner?
bolger@yahoogroups.comwrote:
> The tiller is awkward when sitting on the centerline, for sure
Yes. You might consider setting up lines in place of the tiller.
> Or set
> it up with twin rudders and dagger boards. I've see a
> couple of sailboats set up twin rudders and the owners
> were happy with the setup.
It's a pretty dang small boat, and not only would the expense of a
duplicate set-up be high, it would add drag, and get in the way. Cannot
recommend it.
> Because the tortoise has an offset mast, it only makes sense for the
> rudder and board to be on the same side.
Well, it didn't make sense to Mr. Bolger. The boat works great as
designed (as you've noted). The best way to "fix" this boat is to work
out a solution using your own behaviors, rather than modifying the
structure and function of the boat.
-Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bolger@yahoogroups.comwrote:
duplicate set-up be high, it would add drag, and get in the way. Cannot
recommend it.
designed (as you've noted). The best way to "fix" this boat is to work
out a solution using your own behaviors, rather than modifying the
structure and function of the boat.
-Chris
> The tiller is awkward when sitting on the centerline, for sureYes. You might consider setting up lines in place of the tiller.
> Or setIt's a pretty dang small boat, and not only would the expense of a
> it up with twin rudders and dagger boards. I've see a
> couple of sailboats set up twin rudders and the owners
> were happy with the setup.
duplicate set-up be high, it would add drag, and get in the way. Cannot
recommend it.
> Because the tortoise has an offset mast, it only makes sense for theWell, it didn't make sense to Mr. Bolger. The boat works great as
> rudder and board to be on the same side.
designed (as you've noted). The best way to "fix" this boat is to work
out a solution using your own behaviors, rather than modifying the
structure and function of the boat.
-Chris
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
rudder and board to be on the same side. The design shows the
rudder amidships but this is clumsy and the rudder offset to the
same side as the mast and board makes sense.
Paul H
(tolerant of those who choose to use dinosaur juice instead of the
wind, but wondering why one would choose them)
>Because the tortoise has an offset mast, it only makes sense for the
> You know this may be a no brainer but why not set the
> boat up so you could move the rudder and dagger board
> from port to starboard at will. So if you had a long
> tack you could set things up to work the best. Or set
> it up with twin rudders and dagger boards. I've see a
> couple of sailboats set up twin rudders and the owners
> were happy with the setup.
>
> Just a blearthing powerboater.
>
> Krissie
rudder and board to be on the same side. The design shows the
rudder amidships but this is clumsy and the rudder offset to the
same side as the mast and board makes sense.
Paul H
(tolerant of those who choose to use dinosaur juice instead of the
wind, but wondering why one would choose them)
You know this may be a no brainer but why not set the
boat up so you could move the rudder and dagger board
from port to starboard at will. So if you had a long
tack you could set things up to work the best. Or set
it up with twin rudders and dagger boards. I've see a
couple of sailboats set up twin rudders and the owners
were happy with the setup.
Just a blearthing powerboater.
Krissie
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
boat up so you could move the rudder and dagger board
from port to starboard at will. So if you had a long
tack you could set things up to work the best. Or set
it up with twin rudders and dagger boards. I've see a
couple of sailboats set up twin rudders and the owners
were happy with the setup.
Just a blearthing powerboater.
Krissie
> The tiller is awkward when sitting on the____________________________________________________________________________________
> centerline, for sure
>
> Though most of the time when sailing I slide my tush
> to the windward
> quarter, and the tiller works fine, right handed on
> a port tack and
> left handed on a starboard tack. Sitting in the
> middle doesn't work
> too well. If the tiller was in the starboard
> corner, sailing on a
> port tack would require a long arm.
>
> By the way, I really have enjoyed sailing my
> Tortoise, it sails to
> windward just fine. Spirited and tons of fun as
> long as the goal is
> to sail around for pure fun. I fondly recall hours
> on end at the lake
> just sailing circles tacking and jibing in variable
> puffy winds hot
> summer blue sky day with the
> fishing/rowing/paddling/swimming kids.
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
> Hi all.Those who know me know that I rarely support 'improving' a Phil
> 1. Has anyone considered placing the rudder on the Tortoise at the aft
> starboard corner on the transom (on the same side as the mast)?
Bolger's design. But in this case, I think it could be worth a try.
In the worst case, you won't like it and you can reconsider and move
the rudder back on centerline.
This photo is a bit of an illusion because I think it was just taken
as I was beginning a tack.
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1376787773051159125IOijyW
The tiller is awkward when sitting on the centerline, for sure
Though most of the time when sailing I slide my tush to the windward
quarter, and the tiller works fine, right handed on a port tack and
left handed on a starboard tack. Sitting in the middle doesn't work
too well. If the tiller was in the starboard corner, sailing on a
port tack would require a long arm.
By the way, I really have enjoyed sailing my Tortoise, it sails to
windward just fine. Spirited and tons of fun as long as the goal is
to sail around for pure fun. I fondly recall hours on end at the lake
just sailing circles tacking and jibing in variable puffy winds hot
summer blue sky day with the fishing/rowing/paddling/swimming kids.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jonny_stone2002" <jonathan@...>
wrote:
thinking about moving the rudder to the starboard side of the
transom, it does get in the way with two people on board.
We only were able to use it a few times due to other obligations
this summer and haven't really explored its performance too much.
We did the test sailing in a small local lake that was in places too
shallow for the bilgeboard to be fully down. This spring we will
take it up to Lake Lanier and see how it really sails.
Paul H.
wrote:
>I built one last summer to teach my son how to sail in. I have been
thinking about moving the rudder to the starboard side of the
transom, it does get in the way with two people on board.
We only were able to use it a few times due to other obligations
this summer and haven't really explored its performance too much.
We did the test sailing in a small local lake that was in places too
shallow for the bilgeboard to be fully down. This spring we will
take it up to Lake Lanier and see how it really sails.
Paul H.
> Hi all.aft
> 1. Has anyone considered placing the rudder on the Tortoise at the
> starboard corner on the transom (on the same side as the mast)? Isee
> that the plans suggest it should be in the middle, but i wonder ifit
> gets in the way there being behind ones back. If it were at thecorner
> one could face forward, sitting in the middle, and comfortablystear
> with the right hand.work.
> I am interested to know if this has been done or if it doesn't
>me, my
> 2. Also - with the tortoise (The payson big tortoise ) can i fit
> wife (small) and two daughters (aged 4 and 8) whilst rowing ?windward
>
> 3. with just me, or perhaps me + 1, would a tortoise sail to
> at all?(rare)
>
> 4. is it difficult to fit an outboard plate to a tortoise.
> Many thanks in advance of your collective help, from one of your
> English members.
> Jon
>
Hi all.
1. Has anyone considered placing the rudder on the Tortoise at the aft
starboard corner on the transom (on the same side as the mast)? I see
that the plans suggest it should be in the middle, but i wonder if it
gets in the way there being behind ones back. If it were at the corner
one could face forward, sitting in the middle, and comfortably stear
with the right hand.
I am interested to know if this has been done or if it doesn't work.
2. Also - with the tortoise (The payson big tortoise ) can i fit me, my
wife (small) and two daughters (aged 4 and 8) whilst rowing ?
3. with just me, or perhaps me + 1, would a tortoise sail to windward
at all?
4. is it difficult to fit an outboard plate to a tortoise.
Many thanks in advance of your collective help, from one of your (rare)
English members.
Jon
1. Has anyone considered placing the rudder on the Tortoise at the aft
starboard corner on the transom (on the same side as the mast)? I see
that the plans suggest it should be in the middle, but i wonder if it
gets in the way there being behind ones back. If it were at the corner
one could face forward, sitting in the middle, and comfortably stear
with the right hand.
I am interested to know if this has been done or if it doesn't work.
2. Also - with the tortoise (The payson big tortoise ) can i fit me, my
wife (small) and two daughters (aged 4 and 8) whilst rowing ?
3. with just me, or perhaps me + 1, would a tortoise sail to windward
at all?
4. is it difficult to fit an outboard plate to a tortoise.
Many thanks in advance of your collective help, from one of your (rare)
English members.
Jon