Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood for Cartoon 40
I agree about the best way to avoid rot in plywood is to keep it high
and dry when not in use. I also agree that my ten sheet estimate is
short, and I agree five on the bottom and four on the top. Four
frames could do it, cut cleverly from a sheet or a sheet and a half?
Rudder and center plane, another sheet. I think 14 sheets is a
prudent order, considering you are rural and have such an excellent
shop to store any left over ply for a future project.
and dry when not in use. I also agree that my ten sheet estimate is
short, and I agree five on the bottom and four on the top. Four
frames could do it, cut cleverly from a sheet or a sheet and a half?
Rudder and center plane, another sheet. I think 14 sheets is a
prudent order, considering you are rural and have such an excellent
shop to store any left over ply for a future project.
Hi Bruce, and all who responded to my message,
Thanks for the comments on plywood and especially on Edensaw. They
will probably be slightly less expensive on shipping to CO than Boulter.
boat that we can sail for many years. Stored out of the water in our
dry climate here in CO, it should be possible for it to last a long
time even with less than premium plywood, as long as it's properly
sheathed and kept dry inside. My first boat, #571 Common Sense Skiff,
was built in 1993 with AC fir and BC pine ply and cheap inland cedar
house trim for framing. I recently was contacted by somebody
interested in buying it from the present owner and found out she was
asking 20% more than I sold it to her for!
Our Light (cat) Schooner was built with Home Depot "certified" sanded
ply and is doing fine at age four, stored under a cover outside.
However, I worry some about that one, since I've had a few spots
require repair due to interior voids. I'll bet it lasts 6-10 years,
though.
Most everything else I've built (7 other boats) has used AC "Superply"
by Roseburg that I can get up in Denver. One exception is in the sides
of our FastBrick, which are AC fir. No problems yet, but none of the
boats are more than three years old, and only see water a few times
each season. It feels pretty rich to ask the wife "which boat(s) shall
we use this weekend?", but having a selection of simple plywood
row/paddle/sail/motor boats didn't cost us even half of what they want
for new 14' aluminum fishing boat package at the local boatshop.
The main reason to consider premium plywood for this boat is that I'd
like to try something with fewer voids, less prone to
splitting/splintering, and perhaps lighter as well. Okoume and Meranti
both look very attractive for this purpose. I can't seem to find MDO
around here, but I could try asking a sign shop.
How did you come up with 10 sheets? I can't get it under 14, although
I haven't accurately drawn out the parts to scale yet. Heck, I see
five sheets for the bottom planking and at least four for the deck
right off the bat.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Thanks for the comments on plywood and especially on Edensaw. They
will probably be slightly less expensive on shipping to CO than Boulter.
> I see it possible with ten sheets of plywood and 100 to 200 hours ofsnip...
> labor to build a 125% Cartoon 40. Depending on your point of view,
> this could be viewed as a fun, quick and dirty, semi disposable boat.
> I guess I am always the optimist, favoring two cheap boats over oneI wasn't planning on a gold-plater, but I'd like it to be a long-lived
> gold plated boat.
boat that we can sail for many years. Stored out of the water in our
dry climate here in CO, it should be possible for it to last a long
time even with less than premium plywood, as long as it's properly
sheathed and kept dry inside. My first boat, #571 Common Sense Skiff,
was built in 1993 with AC fir and BC pine ply and cheap inland cedar
house trim for framing. I recently was contacted by somebody
interested in buying it from the present owner and found out she was
asking 20% more than I sold it to her for!
Our Light (cat) Schooner was built with Home Depot "certified" sanded
ply and is doing fine at age four, stored under a cover outside.
However, I worry some about that one, since I've had a few spots
require repair due to interior voids. I'll bet it lasts 6-10 years,
though.
Most everything else I've built (7 other boats) has used AC "Superply"
by Roseburg that I can get up in Denver. One exception is in the sides
of our FastBrick, which are AC fir. No problems yet, but none of the
boats are more than three years old, and only see water a few times
each season. It feels pretty rich to ask the wife "which boat(s) shall
we use this weekend?", but having a selection of simple plywood
row/paddle/sail/motor boats didn't cost us even half of what they want
for new 14' aluminum fishing boat package at the local boatshop.
The main reason to consider premium plywood for this boat is that I'd
like to try something with fewer voids, less prone to
splitting/splintering, and perhaps lighter as well. Okoume and Meranti
both look very attractive for this purpose. I can't seem to find MDO
around here, but I could try asking a sign shop.
How did you come up with 10 sheets? I can't get it under 14, although
I haven't accurately drawn out the parts to scale yet. Heck, I see
five sheets for the bottom planking and at least four for the deck
right off the bat.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
They bring it to the barge for free, which works really well for me,
barge freight is low to SE AK.
HJ
lancasterdennis wrote:
barge freight is low to SE AK.
HJ
lancasterdennis wrote:
> ---
> I do not live that far away from Port Townsend. Shipping is free if
> you spend over $300. That may only be for what they consider "local"
> truck runs, as one of their trucks does come up here to Bellingham
> twice a week. You will need to call them and see what shipping would
> be for your area. They ship all over the place.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
>> If you don't mind me asking, how much is shipping from them to you
>>
> and in approximately what part of the world do you live? Thanks.
>
>
---
I do not live that far away from Port Townsend. Shipping is free if
you spend over $300. That may only be for what they consider "local"
truck runs, as one of their trucks does come up here to Bellingham
twice a week. You will need to call them and see what shipping would
be for your area. They ship all over the place.
Dennis
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" <inspirfe@...> wrote:
I do not live that far away from Port Townsend. Shipping is free if
you spend over $300. That may only be for what they consider "local"
truck runs, as one of their trucks does come up here to Bellingham
twice a week. You will need to call them and see what shipping would
be for your area. They ship all over the place.
Dennis
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>and in approximately what part of the world do you live? Thanks.
> If you don't mind me asking, how much is shipping from them to you
>work
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: lancasterdennis
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:12 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood for Cartoon 40
>
>
> --
> I have purchased all my wood from Edensaw. Wonderful folks to
> with and they pretty much have it all. For my Oldshoe, I am usingthis
> Okoume. Stuff is beautiful and near perfect, no voids.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis
>
> - Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
> <jon@> wrote:
> >
> > Lofting Cartoon 40 (aka Casual Sailing Dinghy) will commence
> > coming weekend. My knees asked me to construct a lofting benchto
> > keep them off the floor, so I built a 16' x 4' bench with 3/4"OSB
> > top. On top of that, I attached two sheets of 1/4" ply andcoated
> > them with white primer. The idea is that I can loft the boat,then
> > remove the 1/4" ply and use the bench as a work bench. I'llneed a
> > bench like this for Auriga's bulkheads anyway.stretch
> >
> > I'm planning to build the boat at 125% scale (the 19'-5"
> PCBit
> > suggested in Small Boat Journal), but loft it at 1/2 of that so
> > will fit within the length of the bench. Small errors will onlybe
> > doubled, so it should be good to about 1/16" full size, notend
> counting
> > any woodbutchery.
> >
> > For this boat, I'm considering spending the money on some high-
> > plywood instead of AC for a change, but that requires orderingfrom
> > afar and I won't be able to examine the material first. Bolgerlisted
> calls
> > for 1/2" throughout, and 14 sheets should do it for this boat.
> With
> > that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on the species
> > below, especially regarding workability/machineability,strength
> > compared to AC Fir, and bending characteristics. Compared toabout
> > $50/sheet for local AC, is there a compelling reason to use anyof
> > these species?number
> >
> > Okoume
> >
> > Meranti
> >
> > Sapele
> >
> > Khaya
> >
> > I can get Doug Fir marine ply locally some of the time, but the
> last
> > time I bought any it was expensive and had an unacceptable
> ofshipping
> > voids. I'd use the AC I can get before buying this stuff again.
> >
> > Also, if anyone cares to recommend a supplier with a good
> > record, I'd appreciate it - right now I'm considering Boulterand
> > Edensaw, but have never ordered from either.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.
> >
> > Jon Kolb
> > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> several hundred hours and a couple of thousand dollars into a boatI see it possible with ten sheets of plywood and 100 to 200 hours of
labor to build a 125% Cartoon 40. Depending on your point of view,
this could be viewed as a fun, quick and dirty, semi disposable boat.
Certainly achievable on the cheap.
10 sheets 1/2" ply x $25 = $250
3 gallons cheap epoxy = $150
Fiberglass, eBay $3/yard = $100
Lumber = $100
Polytarp and rope = $50
Paint = $50
===========================
low ball budget $650
I guess I am always the optimist, favoring two cheap boats over one
gold plated boat.
If you don't mind me asking, how much is shipping from them to you and in approximately what part of the world do you live? Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: lancasterdennis
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:12 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood for Cartoon 40
--
I have purchased all my wood from Edensaw. Wonderful folks to work
with and they pretty much have it all. For my Oldshoe, I am using
Okoume. Stuff is beautiful and near perfect, no voids.
Regards,
Dennis
- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> Lofting Cartoon 40 (aka Casual Sailing Dinghy) will commence this
> coming weekend. My knees asked me to construct a lofting bench to
> keep them off the floor, so I built a 16' x 4' bench with 3/4" OSB
> top. On top of that, I attached two sheets of 1/4" ply and coated
> them with white primer. The idea is that I can loft the boat, then
> remove the 1/4" ply and use the bench as a work bench. I'll need a
> bench like this for Auriga's bulkheads anyway.
>
> I'm planning to build the boat at 125% scale (the 19'-5" stretch
PCB
> suggested in Small Boat Journal), but loft it at 1/2 of that so it
> will fit within the length of the bench. Small errors will only be
> doubled, so it should be good to about 1/16" full size, not
counting
> any woodbutchery.
>
> For this boat, I'm considering spending the money on some high-end
> plywood instead of AC for a change, but that requires ordering from
> afar and I won't be able to examine the material first. Bolger
calls
> for 1/2" throughout, and 14 sheets should do it for this boat.
With
> that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on the species listed
> below, especially regarding workability/machineability, strength
> compared to AC Fir, and bending characteristics. Compared to about
> $50/sheet for local AC, is there a compelling reason to use any of
> these species?
>
> Okoume
>
> Meranti
>
> Sapele
>
> Khaya
>
> I can get Doug Fir marine ply locally some of the time, but the
last
> time I bought any it was expensive and had an unacceptable number
of
> voids. I'd use the AC I can get before buying this stuff again.
>
> Also, if anyone cares to recommend a supplier with a good shipping
> record, I'd appreciate it - right now I'm considering Boulter and
> Edensaw, but have never ordered from either.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
I have purchased all my wood from Edensaw. Wonderful folks to work
with and they pretty much have it all. For my Oldshoe, I am using
Okoume. Stuff is beautiful and near perfect, no voids.
Regards,
Dennis
- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
I have purchased all my wood from Edensaw. Wonderful folks to work
with and they pretty much have it all. For my Oldshoe, I am using
Okoume. Stuff is beautiful and near perfect, no voids.
Regards,
Dennis
- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>PCB
> Lofting Cartoon 40 (aka Casual Sailing Dinghy) will commence this
> coming weekend. My knees asked me to construct a lofting bench to
> keep them off the floor, so I built a 16' x 4' bench with 3/4" OSB
> top. On top of that, I attached two sheets of 1/4" ply and coated
> them with white primer. The idea is that I can loft the boat, then
> remove the 1/4" ply and use the bench as a work bench. I'll need a
> bench like this for Auriga's bulkheads anyway.
>
> I'm planning to build the boat at 125% scale (the 19'-5" stretch
> suggested in Small Boat Journal), but loft it at 1/2 of that so itcounting
> will fit within the length of the bench. Small errors will only be
> doubled, so it should be good to about 1/16" full size, not
> any woodbutchery.calls
>
> For this boat, I'm considering spending the money on some high-end
> plywood instead of AC for a change, but that requires ordering from
> afar and I won't be able to examine the material first. Bolger
> for 1/2" throughout, and 14 sheets should do it for this boat.With
> that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on the species listedlast
> below, especially regarding workability/machineability, strength
> compared to AC Fir, and bending characteristics. Compared to about
> $50/sheet for local AC, is there a compelling reason to use any of
> these species?
>
> Okoume
>
> Meranti
>
> Sapele
>
> Khaya
>
> I can get Doug Fir marine ply locally some of the time, but the
> time I bought any it was expensive and had an unacceptable numberof
> voids. I'd use the AC I can get before buying this stuff again.
>
> Also, if anyone cares to recommend a supplier with a good shipping
> record, I'd appreciate it - right now I'm considering Boulter and
> Edensaw, but have never ordered from either.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
I have had hugely variable experiences with AC. I personally would not
consider it on a boat this size. The grief of watching a sheet
delaminate after putting several hundred hours and a couple of thousand
dollars into a boat is just too much. I would suggest you consider MDO
as well as marine plywood, especially if you are going to order out of
the Pacific NW
I am a very satisfied customer of Edensaw. I always recommend them. I
have used their Meranti for the last boats that I have bought marine
plywood for.
HJ
adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
consider it on a boat this size. The grief of watching a sheet
delaminate after putting several hundred hours and a couple of thousand
dollars into a boat is just too much. I would suggest you consider MDO
as well as marine plywood, especially if you are going to order out of
the Pacific NW
I am a very satisfied customer of Edensaw. I always recommend them. I
have used their Meranti for the last boats that I have bought marine
plywood for.
HJ
adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
> Lofting Cartoon 40 (aka Casual Sailing Dinghy) will commence this
> coming weekend. My knees asked me to construct a lofting bench to
> keep them off the floor, so I built a 16' x 4' bench with 3/4" OSB
> top. On top of that, I attached two sheets of 1/4" ply and coated
> them with white primer. The idea is that I can loft the boat, then
> remove the 1/4" ply and use the bench as a work bench. I'll need a
> bench like this for Auriga's bulkheads anyway.
>
> I'm planning to build the boat at 125% scale (the 19'-5" stretch PCB
> suggested in Small Boat Journal), but loft it at 1/2 of that so it
> will fit within the length of the bench. Small errors will only be
> doubled, so it should be good to about 1/16" full size, not counting
> any woodbutchery.
>
> For this boat, I'm considering spending the money on some high-end
> plywood instead of AC for a change, but that requires ordering from
> afar and I won't be able to examine the material first. Bolger calls
> for 1/2" throughout, and 14 sheets should do it for this boat. With
> that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on the species listed
> below, especially regarding workability/machineability, strength
> compared to AC Fir, and bending characteristics. Compared to about
> $50/sheet for local AC, is there a compelling reason to use any of
> these species?
>
> Okoume
>
> Meranti
>
> Sapele
>
> Khaya
>
> I can get Doug Fir marine ply locally some of the time, but the last
> time I bought any it was expensive and had an unacceptable number of
> voids. I'd use the AC I can get before buying this stuff again.
>
> Also, if anyone cares to recommend a supplier with a good shipping
> record, I'd appreciate it - right now I'm considering Boulter and
> Edensaw, but have never ordered from either.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>
>
>
>
>
>
I am in Vancouver Wa. and the AC here at HD is not exterior glued or as
knowen ACX. I have found that MDO from the lumber yard is a little more
but well worth it. Working in the home siding buisness for people that
want smoth closed eaves I always try to talk them into MDO having to
much trouble with ACX faces bubbeling and hidden vouids. Certisand
grade at HD looks great but the stamp states it is interior glued and
shouldn't be used in any part of a boat. If you are going to use
anything other then marine ply I would strongly sujest MDO it is a
little stiffer and comes in several grades but better then exterior fir
any day. Olimpic Ply is a good place to check out the specs.
Jon
knowen ACX. I have found that MDO from the lumber yard is a little more
but well worth it. Working in the home siding buisness for people that
want smoth closed eaves I always try to talk them into MDO having to
much trouble with ACX faces bubbeling and hidden vouids. Certisand
grade at HD looks great but the stamp states it is interior glued and
shouldn't be used in any part of a boat. If you are going to use
anything other then marine ply I would strongly sujest MDO it is a
little stiffer and comes in several grades but better then exterior fir
any day. Olimpic Ply is a good place to check out the specs.
Jon
> Here in Northern California, I like the quality and value of the
> 'plain old' AC plywood they sell at Home Depot, perhaps this is
> because we are so close to the Oregon plywood mills.
On 1/16/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
'plain old' AC plywood they sell at Home Depot, perhaps this is
because we are so close to the Oregon plywood mills.
I presume by 125% stretch, you mean you intend to increase the spacing
of the frames by 25%. I was looking at this stretch in Freeship, and
see again the genius of Phil Bolger in that the panels fall exactly
neat upon the 48" width of the sheet plywood.
Here is a scale image of the expanded panels plotted to scale onto a 12" grid.
http://hallman.org/bolger/cartoon40/Cartoon40+_developments.png
Plotted large scale, depending on your brand of web brower you might
need to 'right click' to get it to show full screen.
And the lines
http://hallman.org/bolger/cartoon40/Cartoon40+.png
and fbm file
http://hallman.org/bolger/cartoon40/Cartoon40+.fbm
>Here in Northern California, I like the quality and value of the
> Lofting Cartoon 40 (aka Casual Sailing Dinghy) will commence this
> coming weekend.
'plain old' AC plywood they sell at Home Depot, perhaps this is
because we are so close to the Oregon plywood mills.
I presume by 125% stretch, you mean you intend to increase the spacing
of the frames by 25%. I was looking at this stretch in Freeship, and
see again the genius of Phil Bolger in that the panels fall exactly
neat upon the 48" width of the sheet plywood.
Here is a scale image of the expanded panels plotted to scale onto a 12" grid.
http://hallman.org/bolger/cartoon40/Cartoon40+_developments.png
Plotted large scale, depending on your brand of web brower you might
need to 'right click' to get it to show full screen.
And the lines
http://hallman.org/bolger/cartoon40/Cartoon40+.png
and fbm file
http://hallman.org/bolger/cartoon40/Cartoon40+.fbm
Lofting Cartoon 40 (aka Casual Sailing Dinghy) will commence this
coming weekend. My knees asked me to construct a lofting bench to
keep them off the floor, so I built a 16' x 4' bench with 3/4" OSB
top. On top of that, I attached two sheets of 1/4" ply and coated
them with white primer. The idea is that I can loft the boat, then
remove the 1/4" ply and use the bench as a work bench. I'll need a
bench like this for Auriga's bulkheads anyway.
I'm planning to build the boat at 125% scale (the 19'-5" stretch PCB
suggested in Small Boat Journal), but loft it at 1/2 of that so it
will fit within the length of the bench. Small errors will only be
doubled, so it should be good to about 1/16" full size, not counting
any woodbutchery.
For this boat, I'm considering spending the money on some high-end
plywood instead of AC for a change, but that requires ordering from
afar and I won't be able to examine the material first. Bolger calls
for 1/2" throughout, and 14 sheets should do it for this boat. With
that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on the species listed
below, especially regarding workability/machineability, strength
compared to AC Fir, and bending characteristics. Compared to about
$50/sheet for local AC, is there a compelling reason to use any of
these species?
Okoume
Meranti
Sapele
Khaya
I can get Doug Fir marine ply locally some of the time, but the last
time I bought any it was expensive and had an unacceptable number of
voids. I'd use the AC I can get before buying this stuff again.
Also, if anyone cares to recommend a supplier with a good shipping
record, I'd appreciate it - right now I'm considering Boulter and
Edensaw, but have never ordered from either.
Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
coming weekend. My knees asked me to construct a lofting bench to
keep them off the floor, so I built a 16' x 4' bench with 3/4" OSB
top. On top of that, I attached two sheets of 1/4" ply and coated
them with white primer. The idea is that I can loft the boat, then
remove the 1/4" ply and use the bench as a work bench. I'll need a
bench like this for Auriga's bulkheads anyway.
I'm planning to build the boat at 125% scale (the 19'-5" stretch PCB
suggested in Small Boat Journal), but loft it at 1/2 of that so it
will fit within the length of the bench. Small errors will only be
doubled, so it should be good to about 1/16" full size, not counting
any woodbutchery.
For this boat, I'm considering spending the money on some high-end
plywood instead of AC for a change, but that requires ordering from
afar and I won't be able to examine the material first. Bolger calls
for 1/2" throughout, and 14 sheets should do it for this boat. With
that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on the species listed
below, especially regarding workability/machineability, strength
compared to AC Fir, and bending characteristics. Compared to about
$50/sheet for local AC, is there a compelling reason to use any of
these species?
Okoume
Meranti
Sapele
Khaya
I can get Doug Fir marine ply locally some of the time, but the last
time I bought any it was expensive and had an unacceptable number of
voids. I'd use the AC I can get before buying this stuff again.
Also, if anyone cares to recommend a supplier with a good shipping
record, I'd appreciate it - right now I'm considering Boulter and
Edensaw, but have never ordered from either.
Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm