Re: [bolger] Re: Epoxy
Robb White _glasses_ and epoxies each plank on both sides before putting it
on the boat. I don't know what he does with the framing. His boats are
small and very lightly built, so probably nothing but the backbones are of
sufficient dimension to cause worry about wood expansion and contraction
overtaxing a coating of epoxy, and if he laminates the keel and posts even
those members wouldn't cause trouble.
on the boat. I don't know what he does with the framing. His boats are
small and very lightly built, so probably nothing but the backbones are of
sufficient dimension to cause worry about wood expansion and contraction
overtaxing a coating of epoxy, and if he laminates the keel and posts even
those members wouldn't cause trouble.
On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:50:53 -0000, Bob Chamberland wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> > Didn't I just read
> > somewhere recenctly where Rob White coats all of his boats with
> > epoxy?
>
> Yes there was an article by Mr White in MAIB a few months ago. If I
> remember correctly he gets his boatbuilding shop superheated and lets
> the boat cook for awhile and then he goes in and bathes the boat in
> epoxy until it won't take anymore. I think the theory is that the
> cooking drive out the moisture, heats up the pores and when he slaps
> on the epoxy and the wood cools down it sucks up the epoxy. Like a
> Silex coffeemaker! I hope he wears a respirator. That is encapsulation
> by golly.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Self respect: the secure feeling that no one, as yet, is suspicious.
<H. L. Mencken>
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
remember correctly he gets his boatbuilding shop superheated and lets
the boat cook for awhile and then he goes in and bathes the boat in
epoxy until it won't take anymore. I think the theory is that the
cooking drive out the moisture, heats up the pores and when he slaps
on the epoxy and the wood cools down it sucks up the epoxy. Like a
Silex coffeemaker! I hope he wears a respirator. That is encapsulation
by golly.
Bob Chamberland
> Didn't I just readYes there was an article by Mr White in MAIB a few months ago. If I
> somewhere recenctly where Rob White coats all of his boats with
> epoxy?
remember correctly he gets his boatbuilding shop superheated and lets
the boat cook for awhile and then he goes in and bathes the boat in
epoxy until it won't take anymore. I think the theory is that the
cooking drive out the moisture, heats up the pores and when he slaps
on the epoxy and the wood cools down it sucks up the epoxy. Like a
Silex coffeemaker! I hope he wears a respirator. That is encapsulation
by golly.
Bob Chamberland
As with any information on the internet, or anywhere else
for that matter, one must evaluate it oneself.
There is a Lot of information, much of which is only opinion
at best, and propoganda at worst.
I am not going to express my personal opinion on the use
of epoxy, as it is just that, my opinion.
I guess I'm just getting little tired of the constant
arguments over who's "Opinion" is right.
I wish folks here would just state their "Opinion" as such,
and let it go.
I will build my boats the way I determine to be the best,
with the information I feel is valid.
Others can do what they want. Many of the latest fights
seem to be driven by egos, and the idea that their person
opinion is "The Truth", and anyone who has another opinion
is an idiot.
Lets get back to talking about boats.
Enough already.
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
for that matter, one must evaluate it oneself.
There is a Lot of information, much of which is only opinion
at best, and propoganda at worst.
I am not going to express my personal opinion on the use
of epoxy, as it is just that, my opinion.
I guess I'm just getting little tired of the constant
arguments over who's "Opinion" is right.
I wish folks here would just state their "Opinion" as such,
and let it go.
I will build my boats the way I determine to be the best,
with the information I feel is valid.
Others can do what they want. Many of the latest fights
seem to be driven by egos, and the idea that their person
opinion is "The Truth", and anyone who has another opinion
is an idiot.
Lets get back to talking about boats.
Enough already.
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
Hi, Bob,
Your comments are well taken. In this instance, I was trying to
respond to your query about where such things are written. I know
that people approach these things differently and their experiences
vary widely as their own experiments in these matters either pay off
well or turn out badly. I was not intending to be critical of anyone
who chose to saturate or paint their boat in epoxy. It seems to me
that as many "experts" agree as disagree. Didn't I just read
somewhere recenctly where Rob White coats all of his boats with
epoxy? So, in the end, it is a matter of whose advice one takes.
Warm Regards,
Dennis Marshall, Grand Rapids, MI
Your comments are well taken. In this instance, I was trying to
respond to your query about where such things are written. I know
that people approach these things differently and their experiences
vary widely as their own experiments in these matters either pay off
well or turn out badly. I was not intending to be critical of anyone
who chose to saturate or paint their boat in epoxy. It seems to me
that as many "experts" agree as disagree. Didn't I just read
somewhere recenctly where Rob White coats all of his boats with
epoxy? So, in the end, it is a matter of whose advice one takes.
Warm Regards,
Dennis Marshall, Grand Rapids, MI
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> > Hi, all. In the "epoxy misinformation" thread, the word that got
> > everyone riled was "sheathing" which I understood as coating the
> > entire boat in epoxy. I have seen this word used to describe the
> > phenomenon, I have also run across the word "saturation." The
> > following is a quote from T.F. Jones' "New Plywood Boats."
Similar
> > observations can be found in "Boats to Go" or "Low Resistance
> Boats."
> >
> > "I do no recommend using epoxy as a primer paint or
> > for "saturation," as the advertisements say. Any good it does is
by
> > limiting the flow of oxygen to the wood. Dave Carnell's
experiments
> > have shown conclusively that epoxy only retards the way wood
> absorbs
> > moisture, no matter how many coats are applied. Epoxy is more
> likely
> > to keep moisture in...I would as soon paint my boat with ketchup
as
> > with epoxy." (p. 27)
> >
> > Dennis Marshall, Grand Rapids, MI
>
> Hi Dennis, It is my understanding that "sheathing" is covering with
> epoxy (or polyester) and fiberglass fabric. Without the fiberglass
> cloth an epoxy coating is just that a coating of epoxy. I havn't
read
> T. F. Jones book, "Boats to Go", or "Low Resistance Boats". I found
> no
> data in Mr Carnell's website that supports his contenion regarding
> "saturation" coating nor any description of his experiments so I
> can't
> comment particularly on that.
>
> As to retarding the way wood absorbs moisture I believe that it is
> generally accepted by a large segment of professional boatbuilders
> that though moisture is not totally prevented from penetrating into
> the wood by epoxy it does the job very well indeed.
>
> As to painting with epoxy paint my Tremolino trimaran topsides were
> painted in 1981 or so with 2 coats of Interthane Plus over an
> Interthane 404414 Epoxy barriercoat. The Brynzeel plywood probably
> had
> the equivalent of 2 good coats of epoxy under all that paint.
After
> 10 years or so there was absolutely no evidence of the wood
expanding
> or contracting from changes in moisture content. The paint had
plenty
> of nicks and dings after 10 years but was still an effective
coating.
> The boat spent 3long summers on a mooring on Lake Dillon in
Colorado,
> 5 summers on a mooring here on Grand Traverse Bay, and a couple of
> summers on a trailer. Though I covered it with a tarp in the winter
> the topsides were essentially unprotected for the 10 or 11 years I
> had
> the boat. A good bit of this success is due to the Brynzeel plywood
> but at any rate ketchup would not have done as near as well.
>
> "Any good it does is by limiting the flow of oxygen into the wood"
> you
> quote from TF Jones. Oxygen is one part of the environment needed
for
> dry rot: the other part of the equation is optimum moisture
content,
> warm temperatures-76-86 degrees, and the proper "food". If you can
> keep oxygen down (saturation displaces air insofar as it can
> penetrate), keep the moisture content below 20%, and use the proper
> resistent food you'll not likely have dry rot. Not much you can do
> about the temperature. If you can avoid any one of these conditions
> you will not have dry rot.
>
> Even if epoxy only retards the entry of moisture into the wood that
> is
> a worthwhile goal. It is the expansion and contraction that weakens
> wood and if you lessen that your structure will last longer.
>
> In the end you pick your expert and "follow the directions on the
> can".
>
> Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
epoxy (or polyester) and fiberglass fabric. Without the fiberglass
cloth an epoxy coating is just that a coating of epoxy. I havn't read
T. F. Jones book, "Boats to Go", or "Low Resistance Boats". I found
no
data in Mr Carnell's website that supports his contenion regarding
"saturation" coating nor any description of his experiments so I
can't
comment particularly on that.
As to retarding the way wood absorbs moisture I believe that it is
generally accepted by a large segment of professional boatbuilders
that though moisture is not totally prevented from penetrating into
the wood by epoxy it does the job very well indeed.
As to painting with epoxy paint my Tremolino trimaran topsides were
painted in 1981 or so with 2 coats of Interthane Plus over an
Interthane 404414 Epoxy barriercoat. The Brynzeel plywood probably
had
the equivalent of 2 good coats of epoxy under all that paint. After
10 years or so there was absolutely no evidence of the wood expanding
or contracting from changes in moisture content. The paint had plenty
of nicks and dings after 10 years but was still an effective coating.
The boat spent 3long summers on a mooring on Lake Dillon in Colorado,
5 summers on a mooring here on Grand Traverse Bay, and a couple of
summers on a trailer. Though I covered it with a tarp in the winter
the topsides were essentially unprotected for the 10 or 11 years I
had
the boat. A good bit of this success is due to the Brynzeel plywood
but at any rate ketchup would not have done as near as well.
"Any good it does is by limiting the flow of oxygen into the wood"
you
quote from TF Jones. Oxygen is one part of the environment needed for
dry rot: the other part of the equation is optimum moisture content,
warm temperatures-76-86 degrees, and the proper "food". If you can
keep oxygen down (saturation displaces air insofar as it can
penetrate), keep the moisture content below 20%, and use the proper
resistent food you'll not likely have dry rot. Not much you can do
about the temperature. If you can avoid any one of these conditions
you will not have dry rot.
Even if epoxy only retards the entry of moisture into the wood that
is
a worthwhile goal. It is the expansion and contraction that weakens
wood and if you lessen that your structure will last longer.
In the end you pick your expert and "follow the directions on the
can".
Bob Chamberland
> Hi, all. In the "epoxy misinformation" thread, the word that gotBoats."
> everyone riled was "sheathing" which I understood as coating the
> entire boat in epoxy. I have seen this word used to describe the
> phenomenon, I have also run across the word "saturation." The
> following is a quote from T.F. Jones' "New Plywood Boats." Similar
> observations can be found in "Boats to Go" or "Low Resistance
>absorbs
> "I do no recommend using epoxy as a primer paint or
> for "saturation," as the advertisements say. Any good it does is by
> limiting the flow of oxygen to the wood. Dave Carnell's experiments
> have shown conclusively that epoxy only retards the way wood
> moisture, no matter how many coats are applied. Epoxy is morelikely
> to keep moisture in...I would as soon paint my boat with ketchup asHi Dennis, It is my understanding that "sheathing" is covering with
> with epoxy." (p. 27)
>
> Dennis Marshall, Grand Rapids, MI
epoxy (or polyester) and fiberglass fabric. Without the fiberglass
cloth an epoxy coating is just that a coating of epoxy. I havn't read
T. F. Jones book, "Boats to Go", or "Low Resistance Boats". I found
no
data in Mr Carnell's website that supports his contenion regarding
"saturation" coating nor any description of his experiments so I
can't
comment particularly on that.
As to retarding the way wood absorbs moisture I believe that it is
generally accepted by a large segment of professional boatbuilders
that though moisture is not totally prevented from penetrating into
the wood by epoxy it does the job very well indeed.
As to painting with epoxy paint my Tremolino trimaran topsides were
painted in 1981 or so with 2 coats of Interthane Plus over an
Interthane 404414 Epoxy barriercoat. The Brynzeel plywood probably
had
the equivalent of 2 good coats of epoxy under all that paint. After
10 years or so there was absolutely no evidence of the wood expanding
or contracting from changes in moisture content. The paint had plenty
of nicks and dings after 10 years but was still an effective coating.
The boat spent 3long summers on a mooring on Lake Dillon in Colorado,
5 summers on a mooring here on Grand Traverse Bay, and a couple of
summers on a trailer. Though I covered it with a tarp in the winter
the topsides were essentially unprotected for the 10 or 11 years I
had
the boat. A good bit of this success is due to the Brynzeel plywood
but at any rate ketchup would not have done as near as well.
"Any good it does is by limiting the flow of oxygen into the wood"
you
quote from TF Jones. Oxygen is one part of the environment needed for
dry rot: the other part of the equation is optimum moisture content,
warm temperatures-76-86 degrees, and the proper "food". If you can
keep oxygen down (saturation displaces air insofar as it can
penetrate), keep the moisture content below 20%, and use the proper
resistent food you'll not likely have dry rot. Not much you can do
about the temperature. If you can avoid any one of these conditions
you will not have dry rot.
Even if epoxy only retards the entry of moisture into the wood that
is
a worthwhile goal. It is the expansion and contraction that weakens
wood and if you lessen that your structure will last longer.
In the end you pick your expert and "follow the directions on the
can".
Bob Chamberland
Hi, all. In the "epoxy misinformation" thread, the word that got
everyone riled was "sheathing" which I understood as coating the
entire boat in epoxy. I have seen this word used to describe the
phenomenon, I have also run across the word "saturation." The
following is a quote from T.F. Jones' "New Plywood Boats." Similar
observations can be found in "Boats to Go" or "Low Resistance Boats."
"I do no recommend using epoxy as a primer paint or
for "saturation," as the advertisements say. Any good it does is by
limiting the flow of oxygen to the wood. Dave Carnell's experiments
have shown conclusively that epoxy only retards the way wood absorbs
moisture, no matter how many coats are applied. Epoxy is more likely
to keep moisture in...I would as soon paint my boat with ketchup as
with epoxy." (p. 27)
Dennis Marshall, Grand Rapids, MI
everyone riled was "sheathing" which I understood as coating the
entire boat in epoxy. I have seen this word used to describe the
phenomenon, I have also run across the word "saturation." The
following is a quote from T.F. Jones' "New Plywood Boats." Similar
observations can be found in "Boats to Go" or "Low Resistance Boats."
"I do no recommend using epoxy as a primer paint or
for "saturation," as the advertisements say. Any good it does is by
limiting the flow of oxygen to the wood. Dave Carnell's experiments
have shown conclusively that epoxy only retards the way wood absorbs
moisture, no matter how many coats are applied. Epoxy is more likely
to keep moisture in...I would as soon paint my boat with ketchup as
with epoxy." (p. 27)
Dennis Marshall, Grand Rapids, MI
System Three did send my epoxy by plane from Seattle to Germany some years
ago without problems.
Having tried various methods to warm up resin I prefer a sink with hot
water in conjunction with my wifes small immersion boiler she uses for
making a cup of coffee while staying in hotel rooms. To clear a confined
pump (when in a hurry) I use a heat gun (more or less carefully).
I remove amino blush with a wet (water and some mild detergent) vlies
running on my Festo Rotex. The Rotex is some kind of an angle grinder that
can vibrate as well as rotate excenter.
Leo
ago without problems.
Having tried various methods to warm up resin I prefer a sink with hot
water in conjunction with my wifes small immersion boiler she uses for
making a cup of coffee while staying in hotel rooms. To clear a confined
pump (when in a hurry) I use a heat gun (more or less carefully).
I remove amino blush with a wet (water and some mild detergent) vlies
running on my Festo Rotex. The Rotex is some kind of an angle grinder that
can vibrate as well as rotate excenter.
Leo