RE: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?
The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot
flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a
steel barge with an aluminum house. It drew about 6 inches. I would be
guessing at the thickness of the plate, but I do know a corrosion allowance
is necessary.
The previous owner left it tied to a dock and used it for a guest house.
Unfortunately, he left the shoreside power hooked up with the wrong polarity
for several years and electrolytically corroded the hull. Dad had to glass
it inside and out to stop the leaks
Another point of reference is Huckleberry Finn, a 50 foot Atkins houseboat
done for Motorboating sometime before 1953. This boat has 11/64 bottom
plate and 9/64 topside plate on 2x2x1/8 angle framing at 15 inch intervals
with 3 longitudinal 4x7.55 I stringers, 1/4x12 keel plates on top and bottom
of the framing, 3/16 bow and stern and 4 watertight bulkheads of 1/8 plate
with 1.25x1.25x1/8 angle stiffeners on about 18 inch spacing.
Unfortunately, displacement is not given. Gross dimensions are 50' LOA, 44'
LWL, 18' B, 1'-4" D.
The point is that, with competent design, a boat can be built of steel in
any size. Since framing and stiffeners are easy to attach, weight is not as
difficult a problem as one might think. Cost may be a different problem.
V/R
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
donschultz8275
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:15 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?
flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a
steel barge with an aluminum house. It drew about 6 inches. I would be
guessing at the thickness of the plate, but I do know a corrosion allowance
is necessary.
The previous owner left it tied to a dock and used it for a guest house.
Unfortunately, he left the shoreside power hooked up with the wrong polarity
for several years and electrolytically corroded the hull. Dad had to glass
it inside and out to stop the leaks
Another point of reference is Huckleberry Finn, a 50 foot Atkins houseboat
done for Motorboating sometime before 1953. This boat has 11/64 bottom
plate and 9/64 topside plate on 2x2x1/8 angle framing at 15 inch intervals
with 3 longitudinal 4x7.55 I stringers, 1/4x12 keel plates on top and bottom
of the framing, 3/16 bow and stern and 4 watertight bulkheads of 1/8 plate
with 1.25x1.25x1/8 angle stiffeners on about 18 inch spacing.
Unfortunately, displacement is not given. Gross dimensions are 50' LOA, 44'
LWL, 18' B, 1'-4" D.
The point is that, with competent design, a boat can be built of steel in
any size. Since framing and stiffeners are easy to attach, weight is not as
difficult a problem as one might think. Cost may be a different problem.
V/R
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
donschultz8275
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:15 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
>
> So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
> practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.
I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
bigger than a Micro.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
bigger than a Micro.
>I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
> So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
> practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.
single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
bigger than a Micro.
By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed
there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation
eliminating the things that cause rust to form. Homebuilder sheet
foam will not seel the air flow out well enough. For a lot of good
info on steel boat building and scantling use check out:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/
Jon
______________
there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation
eliminating the things that cause rust to form. Homebuilder sheet
foam will not seel the air flow out well enough. For a lot of good
info on steel boat building and scantling use check out:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/
Jon
> > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal______________________________________________________________________
> > interior surfaces of the
> > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
> > that is cooler than the dew
> > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
> > serious problem in the
> > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
> > troublesome on a small boat
> > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
> > Another reason to
> > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
> > greatly reduces the
> > heating/cooling load.
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
>
>
>
>
>
______________
> Looking for earth-friendly autos?
> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
>http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>
I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in
thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and
less disrortion. MIG can have poor penatration and Inershield gets
slag when starting and stopping that can cause pinholes. CNC is great
but you need the specs on disc with a format that the CNC can use. It
can be big bucks if they have to set up the cutting specs. They are
more versatal now and shops can give help on what they need. Atkins
has a 28' sternwheeler that is 8 and 10 gage steel
Jon
thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and
less disrortion. MIG can have poor penatration and Inershield gets
slag when starting and stopping that can cause pinholes. CNC is great
but you need the specs on disc with a format that the CNC can use. It
can be big bucks if they have to set up the cutting specs. They are
more versatal now and shops can give help on what they need. Atkins
has a 28' sternwheeler that is 8 and 10 gage steel
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
> 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
> 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
> 8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft
>
> I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
> out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
> useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
> bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
> 1/4.
>
> I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
> the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
> under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
> welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
> order.
>
> If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
> steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
> And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
> the computer can nest everything so that is little
> wast.
>
> Krissie
>
> >
> > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
> > weight is 2.7 Ton.
> > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
> > probably 3.7 Ton.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
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>
Hey Don in all the years I've been welding I have yet
to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel....
Let's face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
steel boat you have the best of both world....Rot and
Rust.
Dave Gerr does a good job of telling you how to work
out your scantling for a steel boat in The Nature of
Boats. I have also see a couple of other books that
just talk about steel boat building.
Blessings Krissie
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
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to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel....
Let's face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
steel boat you have the best of both world....Rot and
Rust.
Dave Gerr does a good job of telling you how to work
out your scantling for a steel boat in The Nature of
Boats. I have also see a couple of other books that
just talk about steel boat building.
Blessings Krissie
>____________________________________________________________________________________
> I would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS
> 29 plans would
> provide the panel expansions and other dimensional
> details. LP will
> provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do
> it in steel. I
> would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom
> including the
> rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames
> and tabs welded
> to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and
> much of the
> interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it
> for more steel.
>
> Don Schultz
>
>
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the
hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of
the hull and that can make for a sleepless night.
Sound does travle through steel very well below
waterline.
Kristine
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hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of
the hull and that can make for a sleepless night.
Sound does travle through steel very well below
waterline.
Kristine
> I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal____________________________________________________________________________________
> interior surfaces of the
> skin will sweat when they have water on one side
> that is cooler than the dew
> point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
> serious problem in the
> engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
> troublesome on a small boat
> where the living spaces extend below the water line.
> Another reason to
> consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
> greatly reduces the
> heating/cooling load.
>
> V/R
> Chris
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
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Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft
I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
1/4.
I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
order.
If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
the computer can nest everything so that is little
wast.
Krissie
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3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft
I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
1/4.
I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
order.
If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
the computer can nest everything so that is little
wast.
Krissie
>____________________________________________________________________________________
> Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
> weight is 2.7 Ton.
> After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
> probably 3.7 Ton.
>
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I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the
skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew
point of the humid air on the other. This is not a serious problem in the
engine room of a merchant ship, but could be troublesome on a small boat
where the living spaces extend below the water line. Another reason to
consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it greatly reduces the
heating/cooling load.
V/R
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
ANDREW AIREY
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:37 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?
I noted the concern about insulation in the article
but wonder if it was misplaced.
skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew
point of the humid air on the other. This is not a serious problem in the
engine room of a merchant ship, but could be troublesome on a small boat
where the living spaces extend below the water line. Another reason to
consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it greatly reduces the
heating/cooling load.
V/R
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
ANDREW AIREY
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:37 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?
I noted the concern about insulation in the article
but wonder if it was misplaced.
I noted the concern about insulation in the article
but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM
was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
enough sailing capability to get it across the North
Sea or English Channel to explore the European rivers
and canals - its why I was attracted to it until I
discovered Dutch sailing barges.There are literally
thousands of steel narrowboats on the English canal
system - more now than when the canals were a truly
commercial highway a hundred years or more ago - and a
great many are lived on all year round.Two of my
friends lived on similar boats for years.Bit of
fibreglass,wood panelling and a good pot stove.Even
now the Chinese have pushed steel prices up I reckon
that you could get the hull built commercially in the
UK for around the £10k mark.There must be 5
boatbuilders within a 15 mile radius of Worksop and
thats just off the top of my head without
researching.I'd be more worried about sailing ability,
getting round the Recreational Craft Directive,and
getting some insurance on it,which is a point that
I've not seen discussed on this forum - how are PCB's
designs regarded by the insurance industry.Too many
people seem to be wanting you to have 3rd party
insurance these days.I would think that WM with a
breeze behind it would go straight through a plastic
noddy boat without even slowing down much
cheers
Andy Airey
Ps Must do some research on sailing 'Cuckoos'- our
local canal craft(72ft long)and same beam as WM,which
occasionally carried sils on the Trent
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM
was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
enough sailing capability to get it across the North
Sea or English Channel to explore the European rivers
and canals - its why I was attracted to it until I
discovered Dutch sailing barges.There are literally
thousands of steel narrowboats on the English canal
system - more now than when the canals were a truly
commercial highway a hundred years or more ago - and a
great many are lived on all year round.Two of my
friends lived on similar boats for years.Bit of
fibreglass,wood panelling and a good pot stove.Even
now the Chinese have pushed steel prices up I reckon
that you could get the hull built commercially in the
UK for around the £10k mark.There must be 5
boatbuilders within a 15 mile radius of Worksop and
thats just off the top of my head without
researching.I'd be more worried about sailing ability,
getting round the Recreational Craft Directive,and
getting some insurance on it,which is a point that
I've not seen discussed on this forum - how are PCB's
designs regarded by the insurance industry.Too many
people seem to be wanting you to have 3rd party
insurance these days.I would think that WM with a
breeze behind it would go straight through a plastic
noddy boat without even slowing down much
cheers
Andy Airey
Ps Must do some research on sailing 'Cuckoos'- our
local canal craft(72ft long)and same beam as WM,which
occasionally carried sils on the Trent
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Hi All
I hope the group doesn't impose the same penalties for
apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I
like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there are some
alternatives.
1 Waterwitch
This is the Maurice Griffith's 'Eventide' big sister -
30' or 35' long.Plans are available for a steel
version and second hand examples come up
occasionally.If you don't like leeboards the mark1 is
the one to look for.The mark2 only draws 2ft but that
has leeboards.There is some antagonism between the
Eventide owners association and the Eventide owners
group.EOG is much more active but the EOA has the
plans for the steel versions - cost$200-250
2.Wylo 2
32ft or 35ft gaff orjunk rig.draft about 3ft3in.Wooden
upperworks on the 32ft which might be the way to keep
the weight down on a steel bolger box.Several
circumnavigations to it's credit
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
I hope the group doesn't impose the same penalties for
apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I
like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there are some
alternatives.
1 Waterwitch
This is the Maurice Griffith's 'Eventide' big sister -
30' or 35' long.Plans are available for a steel
version and second hand examples come up
occasionally.If you don't like leeboards the mark1 is
the one to look for.The mark2 only draws 2ft but that
has leeboards.There is some antagonism between the
Eventide owners association and the Eventide owners
group.EOG is much more active but the EOA has the
plans for the steel versions - cost$200-250
2.Wylo 2
32ft or 35ft gaff orjunk rig.draft about 3ft3in.Wooden
upperworks on the 32ft which might be the way to keep
the weight down on a steel bolger box.Several
circumnavigations to it's credit
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On 2/1/07, goadarama <goadarama@...> wrote:
deeper, not longer, to achieve the increase in buoyancy that you seek.
(Though wider means loss of trailerablity, move interior volume, and
she would no longer be an AS29.)
You might consider a Superbrick. <grin>.
FWIW, pasted below are the hydrostatics of a steel AS29
Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead weight is 2.7 Ton.
After you add bulkheads and interior fittout, probably 3.7 Ton.
But the design waterline, as I see it, allows for only 3.6 Ton.
Project : Advanced Sharpie AS29
Designer : Phil Bolger
Created by : BruceHallman
Filename : C:\Documents and
Settings\BruceH.TUTOR536\Desktop\FS\FreeShip\AS29.fbm
Design length : 29.500 [ft]
Length over all : 29.438 [ft]
Design beam : 8.000 [ft]
Beam over all : 8.556 [ft]
Design draft : 1.250 [ft]
Midship location : 14.750 [ft]
Water density : 63.989 [lbs/ft3]
Appendage coefficient : 1.0000
Volume properties:
Displaced volume : 125.27 [ft3]
Displacement : 3.579 [tons]
Total length of submerged body : 21.981 [ft]
Total beam of submerged body : 8.556 [ft]
Block coefficient : 0.5329
Prismatic coefficient : 0.5873
Vert. prismatic coefficient : 0.6262
Wetted surface area : 194.73 [ft2]
Longitudinal center of buoyancy : 14.074 [ft]
Longitudinal center of buoyancy : -3.076 [%]
Vertical center of buoyancy : 0.784 [ft]
Midship properties:
Midship section area : 9.704 [ft2]
Midship coefficient : 0.9074
Waterplane properties:
Length on waterline : 21.981 [ft]
Beam on waterline : 8.530 [ft]
Waterplane area : 160.03 [ft2]
Waterplane coefficient : 0.8509
Waterplane center of floatation : 14.016 [ft]
Entrance angle : -89.299 [degr.]
Transverse moment of inertia : 768.30 [ft4]
Longitudinal moment of inertia : 5561.4 [ft4]
Initial stability:
Transverse metacentric height : 6.917 [ft]
Longitudinal metacentric height : 45.179 [ft]
Lateral plane:
Lateral area : 17.432 [ft2]
Longitudinal center of effort : 14.354 [ft]
Vertical center of effort : 0.762 [ft]
The following layer properties are calculated for both sides of the ship:
| Layer | Area | Thickness | Weight | COG X |
COG Y | COG Z |
| | [ft2] | | [tons] | [ft] |
[ft] | [ft] |
|-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
| hull | 484.56 | 0.250 | 2.208 | 14.339 |
0.000 | 2.083 |
| deck | 226.57 | 0.125 | 0.516 | 14.157 |
0.000 | 5.304 |
|-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
Total 711.13 2.725 14.304
0.000 2.693
Sectional areas:
| Location | Area |
| [ft] | [ft2] |
|-----------+----------|
| 2.000 | 0.000 |
| 4.000 | 0.408 |
| 6.000 | 3.112 |
| 8.000 | 5.564 |
| 10.000 | 8.066 |
| 12.000 | 9.189 |
| 14.000 | 10.182 |
| 16.000 | 8.899 |
| 18.000 | 7.625 |
| 20.000 | 5.311 |
| 22.000 | 3.251 |
| 24.000 | 1.199 |
| 26.000 | 0.000 |
|-----------+----------|
>My hunch is that it would be more efficient to maker her wider and
>
> So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
> practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.
deeper, not longer, to achieve the increase in buoyancy that you seek.
(Though wider means loss of trailerablity, move interior volume, and
she would no longer be an AS29.)
You might consider a Superbrick. <grin>.
FWIW, pasted below are the hydrostatics of a steel AS29
Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead weight is 2.7 Ton.
After you add bulkheads and interior fittout, probably 3.7 Ton.
But the design waterline, as I see it, allows for only 3.6 Ton.
Project : Advanced Sharpie AS29
Designer : Phil Bolger
Created by : BruceHallman
Filename : C:\Documents and
Settings\BruceH.TUTOR536\Desktop\FS\FreeShip\AS29.fbm
Design length : 29.500 [ft]
Length over all : 29.438 [ft]
Design beam : 8.000 [ft]
Beam over all : 8.556 [ft]
Design draft : 1.250 [ft]
Midship location : 14.750 [ft]
Water density : 63.989 [lbs/ft3]
Appendage coefficient : 1.0000
Volume properties:
Displaced volume : 125.27 [ft3]
Displacement : 3.579 [tons]
Total length of submerged body : 21.981 [ft]
Total beam of submerged body : 8.556 [ft]
Block coefficient : 0.5329
Prismatic coefficient : 0.5873
Vert. prismatic coefficient : 0.6262
Wetted surface area : 194.73 [ft2]
Longitudinal center of buoyancy : 14.074 [ft]
Longitudinal center of buoyancy : -3.076 [%]
Vertical center of buoyancy : 0.784 [ft]
Midship properties:
Midship section area : 9.704 [ft2]
Midship coefficient : 0.9074
Waterplane properties:
Length on waterline : 21.981 [ft]
Beam on waterline : 8.530 [ft]
Waterplane area : 160.03 [ft2]
Waterplane coefficient : 0.8509
Waterplane center of floatation : 14.016 [ft]
Entrance angle : -89.299 [degr.]
Transverse moment of inertia : 768.30 [ft4]
Longitudinal moment of inertia : 5561.4 [ft4]
Initial stability:
Transverse metacentric height : 6.917 [ft]
Longitudinal metacentric height : 45.179 [ft]
Lateral plane:
Lateral area : 17.432 [ft2]
Longitudinal center of effort : 14.354 [ft]
Vertical center of effort : 0.762 [ft]
The following layer properties are calculated for both sides of the ship:
| Layer | Area | Thickness | Weight | COG X |
COG Y | COG Z |
| | [ft2] | | [tons] | [ft] |
[ft] | [ft] |
|-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
| hull | 484.56 | 0.250 | 2.208 | 14.339 |
0.000 | 2.083 |
| deck | 226.57 | 0.125 | 0.516 | 14.157 |
0.000 | 5.304 |
|-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
Total 711.13 2.725 14.304
0.000 2.693
Sectional areas:
| Location | Area |
| [ft] | [ft2] |
|-----------+----------|
| 2.000 | 0.000 |
| 4.000 | 0.408 |
| 6.000 | 3.112 |
| 8.000 | 5.564 |
| 10.000 | 8.066 |
| 12.000 | 9.189 |
| 14.000 | 10.182 |
| 16.000 | 8.899 |
| 18.000 | 7.625 |
| 20.000 | 5.311 |
| 22.000 | 3.251 |
| 24.000 | 1.199 |
| 26.000 | 0.000 |
|-----------+----------|
So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.
Obviously it works at 45 feet. In the article re the modifications
to the AS39 PB mentions there is tremendous latitude in building to
stouter scantlings at that size. I'll figure it out. Thanks for the
great info and speculations.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...>
wrote:
practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.
Obviously it works at 45 feet. In the article re the modifications
to the AS39 PB mentions there is tremendous latitude in building to
stouter scantlings at that size. I'll figure it out. Thanks for the
great info and speculations.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...>
wrote:
>a 6-
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Given PBolgers 45' Weston Martyr, with 1/2" bottom plate, and
> 9have to
> > > beam, what do ya'll think the AS 29 and AS39 bottoms would
> > be?would
>
> I would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS 29 plans
> provide the panel expansions and other dimensional details. LPwill
> provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do it in steel.I
> would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom including thewelded
> rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames and tabs
> to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and much of thesteel.
> interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it for more
>
> Don Schultz
>
All it takes is for the water temperature to be below the dew point on a
particular day.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
graeme19121984
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 2:24 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?
Two questions. Would there be a problem in warmer waters if the
insulation were left out? What is the water temperature below which
the problems that PB&F mentioned are encountered? (Mid East Coast
Australia - off here winter water temp is around 16 degrees C I
think.)
particular day.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
graeme19121984
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 2:24 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?
Two questions. Would there be a problem in warmer waters if the
insulation were left out? What is the water temperature below which
the problems that PB&F mentioned are encountered? (Mid East Coast
Australia - off here winter water temp is around 16 degrees C I
think.)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
light of the endodontist's theatre lamp I happenned to settle on
Weston Martyr as something else, other than what was happening in my
mouth, to think about. (Then again, the chances are that I would
have had some boat or other in my mind's eye.)
My contemplation settled on the consideration regarding Weston
Martyr of insulation. Without looking up the PCB&F article I recall
that there was some concern about the liveability, condensation, and
insulation problems inside the steel box in very cold northern
waters.
I wondered if insulation would be needed at all if the cruising
grounds were limited to lower latitudes with warm (fairly?) waters.
I recalled the large steel Sir Joseph Banks intended for the warmer
side of the South Pacific. SJB was able to be nosed onto an island
beach to facilitate loading/unloading. The advantages of steel and a
heavy steel bottom in settling on suspect moorings, in bumping the
odd coral bomby, in easy repair anywhere, and even in fending off
the increasing amount of drifting seatainers are obvious. Also once
the skills of welding and cutting are developed such square geometry
should be an easy build, if the neighbours don't mind the noise.
Two questions. Would there be a problem in warmer waters if the
insulation were left out? What is the water temperature below which
the problems that PB&F mentioned are encountered? (Mid East Coast
Australia - off here winter water temp is around 16 degrees C I
think.)
Graeme
> Given PBolgers 45' Weston Martyr, with 1/2" bottom plate, and a 6-9
> beam, Bob G. S/V "Plan A"That's a funny coincidence. Today, laid back under the brilliant
light of the endodontist's theatre lamp I happenned to settle on
Weston Martyr as something else, other than what was happening in my
mouth, to think about. (Then again, the chances are that I would
have had some boat or other in my mind's eye.)
My contemplation settled on the consideration regarding Weston
Martyr of insulation. Without looking up the PCB&F article I recall
that there was some concern about the liveability, condensation, and
insulation problems inside the steel box in very cold northern
waters.
I wondered if insulation would be needed at all if the cruising
grounds were limited to lower latitudes with warm (fairly?) waters.
I recalled the large steel Sir Joseph Banks intended for the warmer
side of the South Pacific. SJB was able to be nosed onto an island
beach to facilitate loading/unloading. The advantages of steel and a
heavy steel bottom in settling on suspect moorings, in bumping the
odd coral bomby, in easy repair anywhere, and even in fending off
the increasing amount of drifting seatainers are obvious. Also once
the skills of welding and cutting are developed such square geometry
should be an easy build, if the neighbours don't mind the noise.
Two questions. Would there be a problem in warmer waters if the
insulation were left out? What is the water temperature below which
the problems that PB&F mentioned are encountered? (Mid East Coast
Australia - off here winter water temp is around 16 degrees C I
think.)
Graeme
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@> wrote:9
> >
> > Given PBolgers 45' Weston Martyr, with 1/2" bottom plate, and a 6-
> > beam, what do ya'll think the AS 29 and AS39 bottoms would have toI would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS 29 plans would
> be?
provide the panel expansions and other dimensional details. LP will
provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do it in steel. I
would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom including the
rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames and tabs welded
to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and much of the
interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it for more steel.
Don Schultz
Based on the information from Bruce about the 1/2" steel plate used
for ballast, my back-of-the-envelope calculation for the weight of an
AS29 hull and deck made from 1/8" steel (the thinnest generally
thought to be practical), is 5000 lb, including a 20% allowance of the
skin's weight for bulkeads, frames and gussets. Add in ballast at 2000
lb, and you end up with 7000 lb. Its design displacement is 7300 lb.
My guess is the 20% allowance is too small, given the boxy shape that
would need a lot of support to prevent oilcanning.
So the hull would need to be re-drawn to provide a lot more
displacement.
Howard
for ballast, my back-of-the-envelope calculation for the weight of an
AS29 hull and deck made from 1/8" steel (the thinnest generally
thought to be practical), is 5000 lb, including a 20% allowance of the
skin's weight for bulkeads, frames and gussets. Add in ballast at 2000
lb, and you end up with 7000 lb. Its design displacement is 7300 lb.
My guess is the 20% allowance is too small, given the boxy shape that
would need a lot of support to prevent oilcanning.
So the hull would need to be re-drawn to provide a lot more
displacement.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
>
> Given PBolgers 45' Weston Martyr, with 1/2" bottom plate, and a 6-9
> beam, what do ya'll think the AS 29 and AS39 bottoms would have to
be?
> We are selling our plastic sailboat and want to weld up a stout
steel
> sharpie for gunkholing. I see no reason the ASharpies couldn't be
> welded up of steel. The Weston martyr is just too narrow. We've seen
> the Lions Paw in person but don't like the unprotected leeboards and
> like PBolgers later refining of his sharpies to boxes. Lastly, does
> anyone know if PB designed steel versions of the ASharpies? Best
wishes
> from NW Florida. Bob G. S/V "Plan A"
>
> Bruce, That's a 1/2 inch plate on the AS29 mod.Correct. Steel approximately 8' x 12' x 1/2" weighing 2,000 lbs.
On Jan 31, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
challenging retrofit IMHO.
JimH
> I recall that the latest version of AS29 is spec'ed with 1 inch steelBruce, That's a 1/2 inch plate on the AS29 mod. It'd be great but a
> plate bolted to the exterior of the plywood bottom, in lieu of the
challenging retrofit IMHO.
JimH
I recall that the latest version of AS29 is spec'ed with 1 inch steel
plate bolted to the exterior of the plywood bottom, in lieu of the
interior lead ballast of the original design. As substantial ballast
is required with an AS29 to float her down on her waterline, probably
PCB would make the bottom much thicker in steel than required for
simple strength.
plate bolted to the exterior of the plywood bottom, in lieu of the
interior lead ballast of the original design. As substantial ballast
is required with an AS29 to float her down on her waterline, probably
PCB would make the bottom much thicker in steel than required for
simple strength.
Given PBolgers 45' Weston Martyr, with 1/2" bottom plate, and a 6-9
beam, what do ya'll think the AS 29 and AS39 bottoms would have to be?
We are selling our plastic sailboat and want to weld up a stout steel
sharpie for gunkholing. I see no reason the ASharpies couldn't be
welded up of steel. The Weston martyr is just too narrow. We've seen
the Lions Paw in person but don't like the unprotected leeboards and
like PBolgers later refining of his sharpies to boxes. Lastly, does
anyone know if PB designed steel versions of the ASharpies? Best wishes
from NW Florida. Bob G. S/V "Plan A"
beam, what do ya'll think the AS 29 and AS39 bottoms would have to be?
We are selling our plastic sailboat and want to weld up a stout steel
sharpie for gunkholing. I see no reason the ASharpies couldn't be
welded up of steel. The Weston martyr is just too narrow. We've seen
the Lions Paw in person but don't like the unprotected leeboards and
like PBolgers later refining of his sharpies to boxes. Lastly, does
anyone know if PB designed steel versions of the ASharpies? Best wishes
from NW Florida. Bob G. S/V "Plan A"