Re: Dido
Nels,
pleased with her reported handling. Leeboards, rope retained and paired
at that, are a bit more hassel to handle than a centre board, and I
think this may be the reason mainly for them not being on bigger
designs, say, from Jesse Cooper to AS-29, and so on.
Whalewatcher had them, though to stay clear under the windows they had
to be long and narrow to be effective. This meant they had to raised a
bit in shallow water, and that caused lee helm that a shallow bow
daggerboard might fix.
Dovkie's single long leeboard effect on performance was similar, and
PCB wondered that for production boats paired shorter leeboards might
be better.
Much broader leeboards can be shorter and so can mostly stay down where
they should be. They don't look as nice, especially when raised, IMHO.
How were things solved for JS?
Hopefully someone can look-up the Bolger MAIB Dido article and tell us
more about her story.
Graeme
> I wonder if it may have been a design presented to Edey and Duff atQuite possibly - they were still going strong in the 80's, weren't they?
> some point?
> Bolger got away from the BW type leeboards as they created adverseThe AS-19 design would be late 80's, I think, and PB&F were very
> amounts of lee helm when sailing in shallow water. Or am I mistaken?
> I think he designed a small bow centerboard as an option in the E&D
> leeboarders to alleviate that.
pleased with her reported handling. Leeboards, rope retained and paired
at that, are a bit more hassel to handle than a centre board, and I
think this may be the reason mainly for them not being on bigger
designs, say, from Jesse Cooper to AS-29, and so on.
Whalewatcher had them, though to stay clear under the windows they had
to be long and narrow to be effective. This meant they had to raised a
bit in shallow water, and that caused lee helm that a shallow bow
daggerboard might fix.
Dovkie's single long leeboard effect on performance was similar, and
PCB wondered that for production boats paired shorter leeboards might
be better.
Much broader leeboards can be shorter and so can mostly stay down where
they should be. They don't look as nice, especially when raised, IMHO.
How were things solved for JS?
Hopefully someone can look-up the Bolger MAIB Dido article and tell us
more about her story.
Graeme
Graeme,
Certainly appears like the hull may have been designed for Airex
foam construction - at least up to the leeboard guards?
It may have had water ballast tanks under the cockpit seats and an
additional amount of ballast under the bunk flat?
I wonder if it may have been a design presented to Edey and Duff at
some point?
Bolger got away from the BW type leeboards as they created adverse
amounts of lee helm when sailing in shallow water. Or am I mistaken?
I think he designed a small bow centerboard as an option in the E&D
leeboarders to alleviate that.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
Certainly appears like the hull may have been designed for Airex
foam construction - at least up to the leeboard guards?
It may have had water ballast tanks under the cockpit seats and an
additional amount of ballast under the bunk flat?
I wonder if it may have been a design presented to Edey and Duff at
some point?
Bolger got away from the BW type leeboards as they created adverse
amounts of lee helm when sailing in shallow water. Or am I mistaken?
I think he designed a small bow centerboard as an option in the E&D
leeboarders to alleviate that.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>construction,
> Given that Aeneas is somewhat expert with Airex cored
> I wonder if much of Dido is not designed for that. Im not too surethat
> from the burnt boat photo how much of that is wood and ply with
> glass sheathing. The MAIB lines scan may indicate in some views
> the "chine" edge is rounded to a radius more than usual for plyindicated.
> construction. The forward bottom could be like Don
> Baldwinson's "Oink" Micro - block of foam, glued on, sculpted to
> shape, then glass sheathed - or it may be foam sandwich (or Airex)
> on a jigged mold on a strongback as you suggested.
>
> There certainly are a lot of flotation foam filled spaces
> Does anyone have ideas on how she is ballasted?and
>
> Not to hold back from running off at tangents:
>
> What bets that it was well read PCB who coined the design name,
> not Aeneas?were
>
> Different sailplan look, but in profile could AS-19 approach
> resembling Dido if the PB&F suggestion for a rounded garvey bow
> adopted; and if higher sided for an enclosed Dido-like cockpit,also
> maybe with the flush decked cabin and that BS leeboard shape?boogie
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@> wrote:
>
> > Great looking hull, but not an "instant" boat construction like
> > Black Skimmer. Probably require a building jig. And not much
> > headroom below deck. But what a looker! And I bet it could
> on
> > a broad reach eh? You might want an active crew aboard though.
>
Given that Aeneas is somewhat expert with Airex cored construction,
I wonder if much of Dido is not designed for that. Im not too sure
from the burnt boat photo how much of that is wood and ply with
glass sheathing. The MAIB lines scan may indicate in some views that
the "chine" edge is rounded to a radius more than usual for ply
construction. The forward bottom could be like Don
Baldwinson's "Oink" Micro - block of foam, glued on, sculpted to
shape, then glass sheathed - or it may be foam sandwich (or Airex)
on a jigged mold on a strongback as you suggested.
There certainly are a lot of flotation foam filled spaces indicated.
Does anyone have ideas on how she is ballasted?
Not to hold back from running off at tangents:
What bets that it was well read PCB who coined the design name, and
not Aeneas?
Different sailplan look, but in profile could AS-19 approach
resembling Dido if the PB&F suggestion for a rounded garvey bow were
adopted; and if higher sided for an enclosed Dido-like cockpit, also
maybe with the flush decked cabin and that BS leeboard shape?
Graeme
I wonder if much of Dido is not designed for that. Im not too sure
from the burnt boat photo how much of that is wood and ply with
glass sheathing. The MAIB lines scan may indicate in some views that
the "chine" edge is rounded to a radius more than usual for ply
construction. The forward bottom could be like Don
Baldwinson's "Oink" Micro - block of foam, glued on, sculpted to
shape, then glass sheathed - or it may be foam sandwich (or Airex)
on a jigged mold on a strongback as you suggested.
There certainly are a lot of flotation foam filled spaces indicated.
Does anyone have ideas on how she is ballasted?
Not to hold back from running off at tangents:
What bets that it was well read PCB who coined the design name, and
not Aeneas?
Different sailplan look, but in profile could AS-19 approach
resembling Dido if the PB&F suggestion for a rounded garvey bow were
adopted; and if higher sided for an enclosed Dido-like cockpit, also
maybe with the flush decked cabin and that BS leeboard shape?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
> Great looking hull, but not an "instant" boat construction like
> Black Skimmer. Probably require a building jig. And not much
> headroom below deck. But what a looker! And I bet it could boogie
on
> a broad reach eh? You might want an active crew aboard though.
Matthew, After all we have learned about Didi, and your location, I
don't know how you can pass it up. Prior to the motor requirement, I was
thinking "Centennial". As Bruce once pointed out, 11 shts of 3/8 ply and
you have a fair sized boat. I do think,whatever you decide, make sure it
or disassembled parts will fit in a "container" and it might not be so
expensive to ship to your next post. Clyde
Nels wrote:
don't know how you can pass it up. Prior to the motor requirement, I was
thinking "Centennial". As Bruce once pointed out, 11 shts of 3/8 ply and
you have a fair sized boat. I do think,whatever you decide, make sure it
or disassembled parts will fit in a "container" and it might not be so
expensive to ship to your next post. Clyde
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Dido%20%20%23431/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Dido%20%20%23431/>
> >
> Thanks Graeme,
>
> Mystery solved! I wonder if anyone would have the MAIB article? Says
> in the posts it was March, but never mentioned what year. March 2004?
>
> Looks like the bow section was given a similar treatment as Don
> Baldwinson did on his Micro Navigator. And the two brackets in the
> bow well are for routing the spinnaker sheeting I guess?
>
> Great looking hull, but not an "instant" boat construction like
> Black Skimmer. Probably require a building jig. And not much
> headroom below deck. But what a looker! And I bet it could boogie on
> a broad reach eh? You might want an active crew aboard though.
>
> Nels
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
Mystery solved! I wonder if anyone would have the MAIB article? Says
in the posts it was March, but never mentioned what year. March 2004?
Looks like the bow section was given a similar treatment as Don
Baldwinson did on his Micro Navigator. And the two brackets in the
bow well are for routing the spinnaker sheeting I guess?
Great looking hull, but not an "instant" boat construction like
Black Skimmer. Probably require a building jig. And not much
headroom below deck. But what a looker! And I bet it could boogie on
a broad reach eh? You might want an active crew aboard though.
Nels
wrote:
>Thanks Graeme,
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Dido%20%20%23431/
>
Mystery solved! I wonder if anyone would have the MAIB article? Says
in the posts it was March, but never mentioned what year. March 2004?
Looks like the bow section was given a similar treatment as Don
Baldwinson did on his Micro Navigator. And the two brackets in the
bow well are for routing the spinnaker sheeting I guess?
Great looking hull, but not an "instant" boat construction like
Black Skimmer. Probably require a building jig. And not much
headroom below deck. But what a looker! And I bet it could boogie on
a broad reach eh? You might want an active crew aboard though.
Nels
> an article in MAIB.Hey, I remembered this one from a few years ago. Like her namesake
queen and heroic Aeneas' lover, so tragic she ended in fire. Other
craft have born the name without loss though. 25 ft 7in x 6ft 7in x
7" #431 I'll load the cartoon to files somewhere. If I don't see
it already someplace.
Yep, I distinctly remembered John Welsford commenting on the Dido
design at the boatdesign group, but no pics/scans anywhere it seems,
except at Peter Vanderwaart's page. That's funny because this is a
great small boat design - looks, bottom, rig, oars, cabin, COCKPIT.
More must have been built! I guess in some ways you get the goods
with Birdwatcher, and cheaper, but not in every way.
5 "Dido" hits on the boatdesign group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/msearch?
query=Dido&submit=Search&charset=windows-1252
For something of the interesting boatdesign group discussion context
in which Dido appeared (see msg #26057 "Directional Auto Stability
in Small Sailing Craft") threaded:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/messages/26002?
threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1
For the Dido MAIB issue particulars see message #26088:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/message/26088
MAIB Lines - This scan studied long and hard back when, for the
effects of Bolger flow theory sharpie chine curve (sop) conjoined to
plumb ends with vee-bottom bow and stern with no rocker. Kinda
similar hull lines presented in discussion as the best worst-case
sea-state survivor; and able to be skinned in sheet materials too!
Interesting:
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/Dido.jpg
I have vague recollections of Dido being discussed in relation to
Dugong and Dovkie someplaces too.
Graeme
Now, there was -
DIDO - Queen of Carthage (in Tunisia)
(Dido, also called Elissa, was princess of Tyre in Phoenicia.
Escaping tyranny in her country, she came to Libya where she founded
Carthage, a great city which Aeneas and his comrades, who had become
refugees after the sack of Troy, visited seven years after the end
of the Trojan War. As Queen of Carthage, she received the Trojans
exiles with hospitality, and having given Aeneas more love than he
could take, felt betrayed when he left for Italy, and committed
suicide - a botched job, that finished by FIRE. no joke. Some
resonance?http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Dido.html
http://courses.washington.edu/hum523/dido/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido);
"DIDO and Aeneas" Henry Purcell's opera; Marlowe wrote "Dido, Queen
of Carthage" in 1585, perhaps the first masterpiece of the English
stage; Chaucer etc. after Silius Italicus, Ovid, Virgil;
"DIDO" a 74 gun ship in "Ramage and the Dido" by Dudley Pope (on
PCB's bookshelf?) the last of the 18 Captain Lord Ramage novels; a
number of warships etc.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
support a Black Skimmer sized mast, yet the cabin is very similar in
length, and the size of leeboard support suggests a similar sized
leeboard. Maybe it was schooner rigged? Now that would be cool:-) But
then it probably would have had a bowsprit.
The break-down schooner has a partner somewhat the same. You insert
the heel of mast through the opening and walk it upright if I recall.
Maybe Bruce you could fax Bolger and suggest it as an article in MAIB.
I don't have access to a fax right now.
Nels
>a
> Dido is definitely a Bolger boat! Though I wonder how much of the
> stern in missing? Judging from the location of the leeboard guard,
> quite a bit, I am not sure it was smaller than a Black Skimmer. He
> does say that he wanted a smaller boat and that is why he chose a
> Birdwatcher. If Dido was longer, my guess is a sprit sail main and
> mizzen, partially because Bolger uses that rig so much. I am halfIt did not appear to me that the mast partner was large enough to
> guessing he reused the main mast on the Birdwatcher, that part of the
> boat didn't burn.
>
support a Black Skimmer sized mast, yet the cabin is very similar in
length, and the size of leeboard support suggests a similar sized
leeboard. Maybe it was schooner rigged? Now that would be cool:-) But
then it probably would have had a bowsprit.
The break-down schooner has a partner somewhat the same. You insert
the heel of mast through the opening and walk it upright if I recall.
Maybe Bruce you could fax Bolger and suggest it as an article in MAIB.
I don't have access to a fax right now.
Nels
Doing a quick and dirty mold is easy and cheap! I have
made a few of them over the years and they did the job
and the parts came out looking better then I had hoped
for.
Airex is one of your better cores but you also pay for
it as well.
Anyway Blessings All
Krissie
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
made a few of them over the years and they did the job
and the parts came out looking better then I had hoped
for.
Airex is one of your better cores but you also pay for
it as well.
Anyway Blessings All
Krissie
> He used airex foam in a female mold and did not use____________________________________________________________________________________
> plywood for his
> build.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Dido is definitely a Bolger boat! Though I wonder how much of the
stern in missing? Judging from the location of the leeboard guard,
quite a bit, I am not sure it was smaller than a Black Skimmer. He
does say that he wanted a smaller boat and that is why he chose a
Birdwatcher. If Dido was longer, my guess is a sprit sail main and a
mizzen, partially because Bolger uses that rig so much. I am half
guessing he reused the main mast on the Birdwatcher, that part of the
boat didn't burn.
stern in missing? Judging from the location of the leeboard guard,
quite a bit, I am not sure it was smaller than a Black Skimmer. He
does say that he wanted a smaller boat and that is why he chose a
Birdwatcher. If Dido was longer, my guess is a sprit sail main and a
mizzen, partially because Bolger uses that rig so much. I am half
guessing he reused the main mast on the Birdwatcher, that part of the
boat didn't burn.
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@> wrote:Looking more closely at the photo it really does look like an
> >
> > Can anybody tell us more about the custom Bolger design Dido? Is
> > there a MAIB writeup?
> >
> >http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/01med.jpg
> >
> Hi Bruce,
interesting design. Shows a mast tabernacle in a location that might
suggest it originally had a lug main. A forward well to hold ground
gear and a sealed floatation chamber in the bow.
Amd if you look closely it appears there are two brackets located
above the braced wooden extrusion on the hull suggesting it may have
had leeboards?
Hull design similar to a shorter version of a Black Skimmer. Bet it
may have had a mizzen and another floatation chamber in the stern as
well.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
If you do a search here with the word dido you will get 6 references
to it and the sleek BW.
As well as the email of kayaker37 who posted the link to the BW.
Last I heard from Aeneas his e-mail address was aeneas at sasktel dot
net, but he was talking about moving to Vancouver Is.
Nels
>Hi Bruce,
> Can anybody tell us more about the custom Bolger design Dido? Is
> there a MAIB writeup?
>
>http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/01med.jpg
>
If you do a search here with the word dido you will get 6 references
to it and the sleek BW.
As well as the email of kayaker37 who posted the link to the BW.
Last I heard from Aeneas his e-mail address was aeneas at sasktel dot
net, but he was talking about moving to Vancouver Is.
Nels
Can anybody tell us more about the custom Bolger design Dido? Is
there a MAIB writeup?
http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/01med.jpg
there a MAIB writeup?
http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/01med.jpg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Ron Badley <badley@...> wrote:
build.
Nels
>or???
> In think about this..... Isn't the Birdwatcher built with 24" tall
> parallel cut sides? So either a bunch of plywood was tossed away
> Anyone with plans care to comment?He used airex foam in a female mold and did not use plywood for his
>
> RonB.
build.
Nels
In think about this..... Isn't the Birdwatcher built with 24" tall
parallel cut sides? So either a bunch of plywood was tossed away or???
Anyone with plans care to comment?
RonB.
parallel cut sides? So either a bunch of plywood was tossed away or???
Anyone with plans care to comment?
RonB.
On 10-Apr-07, at 4:23 PM, Ron Badley wrote:
> Thanks Nels, that's the one. Seems all he did was take 3" of sheer
> out
> and extend the cabin sides back. The change is dramatic.
>
> RonB.
Thanks Nels, that's the one. Seems all he did was take 3" of sheer out
and extend the cabin sides back. The change is dramatic.
RonB.
and extend the cabin sides back. The change is dramatic.
RonB.
On 10-Apr-07, at 1:12 PM, Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Ron Badley <badley@...> wrote:
>>
>> I found a picture someplace, can't remember where, of a very sleek
>> looking Birdwatcher. I'm not sure if the hull sides are taller or
> the
>> plexi is shorter or a combination of both. Anyone know the boat I'm
>> talking about?
>>
>> RonB.
>>
>
> Is this the one?
>
>http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/Aeneas_Birdwatcher.html
>
> Aeneas Precht is the builder.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Ron Badley <badley@...> wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/Aeneas_Birdwatcher.html
Aeneas Precht is the builder.
Nels
>the
> I found a picture someplace, can't remember where, of a very sleek
> looking Birdwatcher. I'm not sure if the hull sides are taller or
> plexi is shorter or a combination of both. Anyone know the boat I'mIs this the one?
> talking about?
>
> RonB.
>
http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/Aeneas_Birdwatcher.html
Aeneas Precht is the builder.
Nels
I found a picture someplace, can't remember where, of a very sleek
looking Birdwatcher. I'm not sure if the hull sides are taller or the
plexi is shorter or a combination of both. Anyone know the boat I'm
talking about?
RonB.
looking Birdwatcher. I'm not sure if the hull sides are taller or the
plexi is shorter or a combination of both. Anyone know the boat I'm
talking about?
RonB.
Hi Bruce --
Sweet lines! Can you post a scan of the MAIB article?
Best,
Garth
Sweet lines! Can you post a scan of the MAIB article?
Best,
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> I am just swooning over the Bolger design 507, often overlooked, Glued
> Cliker Pram. Published in the July 1, 1992 MAIB.
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/507/507.png
>
> At 7'6" x 3'11" she hits exactly at the sweet spot for weight, size &
> stablity.
> Serving as a towable tender just big enough for a small motor.
>
> The wide flat bottom panel would give awesome stability, while the six
> strakes, double wide for the garboard and shearstrake with four narrow
> strakes in between at the turn of the bilge. She radiates elegance.
> (More than elegance an Elegant Punt, to my eye.)
>
> The three frames shown in my diagram are extended to a flat 24"
> baseline plane. I envision building the boat upside down on these
> frames, and then jigsawing the frames down to be ribs after the hull
> is straked up and rigid.
>
I agreee with all you say, Bruce, and I'd like to thank you for
producing this series of representations of Bolger boats. Please
continue.
Howard
producing this series of representations of Bolger boats. Please
continue.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> I am just swooning over the Bolger design 507, often overlooked,
Glued
> Cliker Pram. Published in the July 1, 1992 MAIB.
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/507/507.png
>
> At 7'6" x 3'11" she hits exactly at the sweet spot for weight,
size &
> stablity.
> Serving as a towable tender just big enough for a small motor.
>
> The wide flat bottom panel would give awesome stability, while the
six
> strakes, double wide for the garboard and shearstrake with four
narrow
> strakes in between at the turn of the bilge. She radiates
elegance.
> (More than elegance an Elegant Punt, to my eye.)
>
> The three frames shown in my diagram are extended to a flat 24"
> baseline plane. I envision building the boat upside down on these
> frames, and then jigsawing the frames down to be ribs after the
hull
> is straked up and rigid.
>
I am just swooning over the Bolger design 507, often overlooked, Glued
Cliker Pram. Published in the July 1, 1992 MAIB.
http://hallman.org/bolger/507/507.png
At 7'6" x 3'11" she hits exactly at the sweet spot for weight, size &
stablity.
Serving as a towable tender just big enough for a small motor.
The wide flat bottom panel would give awesome stability, while the six
strakes, double wide for the garboard and shearstrake with four narrow
strakes in between at the turn of the bilge. She radiates elegance.
(More than elegance an Elegant Punt, to my eye.)
The three frames shown in my diagram are extended to a flat 24"
baseline plane. I envision building the boat upside down on these
frames, and then jigsawing the frames down to be ribs after the hull
is straked up and rigid.
Cliker Pram. Published in the July 1, 1992 MAIB.
http://hallman.org/bolger/507/507.png
At 7'6" x 3'11" she hits exactly at the sweet spot for weight, size &
stablity.
Serving as a towable tender just big enough for a small motor.
The wide flat bottom panel would give awesome stability, while the six
strakes, double wide for the garboard and shearstrake with four narrow
strakes in between at the turn of the bilge. She radiates elegance.
(More than elegance an Elegant Punt, to my eye.)
The three frames shown in my diagram are extended to a flat 24"
baseline plane. I envision building the boat upside down on these
frames, and then jigsawing the frames down to be ribs after the hull
is straked up and rigid.