Re: as 19 and 29 n such
Am on with setting up a small steel boatbuilding
operation with some friends - not commercial,our first
project is doubling the bottom plate on a 35ft
narrowboat,which is why I said I might be able to get
some figures on the drapeability of 6mm plate,because
the plate is about the size one would use for an
AS29.I like the idea of a Col.Hassler but at 6'7" am a
bit dubious if I'd fit in one - has anybody got any
plans for it to check this out please.
cheers
Andy Airey
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operation with some friends - not commercial,our first
project is doubling the bottom plate on a 35ft
narrowboat,which is why I said I might be able to get
some figures on the drapeability of 6mm plate,because
the plate is about the size one would use for an
AS29.I like the idea of a Col.Hassler but at 6'7" am a
bit dubious if I'd fit in one - has anybody got any
plans for it to check this out please.
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
25 years ago working in a wood stove shop we used 10 gage for external
air chambers on fireplace inserts. We used 1/8" 6011 at 150 amps.
Tricky but doable. Lots of close tacks and tight seams then run it fast
and steady. If you stoped or slowed down in a run it would blow a 1/4"
hole. To fill the hole we let it cool then layed a 1/8" rod in it for
filler and hit the spot with the stinger again. Like gas welding with a
arc welder. Down hill was easyest.
Jon
air chambers on fireplace inserts. We used 1/8" 6011 at 150 amps.
Tricky but doable. Lots of close tacks and tight seams then run it fast
and steady. If you stoped or slowed down in a run it would blow a 1/4"
hole. To fill the hole we let it cool then layed a 1/8" rod in it for
filler and hit the spot with the stinger again. Like gas welding with a
arc welder. Down hill was easyest.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> 1/8" 6011 rod?
>
OK you have two choises .035 S70 hard wire or go to
.045 duel shield. As for shield gas 75%25% (75 % argon
25% CO2) would be fine but some of them work fine with
just CO2. You would need to ask your supplyer. Yes mig
= GMAW = Wirefeed. The nice thing with the duel
shield is you get hotter starts so you are less likely
to have pinholes.
Who ever said to pour diesel on one side to see if it
run out the other side. That's spoken like someone
that has never worked steel or Alu. If you are going
to check for leaks use AIR and soappy water and brush
on ALL the seams. You should be able to seal the boat
up for testing. We did it all the time at Uniflite. We
used a big fan that would give us about 1/2 psi. We
could find leaking underwater fittings doing it.
I learned to weld when a wirefeed was called MIG. The
GMAW and GTAW (TIG) is all new names for old names.
You have a lot of choises in wire and gases. You just
have to take your time and get the setup right before
you start welding.
Blessings Krissie
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.045 duel shield. As for shield gas 75%25% (75 % argon
25% CO2) would be fine but some of them work fine with
just CO2. You would need to ask your supplyer. Yes mig
= GMAW = Wirefeed. The nice thing with the duel
shield is you get hotter starts so you are less likely
to have pinholes.
Who ever said to pour diesel on one side to see if it
run out the other side. That's spoken like someone
that has never worked steel or Alu. If you are going
to check for leaks use AIR and soappy water and brush
on ALL the seams. You should be able to seal the boat
up for testing. We did it all the time at Uniflite. We
used a big fan that would give us about 1/2 psi. We
could find leaking underwater fittings doing it.
I learned to weld when a wirefeed was called MIG. The
GMAW and GTAW (TIG) is all new names for old names.
You have a lot of choises in wire and gases. You just
have to take your time and get the setup right before
you start welding.
Blessings Krissie
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
> Could someone 'talk technical' about welding 12____________________________________________________________________________________
> gauge metal? I am
> kind of clueless.
> MIG (GMAW) Wirefeed I presume? AWS class?
> Shielding gas?
>
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I personally prefer 6011. Some will say that a beginner should start with 6013. It's easier to get a prettier weld with 6013, but it has less tolerance in the arc length to get a complete weld. If the arc length gets too long, and not by much, 6013 has a tendency to leave a gap down the middle of the weld. I never use 6013 on anything anymore. I've never had a completely satisfactory experience with it. With practice, 6011 welds look as nice as any but the very best MIG welds.
6010 is the same cellulose based flux, but DC only. AC welds through rust or other minor contaminants much better than DC. AC has a "cleansing" action.
1/8" could be a bit much for 12 ga. I would use 3/32", less likely to burn through. It's nearly a toss-up, though. 12 ga is only a little on the thin side for the heat of 1/8".
6010 is the same cellulose based flux, but DC only. AC welds through rust or other minor contaminants much better than DC. AC has a "cleansing" action.
1/8" could be a bit much for 12 ga. I would use 3/32", less likely to burn through. It's nearly a toss-up, though. 12 ga is only a little on the thin side for the heat of 1/8".
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: as 19 and 29 n such
1/8" 6011 rod?
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1/8" 6011 rod?
Wire feed would work. Personally, I only use MIG as a last resort. My first choice is TIG for finesse and quality of weld, second choice is stick if there's a reason not to use TIG. I would stick weld a 12 ga. boat. MIG is no fun, and expensive requiring extra shielding gas, outside. I've never built a 12 ga boat, but I would start by tacking every seam just enough to hold the overall shape then do welds an inch long, progressing to 2 inches, maybe more, if distortion wasn't a problem, alternating side to side, front to back, seam to seam to spread out the heat as much as possible.
Stick would be preferable to TIG because it would produce less distortion and be faster and cheaper. Another problem with MIG is cold starts, of which there would be many, many due to the requisite alternation of weld locations. When a MIG or stick weld starts (cold), penetration is less and there's more likely to be a leak. MIG requires welding forward a bit to heat up the base metal then backtrack to finish the penetration on the start, leaving a bit of a hump in the weld. The same happens with stick welding, but much less so. I've never needed to backtrack cold starts when stick welding. Plenty of people, I'm sure, would prefer MIG in this situation. To each his/her own. 12 ga is plenty thick for stick welding. 16 ga is thick enough with the right heat, polarity and rod. I've stick welded 22 ga, but anything thinner than 16 ga gets tricky.
Stick would be preferable to TIG because it would produce less distortion and be faster and cheaper. Another problem with MIG is cold starts, of which there would be many, many due to the requisite alternation of weld locations. When a MIG or stick weld starts (cold), penetration is less and there's more likely to be a leak. MIG requires welding forward a bit to heat up the base metal then backtrack to finish the penetration on the start, leaving a bit of a hump in the weld. The same happens with stick welding, but much less so. I've never needed to backtrack cold starts when stick welding. Plenty of people, I'm sure, would prefer MIG in this situation. To each his/her own. 12 ga is plenty thick for stick welding. 16 ga is thick enough with the right heat, polarity and rod. I've stick welded 22 ga, but anything thinner than 16 ga gets tricky.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: as 19 and 29 n such
Could someone 'talk technical' about welding 12 gauge metal? I am
kind of clueless.
MIG (GMAW) Wirefeed I presume? AWS class? Shielding gas?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Could someone 'talk technical' about welding 12 gauge metal? I am
kind of clueless.
MIG (GMAW) Wirefeed I presume? AWS class? Shielding gas?
kind of clueless.
MIG (GMAW) Wirefeed I presume? AWS class? Shielding gas?
I'll second what Krissie said. Alignment and water tight welds would be no problem. The trick with alignment is not trying to get all 20 feet *perfectly* aligned all at once. Get it all close then go for perfection within 2 feet of laying new weld. The biggest problem would be keeping distortion of such thin steel from ruining the fairness of the hull. Staggering welds fixes most of the problem, at least, but I would still be concerned about not getting a fair hull out of the deal.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: as 19 and 29 n such
On 3/21/07, m_doles <m_doles@...> wrote:
> seep through to the other side. Grind out the area and reweld it.
Do you personally think that 20 foot long seams between 12 gauge metal
sheets could be aligned, and welded easily?
If yes, then someone should build a Col. Hassler.
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On 3/21/07, m_doles <m_doles@...> wrote:
sheets could be aligned, and welded easily?
If yes, then someone should build a Col. Hassler.
> seep through to the other side. Grind out the area and reweld it.Do you personally think that 20 foot long seams between 12 gauge metal
sheets could be aligned, and welded easily?
If yes, then someone should build a Col. Hassler.
It is easy to tell if the weld is water tight. Just spray diesel on
one side of the weld. If there is any nonfused area the diesel will
seep through to the other side. Grind out the area and reweld it.
one side of the weld. If there is any nonfused area the diesel will
seep through to the other side. Grind out the area and reweld it.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > 'Colonel Hasler'
>
> ...I recall, the hull is mostly specified to get 1/8" (3mm). Which
is
> falls right between 10 gauge and 12 gauge. Personally, I fear that
> welding gauge metal that thin to be watertight is a tough skill to
> master.
>
Welding that thin of sheet and getting water tight
welds is easy. I've built a lot of tanks out of 1/8
inch sheet. The skill is keeping it something near
fair from the heat pulling from the welding!!
I will say welding them up with a wirefeed useing some
of the newer wires does make the job a lot easer over
the tried and true stick welding, and I have done a
bit of that too.
I have seen a few guys that could lay the rod and wire
down so nicely it looked like a robot weld. I could do
the same thing with the wirefeed but my stick work was
good but not like theirs!
Steel is a good choise for a hull if you are willing
to have the prep work done to the steel before welding
or painting. Namely have the stuff wheelbrated and
primed with a weld through primer on all your parts.
Blessings Kristine
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welds is easy. I've built a lot of tanks out of 1/8
inch sheet. The skill is keeping it something near
fair from the heat pulling from the welding!!
I will say welding them up with a wirefeed useing some
of the newer wires does make the job a lot easer over
the tried and true stick welding, and I have done a
bit of that too.
I have seen a few guys that could lay the rod and wire
down so nicely it looked like a robot weld. I could do
the same thing with the wirefeed but my stick work was
good but not like theirs!
Steel is a good choise for a hull if you are willing
to have the prep work done to the steel before welding
or painting. Namely have the stuff wheelbrated and
primed with a weld through primer on all your parts.
Blessings Kristine
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
> > 'Colonel Hasler'____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> ...I recall, the hull is mostly specified to get
> 1/8" (3mm). Which is
> falls right between 10 gauge and 12 gauge.
> Personally, I fear that
> welding gauge metal that thin to be watertight is a
> tough skill to
> master.
>
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> 'Colonel Hasler'...I recall, the hull is mostly specified to get 1/8" (3mm). Which is
falls right between 10 gauge and 12 gauge. Personally, I fear that
welding gauge metal that thin to be watertight is a tough skill to
master.
Hi
I was just passing on some figures I'd been sent.£mm
seems to be the minimum thickness usually quoted fo
reasonable weldability and corrosion resistance,as in
'Colonel Hasler'
cheers
Andy Airey
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I was just passing on some figures I'd been sent.£mm
seems to be the minimum thickness usually quoted fo
reasonable weldability and corrosion resistance,as in
'Colonel Hasler'
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
This one has been going around for some time. Steel is about twelve
times heavier than plywood. So 3mm steel plate is equivalent to about
36mm of plywood. I'd guess that the AS29 is designed for 12mm plywood
sides. It's a light displacement design that can't possibly bear the
extra weight of being built out of steel, unless you used much thinner
steel (1mm?) that wouldn't last five minutes in salt water.
Aluminium is only about five times denser than plywood. So 3mm of it
would be something like the same weight as 12mm ply. But I have no
idea whether it would be strong/stiff enough.
Howard
times heavier than plywood. So 3mm steel plate is equivalent to about
36mm of plywood. I'd guess that the AS29 is designed for 12mm plywood
sides. It's a light displacement design that can't possibly bear the
extra weight of being built out of steel, unless you used much thinner
steel (1mm?) that wouldn't last five minutes in salt water.
Aluminium is only about five times denser than plywood. So 3mm of it
would be something like the same weight as 12mm ply. But I have no
idea whether it would be strong/stiff enough.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
>
> Why not do the logical thing and make the hull out of
> steel.I'm told that on the AS29 the calculated
> weight,presumeably using 3mm plate for the
> sides,actually comes out less than the wooden hull
> with plate ballast,but have not checked this out
Why not do the logical thing and make the hull out of
steel.I'm told that on the AS29 the calculated
weight,presumeably using 3mm plate for the
sides,actually comes out less than the wooden hull
with plate ballast,but have not checked this out.Am
not sure how well 6mm plate will drape,or be pullable
into position,without damaging the wooden hull - UK
narrowboat builders pull it into the curve when
forming the bows,and may well use the same technique
when forming the bottom with 10mm plate.You could
always get the plate curved first,and then build the
wooden boat on top of that.May have some answers in a
few weeks time when we get round to doubling up the
bottom on a 35ft narrowboat since that will require a
30x7ft plate.Most of the bottom is flat,but it has to
be curved up at the bow
cheers
Andy Airey
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steel.I'm told that on the AS29 the calculated
weight,presumeably using 3mm plate for the
sides,actually comes out less than the wooden hull
with plate ballast,but have not checked this out.Am
not sure how well 6mm plate will drape,or be pullable
into position,without damaging the wooden hull - UK
narrowboat builders pull it into the curve when
forming the bows,and may well use the same technique
when forming the bottom with 10mm plate.You could
always get the plate curved first,and then build the
wooden boat on top of that.May have some answers in a
few weeks time when we get round to doubling up the
bottom on a 35ft narrowboat since that will require a
30x7ft plate.Most of the bottom is flat,but it has to
be curved up at the bow
cheers
Andy Airey
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Is the fax number quoted for PCB and F the
international number - I'd be faxing from the UK
cheers
Andy Airey
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international number - I'd be faxing from the UK
cheers
Andy Airey
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Any of the larger steel shops can form the sheet/plate
to your pattern of your hull bottom. At one shop we
had plates formed in 1/4 cones and the like all the
time. As well as 3 and 4 inch pipe rolled to a pattern
for caps and rub rails.
Getting the plate shaped to the bottom if the hull is
easy just not cheap.
Blessings Krissie
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to your pattern of your hull bottom. At one shop we
had plates formed in 1/4 cones and the like all the
time. As well as 3 and 4 inch pipe rolled to a pattern
for caps and rub rails.
Getting the plate shaped to the bottom if the hull is
easy just not cheap.
Blessings Krissie
> The revised plan shows 2000 lbs of steel plating____________________________________________________________________________________
> attached to the outside of the bottom. This adds to
> the complexity of the build (try to get the steel
> plates bent to match the curve of the bottom) but
> makes the bottom very strong and able to resist
> damage
> from groundings better.
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In my AS-19, the ballast was in the form of about 4 lead bars. Each
bar was partly melted-partly pounded together consisting of lead shot
collected from the battlefields around Williamsburg, VA. The bars
were bolted to the floor frames using galvanized threaded rod. You
can't see the ballast, but here is the boat.
http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/as19/
Mike
bar was partly melted-partly pounded together consisting of lead shot
collected from the battlefields around Williamsburg, VA. The bars
were bolted to the floor frames using galvanized threaded rod. You
can't see the ballast, but here is the boat.
http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/as19/
Mike
On Mar 10, 2007, at 7:18 PM, ron17571 wrote:
> Hi,ive seen some photos and some info,but where can i find the plans?
> like them square boats!read that it has ballast?where? in a hollow
> floor or leeboards?
>
>
>
Mike Stockstill
mkstocks@...
http://mkstocks.tripod.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The AS-29 has 2 ballast schemesIf my memory is correct, the AS19 has a bar of lead low down in the
center of the boat, about 4 inches square, full width of the hull,
weighing about 500 lbs. Someone with the plans might have better
information than my memory.
The AS-29 has 2 ballast schemes: the original plan
shows 1000 lbs of lead under the galley cabinets on
each side. I built mine with this ballast arrangement
and it works just fine.
The revised plan shows 2000 lbs of steel plating
attached to the outside of the bottom. This adds to
the complexity of the build (try to get the steel
plates bent to match the curve of the bottom) but
makes the bottom very strong and able to resist damage
from groundings better.
As for plans, write to:
Phil Bolger and Friends
P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA 01930
or fax him at: (978) 282-1349
Hope this helps,
Mike
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shows 1000 lbs of lead under the galley cabinets on
each side. I built mine with this ballast arrangement
and it works just fine.
The revised plan shows 2000 lbs of steel plating
attached to the outside of the bottom. This adds to
the complexity of the build (try to get the steel
plates bent to match the curve of the bottom) but
makes the bottom very strong and able to resist damage
from groundings better.
As for plans, write to:
Phil Bolger and Friends
P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA 01930
or fax him at: (978) 282-1349
Hope this helps,
Mike
--- ron17571 <ron17571@...> wrote:
> Hi,ive seen some photos and some info,but where can____________________________________________________________________________________
> i find the plans?
> like them square boats!read that it has
> ballast?where? in a hollow
> floor or leeboards?
>
>
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Hi,ive seen some photos and some info,but where can i find the plans?
like them square boats!read that it has ballast?where? in a hollow
floor or leeboards?
like them square boats!read that it has ballast?where? in a hollow
floor or leeboards?