Re: [bolger] Re: Epoxy, chemical test, weight change
Mike not all polyester has wax in it. I know you will
not find any in your layup resins but you will find it
in your finshing and casting resins.
The other thing you have to keep an eye on is your
scendary bond time some resins it'a day or two and
others as much as a week.
I have used a fair bit of resin and do know a bit
about the stuff seeing how we would use 1 to 1 1/2
drums of it a day. We had to know the tec side of it
as well. How much catalyst to use to get a 30 to 45
min gel time at a given temp. At one shop we used 3
diffrent resins and you had to know what they were for
them all.
I earned the title resin rat both by doing and
knowing. But I have not used it much in the past 20
years and they are coming up with new stuff all the
time so what I remember is dated.
Blessings Krissie
--- mkriley48 <mkriley@...> wrote:
The fish are biting.
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not find any in your layup resins but you will find it
in your finshing and casting resins.
The other thing you have to keep an eye on is your
scendary bond time some resins it'a day or two and
others as much as a week.
I have used a fair bit of resin and do know a bit
about the stuff seeing how we would use 1 to 1 1/2
drums of it a day. We had to know the tec side of it
as well. How much catalyst to use to get a 30 to 45
min gel time at a given temp. At one shop we used 3
diffrent resins and you had to know what they were for
them all.
I earned the title resin rat both by doing and
knowing. But I have not used it much in the past 20
years and they are coming up with new stuff all the
time so what I remember is dated.
Blessings Krissie
--- mkriley48 <mkriley@...> wrote:
> the biggest problem for most people is not even____________________________________________________________________________________
> being mentioned here
> in this discussion.
> polyester resin is air inhibited so that means the
> surface will not
> cure. This is fixed by putting wax that floats on
> the surface of the
> resin. This prevents good adhesion to the next layer
> and to wood.
> MOST resin has this wax in it and makes it
> unsuitable for overcoating
> wood. The are many examples of production boats that
> have their
> original polyester fiberglass coatings over wood
> after 50 years of
> constant immersion such as Huckins for one.
>
> mike
>
>
>
The fish are biting.
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the biggest problem for most people is not even being mentioned here
in this discussion.
polyester resin is air inhibited so that means the surface will not
cure. This is fixed by putting wax that floats on the surface of the
resin. This prevents good adhesion to the next layer and to wood.
MOST resin has this wax in it and makes it unsuitable for overcoating
wood. The are many examples of production boats that have their
original polyester fiberglass coatings over wood after 50 years of
constant immersion such as Huckins for one.
mike
in this discussion.
polyester resin is air inhibited so that means the surface will not
cure. This is fixed by putting wax that floats on the surface of the
resin. This prevents good adhesion to the next layer and to wood.
MOST resin has this wax in it and makes it unsuitable for overcoating
wood. The are many examples of production boats that have their
original polyester fiberglass coatings over wood after 50 years of
constant immersion such as Huckins for one.
mike
Water transfer in order of worst to least is Poly.. Vinal.. Epoxy and
they are priced the same way. The more that can get through the less it
costs. The same order applys to health dangers in use and exposures so
follow the rules of use. Glass mat is only good for build up as it has
little stringth in any direction one direction and uses a lot of
whatever you soak it with. Devlin uses only 6 OZ. glass cloth and how
many layers depends on the place and size of boat. The biggest problem
for home builders is following all the does and don'ts in use trying to
save time and money. Surface prep for good bond. Seal wood when temp is
droping so it soakes in better. Removing ALL blush and sand between
coatings in sealing ply, glassing, filling and fairing. Then painting
with primers that block osmoses and a good bottom paint. If you want to
keep it or pass it on it takes a lot of work and is worth it. If it is
going to be in the water little and needs to last only a few years use
old sheets and lots of paint after building it fast and dirty. It is
your boat and pride so do what works for you.
Jon
they are priced the same way. The more that can get through the less it
costs. The same order applys to health dangers in use and exposures so
follow the rules of use. Glass mat is only good for build up as it has
little stringth in any direction one direction and uses a lot of
whatever you soak it with. Devlin uses only 6 OZ. glass cloth and how
many layers depends on the place and size of boat. The biggest problem
for home builders is following all the does and don'ts in use trying to
save time and money. Surface prep for good bond. Seal wood when temp is
droping so it soakes in better. Removing ALL blush and sand between
coatings in sealing ply, glassing, filling and fairing. Then painting
with primers that block osmoses and a good bottom paint. If you want to
keep it or pass it on it takes a lot of work and is worth it. If it is
going to be in the water little and needs to last only a few years use
old sheets and lots of paint after building it fast and dirty. It is
your boat and pride so do what works for you.
Jon
The mistake MOST people do is use the cloth or roveing
and don't use mat with it. Mat tends to be the sealer
and binder between layers.
You also have to get the right resin you have the Isos
and Ortos. So not all polyesters are the same.
I have done layup with cloth and vail that were both
light and strong and no fuel leaks in the tank. I have
also used the Nexis cloth a little as well I do like
the stipple finsh you get would work good for decks
and a antiskid. But white sand in the paint or gelcoat
works even better.
I have never slipped on deck with sand. Even when the
deck was covered with fish blood and slime and it was
rough as well. It was blowing 35 with gusts over 45
kts. A hard way to make a living but was better then
punching a time clock! So what am I doing now?
Punching a time clock.
Blessings All Kristine
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
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and don't use mat with it. Mat tends to be the sealer
and binder between layers.
You also have to get the right resin you have the Isos
and Ortos. So not all polyesters are the same.
I have done layup with cloth and vail that were both
light and strong and no fuel leaks in the tank. I have
also used the Nexis cloth a little as well I do like
the stipple finsh you get would work good for decks
and a antiskid. But white sand in the paint or gelcoat
works even better.
I have never slipped on deck with sand. Even when the
deck was covered with fish blood and slime and it was
rough as well. It was blowing 35 with gusts over 45
kts. A hard way to make a living but was better then
punching a time clock! So what am I doing now?
Punching a time clock.
Blessings All Kristine
> I agree -- that is, I agree with your disagreeing.____________________________________________________________________________________
> My cedar strip
> canoe went through two polyester/glass skins before
> I smartened up
> and used epoxy. If you really want to use polyester
> to save money,
> be sure to paint it after -- that way you won't
> have to watch it
> delaminate until it falls to pieces.
>
> Jamie Orr
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
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I agree -- that is, I agree with your disagreeing. My cedar strip
canoe went through two polyester/glass skins before I smartened up
and used epoxy. If you really want to use polyester to save money,
be sure to paint it after -- that way you won't have to watch it
delaminate until it falls to pieces.
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
canoe went through two polyester/glass skins before I smartened up
and used epoxy. If you really want to use polyester to save money,
be sure to paint it after -- that way you won't have to watch it
delaminate until it falls to pieces.
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
>Buehler and
> Five years ago I actually tried the technique described by George
> his friend Geoff Baker which was described on that web page youmentioned
> below.refurbishing, we
>
> Two months ago when I brought the boat to the shop for
> discovered (to my dismay, but not to my surprise) that ALL thepolyresin and
> glass I had used to laminate the hull had separated from theunderlying
> plywood -- and it was easily peeled off in big sheets by hand, notools
> required.and
>
> After more than two decades working with lots of different epoxies
> polyester resins and wood, I knew intuitively that this wouldhappen sooner
> or later I guess. But I suppose I was hoping for a miracle orsomething so I
> gave it a try anyways. The experiment was a complete failure.information
>
> My conclusion is that I vehemently disagree with the misleading
> posted online by George Beuhler on that web page, and I will neveragain
> invest my time and money in such a hair-brained scheme.resins on
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday 21 March 2007 02:13:35 am JJ Johnson wrote:
> > Here is a link to an article I just found on useing Polyester
> > wooden boats. I haven't tried it yet, so don't hold me liable ifit
> > doesn't work...
> >
> >http://georgebuehler.com/Polyester%20and%20Plywood.html
>
I have used a lot of Polyester over wood. A number of
boats I help build in the early 70s are still putting
in full fishing seasons in Alaska.
The draw back to polyester is it's brittle it has
about 1/2 to 1% elongation and most of the fiberglass
is 3 to 5% So the resin brakes before the glass really
come into play.
The better choise would be to use the Vinylester it's
about half way between poly and epoxy price wise. It
is also stronger then poly by about 30% and it's
elongation is 5 to 8% so it is a much better match for
use with fiberglass.
Poly will let water vapor pass through it almost as
will That's why a lot of the older fiberglass boats
had blisters.
The Vinyl does not let this happen as easy that is why
most glass boat builders are useing it in their hulls.
I have used both and they are both a lot safer to use
then Epoxy from the toxin side of things. I have also
been playing with using it on my boat project when I
sheet the hull.
You can use epoxy over poly and vinylester but you can
not use them over epoxy I have been told. It seems
some of the agents in then attack the epoxy.
They also make a crosslinked poly/vinylester blend
that I understand works well.
I've been out of the fiberglass boat building for a
lot of years and they are coming up with new stuff all
the time. Also the numbers above are from stuff I had
read years ago so they are give or take.
Blessings Kristine
--- JJ Johnson <jjoftheusa@...> wrote:
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boats I help build in the early 70s are still putting
in full fishing seasons in Alaska.
The draw back to polyester is it's brittle it has
about 1/2 to 1% elongation and most of the fiberglass
is 3 to 5% So the resin brakes before the glass really
come into play.
The better choise would be to use the Vinylester it's
about half way between poly and epoxy price wise. It
is also stronger then poly by about 30% and it's
elongation is 5 to 8% so it is a much better match for
use with fiberglass.
Poly will let water vapor pass through it almost as
will That's why a lot of the older fiberglass boats
had blisters.
The Vinyl does not let this happen as easy that is why
most glass boat builders are useing it in their hulls.
I have used both and they are both a lot safer to use
then Epoxy from the toxin side of things. I have also
been playing with using it on my boat project when I
sheet the hull.
You can use epoxy over poly and vinylester but you can
not use them over epoxy I have been told. It seems
some of the agents in then attack the epoxy.
They also make a crosslinked poly/vinylester blend
that I understand works well.
I've been out of the fiberglass boat building for a
lot of years and they are coming up with new stuff all
the time. Also the numbers above are from stuff I had
read years ago so they are give or take.
Blessings Kristine
--- JJ Johnson <jjoftheusa@...> wrote:
> Hello to Allhttp://georgebuehler.com/Polyester%20and%20Plywood.html
> Epoxy sure slows the passage of water vapor from the
> atmosphere to the
> wood in our boats. If you really want to know the
> truth, nothing will
> absolutely stop the intrusion of water. When you add
> a thining agent to
> make it soak deeper into the wood you actually make
> it less pervious to
> water intrusion. As the thinning agent vaporizes it
> leaves tiny holes
> for water to pass through and soak your wood.
>
> The best way to keep water out of your boat is not
> to launch it. Seeing
> as this would put most of us out of the boat
> business I do not think
> this is a real solution. Instead, put a minimum of
> three thick coats of
> epoxy (unthinned) on every surface of every piece of
> wood in your boat.
>
> If this is to costly for you, you're in the same
> boat that I am. So
> here is a link to an article I just found on useing
> Polyester resins on
> wooden boats. I haven't tried it yet, so don't hold
> me liable if it
> doesn't work...
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
Never miss an email again!
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Five years ago I actually tried the technique described by George Buehler and
his friend Geoff Baker which was described on that web page you mentioned
below.
Two months ago when I brought the boat to the shop for refurbishing, we
discovered (to my dismay, but not to my surprise) that ALL the polyresin and
glass I had used to laminate the hull had separated from the underlying
plywood -- and it was easily peeled off in big sheets by hand, no tools
required.
After more than two decades working with lots of different epoxies and
polyester resins and wood, I knew intuitively that this would happen sooner
or later I guess. But I suppose I was hoping for a miracle or something so I
gave it a try anyways. The experiment was a complete failure.
My conclusion is that I vehemently disagree with the misleading information
posted online by George Beuhler on that web page, and I will never again
invest my time and money in such a hair-brained scheme.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
his friend Geoff Baker which was described on that web page you mentioned
below.
Two months ago when I brought the boat to the shop for refurbishing, we
discovered (to my dismay, but not to my surprise) that ALL the polyresin and
glass I had used to laminate the hull had separated from the underlying
plywood -- and it was easily peeled off in big sheets by hand, no tools
required.
After more than two decades working with lots of different epoxies and
polyester resins and wood, I knew intuitively that this would happen sooner
or later I guess. But I suppose I was hoping for a miracle or something so I
gave it a try anyways. The experiment was a complete failure.
My conclusion is that I vehemently disagree with the misleading information
posted online by George Beuhler on that web page, and I will never again
invest my time and money in such a hair-brained scheme.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 02:13:35 am JJ Johnson wrote:
> Here is a link to an article I just found on useing Polyester resins on
> wooden boats. I haven't tried it yet, so don't hold me liable if it
> doesn't work...
>
>http://georgebuehler.com/Polyester%20and%20Plywood.html
I thought the old army motto was 'If it moves salute
it and if it doesn't - paint it'
Cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
it and if it doesn't - paint it'
Cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Hello to All
Epoxy sure slows the passage of water vapor from the atmosphere to the
wood in our boats. If you really want to know the truth, nothing will
absolutely stop the intrusion of water. When you add a thining agent to
make it soak deeper into the wood you actually make it less pervious to
water intrusion. As the thinning agent vaporizes it leaves tiny holes
for water to pass through and soak your wood.
The best way to keep water out of your boat is not to launch it. Seeing
as this would put most of us out of the boat business I do not think
this is a real solution. Instead, put a minimum of three thick coats of
epoxy (unthinned) on every surface of every piece of wood in your boat.
If this is to costly for you, you're in the same boat that I am. So
here is a link to an article I just found on useing Polyester resins on
wooden boats. I haven't tried it yet, so don't hold me liable if it
doesn't work...
http://georgebuehler.com/Polyester%20and%20Plywood.html
Epoxy sure slows the passage of water vapor from the atmosphere to the
wood in our boats. If you really want to know the truth, nothing will
absolutely stop the intrusion of water. When you add a thining agent to
make it soak deeper into the wood you actually make it less pervious to
water intrusion. As the thinning agent vaporizes it leaves tiny holes
for water to pass through and soak your wood.
The best way to keep water out of your boat is not to launch it. Seeing
as this would put most of us out of the boat business I do not think
this is a real solution. Instead, put a minimum of three thick coats of
epoxy (unthinned) on every surface of every piece of wood in your boat.
If this is to costly for you, you're in the same boat that I am. So
here is a link to an article I just found on useing Polyester resins on
wooden boats. I haven't tried it yet, so don't hold me liable if it
doesn't work...
http://georgebuehler.com/Polyester%20and%20Plywood.html
One of the more useless studies commissioned with our tax dollars was done by the U.S.Army in the 1950s. They found that leaving wood unpainted, and replacing it when it rotted, was much more cost effective than painting it.
Now this applied to wooden barracks, not boats, and no Post Commander is going to have such unsightly objects around, but it's something to think about.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Now this applied to wooden barracks, not boats, and no Post Commander is going to have such unsightly objects around, but it's something to think about.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth Grome
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Epoxy, chemical test, weight change
> Maybe Dave Carnell is right about epoxy saturation
> not keeping out water and rot, and instead just use
> easier/cheaper acrylic paint?
There's more to it than that. Take longevity for example ...
Anyone who has compared paint on wood with paint on epoxy will tell you that
paint on epoxy lasts a lot longer than paint on wood.
In other words, even though epoxy doesn't make the boat any more "waterproof"
it certainly helps the paint last a lot longer.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Maybe Dave Carnell is right about epoxy saturationThere's more to it than that. Take longevity for example ...
> not keeping out water and rot, and instead just use
> easier/cheaper acrylic paint?
Anyone who has compared paint on wood with paint on epoxy will tell you that
paint on epoxy lasts a lot longer than paint on wood.
In other words, even though epoxy doesn't make the boat any more "waterproof"
it certainly helps the paint last a lot longer.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Epoxy and glass are for strength and abrasion resistance something
you can't get from acrylic paint long term. Epoxy and glass can take
on water and if light get to the wood with long exposer. There are
hull primers and paints that are made to prevent osmoses. If the boat
is in the water for say a few days and in the dry most the time it is
not a concern. With bigger boats that may be in the water for a
season or year round it is something to think about.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
you can't get from acrylic paint long term. Epoxy and glass can take
on water and if light get to the wood with long exposer. There are
hull primers and paints that are made to prevent osmoses. If the boat
is in the water for say a few days and in the dry most the time it is
not a concern. With bigger boats that may be in the water for a
season or year round it is something to think about.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>weight
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Máximo <grupos@> wrote:
>
> > CHEMICAL RESISTANCE TEST
> > 10 Day Soak Test @ 77°F (25°C)
> >
> > WEIGHT CHANGE %
> >
> > 3% Salt Water 1.23
>
> Is that a change in weight of the actual epoxy, or a change in
> of a wood substrate it's covering?water
>
> Maybe Dave Carnel is right about epoxy saturation not keeping out
> and rot, and instead just use easier/cheaper acrylic paint?
>
> Ross Lillistone swears by good paint alone - use glue for glue, and
> paint for paint.
>
> Graeme
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Máximo <grupos@...> wrote:
of a wood substrate it's covering?
Maybe Dave Carnel is right about epoxy saturation not keeping out water
and rot, and instead just use easier/cheaper acrylic paint?
Ross Lillistone swears by good paint alone - use glue for glue, and
paint for paint.
Graeme
> CHEMICAL RESISTANCE TESTIs that a change in weight of the actual epoxy, or a change in weight
> 10 Day Soak Test @ 77°F (25°C)
>
> WEIGHT CHANGE %
>
> 3% Salt Water 1.23
of a wood substrate it's covering?
Maybe Dave Carnel is right about epoxy saturation not keeping out water
and rot, and instead just use easier/cheaper acrylic paint?
Ross Lillistone swears by good paint alone - use glue for glue, and
paint for paint.
Graeme
A lot less transfer then Poly or Vinalester but in all cases the
epoxy needs to be sealed for a boat in the water full time. Wounder
why they chose 77 degrees here in the NW it is in the 50's and
wounder what differance temp makes.
Jon
epoxy needs to be sealed for a boat in the water full time. Wounder
why they chose 77 degrees here in the NW it is in the 50's and
wounder what differance temp makes.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Máximo <grupos@...> wrote:
>
> Looking at the ebay epoxy link
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/Epoxy-Resin-Boat-Building-LOW-VISCOSITY-MARINE-
GRADE_W0Q
> QitemZ270098539116QQcategoryZ26197QQcmdZViewItem
>
> I see this table:
>
> CHEMICAL RESISTANCE TEST
> 10 Day Soak Test @ 77°F (25°C)
>
> WEIGHT CHANGE %
>
> 3% Salt Water 1.23
> Sulfuric Acid 30% 1.9
> Nitric Acid 3.8
> Amonia 10% 3.7
> Sodium Hydroxide 10.00
> Anti-Freeze No Effect
> Motor Oil Soak No Effect
>
> How much salt seawater has? 1.23% in weight change is not that
much, but in
> 10 days... regards, Máximo.
>
Looking at the ebay epoxy link
http://cgi.ebay.com/Epoxy-Resin-Boat-Building-LOW-VISCOSITY-MARINE-GRADE_W0Q
QitemZ270098539116QQcategoryZ26197QQcmdZViewItem
I see this table:
CHEMICAL RESISTANCE TEST
10 Day Soak Test @ 77°F (25°C)
WEIGHT CHANGE %
3% Salt Water 1.23
Sulfuric Acid 30% 1.9
Nitric Acid 3.8
Amonia 10% 3.7
Sodium Hydroxide 10.00
Anti-Freeze No Effect
Motor Oil Soak No Effect
How much salt seawater has? 1.23% in weight change is not that much, but in
10 days... regards, Máximo.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Epoxy-Resin-Boat-Building-LOW-VISCOSITY-MARINE-GRADE_W0Q
QitemZ270098539116QQcategoryZ26197QQcmdZViewItem
I see this table:
CHEMICAL RESISTANCE TEST
10 Day Soak Test @ 77°F (25°C)
WEIGHT CHANGE %
3% Salt Water 1.23
Sulfuric Acid 30% 1.9
Nitric Acid 3.8
Amonia 10% 3.7
Sodium Hydroxide 10.00
Anti-Freeze No Effect
Motor Oil Soak No Effect
How much salt seawater has? 1.23% in weight change is not that much, but in
10 days... regards, Máximo.