Re: polyurethane/fibreglass
Confusion? Yes. I went to the source. Sorted. Instantly.
The first book of Payson (1979) doesn't spell out the ins and outs
of the different resins, just showing how to apply glass tape to the
chines. It does say there is never any problem with bonding glass to
plywood (except spruce), and that epoxy is reliable and easy to mix -
9 refs for: Epoxy (resin); Fibreglass; Glues.
The second book of Payson (1984) has it all. Check the index again:
12 references for Epoxy; resins, Polyester; Fibreglass;
Fibreglassing plywood; Glass taping. Page 15 particularly for
polyester curing re: air and added wax (that there are both
polyester resins with wax and those without isn't very clear, but it
is implicit on reading closely and he advises following label
instructions). "Bondo" is discussed.
What's the third book of Payson got? We'll see soon. The extra cost
of epoxy over that of polyester may have been even greater back in
1983. If that was the decider, and it's eased a bit now, then for
simplicity and clarity maybe Dynamite will mention only epoxy. Jim
Michalak mentions only epoxy in his 2002 book, though elsewhere he
says he personally uses cheap "Bondo", and other polyester resins
with no problems having showed over time.
It seems in 1984 Dynamite only uses epoxy as a wood sealer (or
polyester; the epoxy is better) and for glueing styrofoam (it
doesn't react and eat the foam like polyester does).
He writes on glues and sealers: "What's the matter with epoxies,
resorcinols, and all the other wonder glues? Nothing except the
price. And if you want to use a $40 bucket of glue when a $10 bucket
will do the job, go ahead"
Graeme
The first book of Payson (1979) doesn't spell out the ins and outs
of the different resins, just showing how to apply glass tape to the
chines. It does say there is never any problem with bonding glass to
plywood (except spruce), and that epoxy is reliable and easy to mix -
9 refs for: Epoxy (resin); Fibreglass; Glues.
The second book of Payson (1984) has it all. Check the index again:
12 references for Epoxy; resins, Polyester; Fibreglass;
Fibreglassing plywood; Glass taping. Page 15 particularly for
polyester curing re: air and added wax (that there are both
polyester resins with wax and those without isn't very clear, but it
is implicit on reading closely and he advises following label
instructions). "Bondo" is discussed.
What's the third book of Payson got? We'll see soon. The extra cost
of epoxy over that of polyester may have been even greater back in
1983. If that was the decider, and it's eased a bit now, then for
simplicity and clarity maybe Dynamite will mention only epoxy. Jim
Michalak mentions only epoxy in his 2002 book, though elsewhere he
says he personally uses cheap "Bondo", and other polyester resins
with no problems having showed over time.
It seems in 1984 Dynamite only uses epoxy as a wood sealer (or
polyester; the epoxy is better) and for glueing styrofoam (it
doesn't react and eat the foam like polyester does).
He writes on glues and sealers: "What's the matter with epoxies,
resorcinols, and all the other wonder glues? Nothing except the
price. And if you want to use a $40 bucket of glue when a $10 bucket
will do the job, go ahead"
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <Robb@...> wrote:
Mike and co. are really clearing up the confusion on this issue
which has seemed to go round and round and round. What Mike says and
what I just read in this message from another Mike also in the
business seems to clear up lots of confusion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/message/39662
How the confusing stories arose?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/message/39663?l=1
If the right unwaxed resins can be had then it should stick well to
wood. Now, there's only all the other trade-offs between epoxy,
vinyl, and poly to consider.
My take as it stands now is that for a small, workboat finished,
somewhat quick and dirty built, wood boat; polyester probably will
be fine for sheathing in glass. If you get the unwaxed resin it will
stick the abrasion protecting reinforcing layer on well enough.
That's all it has to do, and it's cheaper. Probably the stuff Payson
used all those years ago. Use epoxy or polyurethane for structural
gluing. Coat with latex paint. Is that right?
Graeme
> How can one be sure that the polyester resin is non-waxed? Wheredo you get styrene?
Mike and co. are really clearing up the confusion on this issue
which has seemed to go round and round and round. What Mike says and
what I just read in this message from another Mike also in the
business seems to clear up lots of confusion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/message/39662
How the confusing stories arose?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/message/39663?l=1
If the right unwaxed resins can be had then it should stick well to
wood. Now, there's only all the other trade-offs between epoxy,
vinyl, and poly to consider.
My take as it stands now is that for a small, workboat finished,
somewhat quick and dirty built, wood boat; polyester probably will
be fine for sheathing in glass. If you get the unwaxed resin it will
stick the abrasion protecting reinforcing layer on well enough.
That's all it has to do, and it's cheaper. Probably the stuff Payson
used all those years ago. Use epoxy or polyurethane for structural
gluing. Coat with latex paint. Is that right?
Graeme
Hey thanks for all the good info. I rough things up for glue joints using epoxy similar to what you are saying. Makes sense to me with polyester resin. I may have to throw together a brick or something to test all of this. Its been a long time since I used polyester for anything. The last time I used it was in the early 80's on a skimmer which did NOT hold up well at all......Thanks again...Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristine Bennett
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: polyurethane/fibreglass
Rob I know some of the guys are going to scoff at what
I'm going to say but all resins like to bond to
something that has some tooth to it I like to give the
wood a pass with something like 24 grit on a da
sander. All you want to do is rough it up.
You should be able to get styrene and cobolt from your
glass supplyer. I know you can get it at
www.fiberglasssupply.com.
If you prime it late friday night and then start
glassing the next morning is OK. I like to let the
prime coat get tacky and then start glassing.
You also have to remember you have a bond time with
both PE and VE resins. If you get on it before the
bond time is up you save yourself the hassle if
grinding or sanding to get your bond. As for what is
the bond time allowed I don't know anymore we liked to
get all the major glassing done in less then 5 days on
the smaller hulls.
Oh when you are getting your resin tell them you want
a marine layup resin. It will have NO WAX in it and it
will be less likely to abbsorb water.
Bessings Krissie
--- Robb <Robb@...> wrote:
> How can one be sure that the polyester resin is
> non-waxed? Where do you get styrene? I thought
> you were supposed to use lacquer thinner for
> polyester resin.
> So to be accurate.....what you are saying is to
> prime the wood with the styrene/polyester resin
> mix......let it dry......then apply the glass with
> polyester resin.....is this correct. Does the boat
> need sanding before applying the glass? Robb
>
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rob I know some of the guys are going to scoff at what
I'm going to say but all resins like to bond to
something that has some tooth to it I like to give the
wood a pass with something like 24 grit on a da
sander. All you want to do is rough it up.
You should be able to get styrene and cobolt from your
glass supplyer. I know you can get it at
www.fiberglasssupply.com.
If you prime it late friday night and then start
glassing the next morning is OK. I like to let the
prime coat get tacky and then start glassing.
You also have to remember you have a bond time with
both PE and VE resins. If you get on it before the
bond time is up you save yourself the hassle if
grinding or sanding to get your bond. As for what is
the bond time allowed I don't know anymore we liked to
get all the major glassing done in less then 5 days on
the smaller hulls.
Oh when you are getting your resin tell them you want
a marine layup resin. It will have NO WAX in it and it
will be less likely to abbsorb water.
Bessings Krissie
--- Robb <Robb@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
I'm going to say but all resins like to bond to
something that has some tooth to it I like to give the
wood a pass with something like 24 grit on a da
sander. All you want to do is rough it up.
You should be able to get styrene and cobolt from your
glass supplyer. I know you can get it at
www.fiberglasssupply.com.
If you prime it late friday night and then start
glassing the next morning is OK. I like to let the
prime coat get tacky and then start glassing.
You also have to remember you have a bond time with
both PE and VE resins. If you get on it before the
bond time is up you save yourself the hassle if
grinding or sanding to get your bond. As for what is
the bond time allowed I don't know anymore we liked to
get all the major glassing done in less then 5 days on
the smaller hulls.
Oh when you are getting your resin tell them you want
a marine layup resin. It will have NO WAX in it and it
will be less likely to abbsorb water.
Bessings Krissie
--- Robb <Robb@...> wrote:
> How can one be sure that the polyester resin is__________________________________________________
> non-waxed? Where do you get styrene? I thought
> you were supposed to use lacquer thinner for
> polyester resin.
> So to be accurate.....what you are saying is to
> prime the wood with the styrene/polyester resin
> mix......let it dry......then apply the glass with
> polyester resin.....is this correct. Does the boat
> need sanding before applying the glass? Robb
>
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Some thing else should be said as well. When useing
Polyester and Vinylester resin you are going to want
to use a mat of some kind under the cloth. I like to
use two layers of vail over the 1 oz. mat, the reason
is the vail is a continuous fiber where as mat is a
bunch of choped fibers. They say the water vaper
fallows along the glass fibers... So useing vail will
help control this seeing how you only have fiber ends
at your cuts.
Then put your cloth on and if you are going to put a
2nd layer of cloth put down a layer of vail between
them. The vail and mat help bond the cloth layers
together.
As a top layer I would use Nexis cloth, it is a
polyester base cloth that will also help tp seal the
water out of your hull. I have used Nexis with both
epoxy and polyester and it sands nicely and it you put
to layers of nexis on the outside you can sand a lot
before you have to worry about sanding to much!
Nexis does tend to stipple up when wet out and I have
found it to make a good none skid as well for a deck.
It's not as good as sand in the Gelcoat or paint but
it does work and it saves you a step.
Now if you are going to sand the nexis for a finsh all
you need to is take a paint scraper to it to knock the
high points off and then sand.
Oh and to get the resin to set spray a coat of PVA
(Poly Vinyl Accate) over the whole thing to seal the
air from it. PVA will wash off with water and a rag.
Blessings Krissie
--- mkriley48 <mkriley@...> wrote:
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Polyester and Vinylester resin you are going to want
to use a mat of some kind under the cloth. I like to
use two layers of vail over the 1 oz. mat, the reason
is the vail is a continuous fiber where as mat is a
bunch of choped fibers. They say the water vaper
fallows along the glass fibers... So useing vail will
help control this seeing how you only have fiber ends
at your cuts.
Then put your cloth on and if you are going to put a
2nd layer of cloth put down a layer of vail between
them. The vail and mat help bond the cloth layers
together.
As a top layer I would use Nexis cloth, it is a
polyester base cloth that will also help tp seal the
water out of your hull. I have used Nexis with both
epoxy and polyester and it sands nicely and it you put
to layers of nexis on the outside you can sand a lot
before you have to worry about sanding to much!
Nexis does tend to stipple up when wet out and I have
found it to make a good none skid as well for a deck.
It's not as good as sand in the Gelcoat or paint but
it does work and it saves you a step.
Now if you are going to sand the nexis for a finsh all
you need to is take a paint scraper to it to knock the
high points off and then sand.
Oh and to get the resin to set spray a coat of PVA
(Poly Vinyl Accate) over the whole thing to seal the
air from it. PVA will wash off with water and a rag.
Blessings Krissie
--- mkriley48 <mkriley@...> wrote:
> the methods used for ~50 years result in a__________________________________________________
> satisfactory bond that is
> good for an indefinite time. Priming with NON WAXED
> resin thinned~10%
> with styrene and applying enough cloth to a DRY non
> moving wood
> surface will work well. Where it does not work is
> when a wet old
> wood boat with planks that move, get a thin layup of
> the MAGIC
> ointment. Done as Krissy says, the bond will split
> the wood before it
> fails. I made a living in boat repair in Florida and
> dealt with this
> daily in a failure mode and I have never seen a
> problem when properly
> applied. I would be wary of substituting a known
> good mechanical and
> molecular bond with something unknown.
> thanks
> mike
>
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The resin can will say laminating for un-waxed and finishing for waxed.
If it doesn't look at the fine print. Waxed resin will say that it
requires sanding between coats (to remove the wax). Styrene is the
proper thinning agent but hard to find. The is why acetone or lacquer
thinner is often used but not nearly as effective. Styrene monomer is
hard to find locally as it is big contributor to VOCs. I found one
source at:http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/.But be prepared to pay for
HazMat shipping.
Mike is right on..
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
North East, MD.
“Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
book at www.captnpauley.com
home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
Robb wrote:
If it doesn't look at the fine print. Waxed resin will say that it
requires sanding between coats (to remove the wax). Styrene is the
proper thinning agent but hard to find. The is why acetone or lacquer
thinner is often used but not nearly as effective. Styrene monomer is
hard to find locally as it is big contributor to VOCs. I found one
source at:http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/.But be prepared to pay for
HazMat shipping.
Mike is right on..
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
North East, MD.
“Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
book at www.captnpauley.com
home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
Robb wrote:
>
> How can one be sure that the polyester resin is non-waxed? Where do
> you get styrene? I thought you were supposed to use lacquer thinner
> for polyester resin.
> So to be accurate.....what you are saying is to prime the wood with
> the styrene/polyester resin mix......let it dry......then apply the
> glass with polyester resin.....is this correct. Does the boat need
> sanding before applying the glass? Robb
>
> .
>
>
How can one be sure that the polyester resin is non-waxed? Where do you get styrene? I thought you were supposed to use lacquer thinner for polyester resin.
So to be accurate.....what you are saying is to prime the wood with the styrene/polyester resin mix......let it dry......then apply the glass with polyester resin.....is this correct. Does the boat need sanding before applying the glass? Robb
So to be accurate.....what you are saying is to prime the wood with the styrene/polyester resin mix......let it dry......then apply the glass with polyester resin.....is this correct. Does the boat need sanding before applying the glass? Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: mkriley48
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: polyurethane/fibreglass
the methods used for ~50 years result in a satisfactory bond that is
good for an indefinite time. Priming with NON WAXED resin thinned~10%
with styrene and applying enough cloth to a DRY non moving wood
surface will work well. Where it does not work is when a wet old
wood boat with planks that move, get a thin layup of the MAGIC
ointment. Done as Krissy says, the bond will split the wood before it
fails. I made a living in boat repair in Florida and dealt with this
daily in a failure mode and I have never seen a problem when properly
applied. I would be wary of substituting a known good mechanical and
molecular bond with something unknown.
thanks
mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <Robb@...> wrote:
>
> I'd really like to hear more about this..........if it works well it
could be a good alternative for people making a small knockaround
boat.....Robb
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: andyairey
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:37 PM
> Subject: [bolger] polyurethane/fibreglass
>
>
> On a recent visit to a fibreglass products supplier it was suggested
> that,rather than use expensive epoxy to coat the hull of a plywood
boat
> I'm rebuilding,I used polyester/fibreglass.My reply was that
> conventional fibreglass had a bad reputation for delaminating off
> plywood.His was to use a polyurethane sealer first - the sort used
for
> sealing stone or cement linings to garden ponds,good penetration and
> moisture catalysed - apply the glass mat to it while still tacky,and
> then proceed with the resin and gel coats as usual.Any comments much
> appreciated.
> cheers
> andy airey
> ps Am a bit reluctant to experiment on the Lysander but have been
> thinking of building a tortoise or brick and might try it on that
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the methods used for ~50 years result in a satisfactory bond that is
good for an indefinite time. Priming with NON WAXED resin thinned~10%
with styrene and applying enough cloth to a DRY non moving wood
surface will work well. Where it does not work is when a wet old
wood boat with planks that move, get a thin layup of the MAGIC
ointment. Done as Krissy says, the bond will split the wood before it
fails. I made a living in boat repair in Florida and dealt with this
daily in a failure mode and I have never seen a problem when properly
applied. I would be wary of substituting a known good mechanical and
molecular bond with something unknown.
thanks
mike
good for an indefinite time. Priming with NON WAXED resin thinned~10%
with styrene and applying enough cloth to a DRY non moving wood
surface will work well. Where it does not work is when a wet old
wood boat with planks that move, get a thin layup of the MAGIC
ointment. Done as Krissy says, the bond will split the wood before it
fails. I made a living in boat repair in Florida and dealt with this
daily in a failure mode and I have never seen a problem when properly
applied. I would be wary of substituting a known good mechanical and
molecular bond with something unknown.
thanks
mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <Robb@...> wrote:
>
> I'd really like to hear more about this..........if it works well it
could be a good alternative for people making a small knockaround
boat.....Robb
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: andyairey
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:37 PM
> Subject: [bolger] polyurethane/fibreglass
>
>
> On a recent visit to a fibreglass products supplier it was suggested
> that,rather than use expensive epoxy to coat the hull of a plywood
boat
> I'm rebuilding,I used polyester/fibreglass.My reply was that
> conventional fibreglass had a bad reputation for delaminating off
> plywood.His was to use a polyurethane sealer first - the sort used
for
> sealing stone or cement linings to garden ponds,good penetration and
> moisture catalysed - apply the glass mat to it while still tacky,and
> then proceed with the resin and gel coats as usual.Any comments much
> appreciated.
> cheers
> andy airey
> ps Am a bit reluctant to experiment on the Lysander but have been
> thinking of building a tortoise or brick and might try it on that
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I'd really like to hear more about this..........if it works well it could be a good alternative for people making a small knockaround boat.....Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: andyairey
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: [bolger] polyurethane/fibreglass
On a recent visit to a fibreglass products supplier it was suggested
that,rather than use expensive epoxy to coat the hull of a plywood boat
I'm rebuilding,I used polyester/fibreglass.My reply was that
conventional fibreglass had a bad reputation for delaminating off
plywood.His was to use a polyurethane sealer first - the sort used for
sealing stone or cement linings to garden ponds,good penetration and
moisture catalysed - apply the glass mat to it while still tacky,and
then proceed with the resin and gel coats as usual.Any comments much
appreciated.
cheers
andy airey
ps Am a bit reluctant to experiment on the Lysander but have been
thinking of building a tortoise or brick and might try it on that
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks Krissie
I take it you've heard the old shipyard joke about
working tolerances.Engineers work to the nearest
thou,platers work to the nearest quarter,carpenters
work to the nearest inch and shipwrights work to the
nearest ship.Will try some test panels
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
I take it you've heard the old shipyard joke about
working tolerances.Engineers work to the nearest
thou,platers work to the nearest quarter,carpenters
work to the nearest inch and shipwrights work to the
nearest ship.Will try some test panels
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Thanks Krissie
I take it you've heard the old shipyard joke about
working tolerances.Engineers work to the nearest
thou,platers work to the nearest quarter,carpenters
work to the nearest inch and shipwrights work to the
nearest ship.Will try some test panels
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
I take it you've heard the old shipyard joke about
working tolerances.Engineers work to the nearest
thou,platers work to the nearest quarter,carpenters
work to the nearest inch and shipwrights work to the
nearest ship.Will try some test panels
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
That is a new one on me! I have worked with polyester
and vinylester resins for a lot of years. But I have
never heard that.
The trick of priming with resin thined with styren
about 5 to 10% and then adding cobalt before adding
the catalyst was the norm for most wood. I've done a
few fishholds over the years... OK so I'm a
shipwright... Just don't tell anyone.
Yes most of the boats that I worked on were fiberglass
but outfitting the hulls is much the same as a wood
boat...
About the only thing I would do is test the idea on
some test panals that are well cured and have a tab so
you can see how well it holds or peels!
Blessings, Krissie
--- andyairey <andyairey@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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and vinylester resins for a lot of years. But I have
never heard that.
The trick of priming with resin thined with styren
about 5 to 10% and then adding cobalt before adding
the catalyst was the norm for most wood. I've done a
few fishholds over the years... OK so I'm a
shipwright... Just don't tell anyone.
Yes most of the boats that I worked on were fiberglass
but outfitting the hulls is much the same as a wood
boat...
About the only thing I would do is test the idea on
some test panals that are well cured and have a tab so
you can see how well it holds or peels!
Blessings, Krissie
--- andyairey <andyairey@...> wrote:
> On a recent visit to a fibreglass products supplier__________________________________________________
> it was suggested
> that,rather than use expensive epoxy to coat the
> hull of a plywood boat
> I'm rebuilding,I used polyester/fibreglass.My reply
> was that
> conventional fibreglass had a bad reputation for
> delaminating off
> plywood.His was to use a polyurethane sealer first -
> the sort used for
> sealing stone or cement linings to garden ponds,good
> penetration and
> moisture catalysed - apply the glass mat to it while
> still tacky,and
> then proceed with the resin and gel coats as
> usual.Any comments much
> appreciated.
> cheers
> andy airey
> ps Am a bit reluctant to experiment on the Lysander
> but have been
> thinking of building a tortoise or brick and might
> try it on that
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
On a recent visit to a fibreglass products supplier it was suggested
that,rather than use expensive epoxy to coat the hull of a plywood boat
I'm rebuilding,I used polyester/fibreglass.My reply was that
conventional fibreglass had a bad reputation for delaminating off
plywood.His was to use a polyurethane sealer first - the sort used for
sealing stone or cement linings to garden ponds,good penetration and
moisture catalysed - apply the glass mat to it while still tacky,and
then proceed with the resin and gel coats as usual.Any comments much
appreciated.
cheers
andy airey
ps Am a bit reluctant to experiment on the Lysander but have been
thinking of building a tortoise or brick and might try it on that
that,rather than use expensive epoxy to coat the hull of a plywood boat
I'm rebuilding,I used polyester/fibreglass.My reply was that
conventional fibreglass had a bad reputation for delaminating off
plywood.His was to use a polyurethane sealer first - the sort used for
sealing stone or cement linings to garden ponds,good penetration and
moisture catalysed - apply the glass mat to it while still tacky,and
then proceed with the resin and gel coats as usual.Any comments much
appreciated.
cheers
andy airey
ps Am a bit reluctant to experiment on the Lysander but have been
thinking of building a tortoise or brick and might try it on that