Re: Anti-freeze ( ethylene glycol )

Got to say I am with you here Ken when it comes to ply boats. I think
on traditional boats that soak up some water and dry out it would
help but only till it leached out. A couple other points let it dry
after applying and it actualy takes a lot to make a person sick or
kill them. When conpaired to other products to kill rot it is the
safest I know of that works.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:

>
> > I found a website that suggested using Anti-freeze/coolant
> > as a way to wipe out wood rot and prevent it from reoccuring.
> > I was wondering if any has ever pre-treated their plywood
> > before putting to boat together?
>
> I use pure Ethylene Glycol purchased at a pharmaceutical or a

chemical supply

> house. It does not contain any additives (like water pump

lubricant for

> example) which might be added to the anti-freeze.
>
> By the way, anti-freeze only works if it is made of Ethylene

Glycol. Do not

> use Propylene Glycol based anti-freeze because it won't kill the

fungal

> spores that cause wood rot.
>
>
> > 1.There might be a danger of anti-freeze saturated particles
> > in the air if I had to do later sanding on the wood
>
> There is no danger of this because EG will not separate from the

wood and get

> into the air again once you've treated the wood. You would die

from

> dust-clogged lungs long before you could possibly inhale enough

sanding dust

> to breathe in enough EG to bother you.
>
> The only risk of breathing in enough EG to make you sick or kill

you is if you

> fail to use a mask and if you also heat it (which vaporizes it) or

spray it

> (which atomizes it). Don't heat it or spray it and you'll be

fine. I apply

> mine with a brush or roller, it goes on fast and very little gets

into the

> air this way.
>
>
> > 2. Will this cause problems if I later wanted to apply a
> > thinned layer of epoxy to help seal the boat before I
> > started glassing the seams.
>
> No. According to the research done by West Systems years ago

(published

> online somewhere) if you treat your wood with a 50/50 mix of EG and

water it

> will enhance the epoxy's bond with the wood. Dave Carnell thinks

this is

> because the EG opens up the pores and lets the epoxy flow deeper

into the

> wood.
>
> By the way, you will be far better off NOT thinning your epoxy

because when

> the thinner evaporates the epoxy will end up with lots of

microscopic "worm

> holes" in it where the thinner used to be. These trails provide

easy

> pathways for water to get into the wood right through your epoxy.
>
> If you're all that concerned about how deeply the epoxy is going to

penetrate

> into the wood (and you shouldn't be) a better technique would be to

heat the

> wood and the epoxy, then apply the epoxy as both the wood and epoxy

are

> cooling. The cooling wood will suck the epoxy into the pores and

remain 100%

> solid, with none of the 'worm trails' created by thinner as it

evaporates.

>
> You can do a google search for Robb White to learn more about this

epoxy

> application techniques. His methods take it to the extreme, but

they make

> far more sense than thinning a 100% solids material like epoxy so

that it is

> no longer 100% solids, and then expecting it to repel water like it

would

> have if you had just left it alone as a 100% solids material in the

first

> place.
>
>
> > And finally -- if I do pre-treat the wood, should I do
> > both sides?
>
> Yes of course. Dave Carnell once told me that EG will penetrate

through the

> Phenol Formaldehyde glues used in marine plywood construction. By

treating

> both sides of the plywood you're doubling the effectiveness of this
> penetration.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>

> I found a website that suggested using Anti-freeze/coolant
> as a way to wipe out wood rot and prevent it from reoccuring.
> I was wondering if any has ever pre-treated their plywood
> before putting to boat together?

I use pure Ethylene Glycol purchased at a pharmaceutical or a chemical supply
house. It does not contain any additives (like water pump lubricant for
example) which might be added to the anti-freeze.

By the way, anti-freeze only works if it is made of Ethylene Glycol. Do not
use Propylene Glycol based anti-freeze because it won't kill the fungal
spores that cause wood rot.

> 1.There might be a danger of anti-freeze saturated particles
> in the air if I had to do later sanding on the wood

There is no danger of this because EG will not separate from the wood and get
into the air again once you've treated the wood. You would die from
dust-clogged lungs long before you could possibly inhale enough sanding dust
to breathe in enough EG to bother you.

The only risk of breathing in enough EG to make you sick or kill you is if you
fail to use a mask and if you also heat it (which vaporizes it) or spray it
(which atomizes it). Don't heat it or spray it and you'll be fine. I apply
mine with a brush or roller, it goes on fast and very little gets into the
air this way.

> 2. Will this cause problems if I later wanted to apply a
> thinned layer of epoxy to help seal the boat before I
> started glassing the seams.

No. According to the research done by West Systems years ago (published
online somewhere) if you treat your wood with a 50/50 mix of EG and water it
will enhance the epoxy's bond with the wood. Dave Carnell thinks this is
because the EG opens up the pores and lets the epoxy flow deeper into the
wood.

By the way, you will be far better off NOT thinning your epoxy because when
the thinner evaporates the epoxy will end up with lots of microscopic "worm
holes" in it where the thinner used to be. These trails provide easy
pathways for water to get into the wood right through your epoxy.

If you're all that concerned about how deeply the epoxy is going to penetrate
into the wood (and you shouldn't be) a better technique would be to heat the
wood and the epoxy, then apply the epoxy as both the wood and epoxy are
cooling. The cooling wood will suck the epoxy into the pores and remain 100%
solid, with none of the 'worm trails' created by thinner as it evaporates.

You can do a google search for Robb White to learn more about this epoxy
application techniques. His methods take it to the extreme, but they make
far more sense than thinning a 100% solids material like epoxy so that it is
no longer 100% solids, and then expecting it to repel water like it would
have if you had just left it alone as a 100% solids material in the first
place.

> And finally -- if I do pre-treat the wood, should I do
> both sides?

Yes of course. Dave Carnell once told me that EG will penetrate through the
Phenol Formaldehyde glues used in marine plywood construction. By treating
both sides of the plywood you're doubling the effectiveness of this
penetration.


Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com

That subject was pro and coned nigh unto death on another forum not too
long ago...consensus seemed to be that yeah, it may prevent rot, but that it's
really nasty stuff and not worth messin' with.. .. it has a sweetish taste that
makes it attractive to some animals..and if your dog licks it up it'll kill
him dead..
Tyson in Galveston


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scott, you may want to check the archives of this
group--this subject has been argued out at least
twice, with no real conclusion reached. The main
proponant of e. glycol is Dave Carnell, a chem.
engineer whose opinion I very much respect.
Antifreeze is, obviously, water-soluable, so it won't
do much for wood that will be exposed to water. It
will kill rot spores on contact. You might want to
check with Gougon Bros. about its compatability with
epoxy--as of 6 years ago they recommended against it.
Sam
--- csshelton70 <chris.scott.shelton@...> wrote:

> Guys ( and gals),
>
> I found a website that suggested using
> Anti-freeze/coolant as a way to
> wipe out wood rot and prevent it from reoccuring. I
> was wondering if
> any has ever pre-treated their plywood before
> putting to boat
> together? I was considering doing so after I had
> cut all the pieces
> out but before I started building, however I was
> concerned that :
>
> 1.There might be a danger of anti-freeze saturated
> particles in the
> air if I had to do later sanding on the wood
> 2. Will this cause problems if I later wanted to
> apply a thinned layer
> of epoxy to help seal the boat before I started
> glassing the seams.
>
>
> And finally -- if I do pre-treat the wood, should I
> do both sides?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Scott
>
>
>

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> I found a website that suggested using Anti-freeze/coolant as a way to
> wipe out wood rot and prevent it from reoccuring.

The prof who write the wood science column in WoodenBoat is not a big
fan of anti-freeze, IIRC. It might pay to do some research.

Guys ( and gals),

I found a website that suggested using Anti-freeze/coolant as a way to
wipe out wood rot and prevent it from reoccuring. I was wondering if
any has ever pre-treated their plywood before putting to boat
together? I was considering doing so after I had cut all the pieces
out but before I started building, however I was concerned that :

1.There might be a danger of anti-freeze saturated particles in the
air if I had to do later sanding on the wood
2. Will this cause problems if I later wanted to apply a thinned layer
of epoxy to help seal the boat before I started glassing the seams.


And finally -- if I do pre-treat the wood, should I do both sides?


Thanks in advance,
Scott