Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger Topaz Repair

> Perhaps the fillet pieces on TOPAZ are not true expansions,per se, and
> are thus subject to some oil-canning. Also, I believe TOPAZ has a
> higher cruising speed then WINDERMEREs' stately 7 knots. Bruce
> Hallmans' TOPAZ SPYDER will be a rocket on the water :-)

I think the Topaz fillets are 98% true expansions, with a little bit
of torturing. I am 100% confident that these fillets can handle every
sort of water pressure. I glassed them solidly and filled the void
with foam, and no doubt you could beat on them with a hammer. Hull
impact onto a rock would probably do damage, but they are simply
fairing pieces, and the watertight hull is the 1 inch thick bottom
plate up higher.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...> wrote:

>
> I hesitate to comment because of my inexperience, but it seems to me
> the rest of the Topaz bottom is about 1" thick plywood, and the

fillet

> is much thinner. Could it not just be to thin to take the beating

> must from the water? This seems especially likely since this thin
> part of the hull is on the "cutwater", which would seem to take the
> first blows of chop.
>
> Don

That is a fair observation Don. From what I know of Windermeres( as
yet un-launched) fillet pieces,they do not hit the water square on but
rather at a sharp angle.Nevertheless, I did beef up my fillet pieces
to 3 eights of an inch instead of the quarter inch called for on the
plans.Also,being developed shapes, the plywood really really stiffens
up alot once installed. A layer or two of some nice 10 oz. fiberglass
cloth and they give the impression of being nearly bullet proof....not
trailer proof mind you, just bullet proof :-)
With expanded foam installed in the cavity they get hard.
Furthermore,to get the plywood to bend to the developed shape, the
designer(s) chose to keep it thin.However, it is not beyond the realm
of the possible to cold mold multiple layers right up to the same
bottom thickness of the hull bottom.The only problem with that would
be fairing the added thickness of the fillet pieces to the hull
sides.Clearly an opproach best considered early in the game so that
the builder can make the necessary adjustments..........

Perhaps the fillet pieces on TOPAZ are not true expansions,per se, and
are thus subject to some oil-canning. Also, I believe TOPAZ has a
higher cruising speed then WINDERMEREs' stately 7 knots. Bruce
Hallmans' TOPAZ SPYDER will be a rocket on the water :-)

It will be interesting what others think about this too.

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan

I hesitate to comment because of my inexperience, but it seems to me
the rest of the Topaz bottom is about 1" thick plywood, and the fillet
is much thinner. Could it not just be to thin to take the beating it
must from the water? This seems especially likely since this thin
part of the hull is on the "cutwater", which would seem to take the
first blows of chop.

Don

Jon I have a large boat project already. I picked up a
40 foot Cruse-a-Home about 10 years ago and stripped
it down to just the hull. Every thing above the guards
was junk. I had some drawing of what I wanted to do
with her.

Then my Ex and I split so boat was put on hold. Seeing
how my boating needs had changed. Then met Mouse and
we hit it off and we talked about what was needed on
the boat. I was even thinking about getting back into
fishing in Alaska and set the boat up for that.

Well Mouse got hurt 2 1/2 years ago and also out of
work the same amount of time. Dealing with the state
is so much fun! So working on the big boat has been
put on hold again.

So it's back to what do I need on the Crusie for us to
enjoy it, be it for a weekend or for the summer or
even full time?

We have called a 32 foot 5th wheel home for the last 5
years so getting along on a boat should be a brease! A
40 foot boat will have more room then the 5th wheel.

I keep drawing up floor plans when I get a good idea.
But it comes down to what do we need to enjoy being
out on the water? The answer comes down to just a
handfull things. A boat that doesn't leak seawater or
rain. A dry place to snuggle up in and sleep. A place
to cook and eat. We must not forget the head and maybe
a shower.

I guess I should also add some deck space to put our
rocking chairs! After all we are getting older. OK so
we are a couple of crones, big deal, we still are
laugh and cry with each other. Funny how just walking
on the beach hand in hand can mean so much to a loving
couple.

So the more I think about it the more I see setting
the boat up more like a work boat may be in order.
That way we will have a mast and boom to handle the
tender and anything else we need to put on deck.

But that will have to wait till we have two incomes
again.

Maybe I'll have it done by the time I see 55 or maybe
60.

Blessings all Krissie

--- "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:

> The great thing is with people living longer they
> have more years to
> enjoy working with there hands. 50 is a good time to
> start that big
> boat that will take years to build.
> The coots here in Or and Wa are a bread all there
> owen finding time
> to travel 100 miles just to help another turna hull
> or fix up a shop.
> Here is what I started at 50 a year and a half ago.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/
>
> Jon
>

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The great thing is with people living longer they have more years to
enjoy working with there hands. 50 is a good time to start that big
boat that will take years to build.
The coots here in Or and Wa are a bread all there owen finding time
to travel 100 miles just to help another turna hull or fix up a shop.
Here is what I started at 50 a year and a half ago.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Well in just a few weeks I will see the big 50 and
> over the years I have found that people that build and
> restore Boats and Airplanes to be a birds of a
> feather.
>
> I think it has to do with building something with your
> own hands and the pride in a job well done. We all
> offer help to the new people to our hobby! We like to
> shair our fun of building with others. Or our ideas
> for that matter.
>
> Here in the next few months there are going to be a
> number of Fly-in and Messabouts. If you go to eather
> one you will find craftsman in both places and I know
> most of them would enjoy seeing a boat and or an
> airplaine that was build with pride!
>
> I marvile at a skiff that has the brightwork that is
> as good or better then what you see on a larger boat!
> I also marvile at seeing some of the plans built
> aircraft that are show stoppers.
>
> They say "How you do anything is how you do every
> thing" and I feel it is true! Just look at some of the
> boats that have been home built!
>
> I hope I can do as good of job as some of of you all
> do!
>
> Bright Blessings
> Krissie
>
> --- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi"
> > <ravenous@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know why, but
> > > Boatbuilding people are the most solid,
> > intelligent, and generous
> > > group of people I have ever associated with.
> > Anyone else notice that?
> > > Go to any messabout, you couldn't find a higher
> > concentration of good
> > > people anywhere else.
> > >
> >
> > I totally agree with the last adjective. Not so
> > certain about the
> > first two;-)
> >
> > Nels
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
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>

Well in just a few weeks I will see the big 50 and
over the years I have found that people that build and
restore Boats and Airplanes to be a birds of a
feather.

I think it has to do with building something with your
own hands and the pride in a job well done. We all
offer help to the new people to our hobby! We like to
shair our fun of building with others. Or our ideas
for that matter.

Here in the next few months there are going to be a
number of Fly-in and Messabouts. If you go to eather
one you will find craftsman in both places and I know
most of them would enjoy seeing a boat and or an
airplaine that was build with pride!

I marvile at a skiff that has the brightwork that is
as good or better then what you see on a larger boat!
I also marvile at seeing some of the plans built
aircraft that are show stoppers.

They say "How you do anything is how you do every
thing" and I feel it is true! Just look at some of the
boats that have been home built!

I hope I can do as good of job as some of of you all
do!

Bright Blessings
Krissie

--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi"
> <ravenous@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know why, but
> > Boatbuilding people are the most solid,
> intelligent, and generous
> > group of people I have ever associated with.
> Anyone else notice that?
> > Go to any messabout, you couldn't find a higher
> concentration of good
> > people anywhere else.
> >
>
> I totally agree with the last adjective. Not so
> certain about the
> first two;-)
>
> Nels
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:

>
> Peter, you are right--it would sure break if it took a
> blow just off the web, or if it balanced on a trailer
> bunk there.

Peter, Bruce, Sam, Paul,
You guys are really great to help me mull this over. And I think you
really hit the mark.
The first incident, which occurred last year, was definitely an impact
event. I hit a submerged log at 8-9 mph in the Altamaha river. The
boat actually went up and over causing much tossing about and panic to
the crew (and me too of course). By the time I regained my balance
and said "what the . . . " it was over.
I looked the bottom over briefly, after returning home, but missed the
crack. After several trips later, I was checking underneath for some
reason and saw drips of water and the telltale crack.
To repair it the first time I drilled out two quarter inch holes at
what looked like the ends of the crack. After draining and drying, I
sanded the area down and epoxied fiberglass tape strips across the
area of the crack visible from the underside and filled the holes. I
doubled them and then sanded the edges to get a quick fairing before
painting and priming.
So after reading your helpful posts, and having seen the now extended
cracking starting a few inches in my original repair and continuing
another 10 inches or so . . . I am thinking that the original incident
, an extreme impact just ahead or aft of the frame is the cause. My
original repair must have been inadequate. And the existing damage in
the ply (After cutting out the oval, I can see a lot more cracking and
separation of plys, than was visible on the bottom surface) worsened
with hard use--choppy waters, trailering, etc..
This puts my mind at ease, because it eliminates the worry I had that
the frame was responsible for the continued cracking.
I still plan to widen the frame with more wood and use larger oval
above the cut-out piece as a sort of inner butt joint --diagrammed in
the photos I uploaded.
I tend to think sidewise, jump to wrong conclusions, and miss the
obvious, so I really, really appreciate the feedback.
Thanks,
Rhett
Hey, Peter, when do we get to see newer photos of the Windemere?

Peter, you are right--it would sure break if it took a
blow just off the web, or if it balanced on a trailer
bunk there. A high spot in the web frame is
impossible, given the unsurpassed skill and
craftmanship of the builder. You should see my
birdhouses! Sam
--- Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:

> Hi Sam,
>
> Thanks for the details.This is sounding more and
> more like it must
> have been either a trailer or drift wood
> encounter-of-the-too-close-
> kind. Seeing that the damage has occured in a
> non-tortured part of
> the plywood,that it is enclosed around its perimeter
> and has a frame
> backing it(I'm presuming it was not too high,as
> suggested by Bruce
> Hallman,otherwise it would have shown up as a unfair
> high spot during
> construction,glassing,priming or painting.)then I
> have a difficult
> time imagining it flexing much and,in fact, see the
> frame helping to
> resist and stabilize the panel in that area during a
> high speed
> choppy run.
> Moreover, the area in question appears to be on
> the opposite side
> of the helm station thus making for dicey steering
> of the boat up
> onto the trailer,maybe? or a slight miscalculation
> of clearances of
> trailer/floating debris? The lack of symetry(did not
> happen on other
> panel) has me thinking along those lines.....I
> wonder if there is any
> evidence on the outside of an impact or paint
> transfer from the
> trailer etc...?
> Here's to hoping everything works out well for
> Rhetts repair and
> that the cause be soon discovered :-)
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>

______________________________________________________________________

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> >
>
>
>

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I have a strip-planked mahogany boat (which is a
platform for my Elegant Punt and, soon, June
Bug--hence the Bolger content). It was glued forty
years ago, and much glue has failed. I wooded the
bottom and put interlux seam compound in all the seams
wide enough to take it, then put on two coats of
bottom paint. There are still many hairline cracks
which I know from experience will leak, then swell
tight. Problem is, I don't have reliable electricity
at my slip so I want to slow the leak pending her
swelling tight. To that end, I used wet/dry roof
cement in any crack wide enough to crack the paint.
Because my seams are only 1 1/4" apart, there are
large areas of the hull that have a thin layer of tar
over them where it spread out during cleanup with a
broad knife. My question--do I need to put bottom
paint over these areas, which alredy have two fresh
coats under them? I don't know if this stuff will
wear off faster than growth can set on it, or if I
need to paint. Any ideas would be helpful. Thanks. Sam

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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...>
wrote:

> Peter, most of the Topaz nose is indeed very stiff,
> but where Rhett's failed is toward the aft end of the
> nose where the ply is not tortured and where flexing
> would occur at planning speeds, so stress over that
> particular web is not impossible, I think.
>

Hi Sam,

Thanks for the details.This is sounding more and more like it must
have been either a trailer or drift wood encounter-of-the-too-close-
kind. Seeing that the damage has occured in a non-tortured part of
the plywood,that it is enclosed around its perimeter and has a frame
backing it(I'm presuming it was not too high,as suggested by Bruce
Hallman,otherwise it would have shown up as a unfair high spot during
construction,glassing,priming or painting.)then I have a difficult
time imagining it flexing much and,in fact, see the frame helping to
resist and stabilize the panel in that area during a high speed
choppy run.
Moreover, the area in question appears to be on the opposite side
of the helm station thus making for dicey steering of the boat up
onto the trailer,maybe? or a slight miscalculation of clearances of
trailer/floating debris? The lack of symetry(did not happen on other
panel) has me thinking along those lines.....I wonder if there is any
evidence on the outside of an impact or paint transfer from the
trailer etc...?
Here's to hoping everything works out well for Rhetts repair and
that the cause be soon discovered :-)

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan

______________________________________________________________________
______________

> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
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>

> but where Rhett's failed is toward the aft end of the
> nose

FWIW, that location the boat is a 'high risk zone' for collision with
a floating object,or the bottom.

--- Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:

> I don't recall exactly how the TOPAZ fillet piece is
> installed
> but,if it is anything like the one called for on
> WINDERMERE, the
> shape is developed and the plywood is somewhat
> tortured in
> place.Thus, it becomes rather stiff once installed
> and even more so
> once glassed in place.

Peter, most of the Topaz nose is indeed very stiff,
but where Rhett's failed is toward the aft end of the
nose where the ply is not tortured and where flexing
would occur at planning speeds, so stress over that
particular web is not impossible, I think.

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> However, I'm surprised Peter didn't mention the
> possibility of internal air pressure causing
> this problem. (If I recall correctly, there has been
> an article in MAIB a few years back
> describing the incident encoutered by a Topaz owner
> during a visit to Florida who
> discovered that both fillet areas were full of
> water...)

This particular boat has ventilation through a pigtail
of copper tubing epoxied through the sole and carried
up well above the water line, so the unfortunate
events described in that article cannot have been the
cause. Sam

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> I don't recall exactly how the TOPAZ fillet piece is installed
> but,if it is anything like the one called for on WINDERMERE, the
> shape is developed and the plywood is somewhat tortured in
> place.

Yes, essentially it is a twisted piece of plywood.

> Thus, it becomes rather stiff once installed and even more so
> once glassed in place. The presence of a frame should not be the
> source of the problem unless you have some serious flexing or worse
> going on.

Another potential reason is that the lateral frame was 'high' during
installation. I recall that I needed to custom fit the shape of mine,
per the exact dimensions on the plans, some were a little low and some
a little high. A high one might localize the stress.

Worth repeating, I agree that an entirely sealed chamber needs some
pressure release to accommodate changes in barometric pressure. Even
one filled with foam. Foam which is mostly air continues to expand and
contract. In my case, I drilled two very small holes through the 1"
hull bottom panel into the fillet chambers (from inside the forward
cuddy high up above the waterline).

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:

>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@> wrote:
> >
> > My Topaz has a hollow hull extension forward which pleasantly cuts
> > down on pounding in choppy waters. Not too long ago, I noticed a
> > crack in the 1/4 inch ply of this hull and discovered that the
> hollow
> > area had filled with water.
> > I drilled holes, drained and dried this area out with a shop vac.
> I then
> > applied a patch to the cracked area, using two layers of 6 ox tape
> > perpendicular to the crack.
> > Now after a weekend of use, I notice that the crack has reopened
> and
> > lengthened and again the hollow area is full of water.
> > I removed an oval cutout which contains the cracked area, and I
> > discovered a frame in that location which seems to be creating a
> hard
> > spot/pressure point and contributing to the continued cracking.
> > My original plan was to back the oval cutout with a larger oval
> cutout
> > of 1/4 ply giving at least 2 1/2 inches of overlap. Epoxy well
> > (perhaps screw in place if needed to match the curve. Then I would
> use
> > more cloth/tape on the outside, sand and fair.
> > But the discovering the frame as the possible cause of the crack
> puts
> > me on uncertain ground. I don't know the best way to make the
> repair.
> > I have posted a series of photos of the crack and frame in Bolger5
> > Photos in an album called ATopazFix. Any help would be
> appreciated.
> > Except for one patch in a little flatbottom boat, I have never
> done a
> > cutout repair--certainly not with a frame involved. Please help me
> > get a bolger boat back on the water!
> >
>
> I don't recall exactly how the TOPAZ fillet piece is installed
> but,if it is anything like the one called for on WINDERMERE, the
> shape is developed and the plywood is somewhat tortured in
> place.Thus, it becomes rather stiff once installed and even more so
> once glassed in place. The presence of a frame should not be the
> source of the problem unless you have some serious flexing or worse
> going on. Hard to tell from here, but I would dearly look into
> finding out how this is happening and perhaps even elliminating the
> frame all together(provided it is indeed a developed shape like on
> WINDERMERE which has no frames). On the other hand, it may be a
> chronic disagreement with the trailer when either launching or
> retrieving the boat.....maybe? :-).....last guess would be a defect
> in the ply laminate which happens sometimes.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Peter Lenihan, owner and still builder of a WINDERMERE being fitted
> out to standards I can hardly achieve :-)...............

As Peter says, it's difficult to guess what's happening without knowing all the
circumstances surrounding those 2 incidents.

However, I'm surprised Peter didn't mention the possibility of internal air pressure causing
this problem. (If I recall correctly, there has been an article in MAIB a few years back
describing the incident encoutered by a Topaz owner during a visit to Florida who
discovered that both fillet areas were full of water...)

I'm presently building Champlain and to counteract any problem with the fillets installed,
I've used 3/8 plywood and filled all the area with "poor-in urethane", which reinforce the
structure, make it imprevious to any sudden water infiltration, and more importantly I
think, eliminate the possibility of any internal pressure difference. The objective being that
there should be NO closed area in a boat without proprer ventilation. Since this cannot be
achieved in the fillet areas, the only solution is to fill them up completely with urethane or
any other suitable material.

Otherwise, I would be afraid that any repair would only postpone an other similar incident
at the same place, or worst, just besides it!

Good Luck in your repair.

Paul Simard, just hoping that Peter will finish Windermere so he could help finishing
mine.........(sic)

>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@...> wrote:

>
> My Topaz has a hollow hull extension forward which pleasantly cuts
> down on pounding in choppy waters. Not too long ago, I noticed a
> crack in the 1/4 inch ply of this hull and discovered that the

hollow

> area had filled with water.
> I drilled holes, drained and dried this area out with a shop vac.

I then

> applied a patch to the cracked area, using two layers of 6 ox tape
> perpendicular to the crack.
> Now after a weekend of use, I notice that the crack has reopened

and

> lengthened and again the hollow area is full of water.
> I removed an oval cutout which contains the cracked area, and I
> discovered a frame in that location which seems to be creating a

hard

> spot/pressure point and contributing to the continued cracking.
> My original plan was to back the oval cutout with a larger oval

cutout

> of 1/4 ply giving at least 2 1/2 inches of overlap. Epoxy well
> (perhaps screw in place if needed to match the curve. Then I would

use

> more cloth/tape on the outside, sand and fair.
> But the discovering the frame as the possible cause of the crack

puts

> me on uncertain ground. I don't know the best way to make the

repair.

> I have posted a series of photos of the crack and frame in Bolger5
> Photos in an album called ATopazFix. Any help would be

appreciated.

> Except for one patch in a little flatbottom boat, I have never

done a

> cutout repair--certainly not with a frame involved. Please help me
> get a bolger boat back on the water!
>

I don't recall exactly how the TOPAZ fillet piece is installed
but,if it is anything like the one called for on WINDERMERE, the
shape is developed and the plywood is somewhat tortured in
place.Thus, it becomes rather stiff once installed and even more so
once glassed in place. The presence of a frame should not be the
source of the problem unless you have some serious flexing or worse
going on. Hard to tell from here, but I would dearly look into
finding out how this is happening and perhaps even elliminating the
frame all together(provided it is indeed a developed shape like on
WINDERMERE which has no frames). On the other hand, it may be a
chronic disagreement with the trailer when either launching or
retrieving the boat.....maybe? :-).....last guess would be a defect
in the ply laminate which happens sometimes.

Good luck!

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan, owner and still builder of a WINDERMERE being fitted
out to standards I can hardly achieve :-)...............

Bruce,
I see you recommend a conventional sanding pad for the angle grinder. This winter a couple of us were repairing the deck on a larger boat and found the flapped sandpaper disk to work great and to last longer than I ever believed. it held up against paint, fiberglass and wood. Following is an example of one I just googled. It seems that as it wears down it exposes fresh abrasive. They just can't be killed! Or so it seemed. The shape of these disks could make it more difficult to get a flat surface but the normal ones ain't that easy either.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=5310056&PMT4NO=23714221

Sincerely,Gene T.
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "

----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2007 3:43:57 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger Topaz Repair

> If I do, I will have to grind down the frame a little to allow for the

> extra 1/4 thickness as Gab suggested.

I would go with a full scarf, perhaps griding back a taper of 2 inches

or three inches all around.

Gluing in some cedar sleepers inside seems also to be a good idea, per

Sam's suggestion,.

If you don't have a 4 1/2" angle grinder with a sanding pad disk, you

*must* get one. In my opinion it is an essential tool (with 36 grit

paper) for this scarf job. Scab the patch on the outside with two or

three layers of strips of 1/8" plywood extending up 1/8" or so higher

than the desired finish surface height. I would glue these patch

layers together with epoxy, tacked temporarily in place with a narrow

crown air stapler if you have one. Then sculpt and fair the surface

to the right curvature by grinding with the sanding disk. Followed by

a sheathing of fiberglass and epoxy, smoothing, prime and paint.

Here is a picture of the sanding pad:

http://www.amazoncom/dp/B000AO6SR A/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Its the working with hands thing, there is some sort of interface
between creating with hands and the mind that produces good people. You
get the the same kind of people with the home built aircraft group. Or
maybe it is sniffing epoxy?

HJ

Nels wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know why, but
>
>> Boatbuilding people are the most solid, intelligent, and generous
>> group of people I have ever associated with. Anyone else notice that?
>> Go to any messabout, you couldn't find a higher concentration of good
>> people anywhere else.
>>
>>
>
> I totally agree with the last adjective. Not so certain about the
> first two;-)
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>

Rhett, I think with the sistered frame and the double
ply she will certainly break somewhere else first. I
think your instinct was right--from the picture, it
looks like the web frame is like a knife-edge against
that thin plywood. A bungee never hurts, of course.
I am also leary of foam, and I was please to see that
the area inside the nose seemed rot-free. I meant to
stick a note in the nose saying something like "What
in the heck are you doing in here?" Now I wish I had.
--- ravenouspi <ravenous@...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock
> <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ouch! have you tried bungee cord?
> Hey Sam (wonderful creator of my favorite boat
> ever)!
> I like your idea of sistering the frame to widen it
> and spread the load.
> I think maybe that along with the additional
> thickness of ply above
> the patch will do the trick.
> I'm not sure about the foam, I just don't like foam
> filled cavities,
> as they are always so difficult to drain and dry
> out, if they ever do
> get water filled.
> What do think? Will the extra ply and the sistered
> frame do it?
> Or do I need to throw a bungee cord in for good
> measure!
> Good to hear from you.
> Rhett
>
>

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> If I do, I will have to grind down the frame a little to allow for the
> extra 1/4 thickness as Gab suggested.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:

>
> Ouch! have you tried bungee cord?

Hey Sam (wonderful creator of my favorite boat ever)!
I like your idea of sistering the frame to widen it and spread the load.
I think maybe that along with the additional thickness of ply above
the patch will do the trick.
I'm not sure about the foam, I just don't like foam filled cavities,
as they are always so difficult to drain and dry out, if they ever do
get water filled.
What do think? Will the extra ply and the sistered frame do it?
Or do I need to throw a bungee cord in for good measure!
Good to hear from you.
Rhett

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@...> wrote:

I don't know why, but
> Boatbuilding people are the most solid, intelligent, and generous
> group of people I have ever associated with. Anyone else notice that?
> Go to any messabout, you couldn't find a higher concentration of good
> people anywhere else.
>

I totally agree with the last adjective. Not so certain about the
first two;-)

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:

>
> I wouldn't worry too much about this. That cutwater chamber is outside
> the water envelope of the hull. Indeed, part of its purpose is as a
> sacrificial crash cushion. For this reason, the longitudinal web is
> designed with holes, (holes which I see are missing from your boat).

Thanks, Bruce.
Sam Glasscock did an excellent job of encapsulating the ply, therefore
except for the area around the crack itself the wood is still very
dry. Once I cut the area out, I was pleased to see the chamber was
dry and well coated with epoxy. So I am not fretting over the rot so much.
The longitudinal keel web does indeed have holes, the angle of my
photo hides them.
I want to make this the LAST repair, of this area, and I am worried
about the frame applying enough pressure to crack the wood again.
I am hoping that adding a second wider layer of 1/4 ply above the
original, will spread the load better, but am not experienced enough
to be sure.
If I do, I will have to grind down the frame a little to allow for the
extra 1/4 thickness as Gab suggested.
I do take the boat out in choppy rough water regularly.
Does this sound like a reasonable plan to you?
Does this sound like a bad plan to anyone?
As always I thank you guys for responding. I don't know why, but
Boatbuilding people are the most solid, intelligent, and generous
group of people I have ever associated with. Anyone else notice that?
Go to any messabout, you couldn't find a higher concentration of good
people anywhere else.

Ouch! have you tried bungee cord?
Rhett, from the look of the skin you took out the very
thin ply is flexing over the half-inch web frame,
causing the break. I suspect I would sister in some
3/4" X 1" cedar or other softwood planks on either
side of the frame to spread the load out over two
inches, instead of 1/2". The other suggested fix,
foam, would also help. PB suggested the nose be
foam-filled, but only after I finished her. Sam
--- ravenouspi <ravenous@...> wrote:

> My Topaz has a hollow hull extension forward which
> pleasantly cuts
> down on pounding in choppy waters. Not too long
> ago, I noticed a
> crack in the 1/4 inch ply of this hull and
> discovered that the hollow
> area had filled with water.
> I drilled holes, drained and dried this area out
> with a shop vac. I then
> applied a patch to the cracked area, using two
> layers of 6 ox tape
> perpendicular to the crack.
> Now after a weekend of use, I notice that the crack
> has reopened and
> lengthened and again the hollow area is full of
> water.
> I removed an oval cutout which contains the cracked
> area, and I
> discovered a frame in that location which seems to
> be creating a hard
> spot/pressure point and contributing to the
> continued cracking.
> My original plan was to back the oval cutout with a
> larger oval cutout
> of 1/4 ply giving at least 2 1/2 inches of overlap.
> Epoxy well
> (perhaps screw in place if needed to match the
> curve. Then I would use
> more cloth/tape on the outside, sand and fair.
> But the discovering the frame as the possible cause
> of the crack puts
> me on uncertain ground. I don't know the best way
> to make the repair.
> I have posted a series of photos of the crack and
> frame in Bolger5
> Photos in an album called ATopazFix. Any help would
> be appreciated.
> Except for one patch in a little flatbottom boat, I
> have never done a
> cutout repair--certainly not with a frame involved.
> Please help me
> get a bolger boat back on the water!
>
>

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P.S., you might find the fairing job easier if you were to lay on the
patch using a cold molding technique of two layers of 1/8" plywood.
Just last night I did the cold molding for the afterdeck on my Topaz
Spyder which has a compound curvature, the cold molding process may
seem hard, but in reality can be quite easy and flexible.

I wouldn't worry too much about this. That cutwater chamber is outside
the water envelope of the hull. Indeed, part of its purpose is as a
sacrificial crash cushion. For this reason, the longitudinal web is
designed with holes, (holes which I see are missing from your boat).
In my Topaz, (suspecting a risk of a flooding problem), I filled my
cutwater chambers with old empty sealed plastic soft drink bottles
(pourable expanding foam is expensive!) , then I poured expanding foam
into the chambers through a series of ten holes drilled through the 1"
plywood bottom. Pouring foam through 1" holes is daunting, until I
discovered how to make a paper funnel taped to a piece of 3/4" steel
conduit acting as a nozzle. Also, I installed two 1/8" air vents
through the 1" bottom to allow for pressure equalization due to
barometric pressure fluctuation upon the sealed chamber.

On 6/5/07, ravenouspi <ravenous@...> wrote:
>
> My Topaz has a hollow hull extension forward which pleasantly cuts
> down on pounding in choppy waters. Not too long ago, I noticed a
> crack in the 1/4 inch ply of this hull and discovered that the hollow
> area had filled with water.

revenouspi: I think I'd be very hesitant to by chopping on the
frame... could you use a grinder to reduce the pressure point, and then
maybe fill the hollow area with 2-part expanding foam. To hedge my bets
against further cracking/flexing, I'd maybe consider a 8lb or 16lb foam
(seehttp://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.htmlfor one source). I've used the
16lb foam before for another application, and that stuff is just about
as rigid as concrete, while weighing only about 25% of what water does
and thus being moderately decent flotation as well as a nice structural
support.

--Gabe

ravenouspi wrote:

>
> My Topaz has a hollow hull extension forward which pleasantly cuts
> down on pounding in choppy waters. Not too long ago, I noticed a
> crack in the 1/4 inch ply of this hull and discovered that the hollow
> area had filled with water.
> I drilled holes, drained and dried this area out with a shop vac. I then
> applied a patch to the cracked area, using two layers of 6 ox tape
> perpendicular to the crack.
> Now after a weekend of use, I notice that the crack has reopened and
> lengthened and again the hollow area is full of water.
> I removed an oval cutout which contains the cracked area, and I
> discovered a frame in that location which seems to be creating a hard
> spot/pressure point and contributing to the continued cracking.
> My original plan was to back the oval cutout with a larger oval cutout
> of 1/4 ply giving at least 2 1/2 inches of overlap. Epoxy well
> (perhaps screw in place if needed to match the curve. Then I would use
> more cloth/tape on the outside, sand and fair.
> But the discovering the frame as the possible cause of the crack puts
> me on uncertain ground. I don't know the best way to make the repair.
> I have posted a series of photos of the crack and frame in Bolger5
> Photos in an album called ATopazFix. Any help would be appreciated.
> Except for one patch in a little flatbottom boat, I have never done a
> cutout repair--certainly not with a frame involved. Please help me
> get a bolger boat back on the water!
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Topaz has a hollow hull extension forward which pleasantly cuts
down on pounding in choppy waters. Not too long ago, I noticed a
crack in the 1/4 inch ply of this hull and discovered that the hollow
area had filled with water.
I drilled holes, drained and dried this area out with a shop vac. I then
applied a patch to the cracked area, using two layers of 6 ox tape
perpendicular to the crack.
Now after a weekend of use, I notice that the crack has reopened and
lengthened and again the hollow area is full of water.
I removed an oval cutout which contains the cracked area, and I
discovered a frame in that location which seems to be creating a hard
spot/pressure point and contributing to the continued cracking.
My original plan was to back the oval cutout with a larger oval cutout
of 1/4 ply giving at least 2 1/2 inches of overlap. Epoxy well
(perhaps screw in place if needed to match the curve. Then I would use
more cloth/tape on the outside, sand and fair.
But the discovering the frame as the possible cause of the crack puts
me on uncertain ground. I don't know the best way to make the repair.
I have posted a series of photos of the crack and frame in Bolger5
Photos in an album called ATopazFix. Any help would be appreciated.
Except for one patch in a little flatbottom boat, I have never done a
cutout repair--certainly not with a frame involved. Please help me
get a bolger boat back on the water!