RE: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan

Tim I like the Watervan and the smaller Fiddler II.
The only draw back to me is no aft deck space.

I showed a friend the WaterVan and he said it would
make a great water based pickup truck. I gave him the
info to get in touch with PBAF

Blessings Krissie

--- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

> Thanks, I've done some tests on polyurethane and
> titebond 3 and they both
> seem to work well. I'm stretching Watervan by 4 feet
> to fit the max of my
> trailer and to accommodate my computer video editing
> work station and
> microscope... and to give a little more room for
> wife #5 when I locate her.
> TA
>

==

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Thanks, I've done some tests on polyurethane and titebond 3 and they both
seem to work well. I'm stretching Watervan by 4 feet to fit the max of my
trailer and to accommodate my computer video editing work station and
microscope... and to give a little more room for wife #5 when I locate her.
TA

-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Gene T
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:12 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan

Tim,
Ok, I'm way late, way behind in reading but.. PU glue would be good for
this situation. Large area, small stress. Although it ain't cheep. Make
sure it doesn't melt the foam. How would Titebond 2 or 3 work with foam.
Good I think. But not as quick. And, yeah I'd like a Watervan, in a big
way. Its just to far down on my list...

Sincerely, Gene T.

"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "

----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 4:36:40 PM
Subject: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan

Im setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods
is to build

the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using PL of

Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think of

the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a Watervan?

Tim P Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Tim,
Ok, I'm way late, way behind in reading but.. PU glue would be good for this situation. Large area, small stress. Although it ain't cheep. Make sure it doesn't melt the foam. How would Titebond 2 or 3 work with foam. Good I think. But not as quick. And, yeah I'd like a Watervan, in a big way. Its just to far down on my list...

Sincerely, Gene T.

"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "

----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 4:36:40 PM
Subject: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan

I�m setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is to build

the deck as a foam-cored Joubert � ply sandwich and will be using PL of

Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think of

the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a Watervan?

Tim P Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...>
wrote:

>
> I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is

to build

> the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using

PL of

> Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this

group think of

> the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a

Watervan?

Hello Tim,

I have neither built a Watervan nor used PU glues.However,on
board Windermere,which is insulated with 2"blue Styrofoam on both
hull sides and roof structure(foam-cored construction),Bolger does
specify using epoxy as the adhesive of choice.Part of the reasoning
for this choice being that you effectively end up "saturating" both
the inside and outside surfaces of the plywood with epoxy(as
pretains to the hull structure) and creat an effective water barrier
on the roof structure against condensation borne rot between
laminates.
Hope this helps and encourages you to move forward with a
Watervan.A lovely water camper and gunkholer!

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan

Yes having that many projects under your belt is a
good thing.

I also understand your wishing to find something other
to use then epoxy seeing how you are sensitized to it.
So when you do use it look at the 1 to 1 or 2 to 1
epoxys. I understand they are less toxic then the 5 to
1s. But face it toxic is a relative term!! It's all
bad for us!

Also for a bleeder cloth burlap works very well as
well. I have used it a number of times, if you are
working small parts like for an aircraft cheap paper
towles work even better.

With as much stuff I have worked with over the years
I'm suprised I have not become sensitized to the
stuff. But I was also one to be careful after I found
out about all the "bad stuff" what was in the resins
we were useing.

As much as I want to build a boat and be on the water,
waning to be flying has the edge and that's why we
will be working on the aircraft.

That's what happens when you are rased around work
Boats and Aircraft and old cars! And yes I have a love
for all three! My last car to buy is a 66 dodge one
ton truck. The owner neededsome work done that he
didn't have the skills to do and I did. I also needed
a TRUCK to haul stuff, so why not get an oldde and a
goodie.

Blessings Krissie

--- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

> Yes, Kristine, I agree 100%, Yes, Ill vacuum bag
> it, cool tip on the safety
> fence. This is my 37th boat project, most of them
> cold-molded or ply with
> one or two C-flex Shrimpboats for good measure and
> Ive become sensitized to
> the epoxies. Ill still be glassing the exterior
> with epoxy, Im just
> looking for an alternative adhesive for the basic
> structure. I am going with
> the foam core because I gain insulation in the
> process of both lightening
> and stiffening the overall deck. Tim P Anderson
>
>

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Yes, Kristine, I agree 100%, Yes, Ill vacuum bag it, cool tip on the safety
fence. This is my 37th boat project, most of them cold-molded or ply with
one or two C-flex Shrimpboats for good measure and Ive become sensitized to
the epoxies. Ill still be glassing the exterior with epoxy, Im just
looking for an alternative adhesive for the basic structure. I am going with
the foam core because I gain insulation in the process of both lightening
and stiffening the overall deck. Tim P Anderson

_____

From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kristine Bennett
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:49 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan

Tim I should also say I use to build fiberglass boats
for a living. With that said here are the reasons why
I say vacum bag it, and use epoxy.

I have set a lot of core and no matter how hard you
try you are going to get voids if you roll it or put
weights on it. When you bag it you get a much more
even pressure over the whole area. Also if you mix
the epoxy so it will still sag and not stuff it will
move and try to fill any voids that are there.

The down side is you need to have a VERY GOOD SEAL
over the whole area. Say you are doing the cabin top,
fill and tape all the plywood seams so they are air
tight! Frame in any openening and you may want to tab
them in so they don't move. Fit your foam and then
fit your top layer of ply.

Remove all the ply and foam and wet out the ply with
epoxy then use a notched trowle and spread your epoxy
slurry place your foam and where you ply seams are
place a prewet out fiberglass tape where your seams
land on the top of your foam slurry you foam and then
prime the bottom of your top ply and place them on top
and you may need to use a few nails to hold them in
place. Then seal the bag and pull vac to some where
around 10 to 15 inches of Hg.

I forgot to tell you when you fit your foam do it one
of two ways as say 4 to 6 inch squares or by putting
holes in it every 4 to 6 inches.

Also in your top ply you are going to want to drill
small vent holes say every Sq. foot or so as well.

What to bag it with 10 or 12 mil clear poly works fine
you are also going to need a bleader cloth and the
orange or black safty fence works great. Epoxy doesn't
stick to it.

The big thing is to get a good seal and keep it sealed
will it has cured.

I hope this has helped I know it sounds imposing but
it's not.

For a vac pump use a compressor out of an old frig or
frezzer. I put a gas filter in my vac line to help
keep the crap out of the pump

I made my vac pump out of an old 70s Ford AC
compresser and it will pull 28 inches of Hg.

I've had a couple people tell me I should do a demo
and take photos. Show people how to do things quick
and dirty. Also on the cheap side of things as well.

I hoped this has helped you Tim
Krissie

--- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@ <mailto:lebateautim%40earthlink.net>
earthlink.net> wrote:

> Im setting up to build Watervan and one of my
> structural mods is to build
> the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
> will be using PL of
> Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
> does this group think of
> the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
> built or owns a Watervan?
>
>
>
>
> Tim P Anderson
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AFAIK the only two Watervans have been built. One is in Australia and
the other was built in New Jersey by Steve Guterman and George Mindos.
They were at the Kingston ON Messabout in 2007. See Duckworks
somewhere for pics. I'd think Steve would be pretty willing to answer
questions. Terrific boat.

And IIRC Peter Lenihan of Windemere fame did a ply/foam sandwich for
some of his construction. I think Peter did a lot of thinking and
research before doing what he did (can't remember but I suspect
epoxy). Peter?

Bryant

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> I know there is one couple that has built one. I just
> can't remember who.
>
> THe draw back to useing the Urethane glues is you
> can't be sure you have a 100% bond over the whole
> area. Myself I would use mildly thickend epoxy and
> then vacumebag the foam to the ply. If you use slow
> epoxy you can bond the ply to both sides at one time.
> You just need a "mold" for the panel to form to and if
> it's not right the first time you are not going to
> change it after every thing has set.
>
> You are planing on doing the same thing I am when I
> get around to work on my Cruseahome hull.
>
> Anyplace you are going to have an opening besure to
> frame it in first and fill the void in the middle with
> a block of foam. To keep the ply caving in at the
> void.
>
> You are likely to spend more $$$$ on the PL then going
> with Epoxy.
>
> Mind you this is just my slant on things....
>
> You could try useing Tightbond 3 and bag it as well.
> But I think epoxy may be your best bet.
>
> Krissie
>
> --- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my
> > structural mods is to build
> > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
> > will be using PL of
> > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
> > does this group think of
> > the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
> > built or owns a Watervan?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tim P Anderson
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
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>

Tim I should also say I use to build fiberglass boats
for a living. With that said here are the reasons why
I say vacum bag it, and use epoxy.

I have set a lot of core and no matter how hard you
try you are going to get voids if you roll it or put
weights on it. When you bag it you get a much more
even pressure over the whole area. Also if you mix
the epoxy so it will still sag and not stuff it will
move and try to fill any voids that are there.

The down side is you need to have a VERY GOOD SEAL
over the whole area. Say you are doing the cabin top,
fill and tape all the plywood seams so they are air
tight! Frame in any openening and you may want to tab
them in so they don't move. Fit your foam and then
fit your top layer of ply.

Remove all the ply and foam and wet out the ply with
epoxy then use a notched trowle and spread your epoxy
slurry place your foam and where you ply seams are
place a prewet out fiberglass tape where your seams
land on the top of your foam slurry you foam and then
prime the bottom of your top ply and place them on top
and you may need to use a few nails to hold them in
place. Then seal the bag and pull vac to some where
around 10 to 15 inches of Hg.

I forgot to tell you when you fit your foam do it one
of two ways as say 4 to 6 inch squares or by putting
holes in it every 4 to 6 inches.

Also in your top ply you are going to want to drill
small vent holes say every Sq. foot or so as well.

What to bag it with 10 or 12 mil clear poly works fine
you are also going to need a bleader cloth and the
orange or black safty fence works great. Epoxy doesn't
stick to it.

The big thing is to get a good seal and keep it sealed
will it has cured.

I hope this has helped I know it sounds imposing but
it's not.

For a vac pump use a compressor out of an old frig or
frezzer. I put a gas filter in my vac line to help
keep the crap out of the pump

I made my vac pump out of an old 70s Ford AC
compresser and it will pull 28 inches of Hg.

I've had a couple people tell me I should do a demo
and take photos. Show people how to do things quick
and dirty. Also on the cheap side of things as well.

I hoped this has helped you Tim
Krissie

--- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

> Im setting up to build Watervan and one of my
> structural mods is to build
> the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
> will be using PL of
> Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
> does this group think of
> the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
> built or owns a Watervan?
>
>
>
>
> Tim P Anderson
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091

I know there is one couple that has built one. I just
can't remember who.

THe draw back to useing the Urethane glues is you
can't be sure you have a 100% bond over the whole
area. Myself I would use mildly thickend epoxy and
then vacumebag the foam to the ply. If you use slow
epoxy you can bond the ply to both sides at one time.
You just need a "mold" for the panel to form to and if
it's not right the first time you are not going to
change it after every thing has set.

You are planing on doing the same thing I am when I
get around to work on my Cruseahome hull.

Anyplace you are going to have an opening besure to
frame it in first and fill the void in the middle with
a block of foam. To keep the ply caving in at the
void.

You are likely to spend more $$$$ on the PL then going
with Epoxy.

Mind you this is just my slant on things....

You could try useing Tightbond 3 and bag it as well.
But I think epoxy may be your best bet.

Krissie

--- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

> Im setting up to build Watervan and one of my
> structural mods is to build
> the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
> will be using PL of
> Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
> does this group think of
> the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
> built or owns a Watervan?
>
>
>
>
> Tim P Anderson
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php

I use two glues in boat building. Epoxy for most stuff and plastic
resin glue for areas where two perfectly flat pieces are joined such
as framing wood on a bulkhead. Epoxy is nice in that it fills gaps
and I am using it for sealing the wood as well as glassing the
exterior.

Plastic resin glue, especially for things like building up frames on
bulkheads is much cheaper but really needs a perfect fitting joint.
It is waterproof and very strong. The powder can be mixed up easily
in tiny batches. I use a small electronic scale from Harbor Freight
for both plastic resin and for small batches of epoxy.

Paul H.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:

>
> I don't have the plans so I cannot see what Bolger recommends, but

you said

> you are modifying the structure, so my big question is why? Can't

you build

> the deck according to plans then glue the foam onto it later?
>
> Epoxy is considered best and most reliable for non-experts to use

when gluing

> wood. Gorilla Glue fails in test cases when you might think it

wouldn't.

> I've seen some bad reports on this glue, and I would not trust it

myself.

> Then again, this is not my boat ...
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods

is to build

> > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert Â¼ ply sandwich and will be

using PL of

> > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this

group think

> > of the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or

owns a

> > Watervan?
>

I don't have the plans so I cannot see what Bolger recommends, but you said
you are modifying the structure, so my big question is why? Can't you build
the deck according to plans then glue the foam onto it later?

Epoxy is considered best and most reliable for non-experts to use when gluing
wood. Gorilla Glue fails in test cases when you might think it wouldn't.
I've seen some bad reports on this glue, and I would not trust it myself.
Then again, this is not my boat ...

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com

> I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is to build
> the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using PL of
> Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think
> of the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a
> Watervan?

Over rated and over priced. The only place it is better then epoxy is
glueing endgrain. For my money stick to epoxy you have more controll
and work time.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
>
> I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is
to build
> the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using
PL of
> Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group
think of
> the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a
Watervan?
>
>
>
>
> Tim P Anderson
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fine woodworking mag did a piece on glues don't know if it's online but titebond 3 is waaaay better.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Im setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is to build
the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using PL of
Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think of
the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a Watervan?

Tim P Anderson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]