readability
This is a lot more readable. Just one more thing: how do we access the photos mentioned in one of the Micro letters?
http://www.abc
<http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript>
net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
What an eye opener. How indeed about instituting forward contracts and
futures as fishing-effort stabilizers? Larger-fish limits and protected
areas as fish-population insurance?
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
graeme19121984
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: readability
Future community and fishing sustainability: forward contracts and
futures?
http://www.abc
<http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript>
net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript>
net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
What an eye opener. How indeed about instituting forward contracts and
futures as fishing-effort stabilizers? Larger-fish limits and protected
areas as fish-population insurance?
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
graeme19121984
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: readability
Future community and fishing sustainability: forward contracts and
futures?
http://www.abc
<http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript>
net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Future community and fishing sustainability: forward contracts and
futures?
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
futures?
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
Crikey, next it'll be that men listen as much too!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> The news shows lately have been reporting the results of a study that
says men talk just as much as women. Ha!
The news shows lately have been reporting the results of a study that says men talk just as much as women. Ha!
I took the gist of the idea below and faxed it to Suzanne. Last night she phoned a little after ten pm. I displayed my brilliance by listening without argument to everything she said. We hung up about midnight.
Note that this was a "cold call" for her. We've never met nor talked.
She dismissed the idea that Dale Carnegie's ideas would have any benefit for them, but I was reminded that "Let the other person do most of the talking." is one of their key sales points.
I actually do agree with most of her points, but I'm very pessimistic about saving the Gloucester fishing fleet.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
I took the gist of the idea below and faxed it to Suzanne. Last night she phoned a little after ten pm. I displayed my brilliance by listening without argument to everything she said. We hung up about midnight.
Note that this was a "cold call" for her. We've never met nor talked.
She dismissed the idea that Dale Carnegie's ideas would have any benefit for them, but I was reminded that "Let the other person do most of the talking." is one of their key sales points.
I actually do agree with most of her points, but I'm very pessimistic about saving the Gloucester fishing fleet.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: derbyrm
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: [bolger] readability
The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
intelligent people to make a mistake.
I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an education
level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I paraphrased a
few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, the level ascribed
to Gloucester voters; e.g.,
In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe and
competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed match the
challenge of this comprehensive definition of sustainability.
became
Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
generations to come.
I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their ideas.
Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's an old problem.I remember seeing an article in a
railway magazine in the 1950's by an old engine driver
saying that the design office should build the first
locomotive of a new class,operate it for 6 months and
then go back to the drawing board.It should be
compulsory for the designer of any prodct to do that -
automobiles in particular - to do that,or the prodct
be labelled that it is designed to be thrown away
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
railway magazine in the 1950's by an old engine driver
saying that the design office should build the first
locomotive of a new class,operate it for 6 months and
then go back to the drawing board.It should be
compulsory for the designer of any prodct to do that -
automobiles in particular - to do that,or the prodct
be labelled that it is designed to be thrown away
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Well, the aircraft yarn is a bit iffy. Due to liability, most flight schools teach that one should never prop an aircraft -- too dangerous.
The fellow in the next hanger had a Pitts with an IO-540. He ran his battery down after refueling at the gas pumps and could find no one who'd try propping it until I came around. A hot 540 is a bear to start even with a good battery, and the "flipping" went on and on. (Note that flipping that large an engine is a full body thrust.) The danger is that one gets into a rhythm. Pull and fall back, recover and repeat. Hot, sweaty, tired. When the engine finally catches, you're lunging forward for the next pull.
Losing your head in the wilderness is no problem, but they might have lost a hand or arm.
Smaller engines are no problem. My 80 cubic inch Aeronca didn't even have a starter, but much over 300 cubes is a challenge.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
The fellow in the next hanger had a Pitts with an IO-540. He ran his battery down after refueling at the gas pumps and could find no one who'd try propping it until I came around. A hot 540 is a bear to start even with a good battery, and the "flipping" went on and on. (Note that flipping that large an engine is a full body thrust.) The danger is that one gets into a rhythm. Pull and fall back, recover and repeat. Hot, sweaty, tired. When the engine finally catches, you're lunging forward for the next pull.
Losing your head in the wilderness is no problem, but they might have lost a hand or arm.
Smaller engines are no problem. My 80 cubic inch Aeronca didn't even have a starter, but much over 300 cubes is a challenge.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristine Bennett
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
That's amost as good as Dad finding 3 yes Three!
piolts out on one of the back country strips that had
been there 5 or 6 day with no food. They had left the
master switch on to play the radio and the battery
went dead!
Hmmm aircraft engines have a pair of mags to you have
your spark and you can hand prop the engine to start
it.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This last year we hired a 6 year engineering student from Florida Atlantic
University. We are still struggling with teaching him to write sentences
that make sense when read aloud. Never mind the comments on common sense.
Many of the larger universities have turned into puppy mills for who ever is
the largest donor; it is my understanding that with FAU it is Lockheed
Martin who scoops up the majority of graduates.
We are having the same issue with a biologist with a master degree. This
country is in a sad state of affairs regarding education.
Caloosarat
A high school graduate, now playing the part of vice president of an
engineering firm, imagine that.
_____
Like Dad said these guys had more sheep skins hanging
on their walls then he could read! Yep being hands on
is a lot better way to learn stuff. Also you tend not
to make the same mistake very many times!
Paws
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
University. We are still struggling with teaching him to write sentences
that make sense when read aloud. Never mind the comments on common sense.
Many of the larger universities have turned into puppy mills for who ever is
the largest donor; it is my understanding that with FAU it is Lockheed
Martin who scoops up the majority of graduates.
We are having the same issue with a biologist with a master degree. This
country is in a sad state of affairs regarding education.
Caloosarat
A high school graduate, now playing the part of vice president of an
engineering firm, imagine that.
_____
Like Dad said these guys had more sheep skins hanging
on their walls then he could read! Yep being hands on
is a lot better way to learn stuff. Also you tend not
to make the same mistake very many times!
Paws
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's amost as good as Dad finding 3 yes Three!
piolts out on one of the back country strips that had
been there 5 or 6 day with no food. They had left the
master switch on to play the radio and the battery
went dead!
Hmmm aircraft engines have a pair of mags to you have
your spark and you can hand prop the engine to start
it.
Like Dad said these guys had more sheep skins hanging
on their walls then he could read! Yep being hands on
is a lot better way to learn stuff. Also you tend not
to make the same mistake very many times!
Paws
--- gilberj55 <gilberj55@...> wrote:
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
piolts out on one of the back country strips that had
been there 5 or 6 day with no food. They had left the
master switch on to play the radio and the battery
went dead!
Hmmm aircraft engines have a pair of mags to you have
your spark and you can hand prop the engine to start
it.
Like Dad said these guys had more sheep skins hanging
on their walls then he could read! Yep being hands on
is a lot better way to learn stuff. Also you tend not
to make the same mistake very many times!
Paws
--- gilberj55 <gilberj55@...> wrote:
> We all probably have stories about highly educated____________________________________________________________________________________
> people who have
> proven themselves complete idiots when faced with a
> "real" problem,
> and the best stories involve stupidities relating
> ones own field.
> The most recent that I have to recount....
> My friend a Navel Architect was for a time at the
> National Research
> Centre test facility in Newfoundland. As he did not
> hold a Phd he was
> considered just one of the help. One woman with a
> Phd in Ocean
> engineering was in a dinghy in the test tank to make
> some adjustment
> to the half million dollar model, could not figure
> how to use the
> oars or paddle and ended up damaging the model and
> swamping the dighy
> and having to swim for it.....
>
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
We all probably have stories about highly educated people who have
proven themselves complete idiots when faced with a "real" problem,
and the best stories involve stupidities relating ones own field.
The most recent that I have to recount....
My friend a Navel Architect was for a time at the National Research
Centre test facility in Newfoundland. As he did not hold a Phd he was
considered just one of the help. One woman with a Phd in Ocean
engineering was in a dinghy in the test tank to make some adjustment
to the half million dollar model, could not figure how to use the
oars or paddle and ended up damaging the model and swamping the dighy
and having to swim for it.....
proven themselves complete idiots when faced with a "real" problem,
and the best stories involve stupidities relating ones own field.
The most recent that I have to recount....
My friend a Navel Architect was for a time at the National Research
Centre test facility in Newfoundland. As he did not hold a Phd he was
considered just one of the help. One woman with a Phd in Ocean
engineering was in a dinghy in the test tank to make some adjustment
to the half million dollar model, could not figure how to use the
oars or paddle and ended up damaging the model and swamping the dighy
and having to swim for it.....
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
>
> All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
shops of
> the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
> un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
practical
> application practice. TA
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Kristine Bennett
> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
>
>
>
> Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
> of places where the engineer's designed the whole
> unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
> way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
> and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
> trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
> that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
> welding was blamed for cracked welds.
>
> At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
> pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
> and let the people on the floor design the parts and
> then let engineering run the numbers!
>
> I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
> delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
> to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
> and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com>
com> wrote:
>
> > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
> > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
> >
> > "There comes a time in every project
> > when one must
> > shoot the designer
> > and go into production."
> >
> > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> > perfection and "just one more thing."
> >
> > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
> > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> htbbNOSPAM.com
> > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm>
insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
Yahoo! Games.
> http://videogames. <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?
platform=120121>
> yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
There was a time when the universities supplied some of the practical education. At the University of Illinois in the 1950s, the Electrical Engineers were presented with black boxes labeled "Capacitor, 20uF" or "Inductor 35 mH." These were connected together with big jumper cables and the results measured with sterile instruments.
But, over in the Physics Department, we students were turned loose in a large room full of World War II surplus components. We first built our own test equipment using soldering irons, screwdrivers and bits of wood. After doing a few "standard" experiments, we then designed our own experiments, conducted those experiments, and reported the results. I remember that my "binary" counter quickly demonstrated that relays had more than two states; "one," "zero," and "Hang on, I'm getting there." This called for quite a drastic redesign of the experiment.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
But, over in the Physics Department, we students were turned loose in a large room full of World War II surplus components. We first built our own test equipment using soldering irons, screwdrivers and bits of wood. After doing a few "standard" experiments, we then designed our own experiments, conducted those experiments, and reported the results. I remember that my "binary" counter quickly demonstrated that relays had more than two states; "one," "zero," and "Hang on, I'm getting there." This called for quite a drastic redesign of the experiment.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Breton Losch
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
I feel I have to speak out in defense of my engineering brethren.
I have had experiences throughout my career of the "theoretical only" engineer that everyone keep complaining about. In fact, the number of these engineers that I encountered in my educational career convinced me to get my Ph.D., just to show that theory and common sense aren't mutually exclusive. My grandfather was an engineer in the coal mines, and I was introduced to the seat-of-your-pants approach to design at an early age. During my teaching stints, I always insisted that my students actually produce a working example in the lab of at least the basic theoretical model, to help with physical intuition. While it's true that man can't design by equation alone, it's also true that through the equations, new approaches can present
themselves -- especially ones that seem counter-intuitive.
Long story short, you really need a good mix of the theoretical and the practical to get a good design. I fully agree that apprenticeships in a shop/production setting is the best way to get young engineers to develop a feel for the implementation of their designs, and hopefully encourage them to design accordingly. Unfortunately, cost pressures tend to keep many companies from expending the necessary resources to get this training, so a good non-adversarial relationship between the guys on the floor that have been doing this for 30 some odd years and the designers is essential. And, hey, you both can complain about marketing....
Bret
On 7/5/07, Bryant Owen <mariner@...> wrote:
>
> During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
> department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
>
> To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
> might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
>
> Bryant
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tim Anderson"
> <lebateautim@...> wrote:
> >
> > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
> shops of the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no practical application practice. TA
> >
> > From:bolger@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of Kristine Bennett
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
> >
> > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
> > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
> > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
> > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
> > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
> > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
> > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
> > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
> >
> > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
> > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
> > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
> > then let engineering run the numbers!
> >
> > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
> > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
> > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
> > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
> >
> > Blessings Krissie
> >
> > --- derbyrmderbyrm@...
> >
> > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
> > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
> > >
> > > "There comes a time in every project
> > > when one must
> > > shoot the designer
> > > and go into production."
> > >
> > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> > > perfection and "just one more thing."
> > >
> > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
Recent Activity
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well put. You are, of course, absolutely right. Actually I never had
that much problem with marketing - but salesmen...
Bryant - whose gf was a civil engineer
that much problem with marketing - but salesmen...
Bryant - whose gf was a civil engineer
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Breton Losch" <b.losch@...> wrote:
>
> I feel I have to speak out in defense of my engineering brethren.
>
> I have had experiences throughout my career of the "theoretical only"
> engineer that everyone keep complaining about. In fact, the number
of these
> engineers that I encountered in my educational career convinced me
to get my
> Ph.D., just to show that theory and common sense aren't mutually
exclusive.
> My grandfather was an engineer in the coal mines, and I was
introduced to
> the seat-of-your-pants approach to design at an early age. During my
> teaching stints, I always insisted that my students actually produce a
> working example in the lab of at least the basic theoretical model,
to help
> with physical intuition. While it's true that man can't design by
equation
> alone, it's also true that through the equations, new approaches can
present
> themselves -- especially ones that seem counter-intuitive.
>
> Long story short, you really need a good mix of the theoretical and the
> practical to get a good design. I fully agree that apprenticeships in a
> shop/production setting is the best way to get young engineers to
develop a
> feel for the implementation of their designs, and hopefully
encourage them
> to design accordingly. Unfortunately, cost pressures tend to keep many
> companies from expending the necessary resources to get this
training, so a
> good non-adversarial relationship between the guys on the floor that
have
> been doing this for 30 some odd years and the designers is
essential. And,
> hey, you both can complain about marketing....
>
> Bret
>
> On 7/5/07, Bryant Owen <mariner@...> wrote:
> >
> > During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
> > department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
> > units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
> > here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
> > of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
> > trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
> > backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
> > bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
> >
> > To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
> > might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
> >
> > Bryant
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tim
Anderson"
> > <lebateautim@> wrote:
> > >
> > > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
> > shops of
> > > the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
> > > un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
> > practical
> > > application practice. TA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> > bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > Kristine Bennett
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
> > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
> > > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
> > > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
> > > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
> > > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
> > > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
> > > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
> > > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
> > >
> > > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
> > > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
> > > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
> > > then let engineering run the numbers!
> > >
> > > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
> > > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
> > > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
> > > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
> > >
> > > Blessings Krissie
> > >
> > > --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
> > 40insightbb.com>
> > com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
> > > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
> > > >
> > > > "There comes a time in every project
> > > > when one must
> > > > shoot the designer
> > > > and go into production."
> > > >
> > > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> > > > perfection and "just one more thing."
> > > >
> > > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
> > > > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
> > 40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> > > htbbNOSPAM.com
> > > > http://home.
<http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
> > >
> > insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________________
> > > Be a PS3 game guru.
> > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
> > Yahoo! Games.
> > > http://videogames.
> > <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
> > > yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo
it."
>
> -- Lao Tzu
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I feel I have to speak out in defense of my engineering brethren.
I have had experiences throughout my career of the "theoretical only"
engineer that everyone keep complaining about. In fact, the number of these
engineers that I encountered in my educational career convinced me to get my
Ph.D., just to show that theory and common sense aren't mutually exclusive.
My grandfather was an engineer in the coal mines, and I was introduced to
the seat-of-your-pants approach to design at an early age. During my
teaching stints, I always insisted that my students actually produce a
working example in the lab of at least the basic theoretical model, to help
with physical intuition. While it's true that man can't design by equation
alone, it's also true that through the equations, new approaches can present
themselves -- especially ones that seem counter-intuitive.
Long story short, you really need a good mix of the theoretical and the
practical to get a good design. I fully agree that apprenticeships in a
shop/production setting is the best way to get young engineers to develop a
feel for the implementation of their designs, and hopefully encourage them
to design accordingly. Unfortunately, cost pressures tend to keep many
companies from expending the necessary resources to get this training, so a
good non-adversarial relationship between the guys on the floor that have
been doing this for 30 some odd years and the designers is essential. And,
hey, you both can complain about marketing....
Bret
I have had experiences throughout my career of the "theoretical only"
engineer that everyone keep complaining about. In fact, the number of these
engineers that I encountered in my educational career convinced me to get my
Ph.D., just to show that theory and common sense aren't mutually exclusive.
My grandfather was an engineer in the coal mines, and I was introduced to
the seat-of-your-pants approach to design at an early age. During my
teaching stints, I always insisted that my students actually produce a
working example in the lab of at least the basic theoretical model, to help
with physical intuition. While it's true that man can't design by equation
alone, it's also true that through the equations, new approaches can present
themselves -- especially ones that seem counter-intuitive.
Long story short, you really need a good mix of the theoretical and the
practical to get a good design. I fully agree that apprenticeships in a
shop/production setting is the best way to get young engineers to develop a
feel for the implementation of their designs, and hopefully encourage them
to design accordingly. Unfortunately, cost pressures tend to keep many
companies from expending the necessary resources to get this training, so a
good non-adversarial relationship between the guys on the floor that have
been doing this for 30 some odd years and the designers is essential. And,
hey, you both can complain about marketing....
Bret
On 7/5/07, Bryant Owen <mariner@...> wrote:
>
> During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
> department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
> units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
> here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
> of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
> trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
> backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
> bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
>
> To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
> might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
>
> Bryant
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tim Anderson"
> <lebateautim@...> wrote:
> >
> > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
> shops of
> > the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
> > un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
> practical
> > application practice. TA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf Of
> > Kristine Bennett
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
> > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
> >
> >
> >
> > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
> > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
> > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
> > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
> > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
> > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
> > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
> > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
> >
> > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
> > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
> > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
> > then let engineering run the numbers!
> >
> > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
> > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
> > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
> > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
> >
> > Blessings Krissie
> >
> > --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
> 40insightbb.com>
> com> wrote:
> >
> > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
> > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
> > >
> > > "There comes a time in every project
> > > when one must
> > > shoot the designer
> > > and go into production."
> > >
> > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> > > perfection and "just one more thing."
> > >
> > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
> > > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
> 40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> > htbbNOSPAM.com
> > > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
> >
> insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Be a PS3 game guru.
> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
> Yahoo! Games.
> > http://videogames.
> <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
> > yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
--
"Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo it."
-- Lao Tzu
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That was something GE's Appliance Park did well. The field service types were regularly called in to review/approve design mods and they often caused changes to be made.
You want real serviceability problems, look at some of the homebuilt aircraft. It's not at all unusual to have to cut a hole in the side of the fuselage and jury rig an access panel, just to make an adjustment or replace a bearing.
On the other hand I watched the guys in the next dock replace a genset on a Coast Guard Cutter. They cut a hole in the side of the hull, pulled out the equipment and took it away. A few weeks later they came back and put the genset back in. The hole 10' x 6' ??? was then welded shut.
Roger (Boy this thread has sure drifted from "writing for your intended audience.")
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
You want real serviceability problems, look at some of the homebuilt aircraft. It's not at all unusual to have to cut a hole in the side of the fuselage and jury rig an access panel, just to make an adjustment or replace a bearing.
On the other hand I watched the guys in the next dock replace a genset on a Coast Guard Cutter. They cut a hole in the side of the hull, pulled out the equipment and took it away. A few weeks later they came back and put the genset back in. The hole 10' x 6' ??? was then welded shut.
Roger (Boy this thread has sure drifted from "writing for your intended audience.")
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryant Owen
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: readability
During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
Bryant
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
>
> All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
shops of
> the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
> un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
practical
> application practice. TA
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Kristine Bennett
> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
>
>
>
> Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
> of places where the engineer's designed the whole
> unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
> way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
> and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
> trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
> that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
> welding was blamed for cracked welds.
>
> At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
> pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
> and let the people on the floor design the parts and
> then let engineering run the numbers!
>
> I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
> delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
> to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
> and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com>
com> wrote:
>
> > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
> > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
> >
> > "There comes a time in every project
> > when one must
> > shoot the designer
> > and go into production."
> >
> > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> > perfection and "just one more thing."
> >
> > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
> > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> htbbNOSPAM.com
> > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm>
insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
Yahoo! Games.
> http://videogames.
<http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
> yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
Bryant
department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
Bryant
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
>
> All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
shops of
> the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
> un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
practical
> application practice. TA
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Kristine Bennett
> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
>
>
>
> Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
> of places where the engineer's designed the whole
> unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
> way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
> and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
> trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
> that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
> welding was blamed for cracked welds.
>
> At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
> pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
> and let the people on the floor design the parts and
> then let engineering run the numbers!
>
> I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
> delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
> to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
> and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com>
com> wrote:
>
> > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
> > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
> >
> > "There comes a time in every project
> > when one must
> > shoot the designer
> > and go into production."
> >
> > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> > perfection and "just one more thing."
> >
> > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
> > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> htbbNOSPAM.com
> > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm>
insightbb.com/~derbyrm
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
Yahoo! Games.
> http://videogames.
<http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
> yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the shops of
the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no practical
application practice. TA
_____
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kristine Bennett
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
of places where the engineer's designed the whole
unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
welding was blamed for cracked welds.
At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
and let the people on the floor design the parts and
then let engineering run the numbers!
I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
Blessings Krissie
--- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com> com> wrote:
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames. <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no practical
application practice. TA
_____
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kristine Bennett
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
of places where the engineer's designed the whole
unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
welding was blamed for cracked welds.
At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
and let the people on the floor design the parts and
then let engineering run the numbers!
I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
Blessings Krissie
--- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com> com> wrote:
> Sign on the wall of one of the many ProgramhtbbNOSPAM.com
> Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
>
> "There comes a time in every project
> when one must
> shoot the designer
> and go into production."
>
> In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> perfection and "just one more thing."
>
> Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
> derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
> http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm> insightbb.com/~derbyrm__________________________________________________________
>
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames. <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We run into it all the time in home building. A Designer (want to be)
was building his owen home and doing it all on a CAD program. First
he ordered out special siding that was a full 1/2" then 5/4 trim. I
told him the siding would stick out past the trim when laped. He
thought 5/4 was 1-1/4" not 1". Another thing was 4X4 knee braces
holding up a 4X6 trellis with no support where it was nailed to the
ply wall. Boats, homers and apliances like everything else when you
don't have to think things through and can change them easly things
can be screwy. Nothing like haveing something that is fabricated and
the directions say to site fit.
Jon
was building his owen home and doing it all on a CAD program. First
he ordered out special siding that was a full 1/2" then 5/4 trim. I
told him the siding would stick out past the trim when laped. He
thought 5/4 was 1-1/4" not 1". Another thing was 4X4 knee braces
holding up a 4X6 trellis with no support where it was nailed to the
ply wall. Boats, homers and apliances like everything else when you
don't have to think things through and can change them easly things
can be screwy. Nothing like haveing something that is fabricated and
the directions say to site fit.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> At GE's Appliance Park I was told that if they tried to produce an
electric range according to the drawings, it would not go together.
The guys on the shop floor had modified the dies as needed to make
things fit. Of course that caused more problems that called for more
modifications, et. cetera. There was a long embarrassing silence
when I asked how wide a 30" range was and what were the tolerances.
>
> I do believe that it's due more to bad management than to bad
engineering.
>
> There's a horror story about the Piper Tomahawk which was due to
manufacturing "redesigning" the plane after it had gotten its
airworthiness certificate. Several people died.
>
> I used to hang out on the repair line to see what problems were
being found and how the guys found them. One very skilled individual
had the weirdest theory of electricity I've ever heard, but it worked
for him.
>
> The best case is when a manufacturing engineer is part of the
initial design team.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
At GE's Appliance Park I was told that if they tried to produce an electric range according to the drawings, it would not go together. The guys on the shop floor had modified the dies as needed to make things fit. Of course that caused more problems that called for more modifications, et. cetera. There was a long embarrassing silence when I asked how wide a 30" range was and what were the tolerances.
I do believe that it's due more to bad management than to bad engineering.
There's a horror story about the Piper Tomahawk which was due to manufacturing "redesigning" the plane after it had gotten its airworthiness certificate. Several people died.
I used to hang out on the repair line to see what problems were being found and how the guys found them. One very skilled individual had the weirdest theory of electricity I've ever heard, but it worked for him.
The best case is when a manufacturing engineer is part of the initial design team.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
I do believe that it's due more to bad management than to bad engineering.
There's a horror story about the Piper Tomahawk which was due to manufacturing "redesigning" the plane after it had gotten its airworthiness certificate. Several people died.
I used to hang out on the repair line to see what problems were being found and how the guys found them. One very skilled individual had the weirdest theory of electricity I've ever heard, but it worked for him.
The best case is when a manufacturing engineer is part of the initial design team.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristine Bennett
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
of places where the engineer's designed the whole
unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
welding was blamed for cracked welds.
At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
and let the people on the floor design the parts and
then let engineering run the numbers!
I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
Blessings Krissie
--- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
> Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
> Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
>
> "There comes a time in every project
> when one must
> shoot the designer
> and go into production."
>
> In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> perfection and "just one more thing."
>
> Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
>derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
__________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
With this idea in mind, did the Bonefish ever make it
into a full set of plans? I showed the info I had for
it to a friend and he liked the idea for a smaller
boat just to play around the islands with. He's
getting tired of putting 200 plus bucks in the tanks
of his Bayliner just to play for a weekend. He says
anytime he splashes his boat he spends 50 to 100 bucks
in just gas. OUCH! What he has is a 28 or 30 footer.
I told him just sell the thing and buy a smaller boat.
He said he was going to sell it and build himself a
smaller boat. He even liked the Fiddler II, but it was
a bit to small.
Blessings Krissie
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
into a full set of plans? I showed the info I had for
it to a friend and he liked the idea for a smaller
boat just to play around the islands with. He's
getting tired of putting 200 plus bucks in the tanks
of his Bayliner just to play for a weekend. He says
anytime he splashes his boat he spends 50 to 100 bucks
in just gas. OUCH! What he has is a 28 or 30 footer.
I told him just sell the thing and buy a smaller boat.
He said he was going to sell it and build himself a
smaller boat. He even liked the Fiddler II, but it was
a bit to small.
Blessings Krissie
> In my observation, SA shares a lot of the genius we____________________________________________________________________________________
> all love from
> PCB's work. My take on the 'simplicity question' is
> that my personal
> favorite period in PCB's design life was the
> 1970-80's, with his
> collaboration with Dynamite Payson, with the single
> most elegant
> design being the Tortoise. There is a limit on how
> many times you can
> design ultra simple plywood boat before you get
> repetitive. You could
> never ask for so much boat with such ultra
> simplicity again. In the
> 1990's to now, SA and PCB have moved on to more
> complex boats. Really
> good ones too. So be it. We cannot expect designs
> of ultra simple
> boats to repeat over and over and over.
>
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
of places where the engineer's designed the whole
unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
welding was blamed for cracked welds.
At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
and let the people on the floor design the parts and
then let engineering run the numbers!
I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
Blessings Krissie
--- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
of places where the engineer's designed the whole
unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
welding was blamed for cracked welds.
At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
and let the people on the floor design the parts and
then let engineering run the numbers!
I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
Blessings Krissie
--- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
> Sign on the wall of one of the many Program____________________________________________________________________________________
> Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
>
> "There comes a time in every project
> when one must
> shoot the designer
> and go into production."
>
> In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
> perfection and "just one more thing."
>
> Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
>derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
> No doubt Suzanne is a brilliant engineer. I have to wonder sometimesIn my observation, SA shares a lot of the genius we all love from
> if she might tend to "over-engineer" until the original simplicity of
> the design gets lost in a maze of engineering details and fixes for
> things that ain't broke?
PCB's work. My take on the 'simplicity question' is that my personal
favorite period in PCB's design life was the 1970-80's, with his
collaboration with Dynamite Payson, with the single most elegant
design being the Tortoise. There is a limit on how many times you can
design ultra simple plywood boat before you get repetitive. You could
never ask for so much boat with such ultra simplicity again. In the
1990's to now, SA and PCB have moved on to more complex boats. Really
good ones too. So be it. We cannot expect designs of ultra simple
boats to repeat over and over and over.
Sign on the wall of one of the many Program Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
"There comes a time in every project
when one must
shoot the designer
and go into production."
In an engineer's genes there is the urge for perfection and "just one more thing."
Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
"There comes a time in every project
when one must
shoot the designer
and go into production."
In an engineer's genes there is the urge for perfection and "just one more thing."
Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 11:11 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: readability
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
> intelligent people to make a mistake.
>
> I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
> Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an education
> level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I paraphrased a few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, > the level ascribed to Gloucester voters; e.g.,
>
> In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe > and competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed > match the challenge of this comprehensive definition of > sustainability.
>
> became
>
> Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
> generations to come.
>
>
> I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their > ideas.
>
> Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
Interesting and very astute observations Roger.
I offer this quote from Charles' post re:
his association with Suzanne Attenberg,
"She does most of the work now. She works with my ship
forms."
No doubt Suzanne is a brilliant engineer. I have to wonder sometimes
if she might tend to "over-engineer" until the original simplicity of
the design gets lost in a maze of engineering details and fixes for
things that ain't broke?
It seems to me that several prospective builders are going back to
studying the older, simpler designs, perhaps incorporating some of the upgrades but not really attracted towards the newest innovations, even though some of them are obviously brilliant.
For example I have heard that several folks are leaning towards a BW 11/2:-)
Or maybe there are too many cats in the Design Department?
Nels
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
I offer this quote from Charles' post re:
his association with Suzanne Attenberg,
"She does most of the work now. She works with my ship
forms."
No doubt Suzanne is a brilliant engineer. I have to wonder sometimes
if she might tend to "over-engineer" until the original simplicity of
the design gets lost in a maze of engineering details and fixes for
things that ain't broke?
It seems to me that several prospective builders are going back to
studying the older, simpler designs, perhaps incorporating some of the
upgrades but not really attracted towards the newest innovations,
even though some of them are obviously brilliant.
For example I have heard that several folks are leaning towards a BW
11/2:-)
Or maybe there are too many cats in the Design Department?
Nels
>education
> The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
> intelligent people to make a mistake.
>
> I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
> Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an
> level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. Iparaphrased a
> few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, the levelascribed
> to Gloucester voters; e.g.,Interesting and very astute observations Roger.
>
> In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe and
> competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed match the
> challenge of this comprehensive definition of sustainability.
>
> became
>
> Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
> generations to come.
>
>
> I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their ideas.
>
> Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
I offer this quote from Charles' post re:
his association with Suzanne Attenberg,
"She does most of the work now. She works with my ship
forms."
No doubt Suzanne is a brilliant engineer. I have to wonder sometimes
if she might tend to "over-engineer" until the original simplicity of
the design gets lost in a maze of engineering details and fixes for
things that ain't broke?
It seems to me that several prospective builders are going back to
studying the older, simpler designs, perhaps incorporating some of the
upgrades but not really attracted towards the newest innovations,
even though some of them are obviously brilliant.
For example I have heard that several folks are leaning towards a BW
11/2:-)
Or maybe there are too many cats in the Design Department?
Nels
The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
intelligent people to make a mistake.
I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an education
level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I paraphrased a
few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, the level ascribed
to Gloucester voters; e.g.,
In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe and
competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed match the
challenge of this comprehensive definition of sustainability.
became
Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
generations to come.
I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their ideas.
Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
intelligent people to make a mistake.
I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an education
level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I paraphrased a
few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, the level ascribed
to Gloucester voters; e.g.,
In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe and
competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed match the
challenge of this comprehensive definition of sustainability.
became
Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
generations to come.
I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their ideas.
Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm