Re: [bolger] Re: Bottom butt joint problem
Thanks to all of you for helping me think this through.
Just to clarify (and so you won't all think I am a total moron), the panels are screwed down but not glued.
I think I'll try what was my own original thoughts that have been seconded by several of you - -- use some kind of a temporary beam screwed on to straighten the ply panel.
I'll let you know how it works out.
David C-
Just to clarify (and so you won't all think I am a total moron), the panels are screwed down but not glued.
I think I'll try what was my own original thoughts that have been seconded by several of you - -- use some kind of a temporary beam screwed on to straighten the ply panel.
I'll let you know how it works out.
David C-
Well, one way or another, hope to see you in Kingston avec or sans
Windermere.
BTW - if memory serves correctly, there should be an antique and
classic boat show at Peterborough next year. There are a number of new
boats that fit "in spirit" with the classics - meaning for the most
part well turned out wooden vessels. Windermere would fit in
perfectly. And you'd get a chance to go through the Lift Locks!
Hopefully I'll be at Kingston this year with a new "classic" boat and
keep Eileen the Mouse at home.
Bryant - who could stand something poured down his gullet
Windermere.
BTW - if memory serves correctly, there should be an antique and
classic boat show at Peterborough next year. There are a number of new
boats that fit "in spirit" with the classics - meaning for the most
part well turned out wooden vessels. Windermere would fit in
perfectly. And you'd get a chance to go through the Lift Locks!
Hopefully I'll be at Kingston this year with a new "classic" boat and
keep Eileen the Mouse at home.
Bryant - who could stand something poured down his gullet
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@> wrote:
> >
> > I stand gently corrected. Hey, at least I remembered that much
> which
> > is pretty good for me these days.
> >
> > Will we be seeing Windermere at the Kingston Messabout this year?
> >
> > Bryant - almost along the bug and weed infested TSW.
> >
>
> Hi Bryant,
>
> I hear you on the memory front.I can usually get by rather well
> on two neurons but boys does it ever get dicey when one of them
> takes a nap :-)
> I wish I could say yes to the messabout but it just ain't gonna
> happen,yet again.There are rumours however that the builder may show
> up.Precious and critical time has been lost recently,aka Kiss-July-
> Goodbye, due to a move from hell experience which has yet to be
> resolved and will probably end up at the local rental board.Toss in
> a few weeks of real holiday/vacation time,aka,Kiss-Most-Of-August-
> Goodbye, for the sake of domestic harmony and you can see why things
> are happening only in spurts and taking so damned long.Don't ask me
> about the weather :-)
> But determined I remain and by golly I'm gonna get there one year
> soon(believe it or not,next Spring is actually looking like the real
> thing for a launch!) even if it means drinking every bar on the way
> there dry Arrrg!
> I would also love to cruise the Trent Severn just so I could drop
> by and spill some beverage down yer gullet to sorta relieve what
> ails ya and provide a measure of relief from the flying bastards
> bugs :-)
>
> Enjoy what passes for summer my friend,it will soon be over!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@...> wrote:
I hear you on the memory front.I can usually get by rather well
on two neurons but boys does it ever get dicey when one of them
takes a nap :-)
I wish I could say yes to the messabout but it just ain't gonna
happen,yet again.There are rumours however that the builder may show
up.Precious and critical time has been lost recently,aka Kiss-July-
Goodbye, due to a move from hell experience which has yet to be
resolved and will probably end up at the local rental board.Toss in
a few weeks of real holiday/vacation time,aka,Kiss-Most-Of-August-
Goodbye, for the sake of domestic harmony and you can see why things
are happening only in spurts and taking so damned long.Don't ask me
about the weather :-)
But determined I remain and by golly I'm gonna get there one year
soon(believe it or not,next Spring is actually looking like the real
thing for a launch!) even if it means drinking every bar on the way
there dry Arrrg!
I would also love to cruise the Trent Severn just so I could drop
by and spill some beverage down yer gullet to sorta relieve what
ails ya and provide a measure of relief from the flying bastards
bugs :-)
Enjoy what passes for summer my friend,it will soon be over!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
>which
> I stand gently corrected. Hey, at least I remembered that much
> is pretty good for me these days.Hi Bryant,
>
> Will we be seeing Windermere at the Kingston Messabout this year?
>
> Bryant - almost along the bug and weed infested TSW.
>
I hear you on the memory front.I can usually get by rather well
on two neurons but boys does it ever get dicey when one of them
takes a nap :-)
I wish I could say yes to the messabout but it just ain't gonna
happen,yet again.There are rumours however that the builder may show
up.Precious and critical time has been lost recently,aka Kiss-July-
Goodbye, due to a move from hell experience which has yet to be
resolved and will probably end up at the local rental board.Toss in
a few weeks of real holiday/vacation time,aka,Kiss-Most-Of-August-
Goodbye, for the sake of domestic harmony and you can see why things
are happening only in spurts and taking so damned long.Don't ask me
about the weather :-)
But determined I remain and by golly I'm gonna get there one year
soon(believe it or not,next Spring is actually looking like the real
thing for a launch!) even if it means drinking every bar on the way
there dry Arrrg!
I would also love to cruise the Trent Severn just so I could drop
by and spill some beverage down yer gullet to sorta relieve what
ails ya and provide a measure of relief from the flying bastards
bugs :-)
Enjoy what passes for summer my friend,it will soon be over!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
yourself with the League of Cooking Sherry Drinkers.Count your
blessings lad! :-)
explained by you above. I'm just too far along with my OCD to ever
go back to normality :-D
Keep a good thought Nels!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> Well excuse me for associating myself with those people!It could be worse Nels,much more worse.....you could be associating
yourself with the League of Cooking Sherry Drinkers.Count your
blessings lad! :-)
> > I still think my method would be easier since the AF3 does nothave a
> lot of curvature on the bottom (Compared to Micro) so would not putthe
> the glassed panels under very much tension. In fact it may add to
> stiffness of the bottom. And also it does not have any interiorI agree totally, in cases involving small uncomplicated boats, as
> furnishing that I am aware of. I believe Michalak mentions folding
> camp chairs and an air mattress. (Talk about simplicity!)
explained by you above. I'm just too far along with my OCD to ever
go back to normality :-D
>Frozen
> But your point is well taken and I will add it to my storehouse of
> Lenihan wisdom. I still think you should write a book with easy
> references, lots of anecdotes, pictures and drawings.
> Sort of like a Bud McIntosh version of "How To Build Boats With
> Snot."Ah yes, but if I only had a brain :-)
Keep a good thought Nels!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I stand gently corrected. Hey, at least I remembered that much which
is pretty good for me these days.
Will we be seeing Windermere at the Kingston Messabout this year?
Bryant - almost along the bug and weed infested TSW.
is pretty good for me these days.
Will we be seeing Windermere at the Kingston Messabout this year?
Bryant - almost along the bug and weed infested TSW.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@> wrote:
> >
> > That's probably the best idea, especially if you're not going to
> use
> > conventional butt blocks. In Jim M.s book he does describe a
> method of
> > installing the bottom in stages using butt blocks but I'd still
> butt
> > scarph or whatever beforehand if I could.
> >
> > BTW - I particularly like Peter's method. He's written somewhere
> about
> > using his disk grinder to create a shape to prevent glue
> starvation. I
> > think he developed this for Windermere. I wonder if he'd recommend
> > something similar for his Micro butt scarph?
>
>
> Hi Bryant,
>
> Perhaps your getting two things mixed up.That is, the butt-
> scarf and the not-yet-famous "hollow" method?
> The link David provides to Duckworks shows the butt-scarf idea
> and this link shows the hollow idea you allude to..scroll down a bit
> to "HOLLOW"
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/
>
> Both of these techniques were used for the building of my
> MICRO but only the hollow technique has been needed for WINDERMERE.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan,always a bit surprised when someone remembers
> something I did from a while ago.........:-D
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
I still think my method would be easier since the AF3 does not have a
lot of curvature on the bottom (Compared to Micro) so would not put
the glassed panels under very much tension. In fact it may add to the
stiffness of the bottom. And also it does not have any interior
furnishing that I am aware of. I believe Michalak mentions folding
camp chairs and an air mattress. (Talk about simplicity!)
But your point is well taken and I will add it to my storehouse of
Lenihan wisdom. I still think you should write a book with easy
references, lots of anecdotes, pictures and drawings.
Sort of like a Bud McIntosh version of "How To Build Boats With Frozen
Snot."
Nels
> Not a bad "guess" Nels but not close enough.Your guess sounds tooWell excuse me for associating myself with those people!
> much like the Bolger/SA approach,for their bigger designs,where
> everything right down to the primer is"done on the flat" before
> installing on the bulkheads.
I still think my method would be easier since the AF3 does not have a
lot of curvature on the bottom (Compared to Micro) so would not put
the glassed panels under very much tension. In fact it may add to the
stiffness of the bottom. And also it does not have any interior
furnishing that I am aware of. I believe Michalak mentions folding
camp chairs and an air mattress. (Talk about simplicity!)
But your point is well taken and I will add it to my storehouse of
Lenihan wisdom. I still think you should write a book with easy
references, lots of anecdotes, pictures and drawings.
Sort of like a Bud McIntosh version of "How To Build Boats With Frozen
Snot."
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
killer were it not for the fact that I work 7 on then 7 off.....it
is the "off" part I really really like :-)
much like the Bolger/SA approach,for their bigger designs,where
everything right down to the primer is"done on the flat" before
installing on the bulkheads.They claim is speeds up production. I
claim it puts the fiberglass cloth under needless tension when
one"wraps" the assembled panel around the bulkheads and ruins your
primed surface during the later interior cabinetry/furniture
installations which may/might/does require the driving of countless
screws through the hull panels(and that nice integrity of 'glass and
primer you worked so hard to get smooth) to hold stuff while the
epoxy kicks.Mind you, if one should happen to own deep throated
clamps and I mean deep like 6 to 7 feet deep to get over and down on
these high and wide panel assemblies and/or does not mind setting up
a veritable obstacle coarse with cross braces set up all over the
place to hold the interior framing pieces in place(and there will be
many,many framing pieces on the bigger designs) for you to trip over
all day long, then go for it :-)
I think you can guess which route this bum chose :-)
All the best to ya,you prairre pirate extrordinaire :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,yup,at work,at the nuthouse,at night...........
> Hi David,working on
>
> I expect Peter will clarify this for you but he may be busy
> Windermere. I think he only checks in here when he is at work andhe
> works night shift.Yessirree Nels,ya got me pegged :-) The night shift would be a
killer were it not for the fact that I work 7 on then 7 off.....it
is the "off" part I really really like :-)
> My "guess" is that you butt scarf the bottom plywood sheetstogether
> when they are still flat on the floor and once installed on thehull
> it will all come out fair. Otherwise it may be difficult to holdthe
> filler pieces in place until the glue dries as there will be a bitof
> a bend to them.the
>
> Once they are in place flat on the floor you could even glass the
> bottom then as well. Then flip it over and glass tape the seams on
> inside and seal or paint the interior side. That way the bottomgoes
> on as one continuous curved piece.Not a bad "guess" Nels but not close enough.Your guess sounds too
much like the Bolger/SA approach,for their bigger designs,where
everything right down to the primer is"done on the flat" before
installing on the bulkheads.They claim is speeds up production. I
claim it puts the fiberglass cloth under needless tension when
one"wraps" the assembled panel around the bulkheads and ruins your
primed surface during the later interior cabinetry/furniture
installations which may/might/does require the driving of countless
screws through the hull panels(and that nice integrity of 'glass and
primer you worked so hard to get smooth) to hold stuff while the
epoxy kicks.Mind you, if one should happen to own deep throated
clamps and I mean deep like 6 to 7 feet deep to get over and down on
these high and wide panel assemblies and/or does not mind setting up
a veritable obstacle coarse with cross braces set up all over the
place to hold the interior framing pieces in place(and there will be
many,many framing pieces on the bigger designs) for you to trip over
all day long, then go for it :-)
I think you can guess which route this bum chose :-)
>can
> Hope you have cut out the bottom sections a bit over-size so they
> be trimmed back and rounded on the edges a bit before taping theExcellent advice there! Hope David reads it before it is too late!
> bottom to the sides.
All the best to ya,you prairre pirate extrordinaire :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,yup,at work,at the nuthouse,at night...........
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@...> wrote:
Perhaps your getting two things mixed up.That is, the butt-
scarf and the not-yet-famous "hollow" method?
The link David provides to Duckworks shows the butt-scarf idea
and this link shows the hollow idea you allude to..scroll down a bit
to "HOLLOW"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/
Both of these techniques were used for the building of my
MICRO but only the hollow technique has been needed for WINDERMERE.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,always a bit surprised when someone remembers
something I did from a while ago.........:-D
>use
> That's probably the best idea, especially if you're not going to
> conventional butt blocks. In Jim M.s book he does describe amethod of
> installing the bottom in stages using butt blocks but I'd stillbutt
> scarph or whatever beforehand if I could.about
>
> BTW - I particularly like Peter's method. He's written somewhere
> using his disk grinder to create a shape to prevent gluestarvation. I
> think he developed this for Windermere. I wonder if he'd recommendHi Bryant,
> something similar for his Micro butt scarph?
Perhaps your getting two things mixed up.That is, the butt-
scarf and the not-yet-famous "hollow" method?
The link David provides to Duckworks shows the butt-scarf idea
and this link shows the hollow idea you allude to..scroll down a bit
to "HOLLOW"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/
Both of these techniques were used for the building of my
MICRO but only the hollow technique has been needed for WINDERMERE.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,always a bit surprised when someone remembers
something I did from a while ago.........:-D
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dcassidyus" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
view/708e?b=35
Thanks for the kind words.Regarding your "problem",here is how
I would proceed:
(Presuming that you will be assembling the bottom panels directly
onto the hull sides,instead of attempting a full bottom panel
assembly off the hull prior to installing it..)
If going with say a 6" wide butt-strap, I would temporarily screw,on
edge, a 2X4, athwartship and from bellow,ie;the"inside" of the hull
bottom about 4 to 5 inches back from the butt edge of the
plywood.This will pull the curve out of the plywood and allow you to
even permanently install that panel to the chine logs.
Next,proceed with routing out the 1/4" deep rabbet on the outside
face of the 1/2" bottom panel 3" back from the plywood butt edge.
Next,proceed with installing the following panel and if this too is
bowed or has a curve in it,temporarily screw another 2X4,as
mentioned above,to hold its butt edge fair against the previous
panel.Route out the 1/4" deep rabbet,3" wide.
Once you are satisfied that things are all lined up and fair, mix up
a nice "creamy peanutbutter" batch of epoxy,spread evenly into the
rabbet,lay 1/4" butt-strap on top of this epoxy,and screw the whole
works down snuggly with some temporairy cheap drywall or wood
flooring screws.Scrap up any squeezed out epoxy(and there should be
some or else you haven't put enough epoxy down!) and use this excess
to put a nice little epoxy fillet,from underneath,along the chine
log and hull junction.
Once this is down,grab yourself a beer and relax:-)
The following day,remove all screws along with that or those
temporairy 2X4 cross braces.At this point you can either mix up a
very small batch of epoxy or wait for the next section of panels to
be installed and use some of that squeeze out to fill the now empty
screw holes left over from yesterdays work.I like to use round
toothpicks to drive the thickened epoxy nicely and completely into
and through the screw holes.
Now some may say,"Peter,you crazy drunk,aren't you being a little
too obsessive compulsive about them thar srew holes!?" My only
response will be this; As a card carrying member,in good standing,of
the LBC(Lazy Bums Club)and a confirmed non-swimmer, I wish to never
have to do repair work an anything I build nor do I wish to have it
rot out from under me while out boating.Hence, I don't give the
water any chance of getting its little wet fingers a place to sneak
into and take up residence.But then again, some may be correct and
I'm just a crazy(and lazy!) drunk :-)
Lay a nice 10oz fiberglass cloth over your bottom David and you'll
have a rather trouble free bottom unless you are inclined to shoot
shallow water rapids.....
I noticed you are using non overlayed plywood
(shame,shame,shame....whats-a-the-matter,no MDO available?) so you
may wish to also fiberglass the inside of your hull bottom....why
tempt fate?
Hope this helps and success with your new build!!!
Peter Lenihan, lazy,lazy,lazy,just plain lazy bum, from along the
shores of the steamy,but not so lazy, St.Lawrence................
> The bottom goes on in three pieces, with the plans calling forhttp://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
> butt joints using 1 x 4 in the interior. Not wanting to have such
> large "bumps" in the cabin, my plan is to use "butt scarfs" as
> described by Peter Lenihan here :
>
> it's about halfway down the page --- BTW, I've seen and been aboardpiece
> the Micro he built and describes in this article -- I wish I could
> have bought it when he sold it a few years ago -- a high-quality
> building job and a beautiful boat). I'm going to put the filler
> on the exterior side (which will get covered in fiberglas) with anso
> added piece of fiberglas tape along the seam in the interior.
>
> The problem is that the 1/2-inch ply had a little curvature to it,
> the panels are not meeting. (see a photo of this here:http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only_3/photos/
>
view/708e?b=35
>to do
> Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of a
> "bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need
> to make sure my bottom is fair.Greetings David!,
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> David
Thanks for the kind words.Regarding your "problem",here is how
I would proceed:
(Presuming that you will be assembling the bottom panels directly
onto the hull sides,instead of attempting a full bottom panel
assembly off the hull prior to installing it..)
If going with say a 6" wide butt-strap, I would temporarily screw,on
edge, a 2X4, athwartship and from bellow,ie;the"inside" of the hull
bottom about 4 to 5 inches back from the butt edge of the
plywood.This will pull the curve out of the plywood and allow you to
even permanently install that panel to the chine logs.
Next,proceed with routing out the 1/4" deep rabbet on the outside
face of the 1/2" bottom panel 3" back from the plywood butt edge.
Next,proceed with installing the following panel and if this too is
bowed or has a curve in it,temporarily screw another 2X4,as
mentioned above,to hold its butt edge fair against the previous
panel.Route out the 1/4" deep rabbet,3" wide.
Once you are satisfied that things are all lined up and fair, mix up
a nice "creamy peanutbutter" batch of epoxy,spread evenly into the
rabbet,lay 1/4" butt-strap on top of this epoxy,and screw the whole
works down snuggly with some temporairy cheap drywall or wood
flooring screws.Scrap up any squeezed out epoxy(and there should be
some or else you haven't put enough epoxy down!) and use this excess
to put a nice little epoxy fillet,from underneath,along the chine
log and hull junction.
Once this is down,grab yourself a beer and relax:-)
The following day,remove all screws along with that or those
temporairy 2X4 cross braces.At this point you can either mix up a
very small batch of epoxy or wait for the next section of panels to
be installed and use some of that squeeze out to fill the now empty
screw holes left over from yesterdays work.I like to use round
toothpicks to drive the thickened epoxy nicely and completely into
and through the screw holes.
Now some may say,"Peter,you crazy drunk,aren't you being a little
too obsessive compulsive about them thar srew holes!?" My only
response will be this; As a card carrying member,in good standing,of
the LBC(Lazy Bums Club)and a confirmed non-swimmer, I wish to never
have to do repair work an anything I build nor do I wish to have it
rot out from under me while out boating.Hence, I don't give the
water any chance of getting its little wet fingers a place to sneak
into and take up residence.But then again, some may be correct and
I'm just a crazy(and lazy!) drunk :-)
Lay a nice 10oz fiberglass cloth over your bottom David and you'll
have a rather trouble free bottom unless you are inclined to shoot
shallow water rapids.....
I noticed you are using non overlayed plywood
(shame,shame,shame....whats-a-the-matter,no MDO available?) so you
may wish to also fiberglass the inside of your hull bottom....why
tempt fate?
Hope this helps and success with your new build!!!
Peter Lenihan, lazy,lazy,lazy,just plain lazy bum, from along the
shores of the steamy,but not so lazy, St.Lawrence................
Hey Bruce how do you get the ring nails out of the
floor with out ripping up your sheets of plywood????
I think some sheetrock screws and fender washers with
poly under them would be easer to get out of your
floor or strongback. Ok you have some small holes to
fill.
Also it's just an idea but why not put some 3 to 6oz
cloth and epoxy on the inside of the hull when you are
taping the butt seams? In my mind you would be sealing
the wood and have a hard shell over the plywood for
the paint to stick too.
You are also being to be walking on this area as well.
It is likely you are going to wear the paint off in a
short time if you are going to use the boat much.
Blessings Krissie
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
floor with out ripping up your sheets of plywood????
I think some sheetrock screws and fender washers with
poly under them would be easer to get out of your
floor or strongback. Ok you have some small holes to
fill.
Also it's just an idea but why not put some 3 to 6oz
cloth and epoxy on the inside of the hull when you are
taping the butt seams? In my mind you would be sealing
the wood and have a hard shell over the plywood for
the paint to stick too.
You are also being to be walking on this area as well.
It is likely you are going to wear the paint off in a
short time if you are going to use the boat much.
Blessings Krissie
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
> My favorite trick is to not use weights, but instead____________________________________________________________________________________
> use small silicon
> bronze ringshank nails, driven through the panels
> into the floor or
> strongback. Leave the nails in and just sand them
> smooth.
>
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
One solution is a temp. butt block covered with Visqueen say 3/4" by
full width. Lay it up and clamp to hold then put in temp screws till it
sets. A few holes to putty up but it will make the joint mach up all
the way.
Jon
full width. Lay it up and clamp to hold then put in temp screws till it
sets. A few holes to putty up but it will make the joint mach up all
the way.
Jon
You don't have to do them on the floor. You can put the joint in the center of a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" something covered with a vinyl drop cloth and resting on your molds/frames/floors. Use it as a work surface, clamp the two bottom pieces to it, and when the joint is cured, slide the "table" down to where the second joint is to be made. CD plywood is probably lightest for the table. OSB is really heavy.
A four foot length of 2x4, warped to be lower in the center and clamped to the "table" at the edges will provide plenty of clamping force.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
A four foot length of 2x4, warped to be lower in the center and clamped to the "table" at the edges will provide plenty of clamping force.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: David
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bottom butt joint problem
Thanks for your replies.
I was hoping to avoid trying to lift a 15-1/2 foot slab of pre-scarfed 1/2-inch plywood -- and I was hoping to put in the scarf/butt pieces after the bottom was installed -- but you are most likely right ; this may be the only way to get it all to sit down flat. Still, I'll have to weight down the pieces to get them to lie flat - there is quite a bow in them.
BTW. yes . . . I made sure to have plenty of overlap so I can router down the edges for a nice radius that will take the fiberglas cloth and tape along the chine.
---- nels <arvent@...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dcassidyus" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
>
> > Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of a
> > "bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need to do
> > to make sure my bottom is fair.
> >
> > Anyone have any ideas?
> >
> > David
> >
>
> Hi David,
>
> I expect Peter will clarify this for you but he may be busy working on
> Windermere. I think he only checks in here when he is at work and he
> works night shift.
>
> My "guess" is that you butt scarf the bottom plywood sheets together
> when they are still flat on the floor and once installed on the hull
> it will all come out fair. Otherwise it may be difficult to hold the
> filler pieces in place until the glue dries as there will be a bit of
> a bend to them.
>
> Once they are in place flat on the floor you could even glass the
> bottom then as well. Then flip it over and glass tape the seams on the
> inside and seal or paint the interior side. That way the bottom goes
> on as one continuous curved piece.
>
> Hope you have cut out the bottom sections a bit over-size so they can
> be trimmed back and rounded on the edges a bit before taping the
> bottom to the sides.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Nels
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I was hoping to avoid trying to lift a 15-1/2 foot slab of pre-scarfed 1/2-inch plywood --I have sympathy, having both built a Micro and presently working on a
Topaz, which has 32 foot long 1/2" thick panels. (Patting my own
back) I hefted those 32' side panels single handedly with the help of
ropes and a farm jack.
> Still, I'll have to weight down the pieces to get them to lie flat - there is quite a bow in them.My favorite trick is to not use weights, but instead use small silicon
bronze ringshank nails, driven through the panels into the floor or
strongback. Leave the nails in and just sand them smooth.
Thanks for your replies.
I was hoping to avoid trying to lift a 15-1/2 foot slab of pre-scarfed 1/2-inch plywood -- and I was hoping to put in the scarf/butt pieces after the bottom was installed -- but you are most likely right ; this may be the only way to get it all to sit down flat. Still, I'll have to weight down the pieces to get them to lie flat - there is quite a bow in them.
BTW. yes . . . I made sure to have plenty of overlap so I can router down the edges for a nice radius that will take the fiberglas cloth and tape along the chine.
---- nels <arvent@...> wrote:
I was hoping to avoid trying to lift a 15-1/2 foot slab of pre-scarfed 1/2-inch plywood -- and I was hoping to put in the scarf/butt pieces after the bottom was installed -- but you are most likely right ; this may be the only way to get it all to sit down flat. Still, I'll have to weight down the pieces to get them to lie flat - there is quite a bow in them.
BTW. yes . . . I made sure to have plenty of overlap so I can router down the edges for a nice radius that will take the fiberglas cloth and tape along the chine.
---- nels <arvent@...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dcassidyus" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
>
> > Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of a
> > "bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need to do
> > to make sure my bottom is fair.
> >
> > Anyone have any ideas?
> >
> > David
> >
>
> Hi David,
>
> I expect Peter will clarify this for you but he may be busy working on
> Windermere. I think he only checks in here when he is at work and he
> works night shift.
>
> My "guess" is that you butt scarf the bottom plywood sheets together
> when they are still flat on the floor and once installed on the hull
> it will all come out fair. Otherwise it may be difficult to hold the
> filler pieces in place until the glue dries as there will be a bit of
> a bend to them.
>
> Once they are in place flat on the floor you could even glass the
> bottom then as well. Then flip it over and glass tape the seams on the
> inside and seal or paint the interior side. That way the bottom goes
> on as one continuous curved piece.
>
> Hope you have cut out the bottom sections a bit over-size so they can
> be trimmed back and rounded on the edges a bit before taping the
> bottom to the sides.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Nels
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
That's probably the best idea, especially if you're not going to use
conventional butt blocks. In Jim M.s book he does describe a method of
installing the bottom in stages using butt blocks but I'd still butt
scarph or whatever beforehand if I could.
BTW - I particularly like Peter's method. He's written somewhere about
using his disk grinder to create a shape to prevent glue starvation. I
think he developed this for Windermere. I wonder if he'd recommend
something similar for his Micro butt scarph?
Bryant
conventional butt blocks. In Jim M.s book he does describe a method of
installing the bottom in stages using butt blocks but I'd still butt
scarph or whatever beforehand if I could.
BTW - I particularly like Peter's method. He's written somewhere about
using his disk grinder to create a shape to prevent glue starvation. I
think he developed this for Windermere. I wonder if he'd recommend
something similar for his Micro butt scarph?
Bryant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> Scarf first and then bend?
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dcassidyus
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 1:12 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Bottom butt joint problem
>
>
> I cut and fit the bottom to my Jim Michalak-designed AF3 last night,
> but (no pun intended) there's a possible problem I'm hoping the
> collective wisdom here can help me with.
>
> The bottom goes on in three pieces, with the plans calling for
> butt joints using 1 x 4 in the interior. Not wanting to have such
> large "bumps" in the cabin, my plan is to use "butt scarfs" as
> described by Peter Lenihan here :
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
> it's about halfway down the page --- BTW, I've seen and been aboard
> the Micro he built and describes in this article -- I wish I could
> have bought it when he sold it a few years ago -- a high-quality
> building job and a beautiful boat). I'm going to put the filler piece
> on the exterior side (which will get covered in fiberglas) with an
> added piece of fiberglas tape along the seam in the interior.
>
> The problem is that the 1/2-inch ply had a little curvature to it, so
> the panels are not meeting. (see a photo of this here:
>
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only_3/photos/view/708e?b=35
>
> Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of a
> "bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need to do
> to make sure my bottom is fair.
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dcassidyus" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
I expect Peter will clarify this for you but he may be busy working on
Windermere. I think he only checks in here when he is at work and he
works night shift.
My "guess" is that you butt scarf the bottom plywood sheets together
when they are still flat on the floor and once installed on the hull
it will all come out fair. Otherwise it may be difficult to hold the
filler pieces in place until the glue dries as there will be a bit of
a bend to them.
Once they are in place flat on the floor you could even glass the
bottom then as well. Then flip it over and glass tape the seams on the
inside and seal or paint the interior side. That way the bottom goes
on as one continuous curved piece.
Hope you have cut out the bottom sections a bit over-size so they can
be trimmed back and rounded on the edges a bit before taping the
bottom to the sides.
Best of luck,
Nels
Nels
> Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of aHi David,
> "bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need to do
> to make sure my bottom is fair.
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> David
>
I expect Peter will clarify this for you but he may be busy working on
Windermere. I think he only checks in here when he is at work and he
works night shift.
My "guess" is that you butt scarf the bottom plywood sheets together
when they are still flat on the floor and once installed on the hull
it will all come out fair. Otherwise it may be difficult to hold the
filler pieces in place until the glue dries as there will be a bit of
a bend to them.
Once they are in place flat on the floor you could even glass the
bottom then as well. Then flip it over and glass tape the seams on the
inside and seal or paint the interior side. That way the bottom goes
on as one continuous curved piece.
Hope you have cut out the bottom sections a bit over-size so they can
be trimmed back and rounded on the edges a bit before taping the
bottom to the sides.
Best of luck,
Nels
Nels
Scarf first and then bend?
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: dcassidyus
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 1:12 PM
Subject: [bolger] Bottom butt joint problem
I cut and fit the bottom to my Jim Michalak-designed AF3 last night,
but (no pun intended) there's a possible problem I'm hoping the
collective wisdom here can help me with.
The bottom goes on in three pieces, with the plans calling for
butt joints using 1 x 4 in the interior. Not wanting to have such
large "bumps" in the cabin, my plan is to use "butt scarfs" as
described by Peter Lenihan here :
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
it's about halfway down the page --- BTW, I've seen and been aboard
the Micro he built and describes in this article -- I wish I could
have bought it when he sold it a few years ago -- a high-quality
building job and a beautiful boat). I'm going to put the filler piece
on the exterior side (which will get covered in fiberglas) with an
added piece of fiberglas tape along the seam in the interior.
The problem is that the 1/2-inch ply had a little curvature to it, so
the panels are not meeting. (see a photo of this here:
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only_3/photos/view/708e?b=35
Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of a
"bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need to do
to make sure my bottom is fair.
Anyone have any ideas?
David
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I cut and fit the bottom to my Jim Michalak-designed AF3 last night,
but (no pun intended) there's a possible problem I'm hoping the
collective wisdom here can help me with.
The bottom goes on in three pieces, with the plans calling for
butt joints using 1 x 4 in the interior. Not wanting to have such
large "bumps" in the cabin, my plan is to use "butt scarfs" as
described by Peter Lenihan here :
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
it's about halfway down the page --- BTW, I've seen and been aboard
the Micro he built and describes in this article -- I wish I could
have bought it when he sold it a few years ago -- a high-quality
building job and a beautiful boat). I'm going to put the filler piece
on the exterior side (which will get covered in fiberglas) with an
added piece of fiberglas tape along the seam in the interior.
The problem is that the 1/2-inch ply had a little curvature to it, so
the panels are not meeting. (see a photo of this here:
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only_3/photos/view/708e?b=35
Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of a
"bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need to do
to make sure my bottom is fair.
Anyone have any ideas?
David
but (no pun intended) there's a possible problem I'm hoping the
collective wisdom here can help me with.
The bottom goes on in three pieces, with the plans calling for
butt joints using 1 x 4 in the interior. Not wanting to have such
large "bumps" in the cabin, my plan is to use "butt scarfs" as
described by Peter Lenihan here :
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
it's about halfway down the page --- BTW, I've seen and been aboard
the Micro he built and describes in this article -- I wish I could
have bought it when he sold it a few years ago -- a high-quality
building job and a beautiful boat). I'm going to put the filler piece
on the exterior side (which will get covered in fiberglas) with an
added piece of fiberglas tape along the seam in the interior.
The problem is that the 1/2-inch ply had a little curvature to it, so
the panels are not meeting. (see a photo of this here:
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only_3/photos/view/708e?b=35
Do you think the butt scarf filler piece will provide enough of a
"bridge" to take care of this, or is there something else I need to do
to make sure my bottom is fair.
Anyone have any ideas?
David