Re: [bolger] Small Plywood Diesel Cruiser
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Jim Pope wrote:
that the culprit is 'elm', the email program I have been using. It
is what they call broken and is no longer supported. I'll have
to get used to 'pine'.
So, Y2K didn't break 'elm', but last weekend did, Midsummer, a national
3-day holiday with 15 killed in boating accidents.
Sakari Aaltonen
> By the way, Sakari, your last few posts have appeared on my machine with aI inquired about this at the local computer center and it appears
> posting date of 12/31/69 7:00pm. Aint computers grand?
that the culprit is 'elm', the email program I have been using. It
is what they call broken and is no longer supported. I'll have
to get used to 'pine'.
So, Y2K didn't break 'elm', but last weekend did, Midsummer, a national
3-day holiday with 15 killed in boating accidents.
Sakari Aaltonen
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
the freeboard forward is a little bit lower than I would like. A later
version of the same project shows the fore cabin arranged a little
differently, with a double berth to port and the head under. In the later
version, the wheel is amidships. He roughed in a sailing rig, mostly, I
think, as a steadying sail, but also to serve as an emergency get-home rig.
The starboard panel of the wheelhouse opens and is hinged so as to lay
against the middle panel.. The galley is now to stbd and smaller glass areas
all around. In my specification for the boat I asked that he completely
separate the sleeping accommodation to forward and leave the aft for the
boat's management underway. I envisaged sailing single handed or with only
one other person.
With respect to the pointy bow etc. PCB's letter to me accompanying the
cartoon explained as follows:
"I'm not sure I made myself clear about the effect of sheet plywood on the
proportions of a boat. A plywood panel's shape is controlled by the curves of
its edges; if there's a hard place in one edge, such as a quick turn to the
forefoot, the quick turn will propagate itself all the way across the sheet;
most pronounced near the source, of course. If a sheet plywood boat is to be
fair, the lines of the keel, chine, and sheer must all be fair sweeps their
full length and in all planes. Hence the cut-back forefoot here and resulting
long bow overhang (waterline 25'). That's also the reason she is so wide on
deck. The bottom can be gotten out of four-foot-wide sheets on each side. It
would be possible to pinch in the deck amidships as is often done, but it
would be less economical of both materials and labor than the line shown, and
from some angles would show an unfair curve, I think the shape shown will be
pleasing from all angles and in all lights, especially as the chine knuckle
will disappear three or four feet abaft the stem."
"After all I decided to show the house set in from the deck edge. Main reason
for this was to keep the house side straight for simplicity in the windows
construction: this would only be important if the windows had to open, but I
think some of them should, in August; and in any case I think the proportions
will look better. The house is still wide enough to deliver some useful
reserve buoyancy."
"The three step house seems to me to give the best combination of view and
headroom, and doesn't add much of anything to cost since each step replaces a
beam and a butt. Otherwise I've kept exactly to what I understood you to have
in mind unless you count showing the coal range (like mine), which is a great
comfort spring and fall and tolerable on a hot day in a cabin as well
ventilated as this one can be."
"The Westerbeke 27 indicated is just used as about the biggest I figured
you'd want to make space for. I looked at the Yanmar 2GMF (15 h.p.) among
others; I should say that would be about the smallest worth considering. The
wide stern with vented trim tabs will be necessary for anything above about
seven knots and not very inefficient down to five knots."
Phil Bolger's comments describe the boat that I wanted. She's not to
everyone's taste I know. She is, however quite buildable and would make a
nice seaworthy little packet.
Jim
By the way, Sakari, your last few posts have appeared on my machine with a
posting date of 12/31/69 7:00pm. Aint computers grand?
>Your comments are correct. That's the way I asked him to do it. I agree that
>
> The boat looks a bit like Microtrawler with about 3m (10') of bow
> attached. However, this bow, rather pointy, looks incongruous to me;
> too dashing by half for a low-speed cruiser. Another thing, the fore-
> deck is very low; I don't see why. The sleeping compartment appears
> to be separate from the rest of the interior--thus, you would have to
> step outside to enter it. Odd; with a higher foredeck, this might not
> be necessary. Now, if you interchanged the positions of the "bridge"
> and the engine and cut off the bow at the waterline...
>
> Sakari Aaltonen
>
> Hi Sakari,
the freeboard forward is a little bit lower than I would like. A later
version of the same project shows the fore cabin arranged a little
differently, with a double berth to port and the head under. In the later
version, the wheel is amidships. He roughed in a sailing rig, mostly, I
think, as a steadying sail, but also to serve as an emergency get-home rig.
The starboard panel of the wheelhouse opens and is hinged so as to lay
against the middle panel.. The galley is now to stbd and smaller glass areas
all around. In my specification for the boat I asked that he completely
separate the sleeping accommodation to forward and leave the aft for the
boat's management underway. I envisaged sailing single handed or with only
one other person.
With respect to the pointy bow etc. PCB's letter to me accompanying the
cartoon explained as follows:
"I'm not sure I made myself clear about the effect of sheet plywood on the
proportions of a boat. A plywood panel's shape is controlled by the curves of
its edges; if there's a hard place in one edge, such as a quick turn to the
forefoot, the quick turn will propagate itself all the way across the sheet;
most pronounced near the source, of course. If a sheet plywood boat is to be
fair, the lines of the keel, chine, and sheer must all be fair sweeps their
full length and in all planes. Hence the cut-back forefoot here and resulting
long bow overhang (waterline 25'). That's also the reason she is so wide on
deck. The bottom can be gotten out of four-foot-wide sheets on each side. It
would be possible to pinch in the deck amidships as is often done, but it
would be less economical of both materials and labor than the line shown, and
from some angles would show an unfair curve, I think the shape shown will be
pleasing from all angles and in all lights, especially as the chine knuckle
will disappear three or four feet abaft the stem."
"After all I decided to show the house set in from the deck edge. Main reason
for this was to keep the house side straight for simplicity in the windows
construction: this would only be important if the windows had to open, but I
think some of them should, in August; and in any case I think the proportions
will look better. The house is still wide enough to deliver some useful
reserve buoyancy."
"The three step house seems to me to give the best combination of view and
headroom, and doesn't add much of anything to cost since each step replaces a
beam and a butt. Otherwise I've kept exactly to what I understood you to have
in mind unless you count showing the coal range (like mine), which is a great
comfort spring and fall and tolerable on a hot day in a cabin as well
ventilated as this one can be."
"The Westerbeke 27 indicated is just used as about the biggest I figured
you'd want to make space for. I looked at the Yanmar 2GMF (15 h.p.) among
others; I should say that would be about the smallest worth considering. The
wide stern with vented trim tabs will be necessary for anything above about
seven knots and not very inefficient down to five knots."
Phil Bolger's comments describe the boat that I wanted. She's not to
everyone's taste I know. She is, however quite buildable and would make a
nice seaworthy little packet.
Jim
By the way, Sakari, your last few posts have appeared on my machine with a
posting date of 12/31/69 7:00pm. Aint computers grand?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your Credit Report FREE and Online at ConsumerInfo.Com!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5784/13/_/3457/_/961958982/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules:
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
Sakari,
Oh, yes. Badger is a Philip C. Bolger boat, and taken to
fully buildable, 5 sheets of plans available stage.
In his inimitable style he goes on to say, "This boat meets
the letter of the requirement," so of course there is a
certain amount of, "Bad news." But 1000 mile range w/ a 9.9
Yanmar at 12 nautical miles/ gallon; good sprawl space for
two; rough water use, "Not prohibited;" easy trailoring; and
Instant Boat construction makes a nice package, even if a
little tender. The standing headroom is constrained in width
and breadth.
I work mostly across the weekend. If no one in the group has
both "Boat Journal," May, 1991 and a scanner in order to
post it right away, I'll make a pdf. next week for you and,
without objection, put it in the files.
Mark
P.S. I'm now convinced I just can't live without a scanner
of my own.
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
Oh, yes. Badger is a Philip C. Bolger boat, and taken to
fully buildable, 5 sheets of plans available stage.
In his inimitable style he goes on to say, "This boat meets
the letter of the requirement," so of course there is a
certain amount of, "Bad news." But 1000 mile range w/ a 9.9
Yanmar at 12 nautical miles/ gallon; good sprawl space for
two; rough water use, "Not prohibited;" easy trailoring; and
Instant Boat construction makes a nice package, even if a
little tender. The standing headroom is constrained in width
and breadth.
I work mostly across the weekend. If no one in the group has
both "Boat Journal," May, 1991 and a scanner in order to
post it right away, I'll make a pdf. next week for you and,
without objection, put it in the files.
Mark
P.S. I'm now convinced I just can't live without a scanner
of my own.
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
>
>You mean this is a Bolger design?
> I don't care about trailerability, but standing headroom
> sounds good.
Mark Albanese wrote
I don't care about trailerability, but standing headroom
sounds good.
Sakari Aaltonen
> The article began:No it's not a waste of time. You mean this is a Bolger design?
>
> "This general lecture is for letter writers who want a
> trailerable, 4-berth power cruiser with standing headroom
> and an enclosed toilet room. I doubt they'd get much trailer
> use out of the boats they're envisioning. Most of the
> concepts would be still-born when boat and trailer cost was
> worked out in dollars per hour of use.
>
> Let me know if it's a waste of time, or I can have more for you.
I don't care about trailerability, but standing headroom
sounds good.
Sakari Aaltonen
I don't think the boat I'll suggest here is the one from
BWAOM. The boat in the drawing at your site has a very
similar profile but looks to me as if it has a lobsterboat
built down keel, or, more probably, the box keel
construction. Also the suggestion that it might not be
suitable for amateur builders, spells a difference. This one
is for taped seams.
It first appeared in Small Boat Journal as that magazine was
making the transition to Gas Hog Rag as "A Diesel Cruiser
You Could Love." Named 'Badger' It's 19' 4" x 6' 6" x 2' 1"
x 2700# w/ crew of four. It has high, plumb sides, a Vee
bottom, and a kind of conning tower house.
The article began:
"This general lecture is for letter writers who want a
trailerable, 4-berth power cruiser with standing headroom
and an enclosed toilet room. I doubt they'd get much trailer
use out of the boats they're envisioning. Most of the
concepts would be still-born when boat and trailer cost was
worked out in dollars per hour of use.
Let me know if it's a waste of time, or I can have more for you.
BTW I liked the looks of your drawing immensely.
Mark
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
BWAOM. The boat in the drawing at your site has a very
similar profile but looks to me as if it has a lobsterboat
built down keel, or, more probably, the box keel
construction. Also the suggestion that it might not be
suitable for amateur builders, spells a difference. This one
is for taped seams.
It first appeared in Small Boat Journal as that magazine was
making the transition to Gas Hog Rag as "A Diesel Cruiser
You Could Love." Named 'Badger' It's 19' 4" x 6' 6" x 2' 1"
x 2700# w/ crew of four. It has high, plumb sides, a Vee
bottom, and a kind of conning tower house.
The article began:
"This general lecture is for letter writers who want a
trailerable, 4-berth power cruiser with standing headroom
and an enclosed toilet room. I doubt they'd get much trailer
use out of the boats they're envisioning. Most of the
concepts would be still-born when boat and trailer cost was
worked out in dollars per hour of use.
Let me know if it's a waste of time, or I can have more for you.
BTW I liked the looks of your drawing immensely.
Mark
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
>
> While building an Oldshoe, I have become haunted by the idea
> of a small plywood diesel cruiser. Bolger has one in BwaOM,
> p. 293, but there is a note in the text that the builder
> was a professional such that the construction might not be
> suitable for an amateur (such as myself). Also, I find the
> house very ugly and went as far as to redraw it (if anyone is
> interested, seehttp://www.hut.fi/~sakaria/diesel.gif.)
>
> Would anyone know of other designs? Bolger or non-Bolger?
> I like Microtrawler and Retriever, but they both seem to be
> meant to be powered by (gasoline) outboards. I *think* this
> is true for Retriever; I know little about it.
>
> I know Michael Kasten designs cute small cruisers, but they are
> built with aluminium. George Buehler's designs are nice, but
> *large*--6 to 7.5 meters (20' to 25') is my comfortable size.
> There is SurfScoter by Sam Devlin, but I'm really looking for
> a displacement hull...
>
> Thank you,
> Sakari Aaltonen
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
> price. New FREE service!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/13/_/3457/_/961786867/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules:
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
){kind=link}
Second the motion on checking Sam Devlin's web site. Somewhere in an
article about his Surf Scoter (not scooter) someone was fitting a small
diesel. Suggest Ken Hankinson'shttp://www.boatdesigns.com/boatdesigns.com.
I bought the Surf Scoter study plans from him. If all else fails me when
tring to locate something I go tohttp://www.boat-links.com/boatlink.html.
Enjoy.
Jim Chamberlin
article about his Surf Scoter (not scooter) someone was fitting a small
diesel. Suggest Ken Hankinson'shttp://www.boatdesigns.com/boatdesigns.com.
I bought the Surf Scoter study plans from him. If all else fails me when
tring to locate something I go tohttp://www.boat-links.com/boatlink.html.
Enjoy.
Jim Chamberlin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Orr, Jamie [mailto:jorr@...]
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 12:12 PM
> To: 'bolger@egroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Small Plywood Diesel Cruiser
>
>
> Take a look at Stambaugh's Redwing 21 or 23. Contact the designer through
> cmdboats.com/catalog.htm
> The 21 and 23 aren't shown, but you can order a catalogue or contact by
> e-mail. These are flatbottomed oversized skiffs that look like great
> cruisers for relatively sheltered waters. Construction is framed
> plywood --
> use epoxy or not as you like. If you like the of idea stitch and
> glue, have
> a look at Devlin's designs at www.devlinboat.com
>
> Like you, dreaming about the next one....
> Jamie Orr
>
> (PS Or contact PCB for an alternative design)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sakari Aaltonen [mailto:sakaria@...]
> Sent: None
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Small Plywood Diesel Cruiser
>
>
> While building an Oldshoe, I have become haunted by the idea
> of a small plywood diesel cruiser. Bolger has one in BwaOM,
> p. 293, but there is a note in the text that the builder
> was a professional such that the construction might not be
> suitable for an amateur (such as myself). Also, I find the
> house very ugly and went as far as to redraw it (if anyone is
> interested, seehttp://www.hut.fi/~sakaria/diesel.gif.)
>
> Would anyone know of other designs? Bolger or non-Bolger?
> I like Microtrawler and Retriever, but they both seem to be
> meant to be powered by (gasoline) outboards. I *think* this
> is true for Retriever; I know little about it.
>
> I know Michael Kasten designs cute small cruisers, but they are
> built with aluminium. George Buehler's designs are nice, but
> *large*--6 to 7.5 meters (20' to 25') is my comfortable size.
> There is SurfScoter by Sam Devlin, but I'm really looking for
> a displacement hull...
>
>
> Thank you,
> Sakari Aaltonen
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
> price. New FREE service!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/13/_/3457/_/961786867/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules:
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5197/13/_/3457/_/961787629/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules:
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
Sakari:
You might consider Arch Davis' Jack Tar:
http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis_jacktar.html
Chuck
You might consider Arch Davis' Jack Tar:
http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis_jacktar.html
Chuck
> While building an Oldshoe, I have become haunted by the idea
> of a small plywood diesel cruiser. Bolger has one in BwaOM,
> p. 293, but there is a note in the text that the builder
> was a professional such that the construction might not be
> suitable for an amateur (such as myself). Also, I find the
> house very ugly and went as far as to redraw it (if anyone is
> interested, seehttp://www.hut.fi/~sakaria/diesel.gif.)
>
> Would anyone know of other designs? Bolger or non-Bolger?
> I like Microtrawler and Retriever, but they both seem to be
> meant to be powered by (gasoline) outboards. I *think* this
> is true for Retriever; I know little about it.
>
> I know Michael Kasten designs cute small cruisers, but they are
> built with aluminium. George Buehler's designs are nice, but
> *large*--6 to 7.5 meters (20' to 25') is my comfortable size.
> There is SurfScoter by Sam Devlin, but I'm really looking for
> a displacement hull...
>
>
> Thank you,
> Sakari Aaltonen
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
> price. New FREE service!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/13/_/3457/_/961786867/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules:
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
>
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Orr, Jamie wrote:
get to diesel. but I agree--it's a great looking boat.
> Take a look at Stambaugh's Redwing 21 or 23. Contact the designer throughActually, if I'm not mistakem you need to go up to the Redwing 28 to
> cmdboats.com/catalog.htm
get to diesel. but I agree--it's a great looking boat.
Bolger had one in MIB a few months ago. It was a 30 footer that was
capable of crossing the Atlantic and back on one filling of fuel.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
capable of crossing the Atlantic and back on one filling of fuel.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
----- Original Message -----
From: "David" <dcassidy@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Small Plywood Diesel Cruiser
> I've always liked Devlin's cruisers.
>
>http://www.devlinboat.com/
>
> Dipper, Surf Scooter, Black Crown, Topknot & Czarrina might be worth a
look.
>
> David
>
> Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
>
> > While building an Oldshoe, I have become haunted by the idea
> > of a small plywood diesel cruiser. <snip>
>
> > Would anyone know of other designs? Bolger or non-Bolger?
> > <snip>
>
> > Thank you,
> > Sakari Aaltonen
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Porsche Boxter. You and a friend. Nine dream days from
> Napa Valley to Beverly Hills. Provided by CarsDirect.com.
> Click to enter.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/4882/13/_/3457/_/961790025/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules:
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
I've always liked Devlin's cruisers.
http://www.devlinboat.com/
Dipper, Surf Scooter, Black Crown, Topknot & Czarrina might be worth a look.
David
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
http://www.devlinboat.com/
Dipper, Surf Scooter, Black Crown, Topknot & Czarrina might be worth a look.
David
Sakari Aaltonen wrote:
> While building an Oldshoe, I have become haunted by the idea
> of a small plywood diesel cruiser. <snip>
> Would anyone know of other designs? Bolger or non-Bolger?
> <snip>
> Thank you,
> Sakari Aaltonen
Take a look at Stambaugh's Redwing 21 or 23. Contact the designer through
cmdboats.com/catalog.htm
The 21 and 23 aren't shown, but you can order a catalogue or contact by
e-mail. These are flatbottomed oversized skiffs that look like great
cruisers for relatively sheltered waters. Construction is framed plywood --
use epoxy or not as you like. If you like the of idea stitch and glue, have
a look at Devlin's designs at www.devlinboat.com
Like you, dreaming about the next one....
Jamie Orr
(PS Or contact PCB for an alternative design)
-----Original Message-----
From: Sakari Aaltonen [mailto:sakaria@...]
Sent: None
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Small Plywood Diesel Cruiser
While building an Oldshoe, I have become haunted by the idea
of a small plywood diesel cruiser. Bolger has one in BwaOM,
p. 293, but there is a note in the text that the builder
was a professional such that the construction might not be
suitable for an amateur (such as myself). Also, I find the
house very ugly and went as far as to redraw it (if anyone is
interested, seehttp://www.hut.fi/~sakaria/diesel.gif.)
Would anyone know of other designs? Bolger or non-Bolger?
I like Microtrawler and Retriever, but they both seem to be
meant to be powered by (gasoline) outboards. I *think* this
is true for Retriever; I know little about it.
I know Michael Kasten designs cute small cruisers, but they are
built with aluminium. George Buehler's designs are nice, but
*large*--6 to 7.5 meters (20' to 25') is my comfortable size.
There is SurfScoter by Sam Devlin, but I'm really looking for
a displacement hull...
Thank you,
Sakari Aaltonen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
price. New FREE service!
http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/13/_/3457/_/961786867/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolger rules:
- no cursing
- stay on topic
- use punctuation
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
- add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
cmdboats.com/catalog.htm
The 21 and 23 aren't shown, but you can order a catalogue or contact by
e-mail. These are flatbottomed oversized skiffs that look like great
cruisers for relatively sheltered waters. Construction is framed plywood --
use epoxy or not as you like. If you like the of idea stitch and glue, have
a look at Devlin's designs at www.devlinboat.com
Like you, dreaming about the next one....
Jamie Orr
(PS Or contact PCB for an alternative design)
-----Original Message-----
From: Sakari Aaltonen [mailto:sakaria@...]
Sent: None
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Small Plywood Diesel Cruiser
While building an Oldshoe, I have become haunted by the idea
of a small plywood diesel cruiser. Bolger has one in BwaOM,
p. 293, but there is a note in the text that the builder
was a professional such that the construction might not be
suitable for an amateur (such as myself). Also, I find the
house very ugly and went as far as to redraw it (if anyone is
interested, seehttp://www.hut.fi/~sakaria/diesel.gif.)
Would anyone know of other designs? Bolger or non-Bolger?
I like Microtrawler and Retriever, but they both seem to be
meant to be powered by (gasoline) outboards. I *think* this
is true for Retriever; I know little about it.
I know Michael Kasten designs cute small cruisers, but they are
built with aluminium. George Buehler's designs are nice, but
*large*--6 to 7.5 meters (20' to 25') is my comfortable size.
There is SurfScoter by Sam Devlin, but I'm really looking for
a displacement hull...
Thank you,
Sakari Aaltonen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
price. New FREE service!
http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/13/_/3457/_/961786867/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolger rules:
- no cursing
- stay on topic
- use punctuation
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
- add content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.