Re: Bolger River Cruisers
I have seen a fast motor sailer in person, it was set up as a power
cruiser only. I thought it was very roomy for such a small boat, I
would recommend looking into that design.
Phil
cruiser only. I thought it was very roomy for such a small boat, I
would recommend looking into that design.
Phil
Hi Don-
I know it's not a state name but have you checked out Bolgers' "Champlain". I think it would fit into what your looking for.
Aloha - Jack Spoering- Ft Lauderdale, Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know it's not a state name but have you checked out Bolgers' "Champlain". I think it would fit into what your looking for.
Aloha - Jack Spoering- Ft Lauderdale, Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You might want to check Michael Storers venice River Boat.
Its in the 'plans' section on www.duckworksmagazine.com.
JohnT
Its in the 'plans' section on www.duckworksmagazine.com.
JohnT
----- Original Message -----
From: donschultz8275
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 11:15 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "idahogetaway" <idahogetaway@...> wrote:
>
> I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river
cruisers on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really
like idaho and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr.
Bolger ever design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I
have never seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be
greatly appreciated.
>
IMO Retriever may suit you. It is a 22' Microtrawler, intended for
90+hp outboard. Could use less hp and be build lighter. Someone
already suggested Fast Motor Sailer. IMO a very good choice. Also
22'and could be build for lower power. I've always liked Minnesota,
intended for 70+hp and strongly built like the 50' Wyoming.
IMO Idaho would be fun as a Super Sneakeasy gentlemen's boat with just
a bimini and a faux bright finish.
But why not shorten it to what you need for building/storage/trailer?
Scantlings would be beefy at the shorter length. You'd lose a little
spspeed. The long paralel sides make the alteration easy, and low
risk.
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "idahogetaway" <idahogetaway@...> wrote:
like idaho and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr.
Bolger ever design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I
have never seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be
greatly appreciated.
90+hp outboard. Could use less hp and be build lighter. Someone
already suggested Fast Motor Sailer. IMO a very good choice. Also
22'and could be build for lower power. I've always liked Minnesota,
intended for 70+hp and strongly built like the 50' Wyoming.
IMO Idaho would be fun as a Super Sneakeasy gentlemen's boat with just
a bimini and a faux bright finish.
But why not shorten it to what you need for building/storage/trailer?
Scantlings would be beefy at the shorter length. You'd lose a little
spspeed. The long paralel sides make the alteration easy, and low
risk.
>cruisers on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really
> I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river
like idaho and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr.
Bolger ever design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I
have never seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be
greatly appreciated.
>IMO Retriever may suit you. It is a 22' Microtrawler, intended for
90+hp outboard. Could use less hp and be build lighter. Someone
already suggested Fast Motor Sailer. IMO a very good choice. Also
22'and could be build for lower power. I've always liked Minnesota,
intended for 70+hp and strongly built like the 50' Wyoming.
IMO Idaho would be fun as a Super Sneakeasy gentlemen's boat with just
a bimini and a faux bright finish.
But why not shorten it to what you need for building/storage/trailer?
Scantlings would be beefy at the shorter length. You'd lose a little
spspeed. The long paralel sides make the alteration easy, and low
risk.
Yes, I know that you have some very serious and dangerous waters
there. Have not experianced it yet...
Ive been crossing the bar from age 10. We used to do it in a 16 foot.
Got trapped on the outside once. The Coast Guard was not bothering
with tows. Just picking up the people and leaving the boats adrift.
We can across in non breaking 25 footers as we were told by a
surprized Coast Guardsman latter...
My grandfather was the skipper on that trip. Perfect day that went
wrong really fast by 1pm.
Only good thing was the 40 to 50 lb Kings we had limits on. And just
about dumped them over board.
I am heading down in about a week for the Chinook and Coho. I keep
watching these videos just to keep my brain ready for the situations.
There are a few other good Columbia River Bar youtubes worth watching
also.
there. Have not experianced it yet...
Ive been crossing the bar from age 10. We used to do it in a 16 foot.
Got trapped on the outside once. The Coast Guard was not bothering
with tows. Just picking up the people and leaving the boats adrift.
We can across in non breaking 25 footers as we were told by a
surprized Coast Guardsman latter...
My grandfather was the skipper on that trip. Perfect day that went
wrong really fast by 1pm.
Only good thing was the 40 to 50 lb Kings we had limits on. And just
about dumped them over board.
I am heading down in about a week for the Chinook and Coho. I keep
watching these videos just to keep my brain ready for the situations.
There are a few other good Columbia River Bar youtubes worth watching
also.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Mike the first part of the Video would be a very nice day out on
the fishing grounds in SE Alaska. I have also fished in the same size
swells that you see at the bar only thing is we are in deep water! So
you don't have the brakers on top but you still have the hight of the
swell.
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
Here is a YouTube link showing the avg.conditions I deal with on the
> Columbia River Bar. I seldom venture out in conditions worse then
> those in the first part of this video. Imagine this is a river 1,600
> miles long with a running current slaming into an incomming tide. The
> worse conditions are when there is a minus tide of 2 or 3 feet and
> then a 8 plus. These conditions over a shalow bar make it what is
> called the Grave Yard of the Pacific.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knz51leymyc
>
> Fortunatly the Gloucester has a hull much like this Coast Guard
> cutter.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Gilbert <gilberj55@> wrote:
> >
> > Check your facts first......... force 9 is 41 to 47 knots, (47 to
> 54 mph) and 30 foot wave are consitant with force 9 given sufficient
> fetch and time.
> >
> > 80 mph winds are considered hurricane force 12
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Chris Crandall <crandall@>
> > To: No Reply <notify-dg-bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> > Cc:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:18:15 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
> >
> > > Posted by: "derbyrm" derbyrm@insightbb. com derbyrm
> > > Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))
> > >
> > > The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot
> waves."
> >
> > Force 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves (20-23 feet waves)
> with
> > dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with considerable spray.
> >
> > That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but the boat does seem
> > seaworthy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
> junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at
>http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone
who knows.
> Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
waves in photos and vid can be very misleading. I don't think they look like 30 ft waves either. It is rough and not likely suitable for boarding pilots. When a ship is picking up a pilot you use the wall side to make a lee. It is not fool-proof or guaranteed. The pilot boat needs to be a stable enough platform for the pilot to step from the boat to the ladder on the ship without fearing his(her) legs will be crushed as the boat and ship move separately. It is a complicated transfer with no little danger, molified somewhat by the experience and nimbleness of the pilot. Cork has notoriously rough approaches, one of the most dangerous in the world. the pilot boat and crew and pilots must be as capable as any in the world.
----- Original Message ----
From: Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 12:16:26 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
It turns out that that boat was not in solely
wind-driven waves--the pictures were taken of waves
forming over the Cork Harbor bar in Ireland. I forget
the name of the boat builder, but if you google the
name at the beginning of the clip you will find their
website, and they have lots of impressive stills and
videos of their boats out over that bar. Sam
--- Chris Crandall <crandall@ku. edu> wrote:
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----- Original Message ----
From: Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 12:16:26 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
It turns out that that boat was not in solely
wind-driven waves--the pictures were taken of waves
forming over the Cork Harbor bar in Ireland. I forget
the name of the boat builder, but if you google the
name at the beginning of the clip you will find their
website, and they have lots of impressive stills and
videos of their boats out over that bar. Sam
--- Chris Crandall <crandall@ku. edu> wrote:
> >Posted by: "Chris Crandall" crandall@ku. edu____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> christiancrandall
> >
> > Force 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves
> (20-23 feet waves) with
> > dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with
> considerable spray.
> > That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but
> the boat does seem
> > seaworthy.
> >
>
> > Posted by: "John Gilbert" gilberj55@yahoo. ca
> gilberj55
> > Check your facts first....... .. force 9 is 41 to
> 47 knots, (47 to 54 mph) and 30 foot wave are
> consitant with force 9 given sufficient fetch and
> time.
>
>
> Oops, that's a typo. I mean 80kph, not mph. Thanks
> for picking that up.
>
> Although 30 foot waves might be consistent, on
> occasion, with Force 9,
> that's not what we saw in the video.
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hey Mike the first part of the Video would be a very nice day out on the fishing grounds in SE Alaska. I have also fished in the same size swells that you see at the bar only thing is we are in deep water! So you don't have the brakers on top but you still have the hight of the swell.
Blessings Krissie
Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote: Here is a YouTube link showing the avg.conditions I deal with on the
Columbia River Bar. I seldom venture out in conditions worse then
those in the first part of this video. Imagine this is a river 1,600
miles long with a running current slaming into an incomming tide. The
worse conditions are when there is a minus tide of 2 or 3 feet and
then a 8 plus. These conditions over a shalow bar make it what is
called the Grave Yard of the Pacific.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knz51leymyc
Fortunatly the Gloucester has a hull much like this Coast Guard
cutter.
Blessings Krissie
Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote: Here is a YouTube link showing the avg.conditions I deal with on the
Columbia River Bar. I seldom venture out in conditions worse then
those in the first part of this video. Imagine this is a river 1,600
miles long with a running current slaming into an incomming tide. The
worse conditions are when there is a minus tide of 2 or 3 feet and
then a 8 plus. These conditions over a shalow bar make it what is
called the Grave Yard of the Pacific.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knz51leymyc
Fortunatly the Gloucester has a hull much like this Coast Guard
cutter.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Gilbert <gilberj55@...> wrote:
>
> Check your facts first......... force 9 is 41 to 47 knots, (47 to
54 mph) and 30 foot wave are consitant with force 9 given sufficient
fetch and time.
>
> 80 mph winds are considered hurricane force 12
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
> To: No Reply <notify-dg-bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:18:15 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
>
> > Posted by: "derbyrm" derbyrm@insightbb. com derbyrm
> > Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))
> >
> > The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot
waves."
>
> Force 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves (20-23 feet waves)
with
> dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with considerable spray.
>
> That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but the boat does seem
> seaworthy.
>
>
>
>
>
> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at
http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
---------------------------------
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PS. Who want't to boat on a barge when there is plenty of open water
in the US. Limited canals here mate.
I would do it in the UK or Netherlands. On a bonified classic barge
ofcourse.
in the US. Limited canals here mate.
I would do it in the UK or Netherlands. On a bonified classic barge
ofcourse.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
>
> As in much of this sort of discussion if you tried it
> on a Dutchman or an English sailing barge skipper
> they'd just laugh at you.Flat bottomed spritsail or
> (for longer sea voyages)boomie barges replaced
> conventional round bilged craft on the east coast of
> England before they in their turn were replaced by
> motor ships
> cheers
> Andy Airey
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
Ive lived in Holland. Home of lot's of canal barges and Shoal draft
sailing boats on the very shallow North Zee.
There is a vast differance between a canal barge that is heavy and has
a wide beam if you compare to some of these very narow plywood boats.
Also, const in the NL and UK is of timbered const. Take a little
closer look and you will find they are well framed, low profiled and
heavy.
Ask me sometime what I think of the boat I own. One of Phils very
serious designs after working with the likes of Hacker.
Beautiful boat and flawed in design. I think it's the main reason he
got out of boat building.
Cheers!
www.gloucesterboat.zoomshare.com
sailing boats on the very shallow North Zee.
There is a vast differance between a canal barge that is heavy and has
a wide beam if you compare to some of these very narow plywood boats.
Also, const in the NL and UK is of timbered const. Take a little
closer look and you will find they are well framed, low profiled and
heavy.
Ask me sometime what I think of the boat I own. One of Phils very
serious designs after working with the likes of Hacker.
Beautiful boat and flawed in design. I think it's the main reason he
got out of boat building.
Cheers!
www.gloucesterboat.zoomshare.com
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
>
> As in much of this sort of discussion if you tried it
> on a Dutchman or an English sailing barge skipper
> they'd just laugh at you.Flat bottomed spritsail or
> (for longer sea voyages)boomie barges replaced
> conventional round bilged craft on the east coast of
> England before they in their turn were replaced by
> motor ships
> cheers
> Andy Airey
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
As in much of this sort of discussion if you tried it
on a Dutchman or an English sailing barge skipper
they'd just laugh at you.Flat bottomed spritsail or
(for longer sea voyages)boomie barges replaced
conventional round bilged craft on the east coast of
England before they in their turn were replaced by
motor ships
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
on a Dutchman or an English sailing barge skipper
they'd just laugh at you.Flat bottomed spritsail or
(for longer sea voyages)boomie barges replaced
conventional round bilged craft on the east coast of
England before they in their turn were replaced by
motor ships
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
1/2 my day out on the Gloucester crusing. Sitting around reading this
stuff gets old.
New photos www.gloucesterboat.zoomshare.com
>its
> > The St Pierre has crossed oceans.
> > One reason. It was built for it.
>
> Many boats have been built to cross oceans, but this thread is (or was)
> about Bolger River Cruisers.
>
>
> > Flat bottom boats do not displace water.
>
> All boats displace water, they simply do it to varying degrees.
>
>
> > Pressure increases with depth. Thus, this
> > increased pressure on deeper hulls is what
> > makes a boat stable.
>
> Pressure has nothing to do with it. Resistance to the lateral movement
> of water across the hull and its underwater appendages is what makes a
> boat more stable in the athwartship direction.
>
>
> > I am only saying, if you want to really improve
> > the design you like. Build a framework onto the
> > flat botom, skin it over.
>
> Improve the design how?
>
> Making a boat more suited to offshore work when it has been designed
> specifically as a very efficient running and easy-to-build river
> cruiser will degrade its performance and capabilities as a river
> cruiser in most cases. How is this an improvement to the design?
>
>
> > Note: you could even fill this cavity with foam.
> > Would be handy if the boat did capsize.
>
> Yeah right ... and then the foam can hold the boat upside down or on
> side and make it impossible to right again.I will keep to doing my boat rebuilds and boating. I prefer to spend
>
> A wiser solution might be to make this underwater cavity into a water
> ballast tank, then install flotation foam on the inside hull panels
> instead of below the waterline. This would allow the tank to be
> flooded and lower the hull deeper into the water for "ocean going
> work" ... and then pumped out for the river cruising this boat was
> designed for in the first place.
>
>
> Mike, in addition to Bruce's yahoo group suggestion there is also an
> very active web based forum site called "boatdesign.net" where people
> love to discuss these things. You might want to propose your design
> theories over there and see what those folks have to say about them.
> It's a good place to learn more about boat design.
1/2 my day out on the Gloucester crusing. Sitting around reading this
stuff gets old.
New photos www.gloucesterboat.zoomshare.com
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
My favorite boat on the Great Slave Lake, Fraser River, Pitt Lakes and Harrison Lakes has been a 23 foot freighter canoe witha a "Y" stern. A 10 hp Honda and Doelfin moves her at 11 knots upstream by the GPS. It takes following seas very well and goes into chop and waves. With a spray cover forward and some weight going to the Gulf Islands is not a problem either through Active or Porlier Pass. I met somebody locally that built square sterned freighter canoes based on the Hudson Bay model in "The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of North America" He used them as family vacation boats up and down the BC coast for years with a 25 hp outboard. An old ex RCMP officer from Labrador told me he once moved 80 100lb bags of flour up a river in one go with a 25 horsepower motor and I have loaded mine with enough camping gear for 6 people to remote spots. I also built a sprit sailing rig for it but have no photos.
----- Original Message -----
From: idahogetaway
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 4:49 PM
Subject: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
I did'nt intend to start such a debate. My question related to cruising
up the sunshine coast in calm weather (protected waters ). The thing
about the Idaho is its ability to plane and have a decent turn of
speed.Tennessee being a displacement hull is only capable of about 12
mph from my understanding. I talked to Jerry Estes the other day
(common sense boats) and he said he had ridden on Bernies boat and it
moved along really nice. His concern was getting sideways in a swell. I
would never consider going into open water in such a craft, rather
Fraser River use and weather permitting the inside straight.
Perhaps "Slicer" with a cabin for handlig a chop?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 8/23/07, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
Phil Bolger. I can hardly say I understand the nuances of designing
boats suitable for bar running, but I have tried to comprehend the
design issues by looking at a number of successful designs. One
common design element which I see is that the stern of the boat to
have low reserve buoyancy (and the bow to have high reserve buoyancy)
which serves the purpose allowing the bow to dig which causes the boat
to broach. Double enders are the classic form of this idea.
Therefore, I am guessing that Idaho is not a great bar runner. Idaho
is the optimal boat for a guy in a wheelchair to boat around in the
river near Portland Oregon, not for crossing the Columbia bar.
Another Bolger trick for avoiding the 'bow dig' problem inherent with
bar running is to have a buoyant cutwater, like you see with his
design 'Inlet Runner'.
Two classic designs for bar running are Munroe's Egret and the Calkins
Bartender.
>Those of us on the West Coast appreciate running the bar. So does
> boats out over that bar.
Phil Bolger. I can hardly say I understand the nuances of designing
boats suitable for bar running, but I have tried to comprehend the
design issues by looking at a number of successful designs. One
common design element which I see is that the stern of the boat to
have low reserve buoyancy (and the bow to have high reserve buoyancy)
which serves the purpose allowing the bow to dig which causes the boat
to broach. Double enders are the classic form of this idea.
Therefore, I am guessing that Idaho is not a great bar runner. Idaho
is the optimal boat for a guy in a wheelchair to boat around in the
river near Portland Oregon, not for crossing the Columbia bar.
Another Bolger trick for avoiding the 'bow dig' problem inherent with
bar running is to have a buoyant cutwater, like you see with his
design 'Inlet Runner'.
Two classic designs for bar running are Munroe's Egret and the Calkins
Bartender.
It turns out that that boat was not in solely
wind-driven waves--the pictures were taken of waves
forming over the Cork Harbor bar in Ireland. I forget
the name of the boat builder, but if you google the
name at the beginning of the clip you will find their
website, and they have lots of impressive stills and
videos of their boats out over that bar. Sam
--- Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
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http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
wind-driven waves--the pictures were taken of waves
forming over the Cork Harbor bar in Ireland. I forget
the name of the boat builder, but if you google the
name at the beginning of the clip you will find their
website, and they have lots of impressive stills and
videos of their boats out over that bar. Sam
--- Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
> >Posted by: "Chris Crandall"crandall@...____________________________________________________________________________________
> christiancrandall
> >
> > Force 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves
> (20-23 feet waves) with
> > dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with
> considerable spray.
> > That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but
> the boat does seem
> > seaworthy.
> >
>
> > Posted by: "John Gilbert"gilberj55@...
> gilberj55
> > Check your facts first......... force 9 is 41 to
> 47 knots, (47 to 54 mph) and 30 foot wave are
> consitant with force 9 given sufficient fetch and
> time.
>
>
> Oops, that's a typo. I mean 80kph, not mph. Thanks
> for picking that up.
>
> Although 30 foot waves might be consistent, on
> occasion, with Force 9,
> that's not what we saw in the video.
>
>
>
>
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
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>Posted by: "Chris Crandall"crandall@...christiancrandallOops, that's a typo. I mean 80kph, not mph. Thanks for picking that up.
>
> Force 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves (20-23 feet waves) with
> dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with considerable spray.
> That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but the boat does seem
> seaworthy.
>
> Posted by: "John Gilbert"gilberj55@...gilberj55
> Check your facts first......... force 9 is 41 to 47 knots, (47 to 54 mph) and 30 foot wave are consitant with force 9 given sufficient fetch and time.
Although 30 foot waves might be consistent, on occasion, with Force 9,
that's not what we saw in the video.
I tend to agree, though he's written more than a couple of times
IIRC that light weather sail went out when power became an option,
and so he actually draws smaller sail plans than otherwise and
devotes much attention to good motor and rudder accomodation.
However, I think on most of his powered auxilliaries the sail plan
could be smaller because it's mostly never going to be used in low
wind situations, and so it must be there for rousing performance in
good conditions of 10 to 15 kts if wanted.
In those unpowered oar auxilliaries WINDSPRINT, for example had a
relatively huge sail due to the fickle winds of the client's inland
home waters, JINNY too he wrote is meant to be reefed, but
BIRDWATCHER #496Aa quickly got a much bigger revised sail plan.
Graeme
IIRC that light weather sail went out when power became an option,
and so he actually draws smaller sail plans than otherwise and
devotes much attention to good motor and rudder accomodation.
However, I think on most of his powered auxilliaries the sail plan
could be smaller because it's mostly never going to be used in low
wind situations, and so it must be there for rousing performance in
good conditions of 10 to 15 kts if wanted.
In those unpowered oar auxilliaries WINDSPRINT, for example had a
relatively huge sail due to the fickle winds of the client's inland
home waters, JINNY too he wrote is meant to be reefed, but
BIRDWATCHER #496Aa quickly got a much bigger revised sail plan.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
> From his writings I have always taken the large sail plans to
allow
> good light weather sailing, sail to be reduced when the wind comes
up.
>
> HJ
From his writings I have always taken the large sail plans to allow
good light weather sailing, sail to be reduced when the wind comes up.
HJ
graeme19121984 wrote:
good light weather sailing, sail to be reduced when the wind comes up.
HJ
graeme19121984 wrote:
> Those double chine "swampscott" forms of Jim Michalak's, more
> specifically the ones with his "Toto" form of vee bows, seem to have
> the forefoot immersed instead of above the waterline in normal trim.
> This may help with "blowing off" and be better under sail when
> beating. Bolger's "swampscott" forms, like BEACH CAT, seem to keep
> the forefoot above the waterline. I note recently on another forum
> John Welsford obseved that his designs have a more immersed forefoot
> than Bolger's. JW said this allowed better windward speed and higher
> pointing than the Bolger form, but the Bolger form gave better
> reaching performance and so that must also be higher absolute speed.
> PCB has been said to be a speed freak by some. They usually point to
> his huge sailplans ;-)
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
Those double chine "swampscott" forms of Jim Michalak's, more
specifically the ones with his "Toto" form of vee bows, seem to have
the forefoot immersed instead of above the waterline in normal trim.
This may help with "blowing off" and be better under sail when
beating. Bolger's "swampscott" forms, like BEACH CAT, seem to keep
the forefoot above the waterline. I note recently on another forum
John Welsford obseved that his designs have a more immersed forefoot
than Bolger's. JW said this allowed better windward speed and higher
pointing than the Bolger form, but the Bolger form gave better
reaching performance and so that must also be higher absolute speed.
PCB has been said to be a speed freak by some. They usually point to
his huge sailplans ;-)
Graeme
specifically the ones with his "Toto" form of vee bows, seem to have
the forefoot immersed instead of above the waterline in normal trim.
This may help with "blowing off" and be better under sail when
beating. Bolger's "swampscott" forms, like BEACH CAT, seem to keep
the forefoot above the waterline. I note recently on another forum
John Welsford obseved that his designs have a more immersed forefoot
than Bolger's. JW said this allowed better windward speed and higher
pointing than the Bolger form, but the Bolger form gave better
reaching performance and so that must also be higher absolute speed.
PCB has been said to be a speed freak by some. They usually point to
his huge sailplans ;-)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Most shallow draft boats (Jim Michalak claims his multi-chine
boats are
> worse than pure flat-bottom boats) tend to have trouble with their
_bows_
> blowing downwind when maneuvering at slow speeds under power or
oars, not
> their _sterns_. When the bow blows off you have to use _lee helm_
to try
> to bring it back where you want it. Weather helm is having to
steer the
> bow away from the wind because the boat wants to head up into the
wind.
> John <jkohnen@...>
> When I think of the number of disagreeable people that I know
> have gone to a better world, I am sure hell won't be so bad at
> all. <Mark Twain>
>
Swell, in this context, is the sea wave. The full term is "ground swell"
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
M á ximo
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:55 PM
To: Bolger Group
Subject: Re: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
"inflamación"????
Máximo
PD: I have purchased Idaho plans a few years ago from CSB, even before
knowing about PBF and CSB dispute. I think Idaho would be great to use on
"Delta del Paraná"; and also on the "Rio de la Plata" river only with good
weather. I will try to sell Diablo, and then build Idaho, perhaps the second
Idaho ever built... at least on the internet :)
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
M á ximo
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:55 PM
To: Bolger Group
Subject: Re: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
> His concern was getting sideways in a swell.What s the meaning of this sentence? Babel fish translates swell into
"inflamación"????
Máximo
PD: I have purchased Idaho plans a few years ago from CSB, even before
knowing about PBF and CSB dispute. I think Idaho would be great to use on
"Delta del Paraná"; and also on the "Rio de la Plata" river only with good
weather. I will try to sell Diablo, and then build Idaho, perhaps the second
Idaho ever built... at least on the internet :)
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Most shallow draft boats (Jim Michalak claims his multi-chine boats are
worse than pure flat-bottom boats) tend to have trouble with their _bows_
blowing downwind when maneuvering at slow speeds under power or oars, not
their _sterns_. When the bow blows off you have to use _lee helm_ to try
to bring it back where you want it. Weather helm is having to steer the
bow away from the wind because the boat wants to head up into the wind.
worse than pure flat-bottom boats) tend to have trouble with their _bows_
blowing downwind when maneuvering at slow speeds under power or oars, not
their _sterns_. When the bow blows off you have to use _lee helm_ to try
to bring it back where you want it. Weather helm is having to steer the
bow away from the wind because the boat wants to head up into the wind.
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:02:01 -0700, Stefan wrote:
> --- "Michael" <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
>
>> You should also consider the very limiting effects of a almost flat
>> bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the amount of weather helm
>> on such a boat will make turning and course settings very difficult to
>> maintain.
>
> I remember at least one Bolger flat, ultra shallow draft river
> sharpie, where he added a dagger board (or something like that) to
> make navigation, especially turning, easier.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
When I think of the number of disagreeable people that I know
have gone to a better world, I am sure hell won't be so bad at
all. <Mark Twain>
> His concern was getting sideways in a swell.What s the meaning of this sentence? Babel fish translates swell into
"inflamación"????
Máximo
PD: I have purchased Idaho plans a few years ago from CSB, even before
knowing about PBF and CSB dispute. I think Idaho would be great to use on
"Delta del Paraná"; and also on the "Rio de la Plata" river only with good
weather. I will try to sell Diablo, and then build Idaho, perhaps the second
Idaho ever built... at least on the internet :)
Here is a YouTube link showing the avg.conditions I deal with on the
Columbia River Bar. I seldom venture out in conditions worse then
those in the first part of this video. Imagine this is a river 1,600
miles long with a running current slaming into an incomming tide. The
worse conditions are when there is a minus tide of 2 or 3 feet and
then a 8 plus. These conditions over a shalow bar make it what is
called the Grave Yard of the Pacific.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knz51leymyc
Fortunatly the Gloucester has a hull much like this Coast Guard
cutter.
Columbia River Bar. I seldom venture out in conditions worse then
those in the first part of this video. Imagine this is a river 1,600
miles long with a running current slaming into an incomming tide. The
worse conditions are when there is a minus tide of 2 or 3 feet and
then a 8 plus. These conditions over a shalow bar make it what is
called the Grave Yard of the Pacific.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knz51leymyc
Fortunatly the Gloucester has a hull much like this Coast Guard
cutter.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Gilbert <gilberj55@...> wrote:
>
> Check your facts first......... force 9 is 41 to 47 knots, (47 to
54 mph) and 30 foot wave are consitant with force 9 given sufficient
fetch and time.
>
> 80 mph winds are considered hurricane force 12
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
> To: No Reply <notify-dg-bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:18:15 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
>
> > Posted by: "derbyrm" derbyrm@insightbb. com derbyrm
> > Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))
> >
> > The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot
waves."
>
> Force 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves (20-23 feet waves)
with
> dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with considerable spray.
>
> That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but the boat does seem
> seaworthy.
>
>
>
>
>
> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at
http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Check your facts first......... force 9 is 41 to 47 knots, (47 to 54 mph) and 30 foot wave are consitant with force 9 given sufficient fetch and time.
80 mph winds are considered hurricane force 12
----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
To: No Reply <notify-dg-bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Cc:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:18:15 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with considerable spray.
That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but the boat does seem
seaworthy.
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail athttp://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
80 mph winds are considered hurricane force 12
----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
To: No Reply <notify-dg-bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Cc:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:18:15 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
> Posted by: "derbyrm" derbyrm@insightbb. com derbyrmForce 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves (20-23 feet waves) with
> Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))
>
> The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot waves."
dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with considerable spray.
That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but the boat does seem
seaworthy.
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail athttp://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Someone in Australia posted about a Fast Motorsailer without a rig.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
idahogetaway
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:50 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
I did'nt intend to start such a debate. My question related to cruising
up the sunshine coast in calm weather (protected waters ). The thing
about the Idaho is its ability to plane and have a decent turn of
speed.Tennessee being a displacement hull is only capable of about 12
mph from my understanding. I talked to Jerry Estes the other day
(common sense boats) and he said he had ridden on Bernies boat and it
moved along really nice. His concern was getting sideways in a swell. I
would never consider going into open water in such a craft, rather
Fraser River use and weather permitting the inside straight.
Perhaps "Slicer" with a cabin for handlig a chop?
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
idahogetaway
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:50 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
I did'nt intend to start such a debate. My question related to cruising
up the sunshine coast in calm weather (protected waters ). The thing
about the Idaho is its ability to plane and have a decent turn of
speed.Tennessee being a displacement hull is only capable of about 12
mph from my understanding. I talked to Jerry Estes the other day
(common sense boats) and he said he had ridden on Bernies boat and it
moved along really nice. His concern was getting sideways in a swell. I
would never consider going into open water in such a craft, rather
Fraser River use and weather permitting the inside straight.
Perhaps "Slicer" with a cabin for handlig a chop?
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
I did'nt intend to start such a debate. My question related to cruising
up the sunshine coast in calm weather (protected waters ). The thing
about the Idaho is its ability to plane and have a decent turn of
speed.Tennessee being a displacement hull is only capable of about 12
mph from my understanding. I talked to Jerry Estes the other day
(common sense boats) and he said he had ridden on Bernies boat and it
moved along really nice. His concern was getting sideways in a swell. I
would never consider going into open water in such a craft, rather
Fraser River use and weather permitting the inside straight.
Perhaps "Slicer" with a cabin for handlig a chop?
up the sunshine coast in calm weather (protected waters ). The thing
about the Idaho is its ability to plane and have a decent turn of
speed.Tennessee being a displacement hull is only capable of about 12
mph from my understanding. I talked to Jerry Estes the other day
(common sense boats) and he said he had ridden on Bernies boat and it
moved along really nice. His concern was getting sideways in a swell. I
would never consider going into open water in such a craft, rather
Fraser River use and weather permitting the inside straight.
Perhaps "Slicer" with a cabin for handlig a chop?
> Posted by: "derbyrm"derbyrm@...derbyrmForce 9 is about 80mph winds, with high waves (20-23 feet waves) with
> Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))
>
> The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot waves."
dense foam. Wave crests roll over, with considerable spray.
That's not Force 9, that's not 30 ft waves, but the boat does seem
seaworthy.
Base line rules for "normal".
Dogs stink, canoes tip over, and men exaggerate.
When any one of these three things ceases to be true then I know I am
dreaming.
Of course you add 50% for dramatic effect.
Caloosarat
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
GarthAB
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:16 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
* Those didn't look like 30-footers to me,
either, even measuring from
bottom of trough vertically to top of wave.
When talking to boaters about waves encountered, I always assume
they're using "bottom to top" measurement, plus about 50% for dramatic
effect . . .
Garth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dogs stink, canoes tip over, and men exaggerate.
When any one of these three things ceases to be true then I know I am
dreaming.
Of course you add 50% for dramatic effect.
Caloosarat
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
GarthAB
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:16 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
* Those didn't look like 30-footers to me,
either, even measuring from
bottom of trough vertically to top of wave.
When talking to boaters about waves encountered, I always assume
they're using "bottom to top" measurement, plus about 50% for dramatic
effect . . .
Garth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Now here is a 30 foot wave, about five miles from my house. That surf
only breaks like that a couple days a year, but wow, when it does!
http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/02/08/ba_mavericks08_115_kr.jpg
[Gratuitous Bolger topic-tie-in]
The local regulations severely regulate the use of personal watercraft
in the surf zone here.
But there is regulation of 'boats' in surf zones.
I have wondered just kind of "boat" Phil Bolger would design to evade
the regulation of 'personal watercraft'. Some 'boat' to function as
wave running surfer rescue craft for those conditions.
only breaks like that a couple days a year, but wow, when it does!
http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/02/08/ba_mavericks08_115_kr.jpg
[Gratuitous Bolger topic-tie-in]
The local regulations severely regulate the use of personal watercraft
in the surf zone here.
But there is regulation of 'boats' in surf zones.
I have wondered just kind of "boat" Phil Bolger would design to evade
the regulation of 'personal watercraft'. Some 'boat' to function as
wave running surfer rescue craft for those conditions.
I think the problem is simple. These boats are more inclined to be on
lakes and rivers in the mid west. 2 foot chop is fine. Here where I am
in the NW. gales, storms, avg. 3 footers and far above is the norm.
My last boat was 50 foot. Ed Monk design. I ran it on the Puget Sound.
This Gloucseter is being used on the Columbia River Oregon/Washington.
Its only 30 foot. It does fine for the most part.
lakes and rivers in the mid west. 2 foot chop is fine. Here where I am
in the NW. gales, storms, avg. 3 footers and far above is the norm.
My last boat was 50 foot. Ed Monk design. I ran it on the Puget Sound.
This Gloucseter is being used on the Columbia River Oregon/Washington.
Its only 30 foot. It does fine for the most part.
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Chester Young" <chester@...> wrote:
>
> I would think the question should be more related to how the builder
intends
> to use the boat. In the last year and ½ e have put 3,200 miles and 500
> hours on Esther Mae (Tennessee). I would not recommend a trip out
into the
> Gulf of Mexico out of site of land, but I would not have wanted to
set on
> the shore because my boat could not cross an ocean. The St Pierre
Dory is
> well over twice the weight of a Tennessee, that in it self could put
me on
> the side line as I haul Esther Mae in and out with a Jeep Wrangler
using a
> dirt ramp. Double the weight and I would be dreading a launch.
Granted it
> is not the smoothest of rides but to say that wind and wave cancel
the day
> would be untrue. We regularly run in 15-20 mph of wind in the
winter and 2'
> confused chop is handled with grace. Final item on the list is
draft; we
> camped in several locations this last winter where more than 8" of draft
> would mean staying on the outside. Consider the use, the skill of the
> captain and all the ancillary operating conditions before saying all
boats
> should be X.
>
>
>
> Caloosarat
>
>
>
> Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It came up a
> corrupted link.
>
>
>
> thanks
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Michael
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:55 PM
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
>
>
>
> Maybe this video will show you the reasons for displacement hulls.
>
> http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA--->
> com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA--- In
> bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, Sam Glasscock
> <glasscocklanding@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- Michael <skipper-mike@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > You should also consider the very limiting effects
> > > of a almost flat
> > > bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the
> > > amount of weather helm
> > > on such a boat will make turning and course settings
> > > very difficult to
> > > maintain.
> > > Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required
> > > low CG limits also
> > > make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather
> > > only boat.
> > > I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V",
> > > install a keel to the
> > > design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very
> > > effective.
> >
> > I don't know why a flat-bottomed motor-boat with a
> > v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
> > Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
> > weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
> > of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
> > of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
> > Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
> > it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel
> today! http://surveylink.
> <http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7>
> yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Those didn't look like 30-footers to me, either, even measuring from
bottom of trough vertically to top of wave.
I remember being out one day in what surely were 8-foot waves (scary
enough for me, thanks) -- as measured vertically from the bottom of
the trough to the top of the wave coming at you. When you were in the
trough, you couldn't see out past the next wave. But when I looked it
up online later, according to a nearby NOAA weather buoy there were
only 4-foot waves that day. Since we don't ride at mean sea level in a
storm, NOAA's definition is purely academic.
When talking to boaters about waves encountered, I always assume
they're using "bottom to top" measurement, plus about 50% for dramatic
effect . . .
Garth
bottom of trough vertically to top of wave.
I remember being out one day in what surely were 8-foot waves (scary
enough for me, thanks) -- as measured vertically from the bottom of
the trough to the top of the wave coming at you. When you were in the
trough, you couldn't see out past the next wave. But when I looked it
up online later, according to a nearby NOAA weather buoy there were
only 4-foot waves that day. Since we don't ride at mean sea level in a
storm, NOAA's definition is purely academic.
When talking to boaters about waves encountered, I always assume
they're using "bottom to top" measurement, plus about 50% for dramatic
effect . . .
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot waves."
>
> Wave height is reported by NOAA as the peak's height above the mean
sea level for that location at that time. What we observe is usually
the peak-to-peak amplitude, measured along the slope from the bottom;
much greater than the vertical distance.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: M á ximo
> To: Bolger Group
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
>
>
> > Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It
came up a corrupted link.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA
>
> Great video Sam! It looks like a toy on those waves...
> Regards, Maximo
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Personally I live and boat on the Columbia river and Columbia river
bar. The bar that enters the Pacfic is this violent at times. The US
Coast Guard trains all their pilots here.
I have crossed it in 30 to 35 footers. Non breaking thank god.
I will be taking my Phil Bolger designed boat the 90 mile trip down
there end of next week for Coho and Chinook fishing. My boat and
design apparently gave Phil a big head ach as the boat sat low in the
stern 5 inches more then he expected. Thus, bow high and steering was
a mess. Especially when going with the current.
He read Edwin Monks boat design book and found an answer in attaching
two metal skegs about 24 inches befor the stern heel. It does help.
Yet, I stll can experiance a sway to the boat in 5 knot and above
currents from behind. I have to really spin the wheel at times. In
heavy boat traffic I must be very careful. This is a boat that he
designed in a partnership with another person. The boats were built in
Japan. Then shipped back to the USA for final fitting of engines.
Phil only mentions this boat in his Biography. I think its a sore spot
as it was a very labor intensive design after he worked with
Hackercraft and other notable builders and borowed parts of their
designs to build the Out O Gloucester models.
I am working on a plan to change the flat section behind the keel to
build more lift. Will be taking lines after my next drydock haul out
in Nov.
Photos of the boat can be seen at the photos section or attached to my
profile.
bar. The bar that enters the Pacfic is this violent at times. The US
Coast Guard trains all their pilots here.
I have crossed it in 30 to 35 footers. Non breaking thank god.
I will be taking my Phil Bolger designed boat the 90 mile trip down
there end of next week for Coho and Chinook fishing. My boat and
design apparently gave Phil a big head ach as the boat sat low in the
stern 5 inches more then he expected. Thus, bow high and steering was
a mess. Especially when going with the current.
He read Edwin Monks boat design book and found an answer in attaching
two metal skegs about 24 inches befor the stern heel. It does help.
Yet, I stll can experiance a sway to the boat in 5 knot and above
currents from behind. I have to really spin the wheel at times. In
heavy boat traffic I must be very careful. This is a boat that he
designed in a partnership with another person. The boats were built in
Japan. Then shipped back to the USA for final fitting of engines.
Phil only mentions this boat in his Biography. I think its a sore spot
as it was a very labor intensive design after he worked with
Hackercraft and other notable builders and borowed parts of their
designs to build the Out O Gloucester models.
I am working on a plan to change the flat section behind the keel to
build more lift. Will be taking lines after my next drydock haul out
in Nov.
Photos of the boat can be seen at the photos section or attached to my
profile.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
>
> The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot waves."
>
> Wave height is reported by NOAA as the peak's height above the mean
sea level for that location at that time. What we observe is usually
the peak-to-peak amplitude, measured along the slope from the bottom;
much greater than the vertical distance.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: M á ximo
> To: Bolger Group
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
>
>
> > Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It
came up a corrupted link.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA
>
> Great video Sam! It looks like a toy on those waves...
> Regards, Maximo
> Recent Activity
> a.. 4New Members
> b.. 19New Photos
> Visit Your Group
> SPONSORED LINKS
> a.. Bolger center
> b.. Bolger
> c.. Phil bolger
> Y! Sports for TV
> Access it for free
>
> Get Fantasy Sports
>
> stats on your TV.
>
> Yahoo! Finance
> It's Now Personal
>
> Guides, news,
>
> advice & more.
>
> HDTV Support
> The official Samsung
>
> Y! Group for HDTVs
>
> and devices.
> .
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
The link worked for me, but I really question the "thirty foot waves."
Wave height is reported by NOAA as the peak's height above the mean sea level for that location at that time. What we observe is usually the peak-to-peak amplitude, measured along the slope from the bottom; much greater than the vertical distance.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Wave height is reported by NOAA as the peak's height above the mean sea level for that location at that time. What we observe is usually the peak-to-peak amplitude, measured along the slope from the bottom; much greater than the vertical distance.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: M á ximo
To: Bolger Group
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
> Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It came up a corrupted link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA
Great video Sam! It looks like a toy on those waves...
Regards, Maximo
Recent Activity
a.. 4New Members
b.. 19New Photos
Visit Your Group
SPONSORED LINKS
a.. Bolger center
b.. Bolger
c.. Phil bolger
Y! Sports for TV
Access it for free
Get Fantasy Sports
stats on your TV.
Yahoo! Finance
It's Now Personal
Guides, news,
advice & more.
HDTV Support
The official Samsung
Y! Group for HDTVs
and devices.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That sounds reasonable. The Sunfish isn't quite flat, but unless you have 3" of daggerboard sticking out the bottom, the rudder is useless.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Probst
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:02 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
--- "Michael" <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
> You should also consider the very limiting effects of a almost flat
> bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the amount of weather > helm on such a boat will make turning and course settings very > difficult to maintain.
I remember at least one Bolger flat, ultra shallow draft river
sharpie, where he added a dagger board (or something like that) to
make navigation, especially turning, easier.
Stefan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
Modification, improvement for stability and safety is a normal
adjustment by the actual builder.
The designer is not the person investing money, time,labor or personal
safety.
Boat designs are drawings of an idea only.
I could draw 1000's of ideas for boats.
I would rather concentrate on one very good design.
Boats are like a mariage. They are around for a very long time. Good
or bad.
>This is on topic when talking about a Phil Bolger design.
> On 8/21/07, Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
>
> > I am only saying, if you want to really improve the design...
>
> This might be beginning to stray a little bit off topic. The topic
> here is: boat designs of Phil Bolger. Discussions of individual
> design theory is a bit off topic.
>
> A good place to discuss the designing of "non-Bolger" boats is over on
> the Boat Design Yahoo group.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign
>
Modification, improvement for stability and safety is a normal
adjustment by the actual builder.
The designer is not the person investing money, time,labor or personal
safety.
Boat designs are drawings of an idea only.
I could draw 1000's of ideas for boats.
I would rather concentrate on one very good design.
Boats are like a mariage. They are around for a very long time. Good
or bad.
The link to youtube video I pasted on the message. Just type it in and
it will work. Michael--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "idahogetaway"
<idahogetaway@...> wrote:
it will work. Michael--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "idahogetaway"
<idahogetaway@...> wrote:
>
> I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river cruisers
> on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
> and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
> design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
> seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
1b. Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Posted by: "Michael"skipper-mike@...michaelpilot1955
I'm not sure if "Skipper Mike" is kidding or not, but virtually every
argument he gives about boat design is incorrect.
What he calls "weather helm" is a complex interaction of above vs. below
waterline shape and conditions. Bolger has said much on this matter.
Hard chine boats do not only sail on their chine--they are often best
sailed flat. It is round-bottom/soft-chined boats that sail best with
some degree of heel.
Flat-bottomed boats are often quite seaworthy--I point to the New Haven
Sharpie, the SF Bay hay scow Alma, and the Presto style Egret, as
examples of seaworthy flat-bottomed boats. I need hardly mention the
many blue-water boats of Phil Bolger with flat bottoms, nor the obvious
blue water dories--can you spell B-A-D-G-E-R?
The first flat-bottomed boat that worked "best" was not the Lightning,
although this is a very good design. Again, I point to sharpies, scows,
the Piscataqua Gundalow, among many others.
Plywood cost is not the same for a v-hull as a flat-bottomed boat, and
this is only a small fraction of the increased coast, in time, energy,
re-design, epoxy, fiberglass, and so on.
Installing a keel to an existing flat-bottomed design? I cannot civilly
express how poor an idea this is.
"Flat bottom boats do not displace water. Hence, when you even step
aboard the boat will tip."
Of course they do--the laws of physics are not suspended for
flat-bottomed boats. All boats tip when you stand on them, exactly
equivalent to the ratio of your weight, the boat's displacement, and the
metacenter of the boat. You don't notice much when you step on the QE2,
of course.
"increased pressure on deeper hulls is what makes a boat stable."
Lordy. There is a balance of forces--we call them weight, displacement,
flotation, and so on. The difference in water pressure at 6 inches
compared to 2 feet is negligible.
"flat bottom is at the mercy of what ever wind, wave action without
any below water line resistance."
There are chines. Matt Leyden has evidence that tiny little chines are
all it takes to sail to weather. Show me a boat with no "below water
line resistance" and I will show you a zeppelin.
"if you want to really improve the design you like. Build a framework
onto the flat botom, skin it over. Note: you could even fill this cavity
with foam. Would be handy if the boat did capsize."
Recipe for disaster, and very bad advice. Flotation is a lovely thing,
but adding it under a skin on the bottom of a well-designed boat is
silly, foolhardy, and asking for trouble.
"There is alot of strenght [sic] produced by bending, torque ect.. in a
St Pierre Dory."
Bending plywood does not create "alot of strength", rather it increases
stiffness. (By torque, I am guessing you mean torsional resistance.)
This has its pluses, but also its minuses, for example, decreased
resistance to puncture.
I could go on, but I shall not, it is enough.
Posted by: "Michael"skipper-mike@...michaelpilot1955
I'm not sure if "Skipper Mike" is kidding or not, but virtually every
argument he gives about boat design is incorrect.
What he calls "weather helm" is a complex interaction of above vs. below
waterline shape and conditions. Bolger has said much on this matter.
Hard chine boats do not only sail on their chine--they are often best
sailed flat. It is round-bottom/soft-chined boats that sail best with
some degree of heel.
Flat-bottomed boats are often quite seaworthy--I point to the New Haven
Sharpie, the SF Bay hay scow Alma, and the Presto style Egret, as
examples of seaworthy flat-bottomed boats. I need hardly mention the
many blue-water boats of Phil Bolger with flat bottoms, nor the obvious
blue water dories--can you spell B-A-D-G-E-R?
The first flat-bottomed boat that worked "best" was not the Lightning,
although this is a very good design. Again, I point to sharpies, scows,
the Piscataqua Gundalow, among many others.
Plywood cost is not the same for a v-hull as a flat-bottomed boat, and
this is only a small fraction of the increased coast, in time, energy,
re-design, epoxy, fiberglass, and so on.
Installing a keel to an existing flat-bottomed design? I cannot civilly
express how poor an idea this is.
"Flat bottom boats do not displace water. Hence, when you even step
aboard the boat will tip."
Of course they do--the laws of physics are not suspended for
flat-bottomed boats. All boats tip when you stand on them, exactly
equivalent to the ratio of your weight, the boat's displacement, and the
metacenter of the boat. You don't notice much when you step on the QE2,
of course.
"increased pressure on deeper hulls is what makes a boat stable."
Lordy. There is a balance of forces--we call them weight, displacement,
flotation, and so on. The difference in water pressure at 6 inches
compared to 2 feet is negligible.
"flat bottom is at the mercy of what ever wind, wave action without
any below water line resistance."
There are chines. Matt Leyden has evidence that tiny little chines are
all it takes to sail to weather. Show me a boat with no "below water
line resistance" and I will show you a zeppelin.
"if you want to really improve the design you like. Build a framework
onto the flat botom, skin it over. Note: you could even fill this cavity
with foam. Would be handy if the boat did capsize."
Recipe for disaster, and very bad advice. Flotation is a lovely thing,
but adding it under a skin on the bottom of a well-designed boat is
silly, foolhardy, and asking for trouble.
"There is alot of strenght [sic] produced by bending, torque ect.. in a
St Pierre Dory."
Bending plywood does not create "alot of strength", rather it increases
stiffness. (By torque, I am guessing you mean torsional resistance.)
This has its pluses, but also its minuses, for example, decreased
resistance to puncture.
I could go on, but I shall not, it is enough.
> Sam, could you post the search words for the videoSorry, I didn't post that link and can't open it,
> below? It came up
> a corrupted link.
myself. Sam
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- "Michael" <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
sharpie, where he added a dagger board (or something like that) to
make navigation, especially turning, easier.
Stefan
> You should also consider the very limiting effects of a almost flatI remember at least one Bolger flat, ultra shallow draft river
> bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the amount of weather helm
> on such a boat will make turning and course settings very difficult to
> maintain.
sharpie, where he added a dagger board (or something like that) to
make navigation, especially turning, easier.
Stefan
> Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It came uphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA
> a corrupted link.
Great video Sam! It looks like a toy on those waves...
Regards, Maximo
I would think the question should be more related to how the builder
intends to use the boat. In the last year and ½ e have put 3,200
miles and 500 hours on Esther Mae (Tennessee). I would not
recommend a trip out into the Gulf of Mexico out of site of land, but
I would not have wanted to set on the shore because my boat could not
cross an ocean. The St Pierre Dory is well over twice the weight of
a Tennessee, that in it self could put me on the side line as I haul
Esther Mae in and out with a Jeep Wrangler using a dirt ramp. Double
the weight and I would be dreading a launch. Granted it is not the
smoothest of rides but to say that wind and wave cancel the day would
be untrue. We regularly run in 15-20 mph of wind in the winter and
2' confused chop is handled with grace. Final item on the list is
draft; we camped in several locations this last winter where more
than 8" of draft would mean staying on the outside. Consider the
use, the skill of the captain and all the ancillary operating
conditions before saying all boats should be X.
Caloosarat
Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It came up
a corrupted link.
thanks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:55 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Maybe this video will show you the reasons for displacement hulls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA---In
bolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
intends to use the boat. In the last year and ½ e have put 3,200
miles and 500 hours on Esther Mae (Tennessee). I would not
recommend a trip out into the Gulf of Mexico out of site of land, but
I would not have wanted to set on the shore because my boat could not
cross an ocean. The St Pierre Dory is well over twice the weight of
a Tennessee, that in it self could put me on the side line as I haul
Esther Mae in and out with a Jeep Wrangler using a dirt ramp. Double
the weight and I would be dreading a launch. Granted it is not the
smoothest of rides but to say that wind and wave cancel the day would
be untrue. We regularly run in 15-20 mph of wind in the winter and
2' confused chop is handled with grace. Final item on the list is
draft; we camped in several locations this last winter where more
than 8" of draft would mean staying on the outside. Consider the
use, the skill of the captain and all the ancillary operating
conditions before saying all boats should be X.
Caloosarat
Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It came up
a corrupted link.
thanks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:55 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Maybe this video will show you the reasons for displacement hulls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA---In
bolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
Anything smaller can't really carry the cabin weight if you are going to
go for the narrow beam. Sneakeasy is the next step down.
Hj
idahogetaway wrote:
go for the narrow beam. Sneakeasy is the next step down.
Hj
idahogetaway wrote:
> I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river cruisers
> on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
> and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
> design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
> seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
>
>
>
Well I know first hand how seaworthy a flat bottomed boat can be! Try going across the gulf of Alaska in late March or early April, your boats beam has far more to do with how stable it is them the depth of the hull.
Blessings Krissie
Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
--- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
flat-bottomed passagemakers and has expressed the
opinion that a shallow-draft boat, properly designed,
can be as/more seaworthy than a deep-draft boat. Sam
__________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
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---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Blessings Krissie
Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
--- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
> Hear Hear!I don't disagree. However, PB has designed
>
> Furthermore, PCB's philosophy, as stated in the
> books of his I have read, is
> to fit the design to the purpose. He quite clearly
> discusses the
> limitations of Wyoming in his essay. Comparing a
> river cruiser to a pilot
> boat in a force 9 sea is like comparing a bicycle to
> a Harley Electraglide.
>
flat-bottomed passagemakers and has expressed the
opinion that a shallow-draft boat, properly designed,
can be as/more seaworthy than a deep-draft boat. Sam
__________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The St Pierre has crossed oceans.Many boats have been built to cross oceans, but this thread is (or was)
> One reason. It was built for it.
about Bolger River Cruisers.
> Flat bottom boats do not displace water.All boats displace water, they simply do it to varying degrees.
> Pressure increases with depth. Thus, thisPressure has nothing to do with it. Resistance to the lateral movement
> increased pressure on deeper hulls is what
> makes a boat stable.
of water across the hull and its underwater appendages is what makes a
boat more stable in the athwartship direction.
> I am only saying, if you want to really improveImprove the design how?
> the design you like. Build a framework onto the
> flat botom, skin it over.
Making a boat more suited to offshore work when it has been designed
specifically as a very efficient running and easy-to-build river
cruiser will degrade its performance and capabilities as a river
cruiser in most cases. How is this an improvement to the design?
> Note: you could even fill this cavity with foam.Yeah right ... and then the foam can hold the boat upside down or on its
> Would be handy if the boat did capsize.
side and make it impossible to right again.
A wiser solution might be to make this underwater cavity into a water
ballast tank, then install flotation foam on the inside hull panels
instead of below the waterline. This would allow the tank to be
flooded and lower the hull deeper into the water for "ocean going
work" ... and then pumped out for the river cruising this boat was
designed for in the first place.
Mike, in addition to Bruce's yahoo group suggestion there is also an
very active web based forum site called "boatdesign.net" where people
love to discuss these things. You might want to propose your design
theories over there and see what those folks have to say about them.
It's a good place to learn more about boat design.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Not true, unless I misunderstand your point. For a given displacement
(weight), all hull forms displace the same volume of water, and the total
upward pressure on the hull is identical (otherwise the vessel would sink or
fly). Lateral pressure is immaterial because it sums to zero.
I do not have enough knowledge to know if one hull form is more "stable"
than the other, but if there is a difference it is not because of a
difference in the displacement or pressure acting on the hull. It is true
that a v-hull has more lateral projection below the water line than a flat
bottom hull of the same displacement and thus more resistance to sideways
movement. However, they can be made equivalent by adding a keel to the flat
hull.
buzzard
-----Original Message-----
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:34 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Flat bottom boats do not displace water. Hence, when you even step
aboard the boat will tip. There is not enough hull below the water
line to accomodate the added weight. With a displacement hull you have
much more bottom area in contact with the water. Also, consider the
pressure you feel on your body, swim mask when diving. Pressure
increases with depth. Thus, this increased pressure on deeper hulls is
what makes a boat stable.
A flat bottom is at the mercy of what ever wind, wave action without
any below water line resistance.
I am only saying, if you want to really improve the design you like.
Build a framework onto the flat botom, skin it over.
Note: you could even fill this cavity with foam. Would be handy if the
boat did capsize.
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, Sam
Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
<http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7>
yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
(weight), all hull forms displace the same volume of water, and the total
upward pressure on the hull is identical (otherwise the vessel would sink or
fly). Lateral pressure is immaterial because it sums to zero.
I do not have enough knowledge to know if one hull form is more "stable"
than the other, but if there is a difference it is not because of a
difference in the displacement or pressure acting on the hull. It is true
that a v-hull has more lateral projection below the water line than a flat
bottom hull of the same displacement and thus more resistance to sideways
movement. However, they can be made equivalent by adding a keel to the flat
hull.
buzzard
-----Original Message-----
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:34 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Flat bottom boats do not displace water. Hence, when you even step
aboard the boat will tip. There is not enough hull below the water
line to accomodate the added weight. With a displacement hull you have
much more bottom area in contact with the water. Also, consider the
pressure you feel on your body, swim mask when diving. Pressure
increases with depth. Thus, this increased pressure on deeper hulls is
what makes a boat stable.
A flat bottom is at the mercy of what ever wind, wave action without
any below water line resistance.
I am only saying, if you want to really improve the design you like.
Build a framework onto the flat botom, skin it over.
Note: you could even fill this cavity with foam. Would be handy if the
boat did capsize.
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, Sam
Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
>__________________________________________________________
>
> --- Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
>
>
> > You should also consider the very limiting effects
> > of a almost flat
> > bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the
> > amount of weather helm
> > on such a boat will make turning and course settings
> > very difficult to
> > maintain.
> > Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required
> > low CG limits also
> > make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather
> > only boat.
> > I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V",
> > install a keel to the
> > design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very
> > effective.
>
> I don't know why a flat-bottomed motor-boat with a
> v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
> Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
> weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
> of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
> of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
> Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
> it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
>
>
>
>
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Paneltoday! http://surveylink.
<http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7>
yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
flat-bottomed passagemakers and has expressed the
opinion that a shallow-draft boat, properly designed,
can be as/more seaworthy than a deep-draft boat. Sam
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
> Hear Hear!I don't disagree. However, PB has designed
>
> Furthermore, PCB's philosophy, as stated in the
> books of his I have read, is
> to fit the design to the purpose. He quite clearly
> discusses the
> limitations of Wyoming in his essay. Comparing a
> river cruiser to a pilot
> boat in a force 9 sea is like comparing a bicycle to
> a Harley Electraglide.
>
flat-bottomed passagemakers and has expressed the
opinion that a shallow-draft boat, properly designed,
can be as/more seaworthy than a deep-draft boat. Sam
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
I would think the question should be more related to how the builder intends
to use the boat. In the last year and ½ e have put 3,200 miles and 500
hours on Esther Mae (Tennessee). I would not recommend a trip out into the
Gulf of Mexico out of site of land, but I would not have wanted to set on
the shore because my boat could not cross an ocean. The St Pierre Dory is
well over twice the weight of a Tennessee, that in it self could put me on
the side line as I haul Esther Mae in and out with a Jeep Wrangler using a
dirt ramp. Double the weight and I would be dreading a launch. Granted it
is not the smoothest of rides but to say that wind and wave cancel the day
would be untrue. We regularly run in 15-20 mph of wind in the winter and 2
confused chop is handled with grace. Final item on the list is draft; we
camped in several locations this last winter where more than 8 of draft
would mean staying on the outside. Consider the use, the skill of the
captain and all the ancillary operating conditions before saying all boats
should be X.
Caloosarat
Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It came up a
corrupted link.
thanks
_____
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:55 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Maybe this video will show you the reasons for displacement hulls.
http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA--->
com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA--- In
bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, Sam Glasscock
<glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
<http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7>
yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
to use the boat. In the last year and ½ e have put 3,200 miles and 500
hours on Esther Mae (Tennessee). I would not recommend a trip out into the
Gulf of Mexico out of site of land, but I would not have wanted to set on
the shore because my boat could not cross an ocean. The St Pierre Dory is
well over twice the weight of a Tennessee, that in it self could put me on
the side line as I haul Esther Mae in and out with a Jeep Wrangler using a
dirt ramp. Double the weight and I would be dreading a launch. Granted it
is not the smoothest of rides but to say that wind and wave cancel the day
would be untrue. We regularly run in 15-20 mph of wind in the winter and 2
confused chop is handled with grace. Final item on the list is draft; we
camped in several locations this last winter where more than 8 of draft
would mean staying on the outside. Consider the use, the skill of the
captain and all the ancillary operating conditions before saying all boats
should be X.
Caloosarat
Sam, could you post the search words for the video below? It came up a
corrupted link.
thanks
_____
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:55 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Maybe this video will show you the reasons for displacement hulls.
http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA--->
com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA--- In
bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com, Sam Glasscock
<glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
>__________________________________________________________
>
> --- Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
>
>
> > You should also consider the very limiting effects
> > of a almost flat
> > bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the
> > amount of weather helm
> > on such a boat will make turning and course settings
> > very difficult to
> > maintain.
> > Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required
> > low CG limits also
> > make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather
> > only boat.
> > I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V",
> > install a keel to the
> > design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very
> > effective.
>
> I don't know why a flat-bottomed motor-boat with a
> v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
> Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
> weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
> of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
> of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
> Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
> it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
>
>
>
>
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Paneltoday! http://surveylink.
<http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7>
yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hear Hear!
Furthermore, PCB's philosophy, as stated in the books of his I have read, is
to fit the design to the purpose. He quite clearly discusses the
limitations of Wyoming in his essay. Comparing a river cruiser to a pilot
boat in a force 9 sea is like comparing a bicycle to a Harley Electraglide.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Bruce Hallman
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 5:01 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
Furthermore, PCB's philosophy, as stated in the books of his I have read, is
to fit the design to the purpose. He quite clearly discusses the
limitations of Wyoming in his essay. Comparing a river cruiser to a pilot
boat in a force 9 sea is like comparing a bicycle to a Harley Electraglide.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Bruce Hallman
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 5:01 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger River Cruisers
On 8/21/07, Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
> I am only saying, if you want to really improve the design...
This might be beginning to stray a little bit off topic. The topic
here is: boat designs of Phil Bolger. Discussions of individual
design theory is a bit off topic.
A good place to discuss the designing of "non-Bolger" boats is over on
the Boat Design Yahoo group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign
On 8/21/07, Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
here is: boat designs of Phil Bolger. Discussions of individual
design theory is a bit off topic.
A good place to discuss the designing of "non-Bolger" boats is over on
the Boat Design Yahoo group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign
> I am only saying, if you want to really improve the design...This might be beginning to stray a little bit off topic. The topic
here is: boat designs of Phil Bolger. Discussions of individual
design theory is a bit off topic.
A good place to discuss the designing of "non-Bolger" boats is over on
the Boat Design Yahoo group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign
Maybe this video will show you the reasons for displacement hulls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA---In
bolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13atcRFhUA---In
bolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> --- Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
>
>
> > You should also consider the very limiting effects
> > of a almost flat
> > bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the
> > amount of weather helm
> > on such a boat will make turning and course settings
> > very difficult to
> > maintain.
> > Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required
> > low CG limits also
> > make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather
> > only boat.
> > I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V",
> > install a keel to the
> > design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very
> > effective.
>
> I don't know why a flat-bottomed motor-boat with a
> v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
> Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
> weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
> of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
> of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
> Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
> it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
>
>
>
>
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Paneltoday!http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
http://www.nexusmarine.com/st_pierre.html---
The St Pierre has crossed oceans. One reason. It was built for it.
Evey part works to reinforce the frame and displace water. Thus the
word Sea Worthy is in effect by way of correct design.
Ps. There is alot of strenght produced by bending, torque ect.. in a
St Pierre Dory.
Square, flat panels do not produce this. Infact they are quite weak.
Also, the St Pierre is not truely just a flat bottom. It is a tappered
bottom. And, the sides act in heavy seas displacing water. Thus, more
stability found when the boat runs deeper in a chop.
Standing on top of a ladder is not stability. Nether is a flat bottom
on top of the water.
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
The St Pierre has crossed oceans. One reason. It was built for it.
Evey part works to reinforce the frame and displace water. Thus the
word Sea Worthy is in effect by way of correct design.
Ps. There is alot of strenght produced by bending, torque ect.. in a
St Pierre Dory.
Square, flat panels do not produce this. Infact they are quite weak.
Also, the St Pierre is not truely just a flat bottom. It is a tappered
bottom. And, the sides act in heavy seas displacing water. Thus, more
stability found when the boat runs deeper in a chop.
Standing on top of a ladder is not stability. Nether is a flat bottom
on top of the water.
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> --- Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
>
>
> > You should also consider the very limiting effects
> > of a almost flat
> > bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the
> > amount of weather helm
> > on such a boat will make turning and course settings
> > very difficult to
> > maintain.
> > Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required
> > low CG limits also
> > make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather
> > only boat.
> > I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V",
> > install a keel to the
> > design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very
> > effective.
>
> I don't know why a flat-bottomed motor-boat with a
> v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
> Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
> weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
> of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
> of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
> Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
> it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
>
>
>
>
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Paneltoday!http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
Flat bottom boats do not displace water. Hence, when you even step
aboard the boat will tip. There is not enough hull below the water
line to accomodate the added weight. With a displacement hull you have
much more bottom area in contact with the water. Also, consider the
pressure you feel on your body, swim mask when diving. Pressure
increases with depth. Thus, this increased pressure on deeper hulls is
what makes a boat stable.
A flat bottom is at the mercy of what ever wind, wave action without
any below water line resistance.
I am only saying, if you want to really improve the design you like.
Build a framework onto the flat botom, skin it over.
Note: you could even fill this cavity with foam. Would be handy if the
boat did capsize.
aboard the boat will tip. There is not enough hull below the water
line to accomodate the added weight. With a displacement hull you have
much more bottom area in contact with the water. Also, consider the
pressure you feel on your body, swim mask when diving. Pressure
increases with depth. Thus, this increased pressure on deeper hulls is
what makes a boat stable.
A flat bottom is at the mercy of what ever wind, wave action without
any below water line resistance.
I am only saying, if you want to really improve the design you like.
Build a framework onto the flat botom, skin it over.
Note: you could even fill this cavity with foam. Would be handy if the
boat did capsize.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
>
>
> > You should also consider the very limiting effects
> > of a almost flat
> > bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the
> > amount of weather helm
> > on such a boat will make turning and course settings
> > very difficult to
> > maintain.
> > Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required
> > low CG limits also
> > make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather
> > only boat.
> > I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V",
> > install a keel to the
> > design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very
> > effective.
>
> I don't know why a flat-bottomed motor-boat with a
> v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
> Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
> weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
> of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
> of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
> Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
> it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel
today!http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
--- Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote:
v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
> You should also consider the very limiting effectsI don't know why a flat-bottomed motor-boat with a
> of a almost flat
> bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the
> amount of weather helm
> on such a boat will make turning and course settings
> very difficult to
> maintain.
> Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required
> low CG limits also
> make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather
> only boat.
> I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V",
> install a keel to the
> design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very
> effective.
v-shaped cutwater, like the Blackfish designs or the
Tahiti, should be less capable, or more prone to
weather helm, than a similar design with a few degrees
of dead-rise in the bottom. It depends on the design,
of course, but St. Pierre dories have crossed oceans.
Adding some dead-rise to such a design will just make
it chine-walk unpleasantly, in my experience. Sam
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
Personaly, I would find someone who has built the "Idaho or type boat,
invest in driving or flying to it and taking a ride before ever buying
a set of plans.
You should also consider the very limiting effects of a almost flat
bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the amount of weather helm
on such a boat will make turning and course settings very difficult to
maintain. A flat bottom, hard chine can work on a sailing rig because
you are riding on the chine, not the flat bottom. The design that first
worked best was designed by Sparkman and Stephens in the 1930's. Call
the "Lighting" They are still considered among the fastest class boats
in the 20 ft range.
Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required low CG limits also
make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather only boat.
I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V", install a keel to the
design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very effective.
After all. the plywood cost will remain the same. Perfomance and safety
would be greatly increased.
invest in driving or flying to it and taking a ride before ever buying
a set of plans.
You should also consider the very limiting effects of a almost flat
bottom. In any weather, blows and currents the amount of weather helm
on such a boat will make turning and course settings very difficult to
maintain. A flat bottom, hard chine can work on a sailing rig because
you are riding on the chine, not the flat bottom. The design that first
worked best was designed by Sparkman and Stephens in the 1930's. Call
the "Lighting" They are still considered among the fastest class boats
in the 20 ft range.
Back to flat bottom boats. Stability and required low CG limits also
make this a limmited, flat water and fair weather only boat.
I would personaly frame the bottom with some "V", install a keel to the
design. Stich and Glue would be simple and very effective.
After all. the plywood cost will remain the same. Perfomance and safety
would be greatly increased.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> On 8/20/07, idahogetaway <idahogetaway@...> wrote:
>
> > >I have almost convinced myself to build Idaho ( hence my
username).Was
> > Bernie Wolford the only builder? I am curious if this design would
be
> > capable of cruising in the straight of georgia during the summer
> > months? I am constantly drawn to its simple striking lines.
>
> I too have long been a admirer of the Idaho design. In the last
> twenty years, I think, that PB&F have refined their concept of the
> flat bottom cruiser into their new series of designs where they keep
> the flat bottom aft, but forward the bottom sweeps up, and then
> receives two simple twisted panels to give a fine lined, (less spray
> and splash), more curvy entry shape. This is seen in Topaz, in Sitka
> Explorer, and in the new Blackfish boats.
>
On 8/20/07, idahogetaway <idahogetaway@...> wrote:
twenty years, I think, that PB&F have refined their concept of the
flat bottom cruiser into their new series of designs where they keep
the flat bottom aft, but forward the bottom sweeps up, and then
receives two simple twisted panels to give a fine lined, (less spray
and splash), more curvy entry shape. This is seen in Topaz, in Sitka
Explorer, and in the new Blackfish boats.
> >I have almost convinced myself to build Idaho ( hence my username).WasI too have long been a admirer of the Idaho design. In the last
> Bernie Wolford the only builder? I am curious if this design would be
> capable of cruising in the straight of georgia during the summer
> months? I am constantly drawn to its simple striking lines.
twenty years, I think, that PB&F have refined their concept of the
flat bottom cruiser into their new series of designs where they keep
the flat bottom aft, but forward the bottom sweeps up, and then
receives two simple twisted panels to give a fine lined, (less spray
and splash), more curvy entry shape. This is seen in Topaz, in Sitka
Explorer, and in the new Blackfish boats.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
capable of cruising in the straight of georgia during the summer
months? I am constantly drawn to its simple striking lines.
wrote:
>Bernie Wolford the only builder? I am curious if this design would be
> > I apologize for an inaccurate remark. I got my threads crossed.
> > Wyoming is a double size Sneakeasy, not Diablo
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I just sent my email to the group to mention this correction, then I
> received yours. Sorry about that!
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>I have almost convinced myself to build Idaho ( hence my username).Was
capable of cruising in the straight of georgia during the summer
months? I am constantly drawn to its simple striking lines.
> I apologize for an inaccurate remark. I got my threads crossed.Hi Chris,
> Wyoming is a double size Sneakeasy, not Diablo
I just sent my email to the group to mention this correction, then I
received yours. Sorry about that!
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
> Did Mr. Bolger ever design a "state"A 24 foot boat in this design type is pretty small. Are you sure you're
> cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.?
not ready for one that's a few feet longer?
> Wyoming is a double size Diablo.Actually Wyoming is a scaled up Sneakeasy (not Diablo) hull that is
> See www.instantboats.com
almost 52 feet long:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Wyoming/
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
I apologize for an inaccurate remark. I got my threads crossed. Wyoming is
a double size Sneakeasy, not Diablo
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
idahogetaway
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 8:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river cruisers
on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
appreciated.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
a double size Sneakeasy, not Diablo
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
idahogetaway
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 8:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river cruisers
on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
appreciated.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Wyoming is a double size Diablo. See www.instantboats.com
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
idahogetaway
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 8:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river cruisers
on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
appreciated.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
idahogetaway
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 8:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Bolger River Cruisers
I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river cruisers
on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
appreciated.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
I have pretty much exhausted my search for the sharpie river cruisers
on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
appreciated.
on the net and was wondering if you could help? I really like idaho
and tennessee but need something a little smaller. Did Mr. Bolger ever
design a similar "state" cruiser about 24 Ft. L.O.A.? I have never
seen Montana ( not sure of it's length ) Any input would be greatly
appreciated.