Re: Bolger Sampan series Non Instant Diablo on steroids.
--- "Howard Stephenson" <howardstephenson@...> wrote:
Stefan
>Finally I know whom to say a big THANK YOU!
> Well, I hope so, Stefan, seeing as I entered most of the data on the
> boats from Bolger's books into our database including, almost
> certainly, those two ;-)
Stefan
Thats OK Jim, I do like the looks of it as well. All her lines seem to flow and it just looks good to my eyes. Maybe having been raised around the older boats tends to shade my view of things.
I look at the new boats and they have no real style other then blop.
Blessings all Krissie
Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote:
Krissie, Sorry I missed your post.
Here is a link...sorry for the glare I had to take a pic of it and the
flash made glare.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/view/2db7?b=2
Jim
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I look at the new boats and they have no real style other then blop.
Blessings all Krissie
Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote:
Krissie, Sorry I missed your post.
Here is a link...sorry for the glare I had to take a pic of it and the
flash made glare.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/view/2db7?b=2
Jim
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krissie, Sorry I missed your post.
Here is a link...sorry for the glare I had to take a pic of it and the
flash made glare.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/view/2db7?b=2
Jim
Here is a link...sorry for the glare I had to take a pic of it and the
flash made glare.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/view/2db7?b=2
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
here, and the knowledgable are actually those at Google, yet again ;-)
One thing though is that this will mainly be a further avenue designed
for increasing the emolument of lawyers, in the absence of any economic
author's rights or otherwise. So I'd reckon a mutually respectful,
longstanding relationship between good friends, as between Dynamite and
PB, remains a great thing to have - as always.
Graeme
> you are a knowlegable man.Not at all. I have just a few clues as the debate was not that long ago
here, and the knowledgable are actually those at Google, yet again ;-)
One thing though is that this will mainly be a further avenue designed
for increasing the emolument of lawyers, in the absence of any economic
author's rights or otherwise. So I'd reckon a mutually respectful,
longstanding relationship between good friends, as between Dynamite and
PB, remains a great thing to have - as always.
Graeme
Graeme,
Sir you are a knowlegable man.
There was a relunctance to spell things out here concerning the genesis
of those plans due to the reflections on Capt. Orrell. But I suppose
that shouldn't have been a concern since those reflections are already
widely known. In his day he was a great Captian who in the words of
many could pilot the Queen Mary to any port in the world. Yet, a shrewd
businessman.
Jim
> Capt. Jim Orrell certainly trampled on Phil Bolger's then moralHow things have chaged in the last seven years. Thanks for those links.
> though not legal "moral rights" on some occaisions, for instance
> when JO had others alter a PB plan.
Sir you are a knowlegable man.
There was a relunctance to spell things out here concerning the genesis
of those plans due to the reflections on Capt. Orrell. But I suppose
that shouldn't have been a concern since those reflections are already
widely known. In his day he was a great Captian who in the words of
many could pilot the Queen Mary to any port in the world. Yet, a shrewd
businessman.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
yes, Dynamite's view on "creative rights" arising from "creative
process" sounds very much like that of some legal "moral rights" to
me. Not only his "that process cannot be owned except by the
creator" (an employee relationship may affect this), but some rights
are owed the author of the final work resulting from the process, in
this case a plan, though around the world they are various and
typically not economic rights.
From the OzNetLaw webpage: "Moral rights stem from the French
concept of droit morale which is based on the concept that a work
embodies the spirit of the author and is an extension of the
author's person and personality and therefore, an attack on the work
is equivalent to an attack on the author's person or personality."
In Oz Law, your staircases, very beautiful BTW, may be protected by
moral rights legislation also: "An artistic work forming part of or
attached to a building can be changed, relocated, demolished or
destroyed as long as the owner has made reasonable inquiries and
been unable to locate the author. If the author is located, the
owner must provide the author with a written notice stating the
owners intention and the notice must allow the author to have access
to the work within 3 weeks from the date of the notice, either for
making a record of it or consulting with the owner about the change,
relocation, demolition or destruction."
http://www.oznetlaw.net/facts.asp?action=content&categoryid=230
Further, "Distorting or altering a work in a way that prejudices the
author's honour or reputation would be an infringement of that
author's right of integrity. To infringe, the alteration must do
more than attract the author's dislike; it has to be prejudicial to
the author's honour or reputation." [
http://www.griffith.edu.au/ins/copyright/content_moral_rights.html]
Capt. Jim Orrell certainly trampled on Phil Bolger's then moral
though not legal "moral rights" on some occaisions, for instance
when JO had others alter a PB plan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights
Graeme
> Yes, I suppose. But he views it from the standpoint of creativeJim,
> rights...
yes, Dynamite's view on "creative rights" arising from "creative
process" sounds very much like that of some legal "moral rights" to
me. Not only his "that process cannot be owned except by the
creator" (an employee relationship may affect this), but some rights
are owed the author of the final work resulting from the process, in
this case a plan, though around the world they are various and
typically not economic rights.
From the OzNetLaw webpage: "Moral rights stem from the French
concept of droit morale which is based on the concept that a work
embodies the spirit of the author and is an extension of the
author's person and personality and therefore, an attack on the work
is equivalent to an attack on the author's person or personality."
In Oz Law, your staircases, very beautiful BTW, may be protected by
moral rights legislation also: "An artistic work forming part of or
attached to a building can be changed, relocated, demolished or
destroyed as long as the owner has made reasonable inquiries and
been unable to locate the author. If the author is located, the
owner must provide the author with a written notice stating the
owners intention and the notice must allow the author to have access
to the work within 3 weeks from the date of the notice, either for
making a record of it or consulting with the owner about the change,
relocation, demolition or destruction."
http://www.oznetlaw.net/facts.asp?action=content&categoryid=230
Further, "Distorting or altering a work in a way that prejudices the
author's honour or reputation would be an infringement of that
author's right of integrity. To infringe, the alteration must do
more than attract the author's dislike; it has to be prejudicial to
the author's honour or reputation." [
http://www.griffith.edu.au/ins/copyright/content_moral_rights.html]
Capt. Jim Orrell certainly trampled on Phil Bolger's then moral
though not legal "moral rights" on some occaisions, for instance
when JO had others alter a PB plan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights
Graeme
Thanks for the thanks, Graeme. Your post gives me the opportunity to
clarify that I'm not trying to take credit for setting up the
Group's database of Bolger plans. Whoever did (Bruce Hallman?) took
data from my web-pages, with my approval -- tacit or explicit, can't
remember which now.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
clarify that I'm not trying to take credit for setting up the
Group's database of Bolger plans. Whoever did (Bruce Hallman?) took
data from my web-pages, with my approval -- tacit or explicit, can't
remember which now.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>I'm
> Thanks very much Howard. That was/is greatly appreciated by many,
> sure. In the days before I was slowly able to acquire the booksmyself
> I found it a wonderful resource, and I still frequently (very) dipinto
> it.incoherent, and
>
> Your own database of Bolger books/designs at your webpage also was
> extremely helpful in making sense of the huge, somewhat
> amazing Bolger phenomenon (as was Maximo's).
> That would be moral rights?Graeme,
Yes, I suppose. But he views it from the standpoint of creative
rights. If through years of study someone gets images in thier mind
which are based in creativity that is, the knowledge of how those
images will form and function in a material world then though an
intuitive gift creates it on paper....that process cannot be owned
except by the creator.
Years ago I designed and built free standing oak stairs. I was paid
for the custom job and lost all rights to the design but each job was
custom and wouldn't be repeated. The owner of the house after the
project then owned the stair but not the ability to design or built
them.http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p163/jkess777/4.jpg
Dynamite has respect for the creative process and believes in this
case at least that the plans are rightfully owned by PB&F because the
creative process demands return of the "product..plans" to thier
creator.
Jim
> Dynamite believes no one but the designer truely owns the plans.That would be moral rights?
Graeme
Ken, it may be clear on the study plan -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/21900?threaded=1
(Do you also find small international paper converted currency
transactions a bother? I do.)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/21900?threaded=1
(Do you also find small international paper converted currency
transactions a bother? I do.)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
> Based on your description it seems that none of these Atkin boats are
> Seabright skiffs. Beachcomber 23 appears to be a typical shallow vee
> bottom skiff, and both Sea Runner 27 and Sea Rover 30 are "sea
> skiffs" -- very different creatures than Seabright skiffs.
> William Atkin wrote about the confusion between these two different
> types in his description of Scamp. I reproduced it here for the
> convenience of anyone who is interested:
> Texas Dories bought the plans outright from the designers, includingLocal news from a Galvestonian about Capt. Jim Orrell plans
> all rights to them. He didn't just license them. Texas Dories went
> out of business years ago
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/message/9500?l=1
The Atkins Orrell plans
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/message/734?threaded=1&p=2
Via
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DoryBoat/message/1223
> Let me make a correction John Kohnen is totally right.Understood, thanks for re-confirming this situation, now we are
> When the plans were bought by Capt. Orrell he bought
> the plans and all rights to them. They were totally out
> of the control of the designers.
clarifying the legal framework in a less ambiguous manner.
> But as metioned in the previuos post Dynamite believesWell ... if Capt. Jim Orrell owned the plans and all the rights that go
> no one but the designer truely owns the plans. From my
> understanding Capt. Orrell had a different mindset on the
> issue. That is why the quote from Dynamite these things
> are fuzzy.
with them EXCLUSIVELY, then Dynamite acquired these plans and all the
rights that go with them from Capt. Jim Orrell LEGALLY, the law says
Dynamite is the owner, not PB.
As the legal owner Dynamite can give or sell the original printed/drawn
plans to PB WITHOUT giving PB the copyrights to these plans. This is
apparently what he is doing since he is selling copies himself rather
than letting PB do this.
Bottom line:
If what you say is correct, PB may once again own the original plans,
but Dynamite still owns the copyrights -- and therefore Dynamite is the
legal source for their purchase.
I'm glad we got this cleared up!
:)
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Ken,
Let me make a correction John Kohnen is totally right. When the plans
were bought by Capt. Orrell he bought the plans and all rights to
them. They were totally out of the control of the designers. But as
metioned in the previuos post Dynamite believes no one but the
designer truely owns the plans. From my understanding Capt.Orrell had
a different mindset on the issue. That is why the quote from Dynamite
these things are fuzzy.
When Dynamite recieved the plans he sent them to PB who I suppose
didnt have copies.
Jim
Let me make a correction John Kohnen is totally right. When the plans
were bought by Capt. Orrell he bought the plans and all rights to
them. They were totally out of the control of the designers. But as
metioned in the previuos post Dynamite believes no one but the
designer truely owns the plans. From my understanding Capt.Orrell had
a different mindset on the issue. That is why the quote from Dynamite
these things are fuzzy.
When Dynamite recieved the plans he sent them to PB who I suppose
didnt have copies.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
>
> Ken,
> After reading my post I noticed I mispelled a word...fussy is
suppose
> to be fuzzy. I don't want to misquote Dynamite.
> I had a long talk with him the other day and he told me the facts
> concerning Texas Dories. I asked him if I could quote him and he
said
> in his eastern brough "sure".
> Dynamite is 79 and has been a hard working man of integrity all his
> life. PB knows how to select good friends and business partners.
> Thank goodness Capt. Orrell approached Dynamite with this offer 40
> years ago and Dynamite had the good sense to take the offer. Those
> plans could not be safer with anyone else but PB himself.
>
> Jim
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@>
> wrote:
> >
> > > In Dynamites opinion no one can actually own a
> > > Bolger plan because it came from PB's mind.
> >
> > Now I see where you were coming from when you said this earlier.
It
> > confused the issue for me, but now things seem a bit clearer,
> thanks.
> >
> >
> > > But Dynamite can sell the plans just as he does
> > > with the Instant Boats.
> >
> > Right, because he owns the rights to copy them and sell licensed
> copies.
> >
> >
> > So PB and Atkin both gave up their rights to these designs when
> they
> > sold them to Capt. Jim Orrell years ago ... and Dynamite Payson
> ended
> > up with these rights. Thank God! I'm just glad the folks at CSD
> > didn't get their hands on them ... :(
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Ken Grome
> > Bagacay Boatworks
> > www.bagacayboatworks.com
> >
>
PCB, or more precisely for some time now, PB&F, have the complete
picture. One need only write them... They are not in retail
design... Well, not very much.
If you wanted a complete picture of, say, art, architecture, or the
works of a particular artist or architect, and that too in some
overall context for better understanding, then it's at the least a
full blown course of tertiary study in the field that's required or
a lifetime interest equivalent! Further, when a work is commissioned
of an artist, guidelines and parameters may be set, but it is
understood that it is the vision and interpretation of the artist
that will be rendered and the final work may be difficult to fully
understand, and be itself open to interpretation.
When a medical doctor is consulted, the patient isn't expecting to
come away with a full understanding of medicine, but rather with an
appropriate and accurate response to their presentation, and maybe
with just a little comprehensible background information (if lucky).
PCB, I believe, has practised naval architecture in a similar
professional manner. As a client, one consults him, and he best
provides what his professional knowledge, skills, and practitioner's
art can deliver to suit the individual client's needs. Tom F Jones
wrote (2001) that Bolger said he estimated he wrote a thousand
letters per year - nearly three, each and every day! He wrote they
are not brief letters, a page or more, all nearly as succinct and
felicitously phrased as his books and the innumerable journal
articles going back to that on BLACKSNAKE in 1955. Most handwritten -
that's a professional-client relationship, not self-serve cash and
carry!
PCB is not a mass marketer, except for two instances of plan sales
for amateur builders, INSTANT BOATS and the long time defunct
_previously legitimate_ COMMON SENSE DESIGNS, and both those
enterprises were expressly set up to keep himself out of the retail
market place of simple, mostly small stock designs, and the
repetitive time consuming builder support that must go with sale of
such plans - if provided by a caring designer. Bear in mind:
"Most of these designs were made for amusement and to keep my
hand in on basic design during months of detail work on some
larger boat. They're offered here in the same spirit; I hope
that for each person that builds one of the boats a hundred
will get some pleasure of an evening imagining themselves
building or sailing one. I have seen some tragedies come of
ill-advised amateur boat-building on too big a scale, and even
among boats as small as these more projects are abandoned with
heartbreak than ever are finished."
[Very Small Boats -preface,1970]
(DUCKFLAT WOODEN BOATS is reputed in this forum to have also sold
_illegitimately_ reproduced Bolger plans - I'm not sure of that
arrangement, nor if it continues - IIRC PB&F also made mention of
it - ask PB&F.)
As far as Capt. Jim Orrell's, TEXAS DORIES, Bolger designed plans
go, if I have it straight: they were commissioned by Capt. J Orrell
solely for his own proprietry use and distribution. Many of Bolger's
plans have been commissioned under a similar business arrangement by
individuals such that they own the plans and may build one or maybe
more boats from them, but they may not distribute the plans as
neither may Bolger - this is why perhaps we will never see them, and
that may be a large number indeed.
Capt. Jim's arrangement was such that he owned and could distribute
the plans, but Bolger could not. At times Capt. Jim even got others
to modify a Bolger plan when Bolger had great reservations about the
proposals, such as motor wells and sailing rigs on dories, and
turned down the offer. How many of TEXAS DORIES "Bolger" plans are
pure Bolger? Apparently the SAMPAN EXPRESS series are - ask PCB. The
work for TEXAS DORIES provided PCB with necessary regular income in
his early design career from the 50's into the 60's as he
established and cultivated his own independent practice and built
his reputation. On the captain's passing Dynamite successfully
negotiated the purchase of the TEXAS DORIES plan set. Some of those
are actively marketed now by DOWN EAST DORIES.
So... PCB has written some books* with some designs featured in
them... the number of designs and concepts featured, many collected
from various journal articles, is but a small fraction of the
overall work, and a good few of those featured were only to
demonstrate some point of boat design or building as other factors
made the design either unsuitable or unlikely to ever be built -
even by us dreamers! If PCB was able to, and he received an order
with payment for a particular design, then he most likely would send
the plans (has done so) with no more ado - after all, he is a
lifelong strong libertarian!. However, if it was a query then he
would advise (has done so) - perhaps simply by indicating some stock
plans to choose from, or he may request further information, or the
enquiry may result in a lengthier correspondence as the process of
new design moves through the various phases.
With adjustment in real money terms, and for professional standing,
I think what held 38 years ago may still hold:
"Friendly (or unfriendly, for that matter) letters are always
welcom (sic), but if there comes a flood of correspondence I tend
to discard as much of it as can't be handled in a reasonable part
of the day, rather than give up designing for letter-writing;
letters containing money, say five dollars, are always answered or
at least will be if I'm alive, in health, and at liberty at the
time, and for that amount I will take a fair amount of trouble
commenting on proposed alterations and their consequences. If the
writer has found what I agree to be a mistake in the plans I'll
refund the money." [Very Small Boats - preface, 1970]
Graeme
* Bolger's Boat Books:
VERY SMALL BOATS, 1970 (seems mostly a paperback forerunner to SB)
SMALL BOATS, 1973
THE FOLDING SCHOONER and OTHER ADVENTURES in BOAT DESIGN, 1976
DIFFERENT BOATS, 1980
30-ODD BOATS 1982
BOLGER BOATS, 1983 (combines SB & FS)
100 SMALL BOAT RIGS 1984
BOATS with an OPEN MIND 1994
103 SMALL BOAT RIGS
Also:
Innumerable journal articles,and letters,including those to editors,
A number of novels with more or less boat content...
picture. One need only write them... They are not in retail
design... Well, not very much.
If you wanted a complete picture of, say, art, architecture, or the
works of a particular artist or architect, and that too in some
overall context for better understanding, then it's at the least a
full blown course of tertiary study in the field that's required or
a lifetime interest equivalent! Further, when a work is commissioned
of an artist, guidelines and parameters may be set, but it is
understood that it is the vision and interpretation of the artist
that will be rendered and the final work may be difficult to fully
understand, and be itself open to interpretation.
When a medical doctor is consulted, the patient isn't expecting to
come away with a full understanding of medicine, but rather with an
appropriate and accurate response to their presentation, and maybe
with just a little comprehensible background information (if lucky).
PCB, I believe, has practised naval architecture in a similar
professional manner. As a client, one consults him, and he best
provides what his professional knowledge, skills, and practitioner's
art can deliver to suit the individual client's needs. Tom F Jones
wrote (2001) that Bolger said he estimated he wrote a thousand
letters per year - nearly three, each and every day! He wrote they
are not brief letters, a page or more, all nearly as succinct and
felicitously phrased as his books and the innumerable journal
articles going back to that on BLACKSNAKE in 1955. Most handwritten -
that's a professional-client relationship, not self-serve cash and
carry!
PCB is not a mass marketer, except for two instances of plan sales
for amateur builders, INSTANT BOATS and the long time defunct
_previously legitimate_ COMMON SENSE DESIGNS, and both those
enterprises were expressly set up to keep himself out of the retail
market place of simple, mostly small stock designs, and the
repetitive time consuming builder support that must go with sale of
such plans - if provided by a caring designer. Bear in mind:
"Most of these designs were made for amusement and to keep my
hand in on basic design during months of detail work on some
larger boat. They're offered here in the same spirit; I hope
that for each person that builds one of the boats a hundred
will get some pleasure of an evening imagining themselves
building or sailing one. I have seen some tragedies come of
ill-advised amateur boat-building on too big a scale, and even
among boats as small as these more projects are abandoned with
heartbreak than ever are finished."
[Very Small Boats -preface,1970]
(DUCKFLAT WOODEN BOATS is reputed in this forum to have also sold
_illegitimately_ reproduced Bolger plans - I'm not sure of that
arrangement, nor if it continues - IIRC PB&F also made mention of
it - ask PB&F.)
As far as Capt. Jim Orrell's, TEXAS DORIES, Bolger designed plans
go, if I have it straight: they were commissioned by Capt. J Orrell
solely for his own proprietry use and distribution. Many of Bolger's
plans have been commissioned under a similar business arrangement by
individuals such that they own the plans and may build one or maybe
more boats from them, but they may not distribute the plans as
neither may Bolger - this is why perhaps we will never see them, and
that may be a large number indeed.
Capt. Jim's arrangement was such that he owned and could distribute
the plans, but Bolger could not. At times Capt. Jim even got others
to modify a Bolger plan when Bolger had great reservations about the
proposals, such as motor wells and sailing rigs on dories, and
turned down the offer. How many of TEXAS DORIES "Bolger" plans are
pure Bolger? Apparently the SAMPAN EXPRESS series are - ask PCB. The
work for TEXAS DORIES provided PCB with necessary regular income in
his early design career from the 50's into the 60's as he
established and cultivated his own independent practice and built
his reputation. On the captain's passing Dynamite successfully
negotiated the purchase of the TEXAS DORIES plan set. Some of those
are actively marketed now by DOWN EAST DORIES.
So... PCB has written some books* with some designs featured in
them... the number of designs and concepts featured, many collected
from various journal articles, is but a small fraction of the
overall work, and a good few of those featured were only to
demonstrate some point of boat design or building as other factors
made the design either unsuitable or unlikely to ever be built -
even by us dreamers! If PCB was able to, and he received an order
with payment for a particular design, then he most likely would send
the plans (has done so) with no more ado - after all, he is a
lifelong strong libertarian!. However, if it was a query then he
would advise (has done so) - perhaps simply by indicating some stock
plans to choose from, or he may request further information, or the
enquiry may result in a lengthier correspondence as the process of
new design moves through the various phases.
With adjustment in real money terms, and for professional standing,
I think what held 38 years ago may still hold:
"Friendly (or unfriendly, for that matter) letters are always
welcom (sic), but if there comes a flood of correspondence I tend
to discard as much of it as can't be handled in a reasonable part
of the day, rather than give up designing for letter-writing;
letters containing money, say five dollars, are always answered or
at least will be if I'm alive, in health, and at liberty at the
time, and for that amount I will take a fair amount of trouble
commenting on proposed alterations and their consequences. If the
writer has found what I agree to be a mistake in the plans I'll
refund the money." [Very Small Boats - preface, 1970]
Graeme
* Bolger's Boat Books:
VERY SMALL BOATS, 1970 (seems mostly a paperback forerunner to SB)
SMALL BOATS, 1973
THE FOLDING SCHOONER and OTHER ADVENTURES in BOAT DESIGN, 1976
DIFFERENT BOATS, 1980
30-ODD BOATS 1982
BOLGER BOATS, 1983 (combines SB & FS)
100 SMALL BOAT RIGS 1984
BOATS with an OPEN MIND 1994
103 SMALL BOAT RIGS
Also:
Innumerable journal articles,and letters,including those to editors,
A number of novels with more or less boat content...
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, dave seeton <daveseeton@...> wrote:
>
> I'm confuzed, I've been in retail my whole life. I buy a product,
I mark it up & I sell it. If I bought it illegally (which I don't) I
pay a fine or go to jail & life goes on.
> I can't believe a person can design litterally 100's of boats yet
no one can figure out who can sell the plans & who can't.
> No one knows exactly what he sells, what it looks like, what it
coast, or where its for sale.
> In the grand sceam of things boat design plays a relitavelly
small part. So how can it become sooooo complicated? At our level it
is after all a TOY, something for people with too much time & too
much money.
> Just think how wonderful it would be for the 100's of Bolger
followers if they had a complete picture of just what the heck they
were following.
Ken,
After reading my post I noticed I mispelled a word...fussy is suppose
to be fuzzy. I don't want to misquote Dynamite.
I had a long talk with him the other day and he told me the facts
concerning Texas Dories. I asked him if I could quote him and he said
in his eastern brough "sure".
Dynamite is 79 and has been a hard working man of integrity all his
life. PB knows how to select good friends and business partners.
Thank goodness Capt. Orrell approached Dynamite with this offer 40
years ago and Dynamite had the good sense to take the offer. Those
plans could not be safer with anyone else but PB himself.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
After reading my post I noticed I mispelled a word...fussy is suppose
to be fuzzy. I don't want to misquote Dynamite.
I had a long talk with him the other day and he told me the facts
concerning Texas Dories. I asked him if I could quote him and he said
in his eastern brough "sure".
Dynamite is 79 and has been a hard working man of integrity all his
life. PB knows how to select good friends and business partners.
Thank goodness Capt. Orrell approached Dynamite with this offer 40
years ago and Dynamite had the good sense to take the offer. Those
plans could not be safer with anyone else but PB himself.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
>thanks.
> > In Dynamites opinion no one can actually own a
> > Bolger plan because it came from PB's mind.
>
> Now I see where you were coming from when you said this earlier. It
> confused the issue for me, but now things seem a bit clearer,
>copies.
>
> > But Dynamite can sell the plans just as he does
> > with the Instant Boats.
>
> Right, because he owns the rights to copy them and sell licensed
>they
>
> So PB and Atkin both gave up their rights to these designs when
> sold them to Capt. Jim Orrell years ago ... and Dynamite Paysonended
> up with these rights. Thank God! I'm just glad the folks at CSD
> didn't get their hands on them ... :(
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply!
Based on your description it seems that none of these Atkin boats are
Seabright skiffs. Beachcomber 23 appears to be a typical shallow vee
bottom skiff, and both Sea Runner 27 and Sea Rover 30 are "sea
skiffs" -- very different creatures than Seabright skiffs.
William Atkin wrote about the confusion between these two different
types in his description of Scamp. I reproduced it here for the
convenience of anyone who is interested:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scamp
A 19' 6 3/4" Sea Skiff
By William & John Atkin
A Utility Sea Skiff
It may be of interest to mention that a sea skiff is a round-bilge boat
having the usual vertical keel and deadwood. In other words, in model
the sea skiff is the conventional type of motorboat in general use.
Scamp, this latest of MoToR BoatinG's large family of boats, is a sea
skiff.
There is always confusion between the characteristics of a sea skiff and
a Seabright skiff. This confusion is further complicated by folks
sometimes describing a sea skiff as a Jersey skiff. I would say that a
Jersey skiff is a flat-bottomed boat such as those used for hand-raking
clams and in other similar water pursuits. A boat quite unlike Scamp.
A Seabright skiff is a round-bilge, or sometimes V-bottomed boat. Rather
than the vertical keel and deadwood the Seabright skiff has a box, or
hollow deadwood; and the keel, rather than being vertical, is flat in
an athwartship direction and either straight or slightly curved in a
fore and aft direction.
Both the sea skiff and Seabright skiff are excellent seagoers and can be
depended upon to perform exceptionally well in either rough or smooth
water; correctly designed they will be dry, safe and comfortable in any
kind of going.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the first part of the description, the rest is located here:
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/Scamp.html
Thansks again Mike, you cleared this up for me once and for all, and I
sincerely appreciate it!
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Thanks for your reply!
Based on your description it seems that none of these Atkin boats are
Seabright skiffs. Beachcomber 23 appears to be a typical shallow vee
bottom skiff, and both Sea Runner 27 and Sea Rover 30 are "sea
skiffs" -- very different creatures than Seabright skiffs.
William Atkin wrote about the confusion between these two different
types in his description of Scamp. I reproduced it here for the
convenience of anyone who is interested:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scamp
A 19' 6 3/4" Sea Skiff
By William & John Atkin
A Utility Sea Skiff
It may be of interest to mention that a sea skiff is a round-bilge boat
having the usual vertical keel and deadwood. In other words, in model
the sea skiff is the conventional type of motorboat in general use.
Scamp, this latest of MoToR BoatinG's large family of boats, is a sea
skiff.
There is always confusion between the characteristics of a sea skiff and
a Seabright skiff. This confusion is further complicated by folks
sometimes describing a sea skiff as a Jersey skiff. I would say that a
Jersey skiff is a flat-bottomed boat such as those used for hand-raking
clams and in other similar water pursuits. A boat quite unlike Scamp.
A Seabright skiff is a round-bilge, or sometimes V-bottomed boat. Rather
than the vertical keel and deadwood the Seabright skiff has a box, or
hollow deadwood; and the keel, rather than being vertical, is flat in
an athwartship direction and either straight or slightly curved in a
fore and aft direction.
Both the sea skiff and Seabright skiff are excellent seagoers and can be
depended upon to perform exceptionally well in either rough or smooth
water; correctly designed they will be dry, safe and comfortable in any
kind of going.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the first part of the description, the rest is located here:
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/Scamp.html
Thansks again Mike, you cleared this up for me once and for all, and I
sincerely appreciate it!
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
> I have the Texas Dory study sheets for three Atkin boats: Plan No. 8,
> Beachcomber "23" which John Atkin apparently called "Dedrise 23" is a
> shallow v-bottom outboard utility with motor well. Plan No. 30, Sea
> Runner 27, and plan 31, Sea Rover 30 are described as "True
> sea/skiff[s] with dory flare"and the sections show a round bilge and
> flat bottom. Inboard power. Does that make them Seabright skiffs?
> There's a scan of the Sea Runner 27 sheet in
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Texas%20D
>ories/ The scan resolution doesn't show what seems to be a substantial
> keel or deadwood in the sections drawing.
> All of this description refers to 40 year old study sheets that don't
> necessarily represent what Payson is selling today.
>
> - Mike
> In Dynamites opinion no one can actually own aNow I see where you were coming from when you said this earlier. It
> Bolger plan because it came from PB's mind.
confused the issue for me, but now things seem a bit clearer, thanks.
> But Dynamite can sell the plans just as he doesRight, because he owns the rights to copy them and sell licensed copies.
> with the Instant Boats.
So PB and Atkin both gave up their rights to these designs when they
sold them to Capt. Jim Orrell years ago ... and Dynamite Payson ended
up with these rights. Thank God! I'm just glad the folks at CSD
didn't get their hands on them ... :(
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
I don't think Dynamite would sell plans unless he actually has the
rights to sell them, so I'm assuming he has this right -- either from
PB directly or from his purchase of these rights from Capt. Jim Orrell.
Unfortunately it seems we are getting two or three different stories
here. Maybe it would be better to ask PB or Dynamite Payson to explain
things, then we won't have to wonder or theorize about what is actually
going on here.
A simple explanation from one of them might go a long ways towards
setting people's minds at ease, especially after the way CSD has been
cheating Phil Bolger, Jim Michalak and possibly others for so
long ... :(
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
rights to sell them, so I'm assuming he has this right -- either from
PB directly or from his purchase of these rights from Capt. Jim Orrell.
Unfortunately it seems we are getting two or three different stories
here. Maybe it would be better to ask PB or Dynamite Payson to explain
things, then we won't have to wonder or theorize about what is actually
going on here.
A simple explanation from one of them might go a long ways towards
setting people's minds at ease, especially after the way CSD has been
cheating Phil Bolger, Jim Michalak and possibly others for so
long ... :(
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
> --- dave seeton <daveseeton@...> wrote:
> > I buy a product, I mark it up & I sell it.
> > If I bought it illegally (which I don't) I pay a fine or go to jail
> > & life goes on.
> > I can't believe a person can design litterally 100's of boats
> > yet no one can figure out who can sell the plans & who can't.
>
> It is not about selling the plans, i.e. the printed piece of paper.
> It is about the paying fees for study/read the design, and for using
> that design to build a boat.
>
> The difference to your merchandise in retail: Once you sold
> something, you don't own it anymore, and you can't sell the same
> piece twice.
>
> Phil can give many builders the right to build a boat to his design,
> and get money for it. He doesn't use that right, and can "sell" the
> right to build a single boat as often as he wants, without the need
> to produce anything again.
> Trading copyright protected plans is therefore not really "selling",
> but collecting fees.
>
> As I see it/understand it: Texas Dories bought/paid for the right to
> use those designs without additional fees. They could build as many
> boats as they wanted. Texas is out of business, Dynamite has got
> rightfully hold of the plans (the piece of paper). That doesn't
> automatically mean, that he has the right to build according to those
> plans, or that he can re-sell the right to build boats according
> those plans. This everything would depend on the original contract
> between PCB&F and Texas Dories, i.e. what is stipulated there about
> Texas' right to re-sell the rights, etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
Stefan,
Right...copyright...means the ability to copy the original for
resale. Texas Dories (for these particlar boats) bought the
copyrights to the Atkins and Bolger plans. Therefore, no continual
charge per boat and the ability to copy and sell the plans. In
Dynamites oppinion no one can actually own a Bolger plan because it
came from PB's mind. But Dynamite can sell the plans just as he does
with the Instant Boats.
I know this can be a fussy issue and has been for years but contracts
between designers and distributors/builders are between them alone.
That fact cannot be made clearer than through Instant Boats. The
books would not have been written including the plans without the
full consent of PB. The contract between PB and Dynamite concerning
Instant Boats is frankly, in my opinion, none of my business, as is
the contract between PB, Atkins and others with Texas Dories.
Years ago Dynamite was building and advertising the Gloucester Gull
Dories. He got a letter from Capt. Jim Orrell owner of Texas Dories.
In it the Capt. told Dynamite he couldn't use that name for the boat
because he owned it. He also stated that he could either stop calling
it by that name or go into business with him. Dynamite selected the
second and Capt. Orrell sent him two trunks full of plans. Dynamite
became the business partner of Capt. Jim Orrell and had equal rights
to the plans in the trunks. Dynamite has the letter and copies of the
transactions with the Capt. but again in my oopinion, the particulars
are none of my business.
I hope I haven't confused anyone with this post but rather shed a
little light on the situation yet, I suppose as Dynamite says, "These
things(copyright,intellectual property,ect.) are always fussy and
have been discussed for years".
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
Right...copyright...means the ability to copy the original for
resale. Texas Dories (for these particlar boats) bought the
copyrights to the Atkins and Bolger plans. Therefore, no continual
charge per boat and the ability to copy and sell the plans. In
Dynamites oppinion no one can actually own a Bolger plan because it
came from PB's mind. But Dynamite can sell the plans just as he does
with the Instant Boats.
I know this can be a fussy issue and has been for years but contracts
between designers and distributors/builders are between them alone.
That fact cannot be made clearer than through Instant Boats. The
books would not have been written including the plans without the
full consent of PB. The contract between PB and Dynamite concerning
Instant Boats is frankly, in my opinion, none of my business, as is
the contract between PB, Atkins and others with Texas Dories.
Years ago Dynamite was building and advertising the Gloucester Gull
Dories. He got a letter from Capt. Jim Orrell owner of Texas Dories.
In it the Capt. told Dynamite he couldn't use that name for the boat
because he owned it. He also stated that he could either stop calling
it by that name or go into business with him. Dynamite selected the
second and Capt. Orrell sent him two trunks full of plans. Dynamite
became the business partner of Capt. Jim Orrell and had equal rights
to the plans in the trunks. Dynamite has the letter and copies of the
transactions with the Capt. but again in my oopinion, the particulars
are none of my business.
I hope I haven't confused anyone with this post but rather shed a
little light on the situation yet, I suppose as Dynamite says, "These
things(copyright,intellectual property,ect.) are always fussy and
have been discussed for years".
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
>jail
> --- dave seeton <daveseeton@> wrote:
> > I buy a product, I mark it up & I sell it.
> > If I bought it illegally (which I don't) I pay a fine or go to
> > & life goes on.something,
> > I can't believe a person can design litterally 100's of boats
> > yet no one can figure out who can sell the plans & who can't.
>
> It is not about selling the plans, i.e. the printed piece of paper.
> It is about the paying fees for study/read the design, and for using
> that design to build a boat.
>
> The difference to your merchandise in retail: Once you sold
> you don't own it anymore, and you can't sell the same piece twice.to
>
> Phil can give many builders the right to build a boat to his design,
> and get money for it. He doesn't use that right, and can "sell" the
> right to build a single boat as often as he wants, without the need
> produce anything again.those
> Trading copyright protected plans is therefore not really "selling",
> but collecting fees.
>
> As I see it/understand it: Texas Dories bought/paid for the right to
> use those designs without additional fees. They could build as many
> boats as they wanted. Texas is out of business, Dynamite has got
> rightfully hold of the plans (the piece of paper). That doesn't
> automatically mean, that he has the right to build according to
> plans, or that he can re-sell the right to build boats accordingthose
> plans. This everything would depend on the original contract between
> PCB&F and Texas Dories, i.e. what is stipulated there about Texas'
> right to re-sell the rights, etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
>
I have the Texas Dory study sheets for three Atkin boats: Plan No. 8,
Beachcomber "23" which John Atkin apparently called "Dedrise 23" is a
shallow v-bottom outboard utility with motor well. Plan No. 30, Sea
Runner 27, and plan 31, Sea Rover 30 are described as "True sea/skiff[s]
with dory flare"and the sections show a round bilge and flat bottom.
Inboard power. Does that make them Seabright skiffs? There's a scan of
the Sea Runner 27 sheet in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Texas%20Dories/
The scan resolution doesn't show what seems to be a substantial keel or
deadwood in the sections drawing.
All of this description refers to 40 year old study sheets that don't
necessarily represent what Payson is selling today.
- Mike
Kenneth Grome wrote:
Beachcomber "23" which John Atkin apparently called "Dedrise 23" is a
shallow v-bottom outboard utility with motor well. Plan No. 30, Sea
Runner 27, and plan 31, Sea Rover 30 are described as "True sea/skiff[s]
with dory flare"and the sections show a round bilge and flat bottom.
Inboard power. Does that make them Seabright skiffs? There's a scan of
the Sea Runner 27 sheet in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Texas%20Dories/
The scan resolution doesn't show what seems to be a substantial keel or
deadwood in the sections drawing.
All of this description refers to 40 year old study sheets that don't
necessarily represent what Payson is selling today.
- Mike
Kenneth Grome wrote:
>> Dynamite sent me a pamphlet but my scanner
>> isn't working. That is why Alan Speakman scanned
>> those profiles on the link. Although all the boats
>> didnt make it. I would suggest getting the catalog
>> from Dynamite for $3.
>>
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Since you have the pamphlet yourself, maybe you can tell me if any of
> the three Atkin boats are Seabright skiffs? Someone suggested this the
> other day so I asked Dynamite via email. Unfortunately he ignored this
> question, although he did respond with his plans price -- $40 each.
>
> My particular interest is in Atkin Seabright skiffs. Someone suggested
> earlier that the Atkin boats may be Seabright skiffs, so I'm hoping to
> find someone who can confirm or deny this ASAP. If it is I can buy the
> plans immediately.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks Stefan, that cleared it all up for me.
I'm sure glad I sell something simple like fireworks, I sell it, you buy it, you light it and it burns ups, you buy some more.
I know I'm makeing light of something thats very serious to people in the design business but,,, there are a lot of people in that industry who dont seem to have this much dificulty.
Also if I were selling a produce that was that intangled I would want to have a very detailed list with pic of what it was, what it looked like & how much it is. And to the best of my knoledge that doesnt exist for Bolger.
Dave
Stefan Probst <stefan.probst@opticom.v-nam.net> wrote: --- dave seeton <daveseeton@...> wrote:
It is about the paying fees for study/read the design, and for using
that design to build a boat.
The difference to your merchandise in retail: Once you sold something,
you don't own it anymore, and you can't sell the same piece twice.
Phil can give many builders the right to build a boat to his design,
and get money for it. He doesn't use that right, and can "sell" the
right to build a single boat as often as he wants, without the need to
produce anything again.
Trading copyright protected plans is therefore not really "selling",
but collecting fees.
As I see it/understand it: Texas Dories bought/paid for the right to
use those designs without additional fees. They could build as many
boats as they wanted. Texas is out of business, Dynamite has got
rightfully hold of the plans (the piece of paper). That doesn't
automatically mean, that he has the right to build according to those
plans, or that he can re-sell the right to build boats according those
plans. This everything would depend on the original contract between
PCB&F and Texas Dories, i.e. what is stipulated there about Texas'
right to re-sell the rights, etc.
Cheers,
Stefan
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm sure glad I sell something simple like fireworks, I sell it, you buy it, you light it and it burns ups, you buy some more.
I know I'm makeing light of something thats very serious to people in the design business but,,, there are a lot of people in that industry who dont seem to have this much dificulty.
Also if I were selling a produce that was that intangled I would want to have a very detailed list with pic of what it was, what it looked like & how much it is. And to the best of my knoledge that doesnt exist for Bolger.
Dave
Stefan Probst <stefan.probst@opticom.v-nam.net> wrote: --- dave seeton <daveseeton@...> wrote:
> I buy a product, I mark it up & I sell it.It is not about selling the plans, i.e. the printed piece of paper.
> If I bought it illegally (which I don't) I pay a fine or go to jail
> & life goes on.
> I can't believe a person can design litterally 100's of boats
> yet no one can figure out who can sell the plans & who can't.
It is about the paying fees for study/read the design, and for using
that design to build a boat.
The difference to your merchandise in retail: Once you sold something,
you don't own it anymore, and you can't sell the same piece twice.
Phil can give many builders the right to build a boat to his design,
and get money for it. He doesn't use that right, and can "sell" the
right to build a single boat as often as he wants, without the need to
produce anything again.
Trading copyright protected plans is therefore not really "selling",
but collecting fees.
As I see it/understand it: Texas Dories bought/paid for the right to
use those designs without additional fees. They could build as many
boats as they wanted. Texas is out of business, Dynamite has got
rightfully hold of the plans (the piece of paper). That doesn't
automatically mean, that he has the right to build according to those
plans, or that he can re-sell the right to build boats according those
plans. This everything would depend on the original contract between
PCB&F and Texas Dories, i.e. what is stipulated there about Texas'
right to re-sell the rights, etc.
Cheers,
Stefan
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- dave seeton <daveseeton@...> wrote:
It is about the paying fees for study/read the design, and for using
that design to build a boat.
The difference to your merchandise in retail: Once you sold something,
you don't own it anymore, and you can't sell the same piece twice.
Phil can give many builders the right to build a boat to his design,
and get money for it. He doesn't use that right, and can "sell" the
right to build a single boat as often as he wants, without the need to
produce anything again.
Trading copyright protected plans is therefore not really "selling",
but collecting fees.
As I see it/understand it: Texas Dories bought/paid for the right to
use those designs without additional fees. They could build as many
boats as they wanted. Texas is out of business, Dynamite has got
rightfully hold of the plans (the piece of paper). That doesn't
automatically mean, that he has the right to build according to those
plans, or that he can re-sell the right to build boats according those
plans. This everything would depend on the original contract between
PCB&F and Texas Dories, i.e. what is stipulated there about Texas'
right to re-sell the rights, etc.
Cheers,
Stefan
> I buy a product, I mark it up & I sell it.It is not about selling the plans, i.e. the printed piece of paper.
> If I bought it illegally (which I don't) I pay a fine or go to jail
> & life goes on.
> I can't believe a person can design litterally 100's of boats
> yet no one can figure out who can sell the plans & who can't.
It is about the paying fees for study/read the design, and for using
that design to build a boat.
The difference to your merchandise in retail: Once you sold something,
you don't own it anymore, and you can't sell the same piece twice.
Phil can give many builders the right to build a boat to his design,
and get money for it. He doesn't use that right, and can "sell" the
right to build a single boat as often as he wants, without the need to
produce anything again.
Trading copyright protected plans is therefore not really "selling",
but collecting fees.
As I see it/understand it: Texas Dories bought/paid for the right to
use those designs without additional fees. They could build as many
boats as they wanted. Texas is out of business, Dynamite has got
rightfully hold of the plans (the piece of paper). That doesn't
automatically mean, that he has the right to build according to those
plans, or that he can re-sell the right to build boats according those
plans. This everything would depend on the original contract between
PCB&F and Texas Dories, i.e. what is stipulated there about Texas'
right to re-sell the rights, etc.
Cheers,
Stefan
Thanks very much Howard. That was/is greatly appreciated by many, I'm
sure. In the days before I was slowly able to acquire the books myself
I found it a wonderful resource, and I still frequently (very) dip into
it.
Your own database of Bolger books/designs at your webpage also was
extremely helpful in making sense of the huge, somewhat incoherent, and
amazing Bolger phenomenon (as was Maximo's).
Cheers
Graeme
PS. Personally, the "making sense" continues as a work in progress...
Well,,, it certainly continues...
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<howardstephenson@...> wrote:
sure. In the days before I was slowly able to acquire the books myself
I found it a wonderful resource, and I still frequently (very) dip into
it.
Your own database of Bolger books/designs at your webpage also was
extremely helpful in making sense of the huge, somewhat incoherent, and
amazing Bolger phenomenon (as was Maximo's).
Cheers
Graeme
PS. Personally, the "making sense" continues as a work in progress...
Well,,, it certainly continues...
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<howardstephenson@...> wrote:
> ..I entered most of the data on the...
>
I'm confuzed, I've been in retail my whole life. I buy a product, I mark it up & I sell it. If I bought it illegally (which I don't) I pay a fine or go to jail & life goes on. I can't believe a person can design litterally 100's of boats yet no one can figure out who can sell the plans & who can't. No one knows exactly what he sells, what it looks like, what it coast, or where its for sale. In the grand sceam of things boat design plays a relitavelly small part. So how can it become sooooo complicated? At our level it is after all a TOY, something for people with too much time & too much money. Just think how wonderful it would be for the 100's of Bolger followers if they had a complete picture of just what the heck they were following.
Dave Seeton
Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote: Speaking of plans and rights. I wonder if other then the USCG paying
close attention to this boat underway, If this is boat someone would
infringe upon if they made a copy? Check out the way the bow design
reacts to the waves...
Youtube Video Linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=OrAqvdvTCN4&mode=related&search=
Dave Seeton
Michael <skipper-mike@...> wrote: Speaking of plans and rights. I wonder if other then the USCG paying
close attention to this boat underway, If this is boat someone would
infringe upon if they made a copy? Check out the way the bow design
reacts to the waves...
Youtube Video Linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=OrAqvdvTCN4&mode=related&search=
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
>
> Kenneth,
> Dynamite sent me a pamphlet but my scanner isn't working. That is
why
> Alan Speakman scanned those profiles on the link. Although all the
> boats didnt make it.
> I would suggest getting the catalog from Dynamite for $3. It cost
him
> $1.50 to send so it isnt a money question. I believe you will have
> everything I have with the catalog. At any rate we are not suppose
to
> post anything but the cartoons.
> Dynamite believes that although the plans and rights were sold to
> Texas Dories over 40 years ago they still belong to PB. Therefore,
he
> sent him everything in the trunks Yet, Dynamite still maintains the
> ability to sell the Texas Dory plans.
> There were other Bolger plans in the trunks which Dynamite will not
> sell. Concerning those plans people should contact PB. PB only
> mentioned his desire for the Sanpam series to get exposure. The
> exception is the Oceanic series which are included in the
catalog...a
> Bolger series.
>
> Jim
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > I agree that many old designs do not need modification. PB has
> improved
> > some of his designs, but this certainly does not mean they all
need
> > improvement!
> >
> > I really wish there were more views of these "newly released old
> > designs" available online, and also the design specs. Any chance
> of
> > getting this info posted online any time soon?
> >
> > I emailed Dynamite asking the following question because with the
> right
> > answers I would buy some of these plans immediately:
> >
> > > My guess is that Sea Rover and Sea Runner
> > > are both Atkin designs, is this correct? Â If so,
> > > are either of these boats Seabright skiffs?
> >
> > ... but this is all he said in his reply:
> >
> > > Ken, the plans are $40. each.
> > > H. H. Payson.
> >
> > For a guy who wants to sell these plans he has a funny way of
> ignoring
> > questions posed by potential buyers.
> >
> > Usually I inform myself about the boats I like by reviewing the
> wealth
> > of information post on the seller's web site, but this is not an
> option
> > here so I guess I'm stuck until this info becomes available.
> > Fortunately it's no problem for me to wait ... :)
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Ken Grome
> > Bagacay Boatworks
> > www.bagacayboatworks.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Ken,
> > > Concerning the Sampan series, I have a testimonial of a man who
> built
> > > the 19' model taking out a friend on the boat who sold aluminum
> > > fishing boats, which he advertised as the "best" boat. That was
> until
> > > he went fishing in this design. PB designed a fantastic boat in
> the
> > > Sampan series.
> > >
> > > Once Dynamite gained control in his words,"The "Sampan Express"
> > > series are multi chined like Diablo, Gypsy, ect and have the
same
> > > designer Phil bolger who would like to see them continued".
> > >
> > > This series was not discarded because of flaws in design but
> rather
> > > sold and out of the control of PB to continue. Thank goodness
> > > Dynamite got them and he and PB are such good friends.
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
>
---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Dynamite sent me a pamphlet but my scannerHi Jim,
> isn't working. That is why Alan Speakman scanned
> those profiles on the link. Although all the boats
> didnt make it. I would suggest getting the catalog
> from Dynamite for $3.
Since you have the pamphlet yourself, maybe you can tell me if any of
the three Atkin boats are Seabright skiffs? Someone suggested this the
other day so I asked Dynamite via email. Unfortunately he ignored this
question, although he did respond with his plans price -- $40 each.
My particular interest is in Atkin Seabright skiffs. Someone suggested
earlier that the Atkin boats may be Seabright skiffs, so I'm hoping to
find someone who can confirm or deny this ASAP. If it is I can buy the
plans immediately.
Thanks!
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Speaking of plans and rights. I wonder if other then the USCG paying
close attention to this boat underway, If this is boat someone would
infringe upon if they made a copy? Check out the way the bow design
reacts to the waves...
Youtube Video Linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=OrAqvdvTCN4&mode=related&search=
close attention to this boat underway, If this is boat someone would
infringe upon if they made a copy? Check out the way the bow design
reacts to the waves...
Youtube Video Linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=OrAqvdvTCN4&mode=related&search=
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
>
> Kenneth,
> Dynamite sent me a pamphlet but my scanner isn't working. That is
why
> Alan Speakman scanned those profiles on the link. Although all the
> boats didnt make it.
> I would suggest getting the catalog from Dynamite for $3. It cost
him
> $1.50 to send so it isnt a money question. I believe you will have
> everything I have with the catalog. At any rate we are not suppose
to
> post anything but the cartoons.
> Dynamite believes that although the plans and rights were sold to
> Texas Dories over 40 years ago they still belong to PB. Therefore,
he
> sent him everything in the trunks Yet, Dynamite still maintains the
> ability to sell the Texas Dory plans.
> There were other Bolger plans in the trunks which Dynamite will not
> sell. Concerning those plans people should contact PB. PB only
> mentioned his desire for the Sanpam series to get exposure. The
> exception is the Oceanic series which are included in the
catalog...a
> Bolger series.
>
> Jim
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > I agree that many old designs do not need modification. PB has
> improved
> > some of his designs, but this certainly does not mean they all
need
> > improvement!
> >
> > I really wish there were more views of these "newly released old
> > designs" available online, and also the design specs. Any chance
> of
> > getting this info posted online any time soon?
> >
> > I emailed Dynamite asking the following question because with the
> right
> > answers I would buy some of these plans immediately:
> >
> > > My guess is that Sea Rover and Sea Runner
> > > are both Atkin designs, is this correct? Â If so,
> > > are either of these boats Seabright skiffs?
> >
> > ... but this is all he said in his reply:
> >
> > > Ken, the plans are $40. each.
> > > H. H. Payson.
> >
> > For a guy who wants to sell these plans he has a funny way of
> ignoring
> > questions posed by potential buyers.
> >
> > Usually I inform myself about the boats I like by reviewing the
> wealth
> > of information post on the seller's web site, but this is not an
> option
> > here so I guess I'm stuck until this info becomes available.
> > Fortunately it's no problem for me to wait ... :)
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Ken Grome
> > Bagacay Boatworks
> > www.bagacayboatworks.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Ken,
> > > Concerning the Sampan series, I have a testimonial of a man who
> built
> > > the 19' model taking out a friend on the boat who sold aluminum
> > > fishing boats, which he advertised as the "best" boat. That was
> until
> > > he went fishing in this design. PB designed a fantastic boat in
> the
> > > Sampan series.
> > >
> > > Once Dynamite gained control in his words,"The "Sampan Express"
> > > series are multi chined like Diablo, Gypsy, ect and have the
same
> > > designer Phil bolger who would like to see them continued".
> > >
> > > This series was not discarded because of flaws in design but
> rather
> > > sold and out of the control of PB to continue. Thank goodness
> > > Dynamite got them and he and PB are such good friends.
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
>
Ken,
Mike has it right on this thread...except for the added plans to the
catalog...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/55243
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
Mike has it right on this thread...except for the added plans to the
catalog...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/55243
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
>improved
> Hi Jim,
>
> I agree that many old designs do not need modification. PB has
> some of his designs, but this certainly does not mean they all needof
> improvement!
>
> I really wish there were more views of these "newly released old
> designs" available online, and also the design specs. Any chance
> getting this info posted online any time soon?right
>
> I emailed Dynamite asking the following question because with the
> answers I would buy some of these plans immediately:ignoring
>
> > My guess is that Sea Rover and Sea Runner
> > are both Atkin designs, is this correct? Â If so,
> > are either of these boats Seabright skiffs?
>
> ... but this is all he said in his reply:
>
> > Ken, the plans are $40. each.
> > H. H. Payson.
>
> For a guy who wants to sell these plans he has a funny way of
> questions posed by potential buyers.wealth
>
> Usually I inform myself about the boats I like by reviewing the
> of information post on the seller's web site, but this is not anoption
> here so I guess I'm stuck until this info becomes available.built
> Fortunately it's no problem for me to wait ... :)
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ken,
> > Concerning the Sampan series, I have a testimonial of a man who
> > the 19' model taking out a friend on the boat who sold aluminumuntil
> > fishing boats, which he advertised as the "best" boat. That was
> > he went fishing in this design. PB designed a fantastic boat inthe
> > Sampan series.rather
> >
> > Once Dynamite gained control in his words,"The "Sampan Express"
> > series are multi chined like Diablo, Gypsy, ect and have the same
> > designer Phil bolger who would like to see them continued".
> >
> > This series was not discarded because of flaws in design but
> > sold and out of the control of PB to continue. Thank goodness
> > Dynamite got them and he and PB are such good friends.
> >
> > Jim
>
Kenneth,
Dynamite sent me a pamphlet but my scanner isn't working. That is why
Alan Speakman scanned those profiles on the link. Although all the
boats didnt make it.
I would suggest getting the catalog from Dynamite for $3. It cost him
$1.50 to send so it isnt a money question. I believe you will have
everything I have with the catalog. At any rate we are not suppose to
post anything but the cartoons.
Dynamite believes that although the plans and rights were sold to
Texas Dories over 40 years ago they still belong to PB. Therefore, he
sent him everything in the trunks Yet, Dynamite still maintains the
ability to sell the Texas Dory plans.
There were other Bolger plans in the trunks which Dynamite will not
sell. Concerning those plans people should contact PB. PB only
mentioned his desire for the Sanpam series to get exposure. The
exception is the Oceanic series which are included in the catalog...a
Bolger series.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
Dynamite sent me a pamphlet but my scanner isn't working. That is why
Alan Speakman scanned those profiles on the link. Although all the
boats didnt make it.
I would suggest getting the catalog from Dynamite for $3. It cost him
$1.50 to send so it isnt a money question. I believe you will have
everything I have with the catalog. At any rate we are not suppose to
post anything but the cartoons.
Dynamite believes that although the plans and rights were sold to
Texas Dories over 40 years ago they still belong to PB. Therefore, he
sent him everything in the trunks Yet, Dynamite still maintains the
ability to sell the Texas Dory plans.
There were other Bolger plans in the trunks which Dynamite will not
sell. Concerning those plans people should contact PB. PB only
mentioned his desire for the Sanpam series to get exposure. The
exception is the Oceanic series which are included in the catalog...a
Bolger series.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
>improved
> Hi Jim,
>
> I agree that many old designs do not need modification. PB has
> some of his designs, but this certainly does not mean they all needof
> improvement!
>
> I really wish there were more views of these "newly released old
> designs" available online, and also the design specs. Any chance
> getting this info posted online any time soon?right
>
> I emailed Dynamite asking the following question because with the
> answers I would buy some of these plans immediately:ignoring
>
> > My guess is that Sea Rover and Sea Runner
> > are both Atkin designs, is this correct? Â If so,
> > are either of these boats Seabright skiffs?
>
> ... but this is all he said in his reply:
>
> > Ken, the plans are $40. each.
> > H. H. Payson.
>
> For a guy who wants to sell these plans he has a funny way of
> questions posed by potential buyers.wealth
>
> Usually I inform myself about the boats I like by reviewing the
> of information post on the seller's web site, but this is not anoption
> here so I guess I'm stuck until this info becomes available.built
> Fortunately it's no problem for me to wait ... :)
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ken,
> > Concerning the Sampan series, I have a testimonial of a man who
> > the 19' model taking out a friend on the boat who sold aluminumuntil
> > fishing boats, which he advertised as the "best" boat. That was
> > he went fishing in this design. PB designed a fantastic boat inthe
> > Sampan series.rather
> >
> > Once Dynamite gained control in his words,"The "Sampan Express"
> > series are multi chined like Diablo, Gypsy, ect and have the same
> > designer Phil bolger who would like to see them continued".
> >
> > This series was not discarded because of flaws in design but
> > sold and out of the control of PB to continue. Thank goodness
> > Dynamite got them and he and PB are such good friends.
> >
> > Jim
>
Well, I hope so, Stefan, seeing as I entered most of the data on the
boats from Bolger's books into our database including, almost
certainly, those two ;-)
Best wishes
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
boats from Bolger's books into our database including, almost
certainly, those two ;-)
Best wishes
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
>
> Howard,
>
> thank you very much. That would conform to what is in the database.
Hi Jim,
I agree that many old designs do not need modification. PB has improved
some of his designs, but this certainly does not mean they all need
improvement!
I really wish there were more views of these "newly released old
designs" available online, and also the design specs. Any chance of
getting this info posted online any time soon?
I emailed Dynamite asking the following question because with the right
answers I would buy some of these plans immediately:
questions posed by potential buyers.
Usually I inform myself about the boats I like by reviewing the wealth
of information post on the seller's web site, but this is not an option
here so I guess I'm stuck until this info becomes available.
Fortunately it's no problem for me to wait ... :)
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
I agree that many old designs do not need modification. PB has improved
some of his designs, but this certainly does not mean they all need
improvement!
I really wish there were more views of these "newly released old
designs" available online, and also the design specs. Any chance of
getting this info posted online any time soon?
I emailed Dynamite asking the following question because with the right
answers I would buy some of these plans immediately:
> My guess is that Sea Rover and Sea Runner... but this is all he said in his reply:
> are both Atkin designs, is this correct? If so,
> are either of these boats Seabright skiffs?
> Ken, the plans are $40. each.For a guy who wants to sell these plans he has a funny way of ignoring
> H. H. Payson.
questions posed by potential buyers.
Usually I inform myself about the boats I like by reviewing the wealth
of information post on the seller's web site, but this is not an option
here so I guess I'm stuck until this info becomes available.
Fortunately it's no problem for me to wait ... :)
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
> Ken,
> Concerning the Sampan series, I have a testimonial of a man who built
> the 19' model taking out a friend on the boat who sold aluminum
> fishing boats, which he advertised as the "best" boat. That was until
> he went fishing in this design. PB designed a fantastic boat in the
> Sampan series.
>
> Once Dynamite gained control in his words,"The "Sampan Express"
> series are multi chined like Diablo, Gypsy, ect and have the same
> designer Phil bolger who would like to see them continued".
>
> This series was not discarded because of flaws in design but rather
> sold and out of the control of PB to continue. Thank goodness
> Dynamite got them and he and PB are such good friends.
>
> Jim
Howard,
thank you very much. That would conform to what is in the database.
And as long "#184" cannot be the same as "#184-11-59", this would mean
that the number of Texas Dory 22 / Coastal 22 is more likely
#124-11-59, based not on the name, but on the dimensions.
Thanks,
Stefan
--- "Howard Stephenson" <howardstephenson@...> wrote:
thank you very much. That would conform to what is in the database.
And as long "#184" cannot be the same as "#184-11-59", this would mean
that the number of Texas Dory 22 / Coastal 22 is more likely
#124-11-59, based not on the name, but on the dimensions.
Thanks,
Stefan
--- "Howard Stephenson" <howardstephenson@...> wrote:
> Ch18 is titled "Yacht Tenders" and features two similar, rather--- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote:
> complicated, designs meant for fibreglass construction. One is #184,
> about 8' x 4' and the other is #291, 2.3m x 1.06m
> I won't say the design number couldn't be 124-11-59.
> It's not perfectly clear in the reduced copy.
Stefan,
Ch18 is titled "Yacht Tenders" and features two similar, rather
complicated, designs meant for fibreglass construction. One is #184,
about 8' x 4' and the other is #291, 2.3m x 1.06m, designed about ten
years after the first one.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
Ch18 is titled "Yacht Tenders" and features two similar, rather
complicated, designs meant for fibreglass construction. One is #184,
about 8' x 4' and the other is #291, 2.3m x 1.06m, designed about ten
years after the first one.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
>
> So, "Texas Dory Mk. 22" is also called "Coastal 22" and seems to be
> #184-11-59.
>
> Does anybody have the "Folding Schooner" and look what it writes in
> Chapter 18? (what boat, what design number)
The Oceanic series is also a Bolger design. Goes up to 45' I believe.
When Dynamite went into business with Capt. Orrell the capt sent him
two trunks full of plans. Many were Bolger plans which Dynamite sent
on to PB. I notice that some that Dynamite has released are not in
this group database. In true Dynamite form he has only released the
profiles that drew the most interest and were built.
If anyone wants a real historical record of Bolger plans they should
contact PB himself to find what he wants to release.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...>
wrote:
When Dynamite went into business with Capt. Orrell the capt sent him
two trunks full of plans. Many were Bolger plans which Dynamite sent
on to PB. I notice that some that Dynamite has released are not in
this group database. In true Dynamite form he has only released the
profiles that drew the most interest and were built.
If anyone wants a real historical record of Bolger plans they should
contact PB himself to find what he wants to release.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...>
wrote:
>Redesigned
> From an ancient Texas Dory plans package:
>
> These are Bolger:
> Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
> Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
> Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
> Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
> Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
> Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
> Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
>
> These are definitely not
> Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer.
> by John Gardnerversion
> The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3"
> by Gardener as well as thePlans
> (reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
>
> Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
> Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
> Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
> Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of
>none
> The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be Atkin,
> look like BolgerThe
>
>
>
> Howard Stephenson wrote:
> > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be.
> > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Lightand
> > New York Bay Skiff.
> >
> > Howard
> >
> >
>
Graeme,
Dynamites phone# is in the back of Build the new Instant Boats and in a
sticky on his messageboard named "Contacting Dynamite". There are two
ways of getting to the messageboard, through his website and in the
links section of the yahoo group.
Hope this helps for those who want to contact him. He is pleasant to
talk to and very helpful.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
Dynamites phone# is in the back of Build the new Instant Boats and in a
sticky on his messageboard named "Contacting Dynamite". There are two
ways of getting to the messageboard, through his website and in the
links section of the yahoo group.
Hope this helps for those who want to contact him. He is pleasant to
talk to and very helpful.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>US$3,
> "Down East Dories" has advertised a study pack of 30 dory plans @
> for some years now in the back of MAIB. Same postal addressas "Instant
> Boats"; no phone number though.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@> wrote:
> > Texas Dories went out of business years ago and sometime thereafter
> > Dynamite bought the plans...
>
Ken,
Concerning the Sampan series, I have a testimonial of a man who built
the 19' model taking out a friend on the boat who sold aluminum
fishing boats, which he advertised as the "best" boat. That was until
he went fishing in this design. PB designed a fantastic boat in the
Sampan series.
Once Dynamite gained control in his words,"The "Sampan Express"
series are multi chined like Diablo, Gypsy, ect and have the same
designer Phil bolger who would like to see them continued".
This series was not discarded because of flaws in design but rather
sold and out of the control of PB to continue. Thank goodness
Dynamite got them and he and PB are such good friends.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
Concerning the Sampan series, I have a testimonial of a man who built
the 19' model taking out a friend on the boat who sold aluminum
fishing boats, which he advertised as the "best" boat. That was until
he went fishing in this design. PB designed a fantastic boat in the
Sampan series.
Once Dynamite gained control in his words,"The "Sampan Express"
series are multi chined like Diablo, Gypsy, ect and have the same
designer Phil bolger who would like to see them continued".
This series was not discarded because of flaws in design but rather
sold and out of the control of PB to continue. Thank goodness
Dynamite got them and he and PB are such good friends.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
>eliminated.
> > There can be Good Boats in a designer's older plans.
>
> No doubt about it!
>
> On the other hand some designers may learn about disappointing
> performance in earlier boats and try to improve upon their previous
> work by releasing a similar new designs with those problems
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
Stefan,
I won't say the design number couldn't be 124-11-59. It's not perfectly
clear in the reduced copy. As to the name, many of the Texas Dory plans
have different names than the one in the title block. Recall that Bolger
has said that it was Orrell who named the light dory "Gloucester Gull".
- Mike
Stefan Probst wrote:
I won't say the design number couldn't be 124-11-59. It's not perfectly
clear in the reduced copy. As to the name, many of the Texas Dory plans
have different names than the one in the title block. Recall that Bolger
has said that it was Orrell who named the light dory "Gloucester Gull".
- Mike
Stefan Probst wrote:
> So, "Texas Dory Mk. 22" is also called "Coastal 22" and seems to be
> #184-11-59.
>
> Does anybody have the "Folding Schooner" and look what it writes in
> Chapter 18? (what boat, what design number)
>
> Thanks,
> Stefan
>
> the private archivar
>
> --- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote:
>
>> Stefan,
>>
>> The study plans in the plans packet are mostly reductions
>> of the general arrangement sheet of the building plans,
>> so the title block is there but isn't completely clear. On the
>> sheet for the Coastal 22 it seems to say:
>>
>> DESIGN 184-11-59
>> Texas Dory Mk. XXII
>> 22'5" x 7'9"
>> for Capt. Jim Orrell
>>
>> This is not one of the sampan hull forms, but rather a
>> flat-bottom dory skiff.
>>
>> - Mike
>>
>> Stefan Probst wrote:
>>
>>> --- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
>>>>
>>>>
>>> According to the Group Database, #184 is "Petty Yacht Tender", 7'9" x
>>> 3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:
>>> FoldingSch Ch#18
>>>
>>>
>>> Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there somewhere
>>>
> a typo?
>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
turned his back on the sailing dory - definately, and for good!
Graeme
> There can be Good Boats in a designer's older plans...I've a strong feeling that it was after MORNING LIGHT 22 that PCB
turned his back on the sailing dory - definately, and for good!
Graeme
> There can be Good Boats in a designer's older plans.No doubt about it!
On the other hand some designers may learn about disappointing
performance in earlier boats and try to improve upon their previous
work by releasing a similar new designs with those problems eliminated.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
"Down East Dories" has advertised a study pack of 30 dory plans @ US$3,
for some years now in the back of MAIB. Same postal address as "Instant
Boats"; no phone number though.
for some years now in the back of MAIB. Same postal address as "Instant
Boats"; no phone number though.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
> Texas Dories went out of business years ago and sometime thereafter
> Dynamite bought the plans...
So, "Texas Dory Mk. 22" is also called "Coastal 22" and seems to be
#184-11-59.
Does anybody have the "Folding Schooner" and look what it writes in
Chapter 18? (what boat, what design number)
Thanks,
Stefan
the private archivar
--- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote:
#184-11-59.
Does anybody have the "Folding Schooner" and look what it writes in
Chapter 18? (what boat, what design number)
Thanks,
Stefan
the private archivar
--- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote:
>a typo?
> Stefan,
>
> The study plans in the plans packet are mostly reductions
> of the general arrangement sheet of the building plans,
> so the title block is there but isn't completely clear. On the
> sheet for the Coastal 22 it seems to say:
>
> DESIGN 184-11-59
> Texas Dory Mk. XXII
> 22'5" x 7'9"
> for Capt. Jim Orrell
>
> This is not one of the sampan hull forms, but rather a
> flat-bottom dory skiff.
>
> - Mike
>
> Stefan Probst wrote:
> > --- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@> wrote:
> >
> >> Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> >>
> >
> > According to the Group Database, #184 is "Petty Yacht Tender", 7'9" x
> > 3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:
> > FoldingSch Ch#18
> >
> >
> > Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there somewhere
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Stefan
> >
>
Jim you could be a sweetie and scan it and add it to one of the photo files. That way we could all get to see it. (batting eyes sweetly) To be honest I like the older looking boats... I look at most of the new glass boats and the are blob looking just like all the new cars are. They don't have any style to them!
Krissie
Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote: Krissie,
I have an old glossy Dynamite sent me of the Sampan/Texas Dory
Express 30. It is s fine looking boat. Not old looking at all. These
are the multi chine non Instant Diablos and very nice looking boats.
I think your right about the horsepower of new engines and these
hulls. I'm sure there are others in this group much smarter than
myself who know the actuals.
Jim
-
---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krissie
Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote: Krissie,
I have an old glossy Dynamite sent me of the Sampan/Texas Dory
Express 30. It is s fine looking boat. Not old looking at all. These
are the multi chine non Instant Diablos and very nice looking boats.
I think your right about the horsepower of new engines and these
hulls. I'm sure there are others in this group much smarter than
myself who know the actuals.
Jim
-
---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mike if you have the panel layout for the hull then it can be made most anyway you want. But I will agree just edge nailing the hull to the transom is a bit shaky to me as well!
I like the idea of tack and tape for building "light boats" But this summer I saw one of Devlens larger boats here. Being tack and tape I have to say the boat looked like a glass boat! It was very nice in and out!
It's a shame epoxy is so spendy!
Blessings Krissie
Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote: Krissie,
I couldn't agree more. However, they are older designs and some of the
construction details
might not be what he would use today. For instance, the Sampan Express
17 has a transom
made from doubled 3/4" plywood without any other framing. In this boat
the motor well
structure is an additional support for the motor, but if I were to build
it, I'd want some solid
framing at the transom edges to take the fastenings.
I know the Sampan Express 17 isn't in the original list that started
this thread, but it's one that
I have plans for (and have had for 25 years -- I may build it yet).
- Mike
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I like the idea of tack and tape for building "light boats" But this summer I saw one of Devlens larger boats here. Being tack and tape I have to say the boat looked like a glass boat! It was very nice in and out!
It's a shame epoxy is so spendy!
Blessings Krissie
Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote: Krissie,
I couldn't agree more. However, they are older designs and some of the
construction details
might not be what he would use today. For instance, the Sampan Express
17 has a transom
made from doubled 3/4" plywood without any other framing. In this boat
the motor well
structure is an additional support for the motor, but if I were to build
it, I'd want some solid
framing at the transom edges to take the fastenings.
I know the Sampan Express 17 isn't in the original list that started
this thread, but it's one that
I have plans for (and have had for 25 years -- I may build it yet).
- Mike
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Texas Dories bought the plans outright from the designers, including all
rights to them. He didn't just license them. Texas Dories went out of
business years ago and sometime thereafter Dynamite bought the plans, and
all rights to them, from Jim Orrell (sp?) the proprietor of Texas Dories.
There can be Good Boats in a designer's older plans. Newer isn't
necessarily better. Bolger's older, simpler boats certainly can stand up
to comparison with the newer, more complicated boats from PB&F.
rights to them. He didn't just license them. Texas Dories went out of
business years ago and sometime thereafter Dynamite bought the plans, and
all rights to them, from Jim Orrell (sp?) the proprietor of Texas Dories.
There can be Good Boats in a designer's older plans. Newer isn't
necessarily better. Bolger's older, simpler boats certainly can stand up
to comparison with the newer, more complicated boats from PB&F.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:08:29 -0700, Kenneth G wrote:
> Was the "Texas Dories" company licensed exclusively to sell these
> designs? If so, have they gone out of business?
>
> Just curious how Texas Dories could have a copyright on designs from
> Atkin, Bolger, and perhaps othe designers. Also curious how/why these
> designs are available for sale again.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after
tomorrow. <Mark Twain>
Stefan,
The study plans in the plans packet are mostly reductions
of the general arrangement sheet of the building plans,
so the title block is there but isn't completely clear. On the
sheet for the Coastal 22 it seems to say:
DESIGN 184-11-59
Texas Dory Mk. XXII
22'5" x 7'9"
for Capt. Jim Orrell
This is not one of the sampan hull forms, but rather a
flat-bottom dory skiff.
- Mike
Stefan Probst wrote:
The study plans in the plans packet are mostly reductions
of the general arrangement sheet of the building plans,
so the title block is there but isn't completely clear. On the
sheet for the Coastal 22 it seems to say:
DESIGN 184-11-59
Texas Dory Mk. XXII
22'5" x 7'9"
for Capt. Jim Orrell
This is not one of the sampan hull forms, but rather a
flat-bottom dory skiff.
- Mike
Stefan Probst wrote:
> --- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote:
>
>> Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
>>
>
> According to the Group Database, #184 is "Petty Yacht Tender", 7'9" x
> 3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:
> FoldingSch Ch#18
>
>
> Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there somewhere a typo?
>
> Thanks,
> Stefan
>
Krissie,
I couldn't agree more. However, they are older designs and some of the
construction details
might not be what he would use today. For instance, the Sampan Express
17 has a transom
made from doubled 3/4" plywood without any other framing. In this boat
the motor well
structure is an additional support for the motor, but if I were to build
it, I'd want some solid
framing at the transom edges to take the fastenings.
I know the Sampan Express 17 isn't in the original list that started
this thread, but it's one that
I have plans for (and have had for 25 years -- I may build it yet).
- Mike
Kristine Bennett wrote:
I couldn't agree more. However, they are older designs and some of the
construction details
might not be what he would use today. For instance, the Sampan Express
17 has a transom
made from doubled 3/4" plywood without any other framing. In this boat
the motor well
structure is an additional support for the motor, but if I were to build
it, I'd want some solid
framing at the transom edges to take the fastenings.
I know the Sampan Express 17 isn't in the original list that started
this thread, but it's one that
I have plans for (and have had for 25 years -- I may build it yet).
- Mike
Kristine Bennett wrote:
> So the plans are not new...or the latest or the greatest. But they have not changed the way water flows or the wind blows. I also don't think they will ever do that!
>
> SO it is far more likely the hull forms are easer to push then some of the newer hull forms. It looks to me most of the hulls are for outboard power. 40 years ago 75 HP was a big outboard. In 67 I think merc came out with their 110 HP tower of power.
>
> So what this in mind I would guess most of the smaller boats would be fine with 25 to say 60 HP. You would get your turn of speed and not brake the bank doing it!
>
> She may be old but that doesn't mean she's slow! :)
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote: Mike,
> Great job!
> These are ancient. I think they have been on the shelf for 30-40
> years.
>
> Jim
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > From an ancient Texas Dory plans package:
> >
> > These are Bolger:
> > Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
> > Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
> > Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
> > Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> > Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
> > Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
> > Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
> > Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
> >
> > These are definitely not
> > Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer.
> Redesigned
> > by John Gardner
> > The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3"
> version
> > by Gardener as well as the
> > (reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
> >
> > Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
> > Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
> > Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
> > Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of
> Plans
> >
> > The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be Atkin,
> none
> > look like Bolger
> >
> >
> >
> > Howard Stephenson wrote:
> > > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be.
> The
> > > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Light
> and
> > > New York Bay Skiff.
> > >
> > > Howard
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Krissie,
I have an old glossy Dynamite sent me of the Sampan/Texas Dory
Express 30. It is s fine looking boat. Not old looking at all. These
are the multi chine non Instant Diablos and very nice looking boats.
I think your right about the horsepower of new engines and these
hulls. I'm sure there are others in this group much smarter than
myself who know the actuals.
Jim
I have an old glossy Dynamite sent me of the Sampan/Texas Dory
Express 30. It is s fine looking boat. Not old looking at all. These
are the multi chine non Instant Diablos and very nice looking boats.
I think your right about the horsepower of new engines and these
hulls. I'm sure there are others in this group much smarter than
myself who know the actuals.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> So the plans are not new...or the latest or the greatest. But they
have not changed the way water flows or the wind blows. I also don't
think they will ever do that!
>
> SO it is far more likely the hull forms are easer to push then some
of the newer hull forms. It looks to me most of the hulls are for
outboard power. 40 years ago 75 HP was a big outboard. In 67 I think
merc came out with their 110 HP tower of power.
>
> So what this in mind I would guess most of the smaller boats would
be fine with 25 to say 60 HP. You would get your turn of speed and
not brake the bank doing it!
>
> She may be old but that doesn't mean she's slow! :)
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote:
Mike,
> Great job!
> These are ancient. I think they have been on the shelf for 30-40
> years.
>
> Jim
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@>
> wrote:
> >
> > From an ancient Texas Dory plans package:
> >
> > These are Bolger:
> > Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
> > Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
> > Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
> > Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> > Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
> > Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
> > Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
> > Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
> >
> > These are definitely not
> > Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer.
> Redesigned
> > by John Gardner
> > The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3"
> version
> > by Gardener as well as the
> > (reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
> >
> > Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
> > Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
> > Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
> > Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of
> Plans
> >
> > The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be
Atkin,
> none
> > look like Bolger
> >
> >
> >
> > Howard Stephenson wrote:
> > > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to
be.
> The
> > > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning
Light
> and
> > > New York Bay Skiff.
> > >
> > > Howard
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not
web links.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Stefan,
My mistake. I noticed on another stamps that there were dashs.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
My mistake. I noticed on another stamps that there were dashs.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
>7'9"
> --- "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@> wrote:
> >
> > Stefan,
> > My post states:
> >
> > Sampan/Express 30
> > Bolger Design #148
> >
> > not #184
>
> I was not quoting you, Jim, but Mike.
> And it is not about Sampan/Express 30, but about Coastal 22.
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
>
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@> wrote:
> > > > Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> > >
> > > According to the Group Database, #184 is "Petty Yacht Tender",
> > xsomewhere a
> > > 3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:
> > > FoldingSch Ch#18
> > >
> > >
> > > Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there
> > typo?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Stefan
> > >
> >
>
So the plans are not new...or the latest or the greatest. But they have not changed the way water flows or the wind blows. I also don't think they will ever do that!
SO it is far more likely the hull forms are easer to push then some of the newer hull forms. It looks to me most of the hulls are for outboard power. 40 years ago 75 HP was a big outboard. In 67 I think merc came out with their 110 HP tower of power.
So what this in mind I would guess most of the smaller boats would be fine with 25 to say 60 HP. You would get your turn of speed and not brake the bank doing it!
She may be old but that doesn't mean she's slow! :)
Blessings Krissie
Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote: Mike,
Great job!
These are ancient. I think they have been on the shelf for 30-40
years.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...>
wrote:
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SO it is far more likely the hull forms are easer to push then some of the newer hull forms. It looks to me most of the hulls are for outboard power. 40 years ago 75 HP was a big outboard. In 67 I think merc came out with their 110 HP tower of power.
So what this in mind I would guess most of the smaller boats would be fine with 25 to say 60 HP. You would get your turn of speed and not brake the bank doing it!
She may be old but that doesn't mean she's slow! :)
Blessings Krissie
Jim Kessler <jkess777@...> wrote: Mike,
Great job!
These are ancient. I think they have been on the shelf for 30-40
years.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...>
wrote:
>Redesigned
> From an ancient Texas Dory plans package:
>
> These are Bolger:
> Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
> Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
> Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
> Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
> Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
> Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
> Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
>
> These are definitely not
> Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer.
> by John Gardnerversion
> The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3"
> by Gardener as well as thePlans
> (reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
>
> Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
> Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
> Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
> Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of
>none
> The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be Atkin,
> look like BolgerThe
>
>
>
> Howard Stephenson wrote:
> > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be.
> > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Lightand
> > New York Bay Skiff.---------------------------------
> >
> > Howard
> >
> >
>
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
And it is not about Sampan/Express 30, but about Coastal 22.
Cheers,
Stefan
>I was not quoting you, Jim, but Mike.
> Stefan,
> My post states:
>
> Sampan/Express 30
> Bolger Design #148
>
> not #184
And it is not about Sampan/Express 30, but about Coastal 22.
Cheers,
Stefan
>
> Jim
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@> wrote:
> > > Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> >
> > According to the Group Database, #184 is "Petty Yacht Tender", 7'9"
> x
> > 3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:
> > FoldingSch Ch#18
> >
> >
> > Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there somewhere a
> typo?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Stefan
> >
>
The catalog now called Down East Dories includes:
Glouchester gull rowing Dory..Bolger
St. Pierre (Grand Banks) Power Dories 19,23,26'..Jay R. Bedford
Grand Banks Dory 14' Higgins & Gifford
Jim
Glouchester gull rowing Dory..Bolger
St. Pierre (Grand Banks) Power Dories 19,23,26'..Jay R. Bedford
Grand Banks Dory 14' Higgins & Gifford
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> Great job!
> These are ancient. I think they have been on the shelf for 30-40
> years.
>
> Jim
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@>
> wrote:
> >
> > From an ancient Texas Dory plans package:
> >
> > These are Bolger:
> > Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
> > Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
> > Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
> > Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> > Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
> > Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
> > Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
> > Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
> >
> > These are definitely not
> > Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer.
> Redesigned
> > by John Gardner
> > The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3"
> version
> > by Gardener as well as the
> > (reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
> >
> > Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
> > Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
> > Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
> > Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of
> Plans
> >
> > The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be
Atkin,
> none
> > look like Bolger
> >
> >
> >
> > Howard Stephenson wrote:
> > > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to
be.
> The
> > > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning
Light
> and
> > > New York Bay Skiff.
> > >
> > > Howard
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Mike,
Great job!
These are ancient. I think they have been on the shelf for 30-40
years.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...>
wrote:
Great job!
These are ancient. I think they have been on the shelf for 30-40
years.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...>
wrote:
>Redesigned
> From an ancient Texas Dory plans package:
>
> These are Bolger:
> Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
> Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
> Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
> Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
> Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
> Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
> Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
> Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
>
> These are definitely not
> Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer.
> by John Gardnerversion
> The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3"
> by Gardener as well as thePlans
> (reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
>
> Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
> Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
> Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
> Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of
>none
> The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be Atkin,
> look like BolgerThe
>
>
>
> Howard Stephenson wrote:
> > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be.
> > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Lightand
> > New York Bay Skiff.
> >
> > Howard
> >
> >
>
Ken,
Sampan is the Bolger series but the Express is for Texas Dories.
The stamp is:
Design #148
Texas Dory Express 30
30'0" xx xx
for Capt. Jim Orrell
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
Sampan is the Bolger series but the Express is for Texas Dories.
The stamp is:
Design #148
Texas Dory Express 30
30'0" xx xx
for Capt. Jim Orrell
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
>from
> > As you can see they are earlier designs which
> > where held in copyright by Texas Dories.
>
>
> Was the "Texas Dories" company licensed exclusively to sell these
> designs? If so, have they gone out of business?
>
> Just curious how Texas Dories could have a copyright on designs
> Atkin, Bolger, and perhaps othe designers. Also curious how/whythese
> designs are available for sale again.
>
> Sorry for all the curiosity, just trying to make sense out of the
> situation.
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
Ken,
Good questions.
PB and Atkins as well as others were commisioned by Capt. Jim Orrell.
I dont have the authority to post the plan which shows the Bolger
stamp. But the Stamp does say it was for Capt. Jim Orrell by PB.
Specificly on the Sampan/Express series. There are other plans that
are PB plans owned by Texas Dories which do not specify Capt. Orrell
on the stamp.
To my knowledge when the plans where drawn they became the property
of Capt. Orrell and he had full copyright authority over them. Thus
these plans are not on this groups database nor on the web.
Dynamite gained possesion of Texas Dories some time ago and has
changed its name to Down East Dories. PB wanted these plans to
continue so Dynamite took them off the shelf.
If anyone has questions concerning these plans I would suggest
contacting Dynamite.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
Good questions.
PB and Atkins as well as others were commisioned by Capt. Jim Orrell.
I dont have the authority to post the plan which shows the Bolger
stamp. But the Stamp does say it was for Capt. Jim Orrell by PB.
Specificly on the Sampan/Express series. There are other plans that
are PB plans owned by Texas Dories which do not specify Capt. Orrell
on the stamp.
To my knowledge when the plans where drawn they became the property
of Capt. Orrell and he had full copyright authority over them. Thus
these plans are not on this groups database nor on the web.
Dynamite gained possesion of Texas Dories some time ago and has
changed its name to Down East Dories. PB wanted these plans to
continue so Dynamite took them off the shelf.
If anyone has questions concerning these plans I would suggest
contacting Dynamite.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:
>from
> > As you can see they are earlier designs which
> > where held in copyright by Texas Dories.
>
>
> Was the "Texas Dories" company licensed exclusively to sell these
> designs? If so, have they gone out of business?
>
> Just curious how Texas Dories could have a copyright on designs
> Atkin, Bolger, and perhaps othe designers. Also curious how/whythese
> designs are available for sale again.
>
> Sorry for all the curiosity, just trying to make sense out of the
> situation.
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
> As you can see they are earlier designs whichWas the "Texas Dories" company licensed exclusively to sell these
> where held in copyright by Texas Dories.
designs? If so, have they gone out of business?
Just curious how Texas Dories could have a copyright on designs from
Atkin, Bolger, and perhaps othe designers. Also curious how/why these
designs are available for sale again.
Sorry for all the curiosity, just trying to make sense out of the
situation.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Stefan,
My post states:
Sampan/Express 30
Bolger Design #148
not #184
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
My post states:
Sampan/Express 30
Bolger Design #148
not #184
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
>x
> --- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@> wrote:
> > Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
>
> According to the Group Database, #184 is "Petty Yacht Tender", 7'9"
> 3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:typo?
> FoldingSch Ch#18
>
>
> Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there somewhere a
>
> Thanks,
> Stefan
>
--- Mike Bevington <mike_bevington@...> wrote:
3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:
FoldingSch Ch#18
Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there somewhere a typo?
Thanks,
Stefan
> Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59According to the Group Database, #184 is "Petty Yacht Tender", 7'9" x
3'10", Row, Sail - 430lbs displ., Dinghy - fibreglass - ref:
FoldingSch Ch#18
Is #184-11-59 and #184 something different, or is there somewhere a typo?
Thanks,
Stefan
Stefan,
Yes you don't see much of anything on these designs on the web that
is exactly why they are being posted now. As you can see they are
earlier designs which where held in copyright by Texas Dories. They
have been setting in Dynamites closet for years. He told me yesterday
that PB wanted them to get exposure.
Sampan/Express 30
Bolger design #148
Sampan/Express 22
Bolger design #149
Sampan/Express 19
not sure of design #
Surfmaster 19
Bolger design #167
Seahawk Dory/Skiff
Bolger design #247
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
3
DSFDReports/dsfd-NewCaledonia-79.pdf
Yes you don't see much of anything on these designs on the web that
is exactly why they are being posted now. As you can see they are
earlier designs which where held in copyright by Texas Dories. They
have been setting in Dynamites closet for years. He told me yesterday
that PB wanted them to get exposure.
Sampan/Express 30
Bolger design #148
Sampan/Express 22
Bolger design #149
Sampan/Express 19
not sure of design #
Surfmaster 19
Bolger design #167
Seahawk Dory/Skiff
Bolger design #247
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
wrote:
>http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/CD3WD/FISH/T0024E/B988_9.HTM#B988_9_
> Tried to find something about Sampan Express on the Web. Not very
> successful.
>
>
3
>http://www.spc.int/coastfish/Sections/Development/FDSPublications/FDS_
> has lines of "A 30-ft inboard powered boat based on a Texas dory
> Sampan Express 30".
>
> And
>
DSFDReports/dsfd-NewCaledonia-79.pdf
> also mentions "Sampan Express".
>
> Not sure whether all of this is Bolger.
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
>
Tried to find something about Sampan Express on the Web. Not very
successful.
http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/CD3WD/FISH/T0024E/B988_9.HTM#B988_9_3
has lines of "A 30-ft inboard powered boat based on a Texas dory
Sampan Express 30".
And
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/Sections/Development/FDSPublications/FDS_DSFDReports/dsfd-NewCaledonia-79.pdf
also mentions "Sampan Express".
Not sure whether all of this is Bolger.
Cheers,
Stefan
successful.
http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/CD3WD/FISH/T0024E/B988_9.HTM#B988_9_3
has lines of "A 30-ft inboard powered boat based on a Texas dory
Sampan Express 30".
And
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/Sections/Development/FDSPublications/FDS_DSFDReports/dsfd-NewCaledonia-79.pdf
also mentions "Sampan Express".
Not sure whether all of this is Bolger.
Cheers,
Stefan
What is new? Nothing@!! They are are all designs from prior plans,
dreams and ideas.... So, what is new? What is beter? What is
relevent>?
Only what ever you want and need for whatever water you will be
boating on.
Fact: Boats are dreams that don't always fit reality.
If you can get over that and just enjoy the enviroment you want to
experiance. Then thats all that;s important.
Enjoy the entire experiance. It's beter then what the local cemetary
has to offer!!
dreams and ideas.... So, what is new? What is beter? What is
relevent>?
Only what ever you want and need for whatever water you will be
boating on.
Fact: Boats are dreams that don't always fit reality.
If you can get over that and just enjoy the enviroment you want to
experiance. Then thats all that;s important.
Enjoy the entire experiance. It's beter then what the local cemetary
has to offer!!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Surfmaster
> Sampan Express
> Seahawk Dory/Skiff
> All Bolger
> Jim
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> > In the header "Sampan". there are others not posted on that link
> > because they haven't been scanned.
> > Jim
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not the New York Bay skiff. The drawing style isn't Bolger's.
> It's
> > > probably something Jim Orrell (sp?) snagged from the
Smithsonian,
> > like the
> > > Boston Italian fishing dory at the bottom. The Cape Ann sailing
> > dory looks
> > > like it came from the Smithy too. Sea Rover and Sea Runner are
> > almost
> > > certainly Seabright skiff variants designed by John Atkin.
> > Beachcomber was
> > > definitely designed by John Atkin.
> > >
> > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:13:15 -0700, Howard S wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to
> be.
> > The
> > > > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning
> Light
> > and
> > > > New York Bay Skiff.
> > > >
> > > >>http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1872
> > >
> > > --
> > > John <jkohnen@>
> > > One cat just leads to another. <Ernest Hemingway>
> > >
> >
>
From an ancient Texas Dory plans package:
These are Bolger:
Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
These are definitely not
Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer. Redesigned
by John Gardner
The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3" version
by Gardener as well as the
(reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of Plans
The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be Atkin, none
look like Bolger
Howard Stephenson wrote:
These are Bolger:
Sea or Ski 19 -- Bolger design 134-7-60
Lapstrake Express 22 -- Bolger design #155
Surfmaster 19 -- Bolger design #167
Coastal 22 -- Bolger design 184-11-59
Shoals Runner 17 -- Bolger design #189 5/65
Sampan Express 30 -- Bolger design # 148
Morning Light 22' -- Bolger design #190 7/65
Sea Hawk Dory Skiff 15'6" -- Bolger design 247
These are definitely not
Carolina Dory Skiff -- original design by William A. Cofer. Redesigned
by John Gardner
The Texas Dory plan I have includes 19'3" version and 20'3" version
by Gardener as well as the
(reduced to one page) original plan by Cofer.
Sea Rover 30 -- Atkin & Co., No. 829
Beachcomber 23 -- Atkin & Co. No. 823
Sea Runner 27 -- Atkin & Co. No. 844
Cape Ann Sailing Dory 23 -- Chapelle, Smithsonian Collection of Plans
The others don't note the designer on the plan. Some may be Atkin, none
look like Bolger
Howard Stephenson wrote:
> Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be. The
> Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Light and
> New York Bay Skiff.
>
> Howard
>
>
John,
Surfmaster
Sampan Express
Seahawk Dory/Skiff
All Bolger
Jim
Surfmaster
Sampan Express
Seahawk Dory/Skiff
All Bolger
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
>
> John,
> In the header "Sampan". there are others not posted on that link
> because they haven't been scanned.
> Jim
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@> wrote:
> >
> > Not the New York Bay skiff. The drawing style isn't Bolger's.
It's
> > probably something Jim Orrell (sp?) snagged from the Smithsonian,
> like the
> > Boston Italian fishing dory at the bottom. The Cape Ann sailing
> dory looks
> > like it came from the Smithy too. Sea Rover and Sea Runner are
> almost
> > certainly Seabright skiff variants designed by John Atkin.
> Beachcomber was
> > definitely designed by John Atkin.
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:13:15 -0700, Howard S wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to
be.
> The
> > > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning
Light
> and
> > > New York Bay Skiff.
> > >
> > >>http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1872
> >
> > --
> > John <jkohnen@>
> > One cat just leads to another. <Ernest Hemingway>
> >
>
John,
In the header "Sampan". there are others not posted on that link
because they haven't been scanned.
Jim
In the header "Sampan". there are others not posted on that link
because they haven't been scanned.
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Not the New York Bay skiff. The drawing style isn't Bolger's. It's
> probably something Jim Orrell (sp?) snagged from the Smithsonian,
like the
> Boston Italian fishing dory at the bottom. The Cape Ann sailing
dory looks
> like it came from the Smithy too. Sea Rover and Sea Runner are
almost
> certainly Seabright skiff variants designed by John Atkin.
Beachcomber was
> definitely designed by John Atkin.
>
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:13:15 -0700, Howard S wrote:
>
> > Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be.
The
> > Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Light
and
> > New York Bay Skiff.
> >
> >>http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1872
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
> One cat just leads to another. <Ernest Hemingway>
>
Not the New York Bay skiff. The drawing style isn't Bolger's. It's
probably something Jim Orrell (sp?) snagged from the Smithsonian, like the
Boston Italian fishing dory at the bottom. The Cape Ann sailing dory looks
like it came from the Smithy too. Sea Rover and Sea Runner are almost
certainly Seabright skiff variants designed by John Atkin. Beachcomber was
definitely designed by John Atkin.
probably something Jim Orrell (sp?) snagged from the Smithsonian, like the
Boston Italian fishing dory at the bottom. The Cape Ann sailing dory looks
like it came from the Smithy too. Sea Rover and Sea Runner are almost
certainly Seabright skiff variants designed by John Atkin. Beachcomber was
definitely designed by John Atkin.
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:13:15 -0700, Howard S wrote:
> Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be. The
> Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Light and
> New York Bay Skiff.
>
>>http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1872
--
John <jkohnen@...>
One cat just leads to another. <Ernest Hemingway>
Ok, so which of these is a Bolger design? Several seem not to be. The
Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Light and
New York Bay Skiff.
Howard
Seahawk definitely is, and perhaps Sampan Express, Morning Light and
New York Bay Skiff.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> PB has told Dynamite he would like these boats to get exposure. They
> are the Non Instant Diablo up to 30'
>
>http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1872
Hello all,
PB has told Dynamite he would like these boats to get exposure. They
are the Non Instant Diablo up to 30'
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1872
Jim
PB has told Dynamite he would like these boats to get exposure. They
are the Non Instant Diablo up to 30'
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1872
Jim