Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:

>
> > On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:13:06 -0700, Graeme wrote:
> >
> > >> The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!
> > >

1)> > > Name one other 80 year old that does

>

2)> The real issue is the premise.

>

3)> Which is: Phil Bolger's has a duty to satisfy impatient other
people.

>
> And a better question is: Which 80 year old has a duty spend their
> precious time doing anything other than exactly what they want to

do?

>

Agreed. In context I meant to imply the above 2) and 3) and more in
1) :-)

Not long ago I posted this excerpt:

----------------------------------------------------
"Friendly (or unfriendly, for that matter) letters are always
welcom (sic), but if there comes a flood of correspondence I tend
to discard as much of it as can't be handled in a reasonable part
of the day, rather than give up designing for letter-writing;
letters containing money, say five dollars, are always answered or
at least will be if I'm alive, in health, and at liberty at the
time, and for that amount I will take a fair amount of trouble
commenting on proposed alterations and their consequences. If the
writer has found what I agree to be a mistake in the plans I'll
refund the money." [Very Small Boats - preface, 1970]
-----------------------------------------------------

And that has worked for me. (nowadays more than $5 of course) I got
answers, prices, recommendations, and an extra included plan to pay
for if ever built. For a small design, I've enclosed a money order
in registered mail for the plans cost amount from the design index
of this group with a little padding allowance for inflation - so
that can work too. Fast and satisfactory international snail mail
transaction, I must say.

The contents of "mrfirkin" 's letter to PB&F remain unknown. It may
be that the letter was not "lost in the post" but sorted to the
discard pile for the above reasons.

It seems all of a sudden "mrfirkin" is very, VERY, irritable. Yet
don't forget that as long ago as April, 2001, he was advised to get
plans for a MICRO. This was during his engaging in the "Martha Jane -
A dog?" discussion (a rant he continued 6 years on in the top post
to this thread after being advised by a NIS 23 builder that the
Martha Jane was a much better proposition!!!)

BTW the person "mrfirkin" complained of who offered help by way of
an unused plans swap has not been spotted since that time in any
Yahoo forum. I hope he is well - and just travelling or something.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

I could not do what I mentioned without financial backing anyways. It
was just a thought.

It seems like people are constantly wishing he would do something
similar himself. If time were the only reason he hasn't, there are
probably lots of retired folks who wouldn't mind doing it for him ...
but I don't think time is the issue.

I think he does not need the extra money resulting from additional sales
regardless of the 'poor guy' image he may try to present in his
writing. I also think he just wants to enjoy his greater free time
now, with no new commitments whatsoever.

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com

> Kenneth,
>
> I'm sure you mean well, but I think they would tear strips off you if
> you raised it - it seems Chuck the Duck still smarts from a similar
> encounter...
>
> I don't know that PB or PB&F have no heirs. PB has hardly left the
> spot he grew up on, his family connections go back a while there, and
> probably are widespread there today. Also, I've a feeling that most
> of the "Friends" (note plural) in PB&F are old and true ones...
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
>
> wrote:
> > I am bothered by the possibility that when Phil and/or Susanne die
> > leaving no younger heirs to carry on their plans sales business
> > most
>
> of
>
> > PB&F's designs might be lost, then future builders will never be
> > able to benefit from their work. This is why I would love to be
> > the one
>
> to
>
> > archive his work for posterity. I think it would gives me a chance
>
> to
>
> > provide something permanent and really valuable to the backyard
> > boat building community.
> >
> > I never made such a proposal to PB&F of course, but...

Kenneth,

I'm sure you mean well, but I think they would tear strips off you if
you raised it - it seems Chuck the Duck still smarts from a similar
encounter...

I don't know that PB or PB&F have no heirs. PB has hardly left the spot
he grew up on, his family connections go back a while there, and
probably are widespread there today. Also, I've a feeling that most of
the "Friends" (note plural) in PB&F are old and true ones...

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
wrote:

>
> I am bothered by the possibility that when Phil and/or Susanne die
> leaving no younger heirs to carry on their plans sales business most

> PB&F's designs might be lost, then future builders will never be able
> to benefit from their work. This is why I would love to be the one

> archive his work for posterity. I think it would gives me a chance

> provide something permanent and really valuable to the backyard boat
> building community.
>
> I never made such a proposal to PB&F of course, but...

Getting back to the issue that brought this up:

I only suggested a forum because many times people can help each other
in forums, especially with issues that do not require input from the
designer.

And if the designer answers a question ONCE in a forum he never has to
answer it again, because it is then "in the library" where anyone can
review it.

Either way a forum ends up saving time for the designer -- and this was
my main point.

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com

> Too true ;-(
>
> It is a numbers game though, and most are scared off immediately by
> the disclaimer. Work out the percentages because someone will fight
> all the way someday...
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Paul Esterle <pesterle@...> wrote:
> > And if you think your disclaimers will protect you, you are crazy.
>
> The
>
> > lawyers will go after anyone they can. You might win, if you could
> > afford the legal costs...

Too true ;-(

It is a numbers game though, and most are scared off immediately by the
disclaimer. Work out the percentages because someone will fight all the
way someday...

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Paul Esterle <pesterle@...> wrote:
>
> And if you think your disclaimers will protect you, you are crazy.
The
> lawyers will go after anyone they can. You might win, if you could
> afford the legal costs...

And if you think your disclaimers will protect you, you are crazy. The
lawyers will go after anyone they can. You might win, if you could
afford the legal costs...

Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
North East, MD.
“Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
book at www.captnpauley.com
home.comcast.net/~pesterle/

>
>
> If someone was to start such a forum..we have one at Instant
> Boats...the desclaimers protect everyone...
>

> The 'name of record' of the designer on the plans is Phil Bolger,

(or

> PB&F). No one on the forum would have the authority to speak for

him

> (them). Sometimes, the answer to the questions involves risk to

life

> and property, and this significance is hard to ignore.

If someone was to start such a forum..we have one at Instant
Boats...the desclaimers protect everyone...

Such as this..

(Legals

Any post made on this forum is the sole responsibility of the poster.
Instant Boats, its Affiliates, Admins, or Mods are not responsible or
held liable by any legal term for the content, deletion, editing, or
preservation of any post.

The Admins and Mods of this forum do not have the time to edit posts;
therefore, they may be deleted or edited at the discretion of the
Admins or Mods at any time.

By posting on this forum the poster agrees to these terms of use).

Therefore the idea of a builder support through a forum has worked
very well for Dynamite. As to date Dynamite is surprised PB doesn't
have a web presence. I think anyone wanting to buy his plans feel the
same. A web forum of qualified builders is a great asset for any
designer selling plans.

Jim

On 9/13/07, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:

> I would also include an online builder's forum which would practically
> eliminate most of the repetitive inquiries from potential builders.

The 'name of record' of the designer on the plans is Phil Bolger, (or
PB&F). No one on the forum would have the authority to speak for him
(them). Sometimes, the answer to the questions involves risk to life
and property, and this significance is hard to ignore.

This I think is the crux of the issue, I am guessing that PB&F do not
want to risk overloading their time to answer all the questions that
inevitably comes with increasing the volume of their plan sales
business.

> I would hypothesize that even a single static
> web page with a list of, say, 50 of PB&F's most
> popular designs with their prices (no pictures,
> even) would significantly increase plan sales
> revenue in a pretty short time.

Of course it would ... and a fully fledged site that archives all his
available designs would be even better (this could come later of
course)!

I would be extremely happy to go to Glouster personally, meet Mr.
Bolger, stay there until I have scanned and archived every Bolger
design he can come up with, and put them all on a new web site for
him -- with prices and a credit card accepting online store and
guaranteed shipment within one week -- all of which I would be happy to
take care of for him on an ongoing basis.

I would also include an online builder's forum which would practically
eliminate most of the repetitive inquiries from potential builders.
Instead of bothering PB&F with little things, builders could "support
themselves" by using the forum as a helpful archive or library of other
people's experiences when building their Bolger boats. They could also
ask new questions and receive quick replies in the forum when they had
a pressing question about their current build.

The results from such an effort would probably double or triple PB&F's
plans sales income in no time, even if a significant percentage of the
revenues were set aside to cover the ongoing plans reproduction and
delivery expenses and the web-based marketing costs.

Unfortunately this is not practical for me to attempt unless I can come
up with a way to "feed my family" during the months I might invest in
such a potentially large archiving project. Renting a large scanner
would make sense too but this also adds to the costs. So far I have
not figured out how to do this financially, but I think it was almost
two years ago when the thought first occurred to me, and I still think
about it frequently ...

I am bothered by the possibility that when Phil and/or Susanne die
leaving no younger heirs to carry on their plans sales business most of
PB&F's designs might be lost, then future builders will never be able
to benefit from their work. This is why I would love to be the one to
archive his work for posterity. I think it would gives me a chance to
provide something permanent and really valuable to the backyard boat
building community.

I never made such a proposal to PB&F of course, but only because I do
not have a solution to the financial issue. If I could figure out how
to have an ongoing income while I'm there archiving his work I would
not hesitate to contact him, make my proposal, and hope he might
accept.

Phil is not getting any younger, and if he doesn't have the time to do
this himself it would be a shame if he actually wanted something like
this to happen but no one else were able to help him.

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com

Phil Bolger & Friends

Fax: (978) 282-1349

cecil_severs <cecil_severs@...> wrote: --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wagner <willers32@...> wrote:

>
> I had occasion to visit with Phil and Suzanne back in May. (They seem

to respond most quickly to faxes.) I faxed them a note to say I was in
the area and had built an AS-29 and that I currently live aboard. They
graciously invited me over and we spent the whole day chatting about
boats, his philosophy of design, etc.

So do you happen to have that fax# handy? I'm very interested in
Bantam plans but have gotten no response from my letter to PB&F. In
case you don't want to post his fax or phone #s on this forum you can
email me at:cecil.severs@...

Thanks,

Cecil

Ron Paul for President
Hope for America
Be part of it.

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wagner <willers32@...> wrote:

>
> I had occasion to visit with Phil and Suzanne back in May. (They seem

This is speculation on my part. I think Mr. Bolger believes he has an
obligation to help purchasers of his plans get past the
head-scratching parts of construction by answering their questions.
Once having reached critical mass of plans in circulation (legitimate
and not!), supporting the builders could become overwhelming.
Especially when you are 80 and have many pressing projects competing
for your attention. In this context, the sale of one more set of
Micro plans may not seem so worthwhile to the seller. It will surely
generate one more inquiry of "can't I build the keel this way instead
of what's shown on the plans?" I think he is quite happy to leave
that duty to Dynamite Payson for the instant boat collection. Anyone
on this list care to fill the builder support role for the remainder
of the catalog?

I had asked about blending elements of Birdwatcher 1 and 2 before I
built mine. PB&F pointedly declined to comment. After I wrote them
with a report on how the hybrid boat went together and performed, they
replied that they agreed with the changes. The lesson is it is best
not to pester them with small details and you are on your own with
proposed deviations from the designs as drawn.

An easy way to generate plans sales, if they wanted it, would be to
use Duckworks. You can order Michalak plans there for instance,
paying a small mark-up versus buying directly from the designer and
being able to enter a credit card order on line. The orders are
filled by Mr. Michalak himself, so he retains control of the drawings
and the rights to the designs.

Doug

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sierraclb1728" <josh1728@...> wrote:
>
> I never meant to suggest anything far-fetched like Phil Bolger as
> webmaster. What I should have said is: If one ventures out onto the
> World Wide Web with an aim to acquire PB&F's Micro plans, then that
> person is led to believe that those plans can be purchased through
> PB&F. But in reality, this has proven to be problematic. And,
> worst of all, PB&F sheds no light on the situation.
> Josh in California
>
>

Some thoughts from a person of 73 years.

There comes a time in a relationship when one no longer tries to "fix" one's partner. "Que sera, sera."

If one touches a nerve, one gets a quick response. I sent a fax which cited a problem in their marketing of their cure for the fishing industry. Within hours I got a loooong phone call. The fact that I was building a Chebacco was really incidental and "just for nice." I think it comes down to that word which is unspeakable for the "entitled" generation -- discipline.

Yes, I was raised to believe that one's word was gospel. If you agreed to deliver X for Y and received Y, then you did whatever was required to make the delivery. Bygone times, I fear.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: adventures_in_astrophotography
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:27 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?

Bruce,

> Regarding the long waits for commissioned work, that is something
> else. Still this is not like hiring a mechanical technician, it is
> more like hiring an artist. You are buying 'inspiration', and
> inspiration is hard to catch in a bottle. I suspect you do not really
> want an uninspired Bolger design.

No matter how I describe this issue or respond to your comments, there
is sure to be a chorus of like responses implying, subtly or not, that
I'm a whiner who just needs to be patient. Such is the nature of
written comments without the context of personal interaction. Yours is
only one example of the persistent notion that PB&F are merely waiting
for the right inspiration to produce the artwork that will become our
commission. This romantic vision of the commission process may be true
for some of their clients; it is a far cry from our case.

We were not sold inspiration. We were sold a specific design concept in
response to the inspiration we supplied in 2001 with our wish list. We
accepted their proposal to develop the concept into a buildable design
in a specified period of time (10-15 months) and paid thousands to
further that effort. PB&F have been very clear about the reasons for
their delays in completing commissioned work and never once have they
mentioned inspiration being a cause. In fact, they have openly
questioned their own business ethics in this regard (in the opening
Messing About in Fishing Boats article, I believe).

This last point is a valid issue from our perspective, particularly as
numerous faxes over the years have gone unanswered, and delays have
always been communicated long after the fact. For example, we just
learned in July that they stopped work on all commissions in Sept of
last year - by reading it in MAIB (same article as above). This
stoppage happened only a few days after they had just called to tell us
they were working on our design again and would have it finished last
winter. It would have been nice to hear the bad news from them at that
time instead of reading about it in MAIB months later.

I hate to sound like I'm running down an 80-year old man and his wife,
but I want people to understand that there are real issues with their
business practices, and it's naive to write it all off to an artists'
inspiration or lack thereof. Besides, he was only 74 when we signed up.

Despite what it probably seems like in this forum, we have never once
complained about the delays to PB&F, and in fact have been the model of
patience for 6-1/2 years. We remain patient and hopeful that
eventually our commission will be completed.

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bruce,

> Regarding the long waits for commissioned work, that is something
> else. Still this is not like hiring a mechanical technician, it is
> more like hiring an artist. You are buying 'inspiration', and
> inspiration is hard to catch in a bottle. I suspect you do not really
> want an uninspired Bolger design.

No matter how I describe this issue or respond to your comments, there
is sure to be a chorus of like responses implying, subtly or not, that
I'm a whiner who just needs to be patient. Such is the nature of
written comments without the context of personal interaction. Yours is
only one example of the persistent notion that PB&F are merely waiting
for the right inspiration to produce the artwork that will become our
commission. This romantic vision of the commission process may be true
for some of their clients; it is a far cry from our case.

We were not sold inspiration. We were sold a specific design concept in
response to the inspiration we supplied in 2001 with our wish list. We
accepted their proposal to develop the concept into a buildable design
in a specified period of time (10-15 months) and paid thousands to
further that effort. PB&F have been very clear about the reasons for
their delays in completing commissioned work and never once have they
mentioned inspiration being a cause. In fact, they have openly
questioned their own business ethics in this regard (in the opening
Messing About in Fishing Boats article, I believe).

This last point is a valid issue from our perspective, particularly as
numerous faxes over the years have gone unanswered, and delays have
always been communicated long after the fact. For example, we just
learned in July that they stopped work on all commissions in Sept of
last year - by reading it in MAIB (same article as above). This
stoppage happened only a few days after they had just called to tell us
they were working on our design again and would have it finished last
winter. It would have been nice to hear the bad news from them at that
time instead of reading about it in MAIB months later.

I hate to sound like I'm running down an 80-year old man and his wife,
but I want people to understand that there are real issues with their
business practices, and it's naive to write it all off to an artists'
inspiration or lack thereof. Besides, he was only 74 when we signed up.

Despite what it probably seems like in this forum, we have never once
complained about the delays to PB&F, and in fact have been the model of
patience for 6-1/2 years. We remain patient and hopeful that
eventually our commission will be completed.

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

Suzanne, Phil's wife, is quite a bit younger than he and a designer in her own right. I would image that she will keep the fires burning after he's gone, though he doesn't show signs of leaving us just yet.

lancasterdennis <dlancast@...> wrote: -
PCB and Dynamite are both in their 80's? What will happen when they
are gone? Is anyone stepping up to the plate to keep the torch
going? I am also interested in owning a set of Micro plans. It
would be nice to have a common source for it all.

Regards,

Dennis
Bellingham, WA

-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:

>
> PS: I would hypothesize that even a single static web page with a

list

> > of, say, 50 of PB&F's most popular designs with their prices (no
> > pictures, even) would significantly increase plan sales revenue

in a

> > pretty short time.
>
>
> Exactly! That is why after long discussion with Dynamite (who is

also

> 80 this year I beleive) we decided to start the Instant boat Yahoo
> group. In the links section of that site is the ability to contact

him

> for plans.
>
> If this site would do the same with a link to the most popular PB
> designs with prices the whole process would be streamlined for

everyone

> concerned. We have found that people wanting plans from PB&Friends
> can't find the design #'s or the prices anywhere on the net.
>
> If that information was avaiable PB would not have to answer

endless

> letters asking for information about pricing but reply to letters

with

> checks for a particular design.
>
> I hope someone who has great respect for PB would make his life

easier

> as well as others desireing his plans by making this information
> available. New boat builders who have the same apprecaition as all
> those who are long time members of these boards would like to be

able

> to build what they appreciate without the existing frustrations.
>
> Jim
>

Ron Paul for President
Hope for America
Be part of it.

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I never meant to suggest anything far-fetched like Phil Bolger as
webmaster. What I should have said is: If one ventures out onto the
World Wide Web with an aim to acquire PB&F's Micro plans, then that
person is led to believe that those plans can be purchased through
PB&F. But in reality, this has proven to be problematic. And,
worst of all, PB&F sheds no light on the situation.
Josh in California

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> On 9/13/07, sierraclb1728 <josh1728@...> wrote:
>
> >... he is also at this very moment (on the world wide web)
implying
> > that he is actively engaged in running a designs-for-sale
business.
>
> I am pretty sure that PB&F has zero presence on the world wide web
> selling their plans.
>
> Heck, PCB is well known to eschew the use of a telephone.
>
> Essentially all the selling of which I am aware, is a sentence or
two
> at the bottom of their bi-weekly article in the magazine MAIB
offering
> to sell that featured plan du jour. (Presumably, this is efficient
> because they can do the 'print job' easily this way.) They don't
> advertise to sell old plans from their non-existent catalog, like
the
> Micro.
>
> I think this problem is a bit imaginary, because they do almost
always
> quickly respond to faxes and snail mail, though with a few
exceptions
> which must be expected due to human error and lost mail, etc..
>
> Regarding the long waits for commissioned work, that is something
> else. Still this is not like hiring a mechanical technician, it is
> more like hiring an artist. You are buying 'inspiration', and
> inspiration is hard to catch in a bottle. I suspect you do not
really
> want an uninspired Bolger design.
>
> I am reminded of the Robert Hunter lyrics: "we pay the (story)
teller
> off in gold, with hopes he will come back, but he cannot be bought
or
> sold".
>

-
PCB and Dynamite are both in their 80's? What will happen when they
are gone? Is anyone stepping up to the plate to keep the torch
going? I am also interested in owning a set of Micro plans. It
would be nice to have a common source for it all.

Regards,

Dennis
Bellingham, WA

-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:

>
> PS: I would hypothesize that even a single static web page with a

list

> > of, say, 50 of PB&F's most popular designs with their prices (no
> > pictures, even) would significantly increase plan sales revenue

in a

> > pretty short time.
>
>
> Exactly! That is why after long discussion with Dynamite (who is

also

> 80 this year I beleive) we decided to start the Instant boat Yahoo
> group. In the links section of that site is the ability to contact

him

> for plans.
>
> If this site would do the same with a link to the most popular PB
> designs with prices the whole process would be streamlined for

everyone

> concerned. We have found that people wanting plans from PB&Friends
> can't find the design #'s or the prices anywhere on the net.
>
> If that information was avaiable PB would not have to answer

endless

> letters asking for information about pricing but reply to letters

with

> checks for a particular design.
>
> I hope someone who has great respect for PB would make his life

easier

> as well as others desireing his plans by making this information
> available. New boat builders who have the same apprecaition as all
> those who are long time members of these boards would like to be

able

> to build what they appreciate without the existing frustrations.
>
> Jim
>

PS: I would hypothesize that even a single static web page with a list

> of, say, 50 of PB&F's most popular designs with their prices (no
> pictures, even) would significantly increase plan sales revenue in a
> pretty short time.

Exactly! That is why after long discussion with Dynamite (who is also
80 this year I beleive) we decided to start the Instant boat Yahoo
group. In the links section of that site is the ability to contact him
for plans.

If this site would do the same with a link to the most popular PB
designs with prices the whole process would be streamlined for everyone
concerned. We have found that people wanting plans from PB&Friends
can't find the design #'s or the prices anywhere on the net.

If that information was avaiable PB would not have to answer endless
letters asking for information about pricing but reply to letters with
checks for a particular design.

I hope someone who has great respect for PB would make his life easier
as well as others desireing his plans by making this information
available. New boat builders who have the same apprecaition as all
those who are long time members of these boards would like to be able
to build what they appreciate without the existing frustrations.

Jim

On 9/13/07, sierraclb1728 <josh1728@...> wrote:

>... he is also at this very moment (on the world wide web) implying
> that he is actively engaged in running a designs-for-sale business.

I am pretty sure that PB&F has zero presence on the world wide web
selling their plans.

Heck, PCB is well known to eschew the use of a telephone.

Essentially all the selling of which I am aware, is a sentence or two
at the bottom of their bi-weekly article in the magazine MAIB offering
to sell that featured plan du jour. (Presumably, this is efficient
because they can do the 'print job' easily this way.) They don't
advertise to sell old plans from their non-existent catalog, like the
Micro.

I think this problem is a bit imaginary, because they do almost always
quickly respond to faxes and snail mail, though with a few exceptions
which must be expected due to human error and lost mail, etc..

Regarding the long waits for commissioned work, that is something
else. Still this is not like hiring a mechanical technician, it is
more like hiring an artist. You are buying 'inspiration', and
inspiration is hard to catch in a bottle. I suspect you do not really
want an uninspired Bolger design.

I am reminded of the Robert Hunter lyrics: "we pay the (story)teller
off in gold, with hopes he will come back, but he cannot be bought or
sold".

Hi Bruce,

> The real issue is the premise.
>
> Which is: Phil Bolger's has a duty to satisfy impatient other

people.

>
> And a better question is: Which 80 year old has a duty spend their
> precious time doing anything other than exactly what they want to do?

While I generally agree with your better question and I have no desire
to start an argument, let's examine the premise more closely.

Each issue of MAIB includes a de-facto advertisement for PB&F in their
column, where each design discussed normally concludes with a
solicitation to buy plans from them, quoting the price and the mailing
address. This is a promise that if you send your money, you'll get a
set of plans.

Custom design clients have been required to pay significant sums to
PB&F in exchange for a promise to produce a design. Again there is a
promise to provide something in exchange for money.

So yes, I agree that 80-somethings should generally do whatever the
heck they want, but when they promise goods and services in exchange
for money, I believe there is a duty to meet those commitments in a
reasonable amount of time, regardless of age. I don't want to go off
on another discussion of what that time should be, but at least in the
case of stock plans sales, several weeks or months does indeed sound a
bit long. Obviously there could be many reasons for this delay, most
of which are innocent.

Also recall that several times in recent MAIB columns, PB&F have
alluded to "financial necessity" or similiar conditions, implying the
need to sell plans and generate revenue.

Taken together, all of these facts suggest to me that it is entirely
reasonable to ask the question "why are Micro plans so hard to get?"
However, it is certainly unreasonable and inappropriate to ask that
question in the rude manner of the original post on this subject.

Let me be clear again that I'm not defending the original author or
trying to start an argument.

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

PS: I would hypothesize that even a single static web page with a list
of, say, 50 of PB&F's most popular designs with their prices (no
pictures, even) would significantly increase plan sales revenue in a
pretty short time.

I don't hear a lot of people holding PB&Friends responsible. The
original poster in this thread has the reasonable expectation that
he will get a response. His complaint, albeit a tad rough, is not
the first of its kind. While it is true that 80-year-old PB should
be able to do almost whatever he wants, he is also at this very
moment (on the world wide web) implying that he is actively engaged
in running a designs-for-sale business. By doing this, he
essentially promises to respond to inquiries, send plans, and, in
short, conduct business. It can be argued that he is not following
through on this promise.
There are at least two quick fixes: first, PB&Friends puts out
the word that they are (for whatever reason) semi-retired and that
plans buyers should allow a year (or ten, or whatever) for order
turnarounds. Second, close or sell the business.
PB should not be held to a different 'politeness standard' than
other people even if he is the designer of some well-liked
homebuilders' boats. Agreed?
Josh in California

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mrfirkin" <thurcros@...> wrote:
>
> This is all starting to piss me off.
>
> First I write to Bolger to buy plans and get no reply.
Professional
> service that! The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for
gods
> sake!
>
> Then, another bloke on here saw my plight and said, 'Hey Mate,
I'll
> send you my old set of Micro plans, No worries'. He was obviously
> full of shit.
>
> Then there is some 'dodgy' bloke (Commonsense Boat Plans) that
sells
> poor quality PDF file versions for big bucks. Gerry Estes ???
>
> After all this crap, I'm amazed any Micros ever got built.
>
> Well, F**K it. I'll start looking for other designs that are
> professionally supported and with good customer service.
>
> Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
> anyway.
>
> Bye all.
>
> Paul.
>

I had occasion to visit with Phil and Suzanne back in May. (They seem to respond most quickly to faxes.) I faxed them a note to say I was in the area and had built an AS-29 and that I currently live aboard. They graciously invited me over and we spent the whole day chatting about boats, his philosophy of design, etc.

Suzanne told me that they are "in the process" of setting up a website and getting email, etc. She didn't indicate any particular time frame. I got the feeling they are not in any hurry.

Phil is still very old fashioned and Suzanne a bit more modern. But still, at this point I think they are more interested in just enjoying life together, working on their home, being involved with their local community, etc. They just finished an intensive 3 year secret project for the Navy. I think they are taking a break. Hey, the guy is 80 and deserves to do what he wants with his time.

They do make quite a pair when you see them together. Talk about a study in contrasts...

Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote: > On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:13:06 -0700, Graeme wrote:

>
> >> The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!
> >
> > Name one other 80 year old that does

The real issue is the premise.

Which is: Phil Bolger's has a duty to satisfy impatient other people.

And a better question is: Which 80 year old has a duty spend their
precious time doing anything other than exactly what they want to do?

Ron Paul for President
Hope for America
Be part of it.

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hear, Hear!

Christopher C. Wetherill
PROCESS TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
619R Franklin Street
Reading, PA 19611

-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Bruce Hallman
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:18 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?

> On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:13:06 -0700, Graeme wrote:
>
> >> The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!
> >
> > Name one other 80 year old that does

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:13:06 -0700, Graeme wrote:

>> The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!
>
> Name one other 80 year old that does

Pat Atkin

--
John <jkohnen@...>
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
<William Pitt>

To:bolger@yahoogroups.comFrom:goldranger02-boats@...: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:09:27 -0700Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?

Some people think the world is here to serve them! Things don't always go the way one wants. Some people take vacations. Mail gets lost! For goodness sake, chill.Sincerely, Gene T."We may have all come on different ships, but we are in the same boat now" -- Rev. Martin Luther King----- Original Message ----From: mrfirkin <thurcros@...>To:bolger@yahoogroups.comSent: Sunday, September 9, 2007 9:21:34 AMSubject: [bolger] Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@ ...> wrote:>> > The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!> > Name one other 80 year old that does>I can't. But what does it matter. I mailed the bloke and never got a reply. He is not God. Just a boat designer. And after seeing reviews on his Martha Jane design, not a very good one at that.I think we have all been hoodwinked by this so called Genius, 'legend'.I'd call him, Mr Packing Crate. ..... and he designs leaky, unsafe ones at that. Plain ugly designs that are destined to sink. Let me add something.
I agree. His boat are designed for simple reasons for 1st time or limited builders/users.

I know he had the ability to design boats that were complicated and diverse as I note this each time I am aboard the Out O" Gloucester.

I think he just kicked back in the 60's to make simple boat plans.

Ofcourse, anyone willing to spend time and money to make them in to a reality is no skin off his back! lol

All risk is assumed by the buyer of these drawings and dreams.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_________________________________________________________________
Can you find the hidden words? Take a break and play Seekadoo!
http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Some people think the world is here to serve them! Things don't always go the way one wants. Some people take vacations. Mail gets lost! For goodness sake, chill.

Sincerely, Gene T.

"We may have all come on different ships, but we are in the same boat now" -- Rev. Martin Luther King

----- Original Message ----
From: mrfirkin <thurcros@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2007 9:21:34 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?

--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@ ...>

wrote:

>

> > The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!

>

> Name one other 80 year old that does

>

I can't. But what does it matter.

I mailed the bloke and never got a reply.

He is not God. Just a boat designer. And after seeing reviews on his

Martha Jane design, not a very good one at that.

I think we have all been hoodwinked by this so called Genius, 'legend'.

I'd call him, Mr Packing Crate. ..... and he designs leaky, unsafe ones

at that. Plain ugly designs that are destined to sink.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I only ment to say that during the rebuilding of a boat. A large carvel
planked 50 footer in Olympia Wa. I did not have another boat for use and
was basicly stuck on the hard (drydock area) for 13 mos. Normally I
have another boat to use for breaks away from the rebuilding process. In
this case. The boat was requiring 14 hour days, 6 days a week and was
wearing me out.
I was so caught up in the needs and demands of the boat, I neglected to
have a boat. Big mistake not taking the time to unwind on the water.

Anyway, that boat is launched and cruising the Puget Sound under another
owner. I am down sized into a 30 footer with a tender.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <Robb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi.....please describe the one time that you didn't come out with a
good boat.......Robb
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 1:17 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?
>
>
> beter yet, shop Craigslist for a boat. Couple thousand gets you
alot!
> Go boating and do a little wood boat in your garage for fun.
> All but one time during boat building or rebuilding ive had a good
> running boat. Can't stand the months of building or rebuilding
without
> being on the water. Plus: boating helps you determine ideas and
changes
> you may want to make for the area of water you will be on.
> Otherwise you are only dreaming and guessing in the shop. Oh, and
making
> boat noises.
> Its funny; in the shop you start to think the boat is larger and
larger.
> Then you put it into the water and it shrinks really fast into a
much
> smaller boat! Poof! and Surprize! its NOT a Yacht! LOL!!!!
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ch_bunch" ch_bunch@ wrote:
> >
> > You sound impatient. I suggest you buy a boat, it's much faster
than
> > building. :)
> >
> > carl
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi.....please describe the one time that you didn't come out with a good boat.......Robb

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 1:17 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Why are Micro plans so hard to get ?

beter yet, shop Craigslist for a boat. Couple thousand gets you alot!
Go boating and do a little wood boat in your garage for fun.
All but one time during boat building or rebuilding ive had a good
running boat. Can't stand the months of building or rebuilding without
being on the water. Plus: boating helps you determine ideas and changes
you may want to make for the area of water you will be on.
Otherwise you are only dreaming and guessing in the shop. Oh, and making
boat noises.
Its funny; in the shop you start to think the boat is larger and larger.
Then you put it into the water and it shrinks really fast into a much
smaller boat! Poof! and Surprize! its NOT a Yacht! LOL!!!!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ch_bunch" <ch_bunch@...> wrote:
>
> You sound impatient. I suggest you buy a boat, it's much faster than
> building. :)
>
> carl
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,
You should consider Devlin boats. Very well designed and they do very,
very well on re-sale market. They sell for much more then you may
think.
They are a serious build. Yet, they have a good number of boats and a
very well writ book on building boats.

Photos of all the Devlin Boats.

Ive been to their large shop/home on the Puget Sound. These boats are
built. And built to be sea worthy.

http://www.devlinboat.com/photoalbum.htm

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Paul sorry you are having such bad luck, but it is more likely you
would have had better luck sending Mr Bolger a fax. We all know he has a
lot going on with all the design work he has been doing.
>
> I also think sending him a fax would be more of a here it is, and not
lost in the shuffle of papers. Things do get lost in the mail system
too.
>
> But if you are in such a big hurry I think you would be better off to
buy a used boat and not build one. If this is ticking you off, I don't
think you have the temperment to build a boat. Building a boat is a lot
of man hours and at times very little to show for the hours of work you
have put in!
>
> Kristine
>
> mrfirkin thurcros@... wrote: This is all
starting to piss me off.
>
> First I write to Bolger to buy plans and get no reply. Professional
> service that! The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods
> sake!
>
> Then, another bloke on here saw my plight and said, 'Hey Mate, I'll
> send you my old set of Micro plans, No worries'. He was obviously
> full of shit.
>
> Then there is some 'dodgy' bloke (Commonsense Boat Plans) that sells
> poor quality PDF file versions for big bucks. Gerry Estes ???
>
> After all this crap, I'm amazed any Micros ever got built.
>
> Well, F**K it. I'll start looking for other designs that are
> professionally supported and with good customer service.
>
> Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
> anyway.
>
> Bye all.
>
> Paul.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Building a website is a piece of cake.
> Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

beter yet, shop Craigslist for a boat. Couple thousand gets you alot!
Go boating and do a little wood boat in your garage for fun.
All but one time during boat building or rebuilding ive had a good
running boat. Can't stand the months of building or rebuilding without
being on the water. Plus: boating helps you determine ideas and changes
you may want to make for the area of water you will be on.
Otherwise you are only dreaming and guessing in the shop. Oh, and making
boat noises.
Its funny; in the shop you start to think the boat is larger and larger.
Then you put it into the water and it shrinks really fast into a much
smaller boat! Poof! and Surprize! its NOT a Yacht! LOL!!!!

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ch_bunch" <ch_bunch@...> wrote:
>
> You sound impatient. I suggest you buy a boat, it's much faster than
> building. :)
>
> carl
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:

>
> On 9/9/07, mrfirkin <thurcros@...> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
> > anyway.
> >
> > Bye all.
> >
> > Paul.
>
>
> Troll.

Amen. You wrote what I thought.
Trolls are best to be ignored.
Cheers,
Stefan

I wrote and faxed Mr Bolger several times, even sent a check that was
returned. My interest was in the Sitka Exporer or a slightly longer
version there of, I am sure he is overwhelmed. Maybe another designer
should work on similar style plans?

-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kessler" <jkess777@...> wrote:

>
> > Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
> > anyway.
>
> Paul,
> Maybe your venting your frustration since you did want plans to build
> your "shipping crate". On the other hand your point is valid. It isn't
> easy to get plans. We run accross your complaint frequently on the
> Instant boat messageboards. Here is a thread of someone who acted
> properly and the advice he recieved.
>http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1879
> At any rate you will probally get a better response if you sent
> PB&Friends a fax.
>
> Jim
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:

>
> > The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!
>
> Name one other 80 year old that does
>

My dad (email, not website)is Phil's age and addicted to email

Paul H.

Paul sorry you are having such bad luck, but it is more likely you would have had better luck sending Mr Bolger a fax. We all know he has a lot going on with all the design work he has been doing.

I also think sending him a fax would be more of a here it is, and not lost in the shuffle of papers. Things do get lost in the mail system too.

But if you are in such a big hurry I think you would be better off to buy a used boat and not build one. If this is ticking you off, I don't think you have the temperment to build a boat. Building a boat is a lot of man hours and at times very little to show for the hours of work you have put in!

Kristine

mrfirkin <thurcros@...> wrote: This is all starting to piss me off.

First I write to Bolger to buy plans and get no reply. Professional
service that! The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods
sake!

Then, another bloke on here saw my plight and said, 'Hey Mate, I'll
send you my old set of Micro plans, No worries'. He was obviously
full of shit.

Then there is some 'dodgy' bloke (Commonsense Boat Plans) that sells
poor quality PDF file versions for big bucks. Gerry Estes ???

After all this crap, I'm amazed any Micros ever got built.

Well, F**K it. I'll start looking for other designs that are
professionally supported and with good customer service.

Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
anyway.

Bye all.

Paul.

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
> anyway.

Paul,
Maybe your venting your frustration since you did want plans to build
your "shipping crate". On the other hand your point is valid. It isn't
easy to get plans. We run accross your complaint frequently on the
Instant boat messageboards. Here is a thread of someone who acted
properly and the advice he recieved.
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1879
At any rate you will probally get a better response if you sent
PB&Friends a fax.

Jim

On 9/9/07, mrfirkin <thurcros@...> wrote:

>
> Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
> anyway.
>
> Bye all.
>
> Paul.

Troll.

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/posts/list.m?topic_id=12200012985

You sound impatient. I suggest you buy a boat, it's much faster than
building. :)

carl

> And after seeing reviews on his Martha Jane design, not a very good
> one at that.

And just who might have written those, eh? I've seen only two, and both
those guys are trying to flogg other designs, LOL. One ripped off
Bolger on plan sales for years. You may have seen him have another bs
dig at MJ in print recently in AABB? NIS? nuts. The particular boat he
mentioned crossed wider stormier seas than he dared, did get knocked
down, recovered, and is still cruising full time getting on now for 20
years, not getting polished on the trailer for the next sales pitch!

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:

>
> > The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!
>
> Name one other 80 year old that does
>

> The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods sake!

Name one other 80 year old that does

This is all starting to piss me off.

First I write to Bolger to buy plans and get no reply. Professional
service that! The bloke doesn't even have a website or email for gods
sake!

Then, another bloke on here saw my plight and said, 'Hey Mate, I'll
send you my old set of Micro plans, No worries'. He was obviously
full of shit.

Then there is some 'dodgy' bloke (Commonsense Boat Plans) that sells
poor quality PDF file versions for big bucks. Gerry Estes ???

After all this crap, I'm amazed any Micros ever got built.

Well, F**K it. I'll start looking for other designs that are
professionally supported and with good customer service.

Maybe I have been dealt a favour. They do look like packing crates
anyway.

Bye all.

Paul.