re: Badger, sailing dories, Bolger priorities, etc.
Paul,
Thanks for posting this link. I had missed it.
on the part of those who don't read carefully and, in addition, take
the emphatic language too seriously. Our public discourse in the year
2000 is too often tempered with 'sort of', and 'somewhat',
and 'perhaps.' Writers like Bolger and Limbaugh get a reputation for
being clear thinkers just by leaving them out.
Actually, as near as I can tell, Bolger is a clear thinker, but
Limbaugh is not.
Anyway, there are a couple of points I would make.
1. Although AS-29 is derived from the sharpie and Badger is derived
from the dory, they are actually quite similar in length, weight, and
the breadth of the flat bottom. In my opinion, it is hard to denounce
one without damaging the other.
2. At this time, Mr. Bolger is extremely interested in shallow draft
boats, or should I say, he seems to be very uninterested in deep
draft boats. This puts him out-of-step with the majority of
designers. Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
performance, and there is no sign of a mass defection to
centerboard/leeboard boats. Or if there is, it is restricted to multi-
hull sailors. To pick out one designer on the other side of the
fence, Robert Perry has several times suggested in his review column
in Sailing that some designer has limited the performance of a design
by keeping the draft to "only" 5' or 6' or whatever.
Mr. Bolger sails in a shallow bay in Massachusetts and Mr. Perry
sails in the deep waters of the Northwest....
So I presume that Mr. Bolger finds Badger too deep, Mr. Perry finds
Badger too shoal, and Mr. Benford takes pride in a design that has
taken its crew safely across oceans.
Peter
Thanks for posting this link. I had missed it.
>http://www.egroups.com/message/bolger/1256?&start=690This is exactly the sort of post that creates a lot of misconceptions
on the part of those who don't read carefully and, in addition, take
the emphatic language too seriously. Our public discourse in the year
2000 is too often tempered with 'sort of', and 'somewhat',
and 'perhaps.' Writers like Bolger and Limbaugh get a reputation for
being clear thinkers just by leaving them out.
Actually, as near as I can tell, Bolger is a clear thinker, but
Limbaugh is not.
Anyway, there are a couple of points I would make.
1. Although AS-29 is derived from the sharpie and Badger is derived
from the dory, they are actually quite similar in length, weight, and
the breadth of the flat bottom. In my opinion, it is hard to denounce
one without damaging the other.
2. At this time, Mr. Bolger is extremely interested in shallow draft
boats, or should I say, he seems to be very uninterested in deep
draft boats. This puts him out-of-step with the majority of
designers. Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
performance, and there is no sign of a mass defection to
centerboard/leeboard boats. Or if there is, it is restricted to multi-
hull sailors. To pick out one designer on the other side of the
fence, Robert Perry has several times suggested in his review column
in Sailing that some designer has limited the performance of a design
by keeping the draft to "only" 5' or 6' or whatever.
Mr. Bolger sails in a shallow bay in Massachusetts and Mr. Perry
sails in the deep waters of the Northwest....
So I presume that Mr. Bolger finds Badger too deep, Mr. Perry finds
Badger too shoal, and Mr. Benford takes pride in a design that has
taken its crew safely across oceans.
Peter
PCB's remarks on the Benford sailing dory "Badger" were from this
forum, embedded in message # 1256 regarding junk-rig mods to his AS29
design, sometime last year I think. Having read and re-read Annie
Hills book numerous times, I found it worth bookmarking, so here is
the link:
http://www.egroups.com/message/bolger/1256?&start=690
forum, embedded in message # 1256 regarding junk-rig mods to his AS29
design, sometime last year I think. Having read and re-read Annie
Hills book numerous times, I found it worth bookmarking, so here is
the link:
http://www.egroups.com/message/bolger/1256?&start=690
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, cml@t... wrote:
>
>
> david wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> > the "Badger" design by Phil Bolger). Btw, Bolger had some
> > sour things to say about this design after the Hills visited him
>
> and Mark wrote:
> > I'm not surprised Bolger panned the other Badger. As a
> > proposition, the Sailing Dory is not myth, but fallacy, to him.
>
>
> So.... what sour things did BCB say about the Hill boat, and why is
a
> Sailing Dory a fallacy? Not objecting, just interested :)
>
> Chris
Thanks for replying David,
eliminate the hull shape for a sailboat, especially as they are reputed
to become much more stable as they are loaded? I guess the answer to
this will emerge when you dig out 'the master's words' :)
(although, no it isn't an as29), I agree about the draft, and I disagree
with Bolger about the junk rig (i'm totally unqualified to, but since
when did that ever stop someone holding an opinion :) )
boat seems to work well.
Cheers,
Chris
> Uh, unable to reference, but Bolger's basic view is that the doryHmmm, we know the origins of the dory, but why would that necessarily
> is a rowboat for hand line fishing designed to nest with others of its
> type on the deck of a Grand Banks schooner and, as such, it makes
> a questionable cruising sailboat.
eliminate the hull shape for a sailboat, especially as they are reputed
to become much more stable as they are loaded? I guess the answer to
this will emerge when you dig out 'the master's words' :)
> As for the Hill's "Badger",The interior size seems more than adequate according to Annie Hill
> specifically, Bolger found fault with the interior (too small for the
> length, beam and displacement of the vessel), the draft (over five
> feet prior to replacing the original ballast keel), and the rig (I think
> little needs to be said about what Bolger thinks of junk sails).
(although, no it isn't an as29), I agree about the draft, and I disagree
with Bolger about the junk rig (i'm totally unqualified to, but since
when did that ever stop someone holding an opinion :) )
> Personally, I like the looks of the boat, and the Hills haveI love the looks of it, and particularly like the raised deck cabin. The
> certainly not been much restricted in their wanderings, whatever the
> faults inherent in Badger's conception.
boat seems to work well.
Cheers,
Chris
Bolger's views on the dory for sailing (and Power) are a thread
throughout his writings starting with Small Boats.
Bolger's opinions on design are strongly held, and based on an
incredible amount of experience. I don't know how you would
quantify it but, subjectively it would appear that Bolger has had
more different designs built than any other individual. He has
been unafraid to make and learn from mistakes, and writes about
his designs and creative process in a way that only be called
Literature with a Capital L. While he frequently goes places that
I have no desire to go, the reason trail of how he got there is
understandable and hard to refute.
Having said that, there is one area that I would question him
further, and that is over the Junk Rig. I have no personnel
experience in with it, but I hope to. There is a lot of variation
and opinions with in the Junk rig users, with very little actual
writing about experimentation, or at least I haven't found it.
I would love to have a discourse between Colvin and Bolger on the
subject. Do we have the the capability in this forum to get them
involved? Colvin is on line and has been very polite to me when I
ordered up his books on Cruising and the Junk rig. Both these
gentleman have lifetimes of experience and can express them well
in print.
david wrote:
% Harrywelshman@...
throughout his writings starting with Small Boats.
Bolger's opinions on design are strongly held, and based on an
incredible amount of experience. I don't know how you would
quantify it but, subjectively it would appear that Bolger has had
more different designs built than any other individual. He has
been unafraid to make and learn from mistakes, and writes about
his designs and creative process in a way that only be called
Literature with a Capital L. While he frequently goes places that
I have no desire to go, the reason trail of how he got there is
understandable and hard to refute.
Having said that, there is one area that I would question him
further, and that is over the Junk Rig. I have no personnel
experience in with it, but I hope to. There is a lot of variation
and opinions with in the Junk rig users, with very little actual
writing about experimentation, or at least I haven't found it.
I would love to have a discourse between Colvin and Bolger on the
subject. Do we have the the capability in this forum to get them
involved? Colvin is on line and has been very polite to me when I
ordered up his books on Cruising and the Junk rig. Both these
gentleman have lifetimes of experience and can express them well
in print.
david wrote:
>_ _ _ _ _
> Chris,
> Uh, unable to reference, but Bolger's basic view is that the dory
> is a rowboat for hand line fishing designed to nest with others of its
> type on the deck of a Grand Banks schooner and, as such, it makes
> a questionable cruising sailboat. As for the Hill's "Badger",
> specifically, Bolger found fault with the interior (too small for the
> length, beam and displacement of the vessel), the draft (over five
> feet prior to replacing the original ballast keel), and the rig (I think
> little needs to be said about what Bolger thinks of junk sails). I
> guess if you compare it with Bolger's Advanced Sharpies or
> his adaptations of the Thames barge, the criticisms are warranted.
> Personally, I like the looks of the boat, and the Hills have
> certainly not been much restricted in their wanderings, whatever the
> faults inherent in Badger's conception.
> Perhaps someone knows where I picked these nuggets up?
> Probably MAIB, but I'm not sure what issue....
> david
> PS: Oh, all right, I'll slough through the two foot high pile of MAIB
> I've got and find the master's words. Gimme a week or two....
>
>
% Harrywelshman@...
David
While sloughing, slough through the 54 hundred or so
messages in this forum. About a year ago Bolger gave these
views in a message to egroups. Your memory of them agrees
with mine.
Sailing dories are a sore point with PCB. He has never felt they
sail well. Years ago he had an agreement with an outfit in Texas
that sold plans and a packet of study plans. They included quite
a few Bolger designs, mostly power as I recall. As a gimmick,
along with the study plans package they gave away a building
plan for the Gloucester Gull dory (an early incarnation built with a
strongback/mold setup).
When the the plans distributer got the usual chorus of requests
for a sailing version he asked PCB to provide one. He, naturally,
refused, at which point the task was given to another designer.
The plans were still Bolger's, with his name on them. Need I say
more.
Vance
While sloughing, slough through the 54 hundred or so
messages in this forum. About a year ago Bolger gave these
views in a message to egroups. Your memory of them agrees
with mine.
Sailing dories are a sore point with PCB. He has never felt they
sail well. Years ago he had an agreement with an outfit in Texas
that sold plans and a packet of study plans. They included quite
a few Bolger designs, mostly power as I recall. As a gimmick,
along with the study plans package they gave away a building
plan for the Gloucester Gull dory (an early incarnation built with a
strongback/mold setup).
When the the plans distributer got the usual chorus of requests
for a sailing version he asked PCB to provide one. He, naturally,
refused, at which point the task was given to another designer.
The plans were still Bolger's, with his name on them. Need I say
more.
Vance
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, david <galvind@w...> wrote:
Chris,
Uh, unable to reference, but Bolger's basic view is...
PS: Oh, all right, I'll slough through the two foot high pile of MAIB
I've got and find the master's words. Gimme a week or two....
Chris,
Uh, unable to reference, but Bolger's basic view is that the dory
is a rowboat for hand line fishing designed to nest with others of its
type on the deck of a Grand Banks schooner and, as such, it makes
a questionable cruising sailboat. As for the Hill's "Badger",
specifically, Bolger found fault with the interior (too small for the
length, beam and displacement of the vessel), the draft (over five
feet prior to replacing the original ballast keel), and the rig (I think
little needs to be said about what Bolger thinks of junk sails). I
guess if you compare it with Bolger's Advanced Sharpies or
his adaptations of the Thames barge, the criticisms are warranted.
Personally, I like the looks of the boat, and the Hills have
certainly not been much restricted in their wanderings, whatever the
faults inherent in Badger's conception.
Perhaps someone knows where I picked these nuggets up?
Probably MAIB, but I'm not sure what issue....
david
PS: Oh, all right, I'll slough through the two foot high pile of MAIB
I've got and find the master's words. Gimme a week or two....
cml@...wrote:
Uh, unable to reference, but Bolger's basic view is that the dory
is a rowboat for hand line fishing designed to nest with others of its
type on the deck of a Grand Banks schooner and, as such, it makes
a questionable cruising sailboat. As for the Hill's "Badger",
specifically, Bolger found fault with the interior (too small for the
length, beam and displacement of the vessel), the draft (over five
feet prior to replacing the original ballast keel), and the rig (I think
little needs to be said about what Bolger thinks of junk sails). I
guess if you compare it with Bolger's Advanced Sharpies or
his adaptations of the Thames barge, the criticisms are warranted.
Personally, I like the looks of the boat, and the Hills have
certainly not been much restricted in their wanderings, whatever the
faults inherent in Badger's conception.
Perhaps someone knows where I picked these nuggets up?
Probably MAIB, but I'm not sure what issue....
david
PS: Oh, all right, I'll slough through the two foot high pile of MAIB
I've got and find the master's words. Gimme a week or two....
cml@...wrote:
> david wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> > the "Badger" design by Phil Bolger). Btw, Bolger had some
> > sour things to say about this design after the Hills visited him
>
> and Mark wrote:
> > I'm not surprised Bolger panned the other Badger. As a
> > proposition, the Sailing Dory is not myth, but fallacy, to him.
>
> So.... what sour things did BCB say about the Hill boat, and why is a
> Sailing Dory a fallacy? Not objecting, just interested :)
>
> Chris
>
>
> PS: Oh, all right, I'll slough through the two foot high pile of MAIBDavid:
> I've got and find the master's words. Gimme a week or two....
Dave Thibodeau's Index for Messing About In Boats might be helpful:
http://www109.pair.com/btsftp/maib/
Chuck
david wrote:
Sailing Dory a fallacy? Not objecting, just interested :)
Chris
>and Mark wrote:
> Mark,
> the "Badger" design by Phil Bolger). Btw, Bolger had some
> sour things to say about this design after the Hills visited him
> I'm not surprised Bolger panned the other Badger. As aSo.... what sour things did BCB say about the Hill boat, and why is a
> proposition, the Sailing Dory is not myth, but fallacy, to him.
Sailing Dory a fallacy? Not objecting, just interested :)
Chris