RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
Hi Andy:
From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I
have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
epoxy paint. The polyurethane is much easier to apply and to get a nice
finish with though. I used epoxy paint on the cockpit sole of my
Bartender, where it gets lots of abuse. It seems to be holding up very
well so far. Time will tell I guess.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ANDREW AIREY
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:05 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
recollection of using some years ago was that it was
tough and quite flexible
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com<http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I
have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
epoxy paint. The polyurethane is much easier to apply and to get a nice
finish with though. I used epoxy paint on the cockpit sole of my
Bartender, where it gets lots of abuse. It seems to be holding up very
well so far. Time will tell I guess.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ANDREW AIREY
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:05 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
recollection of using some years ago was that it was
tough and quite flexible
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com<http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
recollection of using some years ago was that it was
tough and quite flexible
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
recollection of using some years ago was that it was
tough and quite flexible
cheers
Andy Airey
Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
I recently finished a Michalak stitch and glue version of the Hereshoff Row Boat. I decided to coat the interior with epoxy after the hull was assembled and this turned out to be a big mistake. For awhile, I thought of naming the boat "Drips, Runs, and Errors". There were lots of drips and rums which had to be sanded out in narrow, inconvenient locations, and I hate sanding! Next time, I will do as much coating as I can before assembly with the various pieces of the boat supported at a comfortable working level. Gravity is going to exert its force and I figure that it can work for me as well as against me. Any sanding to required can likewise be done at a comfortable height without contortion.
JohnT
JohnT
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristine Bennett
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.
I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.
I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.
Blessings Krissie
Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.
I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.
I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.
Blessings Krissie
Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.
I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.
Blessings Krissie
Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don -
I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of
my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has
that sits on any painted surface somehow finds its way into the rest of
the plywood and gets trapped. Particularly if the other face is
glassed. I plan on glassing the bottom of the 18' skiff inside and out
for longterm protection from clam rakes, anchors, dog nails (the
labrador has meat hooks for claws), fishing tackle, crab pots, etc.
The boat is so darned heavy to begin with, that I doubt a gallon
of "goo on glass" is going to put the boat past the acceptable weight
limits.
Happy building.
Only two more hours until the sawdust starts flying.
I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of
my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has
that sits on any painted surface somehow finds its way into the rest of
the plywood and gets trapped. Particularly if the other face is
glassed. I plan on glassing the bottom of the 18' skiff inside and out
for longterm protection from clam rakes, anchors, dog nails (the
labrador has meat hooks for claws), fishing tackle, crab pots, etc.
The boat is so darned heavy to begin with, that I doubt a gallon
of "goo on glass" is going to put the boat past the acceptable weight
limits.
Happy building.
Only two more hours until the sawdust starts flying.
Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kristine Bennett
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:18 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about
putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The
hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.
Blessings Krissie
Don Froese <don.froese@...<mailto:don.froese%40kodak.com> >
wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply
for the
bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kristine Bennett
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:18 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about
putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The
hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.
Blessings Krissie
Don Froese <don.froese@...<mailto:don.froese%40kodak.com> >
wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply
for the
bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.
Blessings Krissie
Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Blessings Krissie
Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of adventures_in_astrophotography
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:01 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
Hi Don,
...snip...
bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
If it were me, I'd go for it.
panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.
Cheers,
Don
________________________________
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of adventures_in_astrophotography
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:01 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory
Hi Don,
...snip...
> Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
> marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
> bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
> bottom?
bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
If it were me, I'd go for it.
> Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 10/4/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
dunes and the loose sand.
And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping the boat
light weight, enough to drag it across the sand might be the simpler
option.
> You need a boat-barrow!Perhaps, but it would need a really fat tire to deal with our sand
dunes and the loose sand.
And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping the boat
light weight, enough to drag it across the sand might be the simpler
option.
Hi Don,
...snip...
bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
If it were me, I'd go for it.
panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
...snip...
> Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
> marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
> bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
> bottom?
bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
If it were me, I'd go for it.
> Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
...snip...
it, but basically it's a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from
two 1x4 cedar boards with a couple of 1x4 cross pieces. At the apex
is a plywood fork that mounts a single wheelbarrow wheel and tire. I
use it to carry my Michalak Robote upside-down. Less than $50
invested, much less if you use scrap lumber.
The barrow with boat slides right into the back of the pickup, handle
end forward, with the bow and wheel hanging out from the tailgate. I
suppose it could even be car-topped. It's a 10-second operation to
unstrap it, slide it out of the bed, and start heading for the water.
100 yards is no trouble at all, and the big wheelbarrow tire handles
any terrain I've encountered. I'm planning a slightly beefier two-
wheel version for the Long Light Dory.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> Plus, it needs to be light weightYou need a boat-barrow! I need to get a good photo of mine and post
> enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.
it, but basically it's a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from
two 1x4 cedar boards with a couple of 1x4 cross pieces. At the apex
is a plywood fork that mounts a single wheelbarrow wheel and tire. I
use it to carry my Michalak Robote upside-down. Less than $50
invested, much less if you use scrap lumber.
The barrow with boat slides right into the back of the pickup, handle
end forward, with the bow and wheel hanging out from the tailgate. I
suppose it could even be car-topped. It's a 10-second operation to
unstrap it, slide it out of the bed, and start heading for the water.
100 yards is no trouble at all, and the big wheelbarrow tire handles
any terrain I've encountered. I'm planning a slightly beefier two-
wheel version for the Long Light Dory.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Thanks for the information Jon. Your point about the chine logs being
heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now
thinking I will tape the chines as well.
Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the bottom?
Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?
Cheers,
Don
heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now
thinking I will tape the chines as well.
Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the bottom?
Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?
Cheers,
Don
On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
models of this exaggerated long dory and a 'per plans' Gloucester
Gull. Comparing the two: Most notable I see that mine has more
curvy-ness, in the bottom (as the GGull has nearly a flat bottom), and
also in the sheerline. Speed isn't everything, (considering that
boats are also 'sculptures' of a sort.) Big long swoopy sheerlines
are pretty.
What I am thinking of is a 'pretty' boat to launch through the surf
near my home, and the higher ends from that exaggerated curvature, I
think, might be an improvement. Plus, it needs to be light weight
enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.
> I'll wager that the original will be slightlyOff line, here in physically in my hands, I have made some paper scale
> faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
> length, but I like the looks of your version, too.
models of this exaggerated long dory and a 'per plans' Gloucester
Gull. Comparing the two: Most notable I see that mine has more
curvy-ness, in the bottom (as the GGull has nearly a flat bottom), and
also in the sheerline. Speed isn't everything, (considering that
boats are also 'sculptures' of a sort.) Big long swoopy sheerlines
are pretty.
What I am thinking of is a 'pretty' boat to launch through the surf
near my home, and the higher ends from that exaggerated curvature, I
think, might be an improvement. Plus, it needs to be light weight
enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.
Hi Bruce,
faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
length, but I like the looks of your version, too.
The bottom can be had from one sheet of 1/2" ply by laying out half of
the bottom from each end of the sheet, offsetting the centerline of
each piece by about 2'. Payson shows one way to do this in his book,
offsetting the two halves diagonally, but it's easier to use the
factory edges for the butt joint.
If you make the seat bearers removable, or eliminate them altogether
and sit on a box, and use lightweight wood for the gunwales, I don't
doubt you can keep the weight under 100 lbs. I should probably weigh
mine sometime, but it's certainly no trouble to row solo, as I have
put up to ten non-stop miles under her a few times.
It's good to see this design getting some interest thanks to Payson's
book. I'll just add that if you make the gunwales two courses of 3/4"
x 1-1/2" material as called for in the plans (perhaps without the
fancy shaping and bronze half oval called for), the hull is so stiff
that you can make the seat bearers removable, which has some
advantages. For example, I was able to make a second set that only
use the forward half of the hull, leaving the after half of the
boat "open" for my dog to spread out. Payson shows the seat bearers
as permanent structure and used only one strip of material for the
gunwales. He also put the oarlocks on the inside of the hull, which
will almost surely result in cross-handed rowing with 7' oars from all
seating positions.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> And 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is thewhere
> exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
> That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf
> I live.Nicely done as usual. I'll wager that the original will be slightly
>
>http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o
>
> This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
> Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
> sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
> cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
> bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.
faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
length, but I like the looks of your version, too.
The bottom can be had from one sheet of 1/2" ply by laying out half of
the bottom from each end of the sheet, offsetting the centerline of
each piece by about 2'. Payson shows one way to do this in his book,
offsetting the two halves diagonally, but it's easier to use the
factory edges for the butt joint.
If you make the seat bearers removable, or eliminate them altogether
and sit on a box, and use lightweight wood for the gunwales, I don't
doubt you can keep the weight under 100 lbs. I should probably weigh
mine sometime, but it's certainly no trouble to row solo, as I have
put up to ten non-stop miles under her a few times.
It's good to see this design getting some interest thanks to Payson's
book. I'll just add that if you make the gunwales two courses of 3/4"
x 1-1/2" material as called for in the plans (perhaps without the
fancy shaping and bronze half oval called for), the hull is so stiff
that you can make the seat bearers removable, which has some
advantages. For example, I was able to make a second set that only
use the forward half of the hull, leaving the after half of the
boat "open" for my dog to spread out. Payson shows the seat bearers
as permanent structure and used only one strip of material for the
gunwales. He also put the oarlocks on the inside of the hull, which
will almost surely result in cross-handed rowing with 7' oars from all
seating positions.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf where
I live.
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o
This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.
> Ultimately, ...unless you justAnd 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is the
> like how it looks - which is of
> course a perfectly justifiable
> reason to do it!
exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf where
I live.
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o
This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.
Hi Don,
points. I would add that you might have to scarf the chine logs on
the boat in order to get a good fit at the stem and tombstone.
However, it might be possible to fit the chine logs to the side
panels, stem, and tombstone prior to springing the sides around the
frames, as long as you cut the stem and tombstone side bevels
accurately first. The bottom (and top) bevel on the chine logs
should be constant, or close enough not to matter.
If I were doing it again, I don't think I'd use a chine log on this
design. The side flare is considerable, which means fasteners on
the bottom have to go into the log at a steep angle, too, requiring
more countersink depth if you leave them in, or more goop to fill if
you take them out. Are you going to tape the frames in or frame
them with lumber also? If the latter, you're starting to add some
real weight with both the logs and the frames, and I think that will
hurt the boat's performance to some degree, especially if rowing
solo. I'd keep it as light as possible - as drawn.
Ultimately, I don't see any advantage to chine logs unless you just
like how it looks - which is of course a perfectly justifiable
reason to do it!
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. Iam
> planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson'sand-
> latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
> answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-
> tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood.Is
> there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring theand
> logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
> there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage
> maintenance?You've read all the other posts by now and they all make good
> Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
points. I would add that you might have to scarf the chine logs on
the boat in order to get a good fit at the stem and tombstone.
However, it might be possible to fit the chine logs to the side
panels, stem, and tombstone prior to springing the sides around the
frames, as long as you cut the stem and tombstone side bevels
accurately first. The bottom (and top) bevel on the chine logs
should be constant, or close enough not to matter.
If I were doing it again, I don't think I'd use a chine log on this
design. The side flare is considerable, which means fasteners on
the bottom have to go into the log at a steep angle, too, requiring
more countersink depth if you leave them in, or more goop to fill if
you take them out. Are you going to tape the frames in or frame
them with lumber also? If the latter, you're starting to add some
real weight with both the logs and the frames, and I think that will
hurt the boat's performance to some degree, especially if rowing
solo. I'd keep it as light as possible - as drawn.
Ultimately, I don't see any advantage to chine logs unless you just
like how it looks - which is of course a perfectly justifiable
reason to do it!
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
The chine logs should not cause any longevity problems. Just turn the
boat over when you are done rowing and any water that may have
collected will run out, plus it will not collect rainwater. If the
boat is going to live outside, the proper way to store it is upside
down, just like a canoe.
boat over when you are done rowing and any water that may have
collected will run out, plus it will not collect rainwater. If the
boat is going to live outside, the proper way to store it is upside
down, just like a canoe.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Don - I have experience with a chine log version of the Long Light
> Dory. RiversWest, a local small boat group, taught a class in
> boatbuilding recently to a group of "at risk" youth. I was one of
the
> instructors. The lead instructor was Dan Pence, who's built several
> Bolger boats (and who recently won the Shipyard Raid in a
> skin-on-frame boat of his own design, Conjure. Take a bow Dan!). He
> decided - because of increased speed and less mess - to do chine
logs.
>
> It's too soon to talk about longevity, but the building part
presented
> no problems. I've built both stitch&goo boats, and screw & glue
(chine
> log) boats. I've also used lots of epoxy in my architectural
millwork
> business. It's marvelous stuff, but the more I do, the less I enjoy
> suiting up for epoxy work, and the messiness of the cleanup -
> especially if I have inexperienced helpers.
>
> Bottom line: I'd see no problem - given the comments above about
> collecting water - with going with a chine log (what I call screw &
glue).
>
> Cheers,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
> "Good judgment comes from experience. The most useful experience
comes
> from bad judgment"
>
> ***********
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <don.froese@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post.
I am
> > planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
> > latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
> > answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of
stitch-and-
> > tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with
wood. Is
> > there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring
the
> > logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames.
Would
> > there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage
and
> > maintenance?
> > Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
> >
> > Thanks, Don
>
Thanks for the informative replies everyone.
David: Did you spring in the chine logs after the sides were attached
to the frames and stem/stern, or did you set up forms to hold the
chine in place before bending on the side panels? Seems the former
would work and should be faster and easier. This is what I would like
to do on my boat.
David: Did you spring in the chine logs after the sides were attached
to the frames and stem/stern, or did you set up forms to hold the
chine in place before bending on the side panels? Seems the former
would work and should be faster and easier. This is what I would like
to do on my boat.
> >
> > Thanks, Don
>
Don - I have experience with a chine log version of the Long Light
Dory. RiversWest, a local small boat group, taught a class in
boatbuilding recently to a group of "at risk" youth. I was one of the
instructors. The lead instructor was Dan Pence, who's built several
Bolger boats (and who recently won the Shipyard Raid in a
skin-on-frame boat of his own design, Conjure. Take a bow Dan!). He
decided - because of increased speed and less mess - to do chine logs.
It's too soon to talk about longevity, but the building part presented
no problems. I've built both stitch&goo boats, and screw & glue (chine
log) boats. I've also used lots of epoxy in my architectural millwork
business. It's marvelous stuff, but the more I do, the less I enjoy
suiting up for epoxy work, and the messiness of the cleanup -
especially if I have inexperienced helpers.
Bottom line: I'd see no problem - given the comments above about
collecting water - with going with a chine log (what I call screw & glue).
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Good judgment comes from experience. The most useful experience comes
from bad judgment"
***********
Dory. RiversWest, a local small boat group, taught a class in
boatbuilding recently to a group of "at risk" youth. I was one of the
instructors. The lead instructor was Dan Pence, who's built several
Bolger boats (and who recently won the Shipyard Raid in a
skin-on-frame boat of his own design, Conjure. Take a bow Dan!). He
decided - because of increased speed and less mess - to do chine logs.
It's too soon to talk about longevity, but the building part presented
no problems. I've built both stitch&goo boats, and screw & glue (chine
log) boats. I've also used lots of epoxy in my architectural millwork
business. It's marvelous stuff, but the more I do, the less I enjoy
suiting up for epoxy work, and the messiness of the cleanup -
especially if I have inexperienced helpers.
Bottom line: I'd see no problem - given the comments above about
collecting water - with going with a chine log (what I call screw & glue).
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Good judgment comes from experience. The most useful experience comes
from bad judgment"
***********
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <don.froese@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I am
> planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
> latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
> answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-and-
> tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood. Is
> there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
> logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
> there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage and
> maintenance?
> Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
>
> Thanks, Don
I'm sure that you will get an array of answers. Here's mine.
The Long Dory is a development of the Glouster Gull or Light Dory. The original Light Dory was what I call framed plywood. In this instance, the Light Dory had a center frame and used a wood chine and gunwales. When Payson published expanded dimensions for the Light Dory planks, a number of people converted the design to stitch and glue. PCB's mastery of the "Instant Boat"/stitch and glue boat allowed him to develop Long Dory plans in stitch and glue.
In stitch and glue construction, planks are cut to a pre determined (more or less depending on the builder), laced together using temporary frames/molds, and the joints are bonded with a fillet and fiberglass tape. (Epoxy is the standard now, but many boats have been successfully built using less expensive polyester resin.) The curves on the edges of the panels spring the panels into the boat's shape.
The advantages of stitch and glue are 1) there is no need for lofting (though laying out the planks is a lot like lofting), 2) no building frame is required, 3) there is no complex beveling, 4) due to the gap filling capabilites of resin and thickener, precise fits are not needed and 5) the fiberglass chine produces a cleaner interior.
If you are going for framed plywood on a Long Dory, I would suggest that you get a copy of H H Payson's book 'How to Build a Light Dory' and study it. (Books and plans are cheaper then building the boat.) You will have to set up a ladder frame with molds and you will have to bevel the bottom of the chine by hand. It is possible that the angle between the bottom and the sides is constant (in which case you can cut the bevel with a table saw), but I doubt it. I would also cut the panels a little over size and plane to precise shape after the panels were on the boat.
In regard to rot, a boat with flared sides and in internal chine will have a water trap between the side plank and the top of the chine. A solution is to cut a bevel on the top of the chine so it won't trap water. Since you are usually not trying to attach anything to the top of the chine, the bevel can be cut on a table saw.
So long as you don't fiddle too much with the shape and scantlings of the boat, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to build a boat. Plywood will wick water into the end grain and this will cause rot and/or delamination. Therefore, I go to great lengths to seal the end grain with epoxy and, where appropriate, tape. If this offends your woodworker's preference, think of it as part of the finishing process!
Hope this helps. Have fun.
JohnT
The Long Dory is a development of the Glouster Gull or Light Dory. The original Light Dory was what I call framed plywood. In this instance, the Light Dory had a center frame and used a wood chine and gunwales. When Payson published expanded dimensions for the Light Dory planks, a number of people converted the design to stitch and glue. PCB's mastery of the "Instant Boat"/stitch and glue boat allowed him to develop Long Dory plans in stitch and glue.
In stitch and glue construction, planks are cut to a pre determined (more or less depending on the builder), laced together using temporary frames/molds, and the joints are bonded with a fillet and fiberglass tape. (Epoxy is the standard now, but many boats have been successfully built using less expensive polyester resin.) The curves on the edges of the panels spring the panels into the boat's shape.
The advantages of stitch and glue are 1) there is no need for lofting (though laying out the planks is a lot like lofting), 2) no building frame is required, 3) there is no complex beveling, 4) due to the gap filling capabilites of resin and thickener, precise fits are not needed and 5) the fiberglass chine produces a cleaner interior.
If you are going for framed plywood on a Long Dory, I would suggest that you get a copy of H H Payson's book 'How to Build a Light Dory' and study it. (Books and plans are cheaper then building the boat.) You will have to set up a ladder frame with molds and you will have to bevel the bottom of the chine by hand. It is possible that the angle between the bottom and the sides is constant (in which case you can cut the bevel with a table saw), but I doubt it. I would also cut the panels a little over size and plane to precise shape after the panels were on the boat.
In regard to rot, a boat with flared sides and in internal chine will have a water trap between the side plank and the top of the chine. A solution is to cut a bevel on the top of the chine so it won't trap water. Since you are usually not trying to attach anything to the top of the chine, the bevel can be cut on a table saw.
So long as you don't fiddle too much with the shape and scantlings of the boat, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to build a boat. Plywood will wick water into the end grain and this will cause rot and/or delamination. Therefore, I go to great lengths to seal the end grain with epoxy and, where appropriate, tape. If this offends your woodworker's preference, think of it as part of the finishing process!
Hope this helps. Have fun.
JohnT
----- Original Message -----
From: Don
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:02 PM
Subject: [bolger] Building a Long Dory
Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I am
planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-and-
tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood. Is
there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage and
maintenance?
Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
Thanks, Don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release Date: 9/29/2007 9:46 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 10/1/07, Don <don.froese@...> wrote:
'regret' is when I try to 'improve' the plans. More often than not,
my 'improvement' actually turns out to be not an improvement plus
costly and time consuming.
This is especially true with the Bolger designs which have been vetted
and checked for buildability by Dynamite Payson. The Payson/Bolger
collaborations were all verified in detail as 'easy build' boats.
With the Long Dory, I recommend building one first, exactly per plan.
If you then see things that can be improved, build a second boat.
(And, actually, I recommend building a quick paper scale model before
proceeding full size in wood.)
And, I suspect you have already seen John Kolb's website about his Long Dory
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/long_dory_1.htm
P.S.S., does anyone have a scan of that design? If I could see it I
would create a Freeship isometric model of the hull shape.
>I have built more that a dozen Bolger boats, and my single most common
>
> Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
'regret' is when I try to 'improve' the plans. More often than not,
my 'improvement' actually turns out to be not an improvement plus
costly and time consuming.
This is especially true with the Bolger designs which have been vetted
and checked for buildability by Dynamite Payson. The Payson/Bolger
collaborations were all verified in detail as 'easy build' boats.
With the Long Dory, I recommend building one first, exactly per plan.
If you then see things that can be improved, build a second boat.
(And, actually, I recommend building a quick paper scale model before
proceeding full size in wood.)
And, I suspect you have already seen John Kolb's website about his Long Dory
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/long_dory_1.htm
P.S.S., does anyone have a scan of that design? If I could see it I
would create a Freeship isometric model of the hull shape.
Hi Don --
Welcome to the group! Care to comment on water ballast? (Just kidding.)
I've heard that interior chine logs can trap dirt and moisture in the
sharp angles -- between the bottom and the chine long, and between the
chine log and the side -- which might hasten rot. So even though
you're not building S&G, you might want to run a thin fillet of
thickened epoxy down those joints, to seal them, and shed the water
and dirt.
Garth
(who has never built an interior chine log boat, and whose advice
should be taken as speculative hearsay)
Welcome to the group! Care to comment on water ballast? (Just kidding.)
I've heard that interior chine logs can trap dirt and moisture in the
sharp angles -- between the bottom and the chine long, and between the
chine log and the side -- which might hasten rot. So even though
you're not building S&G, you might want to run a thin fillet of
thickened epoxy down those joints, to seal them, and shed the water
and dirt.
Garth
(who has never built an interior chine log boat, and whose advice
should be taken as speculative hearsay)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <don.froese@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I am
> planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
> latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
> answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-and-
> tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood. Is
> there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
> logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
> there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage and
> maintenance?
> Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
>
> Thanks, Don
>
Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I am
planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-and-
tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood. Is
there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage and
maintenance?
Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
Thanks, Don
planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-and-
tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood. Is
there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage and
maintenance?
Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
Thanks, Don