Re: Long Dory
Thanks John,
Ultimately I would like to rebuild her. Finances simply won't permit
right now. For the time being, I have been beefing her up
structurally. As for your idea about decking, I think that is
excellent. For starters, I am installing turtle decks for and aft,
which extend to stations 1 and 3, respectively. Later, I plan to
install side decks, plus a 4 in. or so coaming. It's good to know
that this boat is recommended for rough water. That is what I am
counting on. Fortunately, the Coast Guard station is right at the
entrance to the Golden Gate, so only a few minutes away by radio. The
proof is in the puddin', so we'll see how the boat--and myself--fare
in the next few weeks.
Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
Ultimately I would like to rebuild her. Finances simply won't permit
right now. For the time being, I have been beefing her up
structurally. As for your idea about decking, I think that is
excellent. For starters, I am installing turtle decks for and aft,
which extend to stations 1 and 3, respectively. Later, I plan to
install side decks, plus a 4 in. or so coaming. It's good to know
that this boat is recommended for rough water. That is what I am
counting on. Fortunately, the Coast Guard station is right at the
entrance to the Golden Gate, so only a few minutes away by radio. The
proof is in the puddin', so we'll see how the boat--and myself--fare
in the next few weeks.
Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> > That is a capital idea, to get a set of plans and engineering
> > drawings. Cost is an issue. Fortunately, someone had posted a link
> > to a website which chronicled the building of a long dory, with
> > excellent pics of every step.
> ...snip...
>
> I missed most of this thread while off on another futile attempt to
> fill my freezer with elk. While the freezer is still empty, nothing
> quite clears your mind of distractions like bushwacking through dark
> timber from 9900' to 11,200' four moonless mornings in a row.
>
> I suspect the website to which you refer might be mine.
>
> The boat is indeed a simple design, and I can't imagine why anybody
> would modify it the way yours has been, but hey, it's a free country.
> If it were me, I'd eliminate the worries about how sound the
> construction is by salvaging any hardware or material and then building
> a new hull. The plans in reduced size are in Payson's latest book,
> which I believe retails for less than the full size plans (about $20
> vs. about $30, if I recall).
>
> The more weight in my boat, the less tender it is, so ballast like
> you're considering is probably going to help. The bottom of mine is
> 1/2" ACX "SuperPly", and can easily stand up to some heavy objects
> (including me). I've thrown a couple of 25 pound barbell plates in the
> bottom of mine to trim the boat with the odd combination of me and my
> dog with no trouble. I haven't used the ballast when rowing alone, but
> I might start doing that since the boat is so light and tippy with only
> me aboard.
>
> If I were to try really rough water, I'd be tempted to deck the boat in
> at the level of the designed frame tops, leaving a 2' wide footwell
> between frames 1 and 3, and making the under-deck volumes all
> watertight compartments - hopefully with enough bouyancy to counter the
> weight of any ballast. This might allow the boat to be bailed out if
> you had to reenter it from the water, but I'd try this in some warm
> shallow water first. As designed, you might be able to reenter and
> bail it out as long as your ballast fell out when you went overboard.
> Bolger's Crystal and Sweet Pea designs (latter also in Payson's latest
> book) have the decking I'm talking about. Reentry in any configuration
> may be difficult due to the shape of the hull - I haven't tried it
> myself.
>
> PCB recommended this boat to us when we asked for a rough water
> rowboat, and it's worth noting that the design is regularly raced in
> the Blackburn Challenge, so it's apparently considered a capable rough
> water boat by people who should know.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
Hi Dave,
I missed most of this thread while off on another futile attempt to
fill my freezer with elk. While the freezer is still empty, nothing
quite clears your mind of distractions like bushwacking through dark
timber from 9900' to 11,200' four moonless mornings in a row.
I suspect the website to which you refer might be mine.
The boat is indeed a simple design, and I can't imagine why anybody
would modify it the way yours has been, but hey, it's a free country.
If it were me, I'd eliminate the worries about how sound the
construction is by salvaging any hardware or material and then building
a new hull. The plans in reduced size are in Payson's latest book,
which I believe retails for less than the full size plans (about $20
vs. about $30, if I recall).
The more weight in my boat, the less tender it is, so ballast like
you're considering is probably going to help. The bottom of mine is
1/2" ACX "SuperPly", and can easily stand up to some heavy objects
(including me). I've thrown a couple of 25 pound barbell plates in the
bottom of mine to trim the boat with the odd combination of me and my
dog with no trouble. I haven't used the ballast when rowing alone, but
I might start doing that since the boat is so light and tippy with only
me aboard.
If I were to try really rough water, I'd be tempted to deck the boat in
at the level of the designed frame tops, leaving a 2' wide footwell
between frames 1 and 3, and making the under-deck volumes all
watertight compartments - hopefully with enough bouyancy to counter the
weight of any ballast. This might allow the boat to be bailed out if
you had to reenter it from the water, but I'd try this in some warm
shallow water first. As designed, you might be able to reenter and
bail it out as long as your ballast fell out when you went overboard.
Bolger's Crystal and Sweet Pea designs (latter also in Payson's latest
book) have the decking I'm talking about. Reentry in any configuration
may be difficult due to the shape of the hull - I haven't tried it
myself.
PCB recommended this boat to us when we asked for a rough water
rowboat, and it's worth noting that the design is regularly raced in
the Blackburn Challenge, so it's apparently considered a capable rough
water boat by people who should know.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> That is a capital idea, to get a set of plans and engineering...snip...
> drawings. Cost is an issue. Fortunately, someone had posted a link
> to a website which chronicled the building of a long dory, with
> excellent pics of every step.
I missed most of this thread while off on another futile attempt to
fill my freezer with elk. While the freezer is still empty, nothing
quite clears your mind of distractions like bushwacking through dark
timber from 9900' to 11,200' four moonless mornings in a row.
I suspect the website to which you refer might be mine.
The boat is indeed a simple design, and I can't imagine why anybody
would modify it the way yours has been, but hey, it's a free country.
If it were me, I'd eliminate the worries about how sound the
construction is by salvaging any hardware or material and then building
a new hull. The plans in reduced size are in Payson's latest book,
which I believe retails for less than the full size plans (about $20
vs. about $30, if I recall).
The more weight in my boat, the less tender it is, so ballast like
you're considering is probably going to help. The bottom of mine is
1/2" ACX "SuperPly", and can easily stand up to some heavy objects
(including me). I've thrown a couple of 25 pound barbell plates in the
bottom of mine to trim the boat with the odd combination of me and my
dog with no trouble. I haven't used the ballast when rowing alone, but
I might start doing that since the boat is so light and tippy with only
me aboard.
If I were to try really rough water, I'd be tempted to deck the boat in
at the level of the designed frame tops, leaving a 2' wide footwell
between frames 1 and 3, and making the under-deck volumes all
watertight compartments - hopefully with enough bouyancy to counter the
weight of any ballast. This might allow the boat to be bailed out if
you had to reenter it from the water, but I'd try this in some warm
shallow water first. As designed, you might be able to reenter and
bail it out as long as your ballast fell out when you went overboard.
Bolger's Crystal and Sweet Pea designs (latter also in Payson's latest
book) have the decking I'm talking about. Reentry in any configuration
may be difficult due to the shape of the hull - I haven't tried it
myself.
PCB recommended this boat to us when we asked for a rough water
rowboat, and it's worth noting that the design is regularly raced in
the Blackburn Challenge, so it's apparently considered a capable rough
water boat by people who should know.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Bolger is not in favor of sailing dories at all. Strongly expressed in
several of his books.
HJ
Andres Espino wrote:
several of his books.
HJ
Andres Espino wrote:
> AHHHHHHH It's a rowboat! Thanks! I wasnt sure whether it was actually a 19 foot sailing dory you were discussing. Dories can be ballasted and sailed too.. we had many off the coast of Maine.
>
> I am new to stitch & glue and other "instant boat building" techniques, but it is my thought that the ribs and keel of a regular design might be needed when one starts thinking about adding serious ballast. As I remember our sailing dories used to have about 400 to 600 pounds of ballast in the keel. Some Dories were fitted with centerboards too for sailing.
>
> I am presently sailing a 26 foot Gaff rigged Sharpie which is a modified dory hull.. flat on the bottom with a swing keel. It draws only 11 inches with the centerboard up, but handles heavy seas quite well with the board down.
>
> So a Dory hull will definately handle the conditions you are discussing, but whether one can add heavy ballast to Bolger's instant build design without a rigid keel and ribs to upport the poundage.. I would not know. Maybe someone could email Bolgers site and ask someone?
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew
>
>
Hi David,
That is a capital idea, to get a set of plans and engineering
drawings. Cost is an issue. Fortunately, someone had posted a link
to a website which chronicled the building of a long dory, with
excellent pics of every step. Mine seems to differ in that there
appears to be mahogany chine logs, although I believe they are
glassed in rather than screwed. I did note the three frames, which
mine does not have. And that is what particularly concerns me. If
the bottom is 3/8 ply, that is quite a long unsupported stretch of
plywood, even with glass on the outside. Seems to me there should be
some floors added, but I don't know for sure if they are needed. I
tend to belong to the old school, and over-build when it comes to sea
boats. Maybe that isn't needed here. I do know that the mods that
were done sometime in the past do not follow the design, since they
removed the frames. I just wonder if the bottom can stand up to a
steep, pounding chop (typically four-foot curling crests around the
Gate) without those designed frames.
Dave
That is a capital idea, to get a set of plans and engineering
drawings. Cost is an issue. Fortunately, someone had posted a link
to a website which chronicled the building of a long dory, with
excellent pics of every step. Mine seems to differ in that there
appears to be mahogany chine logs, although I believe they are
glassed in rather than screwed. I did note the three frames, which
mine does not have. And that is what particularly concerns me. If
the bottom is 3/8 ply, that is quite a long unsupported stretch of
plywood, even with glass on the outside. Seems to me there should be
some floors added, but I don't know for sure if they are needed. I
tend to belong to the old school, and over-build when it comes to sea
boats. Maybe that isn't needed here. I do know that the mods that
were done sometime in the past do not follow the design, since they
removed the frames. I just wonder if the bottom can stand up to a
steep, pounding chop (typically four-foot curling crests around the
Gate) without those designed frames.
Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I think I'd be inclined to buy a set of plans, so you can see how
it's
> supposed to be set up. then do it that way. This boat is quite
simple,
> because it is carefully engineered. I wouldn't want to make a bunch
of
> blind mods, and take it into challenging conditions. If money is an
> issue, perhaps Mr. Bolger might be willing to discount a planset to
> enable you to rescue an existing boat... it might be worth
inquiring.
>
> Eeeek,
> David Graybeal
>
> "It is always easier to fight for one's principles than to live up
to
> them" -- Alfred Adler
>
> ************
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "archierieus" <archierieus@> wrote:
> >
> > I wish to thank all for the helpful information. My concerns
have
> > been substantially addressed. It sounds like ballast is the way
to
> > go. That does raise some structural issues. When I acquired the
> > boat, she was only a plywood shell. The frames had been
removed.
> > Three unattached aluminum half-frames, that did not extend to the
> > bottom of the boat, came with it. I attached those, but there
was no
> > support for the bottom, which seemed a real concern. Three 1/4-
20
> > stainless bolts were sticking up through the bottom of the boat
at
> > the midship frame station, so I fashioned a frame out of 2 x 2
> > redwood, drilled it and secured the bolts, and then attached it
to a
> > piece of 3/8 ply, which I bolted to the midship frame, thus
giving at
> > least some support to the bottom. Still, forward and aft the
bottom
> > is unsupported. I am concerned about that. Should I be?
> >
> > At any rate, there were no seats in the boat, so I put a 2 x 8 by
12
> > ft. redwood plank fore and aft for seating. For ballast, I
drilled
> > it for two 1/2 x 5 in. stainless bolts, and below the plank I put
> > cast iron weights on each bolt, 20 lbs. on each, thus providing
total
> > ballast, including the plank, of around 80 lbs. I didn't want to
add
> > stress to the unsupported bottom, so secured the ballast in that
> > way. From reading the posts here, it sounds like I need more
> > ballast, so will lash in four 5-gallon water bottles, which
should up
> > the total ballast to close to 300 lbs, I think. With my weight
plus
> > gear, the total load should exceed 550 lbs.
> >
> > I am more at ease about taking her out by the Gate after reading
the
> > posts. Currents are an issue, but I tend to go with the tides.
As
> > for conditions here compared to Gloucester, I used to take a 16
ft.
> > rowboat off Cape Ann frequently, and had no problem rowing
against
> > the tide race, even going under the bridge at Gloucester. But
the
> > Golden Gate is a horse of another color. This boat was in poor
> > condition when I acquired it. Someone had modified it, but
didn't do
> > it right IMO. I reinforced the chines with 6 in. fiberglass
tape, a
> > mat/heavy cloth composite. Hope it holds up under heavy use, and
> > doesn't come apart underneath the Golden Gate bridge. I don't
want
> > to be a statistic!
> >
> > Dave
>
Dave,
I think I'd be inclined to buy a set of plans, so you can see how it's
supposed to be set up. then do it that way. This boat is quite simple,
because it is carefully engineered. I wouldn't want to make a bunch of
blind mods, and take it into challenging conditions. If money is an
issue, perhaps Mr. Bolger might be willing to discount a planset to
enable you to rescue an existing boat... it might be worth inquiring.
Eeeek,
David Graybeal
"It is always easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to
them" -- Alfred Adler
************
I think I'd be inclined to buy a set of plans, so you can see how it's
supposed to be set up. then do it that way. This boat is quite simple,
because it is carefully engineered. I wouldn't want to make a bunch of
blind mods, and take it into challenging conditions. If money is an
issue, perhaps Mr. Bolger might be willing to discount a planset to
enable you to rescue an existing boat... it might be worth inquiring.
Eeeek,
David Graybeal
"It is always easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to
them" -- Alfred Adler
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "archierieus" <archierieus@...> wrote:
>
> I wish to thank all for the helpful information. My concerns have
> been substantially addressed. It sounds like ballast is the way to
> go. That does raise some structural issues. When I acquired the
> boat, she was only a plywood shell. The frames had been removed.
> Three unattached aluminum half-frames, that did not extend to the
> bottom of the boat, came with it. I attached those, but there was no
> support for the bottom, which seemed a real concern. Three 1/4-20
> stainless bolts were sticking up through the bottom of the boat at
> the midship frame station, so I fashioned a frame out of 2 x 2
> redwood, drilled it and secured the bolts, and then attached it to a
> piece of 3/8 ply, which I bolted to the midship frame, thus giving at
> least some support to the bottom. Still, forward and aft the bottom
> is unsupported. I am concerned about that. Should I be?
>
> At any rate, there were no seats in the boat, so I put a 2 x 8 by 12
> ft. redwood plank fore and aft for seating. For ballast, I drilled
> it for two 1/2 x 5 in. stainless bolts, and below the plank I put
> cast iron weights on each bolt, 20 lbs. on each, thus providing total
> ballast, including the plank, of around 80 lbs. I didn't want to add
> stress to the unsupported bottom, so secured the ballast in that
> way. From reading the posts here, it sounds like I need more
> ballast, so will lash in four 5-gallon water bottles, which should up
> the total ballast to close to 300 lbs, I think. With my weight plus
> gear, the total load should exceed 550 lbs.
>
> I am more at ease about taking her out by the Gate after reading the
> posts. Currents are an issue, but I tend to go with the tides. As
> for conditions here compared to Gloucester, I used to take a 16 ft.
> rowboat off Cape Ann frequently, and had no problem rowing against
> the tide race, even going under the bridge at Gloucester. But the
> Golden Gate is a horse of another color. This boat was in poor
> condition when I acquired it. Someone had modified it, but didn't do
> it right IMO. I reinforced the chines with 6 in. fiberglass tape, a
> mat/heavy cloth composite. Hope it holds up under heavy use, and
> doesn't come apart underneath the Golden Gate bridge. I don't want
> to be a statistic!
>
> Dave
I wish to thank all for the helpful information. My concerns have
been substantially addressed. It sounds like ballast is the way to
go. That does raise some structural issues. When I acquired the
boat, she was only a plywood shell. The frames had been removed.
Three unattached aluminum half-frames, that did not extend to the
bottom of the boat, came with it. I attached those, but there was no
support for the bottom, which seemed a real concern. Three 1/4-20
stainless bolts were sticking up through the bottom of the boat at
the midship frame station, so I fashioned a frame out of 2 x 2
redwood, drilled it and secured the bolts, and then attached it to a
piece of 3/8 ply, which I bolted to the midship frame, thus giving at
least some support to the bottom. Still, forward and aft the bottom
is unsupported. I am concerned about that. Should I be?
At any rate, there were no seats in the boat, so I put a 2 x 8 by 12
ft. redwood plank fore and aft for seating. For ballast, I drilled
it for two 1/2 x 5 in. stainless bolts, and below the plank I put
cast iron weights on each bolt, 20 lbs. on each, thus providing total
ballast, including the plank, of around 80 lbs. I didn't want to add
stress to the unsupported bottom, so secured the ballast in that
way. From reading the posts here, it sounds like I need more
ballast, so will lash in four 5-gallon water bottles, which should up
the total ballast to close to 300 lbs, I think. With my weight plus
gear, the total load should exceed 550 lbs.
I am more at ease about taking her out by the Gate after reading the
posts. Currents are an issue, but I tend to go with the tides. As
for conditions here compared to Gloucester, I used to take a 16 ft.
rowboat off Cape Ann frequently, and had no problem rowing against
the tide race, even going under the bridge at Gloucester. But the
Golden Gate is a horse of another color. This boat was in poor
condition when I acquired it. Someone had modified it, but didn't do
it right IMO. I reinforced the chines with 6 in. fiberglass tape, a
mat/heavy cloth composite. Hope it holds up under heavy use, and
doesn't come apart underneath the Golden Gate bridge. I don't want
to be a statistic!
Dave
been substantially addressed. It sounds like ballast is the way to
go. That does raise some structural issues. When I acquired the
boat, she was only a plywood shell. The frames had been removed.
Three unattached aluminum half-frames, that did not extend to the
bottom of the boat, came with it. I attached those, but there was no
support for the bottom, which seemed a real concern. Three 1/4-20
stainless bolts were sticking up through the bottom of the boat at
the midship frame station, so I fashioned a frame out of 2 x 2
redwood, drilled it and secured the bolts, and then attached it to a
piece of 3/8 ply, which I bolted to the midship frame, thus giving at
least some support to the bottom. Still, forward and aft the bottom
is unsupported. I am concerned about that. Should I be?
At any rate, there were no seats in the boat, so I put a 2 x 8 by 12
ft. redwood plank fore and aft for seating. For ballast, I drilled
it for two 1/2 x 5 in. stainless bolts, and below the plank I put
cast iron weights on each bolt, 20 lbs. on each, thus providing total
ballast, including the plank, of around 80 lbs. I didn't want to add
stress to the unsupported bottom, so secured the ballast in that
way. From reading the posts here, it sounds like I need more
ballast, so will lash in four 5-gallon water bottles, which should up
the total ballast to close to 300 lbs, I think. With my weight plus
gear, the total load should exceed 550 lbs.
I am more at ease about taking her out by the Gate after reading the
posts. Currents are an issue, but I tend to go with the tides. As
for conditions here compared to Gloucester, I used to take a 16 ft.
rowboat off Cape Ann frequently, and had no problem rowing against
the tide race, even going under the bridge at Gloucester. But the
Golden Gate is a horse of another color. This boat was in poor
condition when I acquired it. Someone had modified it, but didn't do
it right IMO. I reinforced the chines with 6 in. fiberglass tape, a
mat/heavy cloth composite. Hope it holds up under heavy use, and
doesn't come apart underneath the Golden Gate bridge. I don't want
to be a statistic!
Dave
Payson does have the long light dory plans listed on his site. Look
under the ordering tab, link to instant boat plans, then find #27.
http://www.instantboats.com/pricetxt.html
Further down this page are the non-instant boats, including the famous
Gloucester Gull.
Doug
under the ordering tab, link to instant boat plans, then find #27.
http://www.instantboats.com/pricetxt.html
Further down this page are the non-instant boats, including the famous
Gloucester Gull.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am pretty sure that Harold Payson sells plans but I couldn't find
them
> on his web page
>
>http://www.instantboats.com/
>
> HJ
>
The original "Light Dory was, at 15 1/2 ft, intended for a solo rower, perhaps with a passenger. The Long Dory is intended for a crew of two or three.
Dories have a great deal of flare in the sides. When empty, the waterline beam is little wider than the bottom plank. As dories are loaded, they sink into the water and waterline beam (and initial stability) increases dramatically. (and this applies whether the load is live, sand bags, lead, or water ballast!) I suspect that it takes between 400 and 500 lbs of load to get Long Dory down onto her designed lines.
Dories are very seaworthy in that they have tremendous reserve stability. PCB writes about falling out of a Light Dory and having the empty boat snap back with little water aboard.
I would be hesitant to take any rowboat into the very strong currents in San Francisco bay until I knew how fast I could row it in a variety of conditions. Rowing in cross winds requires some extra effort to keep the boat straight and this slows boat speed. I would be less concerned with waves and more concerned with whether I could row fast enough to overcome current.
I don't think decking will make the boat more seaworthy, but decks with watertight bulkheads will make capsize recovery a more reasonable possibility. A low boat like the Herresgoff Rowboat benefits from a deck. High ended boats like Dories or Ian Oughtred's Elf don't seem to need decks.
JohnT
Dories have a great deal of flare in the sides. When empty, the waterline beam is little wider than the bottom plank. As dories are loaded, they sink into the water and waterline beam (and initial stability) increases dramatically. (and this applies whether the load is live, sand bags, lead, or water ballast!) I suspect that it takes between 400 and 500 lbs of load to get Long Dory down onto her designed lines.
Dories are very seaworthy in that they have tremendous reserve stability. PCB writes about falling out of a Light Dory and having the empty boat snap back with little water aboard.
I would be hesitant to take any rowboat into the very strong currents in San Francisco bay until I knew how fast I could row it in a variety of conditions. Rowing in cross winds requires some extra effort to keep the boat straight and this slows boat speed. I would be less concerned with waves and more concerned with whether I could row fast enough to overcome current.
I don't think decking will make the boat more seaworthy, but decks with watertight bulkheads will make capsize recovery a more reasonable possibility. A low boat like the Herresgoff Rowboat benefits from a deck. High ended boats like Dories or Ian Oughtred's Elf don't seem to need decks.
JohnT
----- Original Message -----
From: David
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Long Dory
Bruce,
I agree that second-guessing the designer is usually futile, or more
likely counterproductive. I certainly agree that one wants positive
buoyancy in case of a capsize or swamping.
However, in this circumstance, it was my impression that the owner was
proposing to second-guess the designer by using the boat beyond (or at
least at the ragged edge of) intended conditions. I am proposing
ballast as a way to compensate for those proposed conditions.
Certainly I should have been more precise. I meant to say ballast
adequately secured... and Releasable.
As an example: our Goat Island Skiff is a light boat w/lots of sail.
Approx. 140# of flatbottomed plywood boat w/105 sq. ft. of sail. She
also relies on human ballast. While learning to sail, if going out
solo (not enough human ballast), I sometimes added two 70# sandbags
flanking the centerboard case. They can be snugged against the case
w/shock cord. In the event of capsize, they're easily releasable. They
make a huge difference.
It's true that dories have a lot of buoyancy. Corklike. If one is
miles offshore (on the Grand Banks, say) with an empty boat, and the
seas get big, quick - one could heave to, lie in the bottom of the
boat, maybe throw out a sea anchor, and let the sea take you where it
will. If you're talking about SF Bay in rough conditions, I'm guessing
you've gotta sit up and row - to avoid traffic, and stay off the
rocks. Your ballast will, of necessity, be up high. I think I'd also
want some down low.
At least that was my thinking. I've not rowed the Long Light Dory in
such conditions, nor tried any sort of ballast in the one we built, so
it's speculation at this point.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
"Reason is God's crowning gift to man" -- Sophocles
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/15/07, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
> >
>
> > quite tender unloaded. She was quite tipsy w/a single rower. When we
> > put 3 in, she was substantially more stable.
> ...
> > If I were to go rowing in such conditions as you mention, I might be
> > tempted to equip the boat with some ballast. Sand bags, water jugs,
> > pigs of lead or iron - adequately secured.
>
> I typically don't entertain the 'how to improve a Bolger boat'
> speculation. Personally, I would fear the 'sand bags' or 'pigs of
> lead or iron' suggestions, as I favor boats with net positive
> buoyancy! On the other hand, a thick wooden bottom like with
> Birdwatcher provides righting moment and extra buoyancy or wood, or a
> water tank like with Whalewatcher provides righting moment with
> neutral buoyancy. Both without a tendency to sink a flooded boat.
> Water jugs are like a water tank in some respects.
>
> In any case I recall reading that a Gloucester Gull skips along the
> top of the water when towed fast, without taking (or keeping) any
> water. The real issue is that the weight of the single rower is 'live
> ballast' that can tip the boat. I recall reading somewhere that a
> rower in an old time dory (when things really got rough) learned to
> keep his weigh low in the hull, I am guessing by sitting or lying on
> the bottom of the boat.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.11/1071 - Release Date: 10/15/2007 6:48 AM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AHHHHHHH It's a rowboat! Thanks! I wasnt sure whether it was actually a 19 foot sailing dory you were discussing. Dories can be ballasted and sailed too.. we had many off the coast of Maine.
I am new to stitch & glue and other "instant boat building" techniques, but it is my thought that the ribs and keel of a regular design might be needed when one starts thinking about adding serious ballast. As I remember our sailing dories used to have about 400 to 600 pounds of ballast in the keel. Some Dories were fitted with centerboards too for sailing.
I am presently sailing a 26 foot Gaff rigged Sharpie which is a modified dory hull.. flat on the bottom with a swing keel. It draws only 11 inches with the centerboard up, but handles heavy seas quite well with the board down.
So a Dory hull will definately handle the conditions you are discussing, but whether one can add heavy ballast to Bolger's instant build design without a rigid keel and ribs to upport the poundage.. I would not know. Maybe someone could email Bolgers site and ask someone?
Regards,
Andrew
Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
Here is John Kolb's site on his Long Dory
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/long_dory_1.htm
I am pretty sure that Harold Payson sells plans but I couldn't find them
on his web page
http://www.instantboats.com/
HJ
Andres Espino wrote:
Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am new to stitch & glue and other "instant boat building" techniques, but it is my thought that the ribs and keel of a regular design might be needed when one starts thinking about adding serious ballast. As I remember our sailing dories used to have about 400 to 600 pounds of ballast in the keel. Some Dories were fitted with centerboards too for sailing.
I am presently sailing a 26 foot Gaff rigged Sharpie which is a modified dory hull.. flat on the bottom with a swing keel. It draws only 11 inches with the centerboard up, but handles heavy seas quite well with the board down.
So a Dory hull will definately handle the conditions you are discussing, but whether one can add heavy ballast to Bolger's instant build design without a rigid keel and ribs to upport the poundage.. I would not know. Maybe someone could email Bolgers site and ask someone?
Regards,
Andrew
Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
Here is John Kolb's site on his Long Dory
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/long_dory_1.htm
I am pretty sure that Harold Payson sells plans but I couldn't find them
on his web page
http://www.instantboats.com/
HJ
Andres Espino wrote:
> I am not familiar with the Bolger design for a Dory, but I did grow up with Dories as used for small fishing boats off the coast of Maine. I have seen those 15 to 20 foot Dories taken out to tend lobster traps and fish in all kinds of rough weather and seaworthiness is one of the main characteristics that Dories are known for. You cant get much worse seas than off Nova Scotia and the coast of Maine.---------------------------------
>
> I have recently discovered Phil Bolger's boats myself, and I would be very interested to know a lot more about this Bolger design. Can you post some more specifications for it and perhaps some pics? Anything you folks in the group can tell us "newbies" would be really great!
>
> regards,
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> archierieus <archierieus@...> wrote:
> I recently acquired a Bolger extended dory. Haven't put it in the
> water yet. I have done some repairs, and am about ready to launch
> her. Here is my question: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and
> I was wanting to take her down to Sausalito and the Golden Gate.
> Conditions there can be rough, with pretty serious chop and strong
> currents. Is the extended dory game for those waters? Secondly, I
> saw pics of a long dory with a foredeck and spray guard added. Would
> that make a significant difference in seaworthiness? I am thinking of
> doing the same, and also adding a 6-inch side deck and aft deck as
> well. Would appreciate any thoughts about that?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here is John Kolb's site on his Long Dory
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/long_dory_1.htm
I am pretty sure that Harold Payson sells plans but I couldn't find them
on his web page
http://www.instantboats.com/
HJ
Andres Espino wrote:
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/long_dory_1.htm
I am pretty sure that Harold Payson sells plans but I couldn't find them
on his web page
http://www.instantboats.com/
HJ
Andres Espino wrote:
> I am not familiar with the Bolger design for a Dory, but I did grow up with Dories as used for small fishing boats off the coast of Maine. I have seen those 15 to 20 foot Dories taken out to tend lobster traps and fish in all kinds of rough weather and seaworthiness is one of the main characteristics that Dories are known for. You cant get much worse seas than off Nova Scotia and the coast of Maine.
>
> I have recently discovered Phil Bolger's boats myself, and I would be very interested to know a lot more about this Bolger design. Can you post some more specifications for it and perhaps some pics? Anything you folks in the group can tell us "newbies" would be really great!
>
> regards,
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> archierieus <archierieus@...> wrote:
> I recently acquired a Bolger extended dory. Haven't put it in the
> water yet. I have done some repairs, and am about ready to launch
> her. Here is my question: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and
> I was wanting to take her down to Sausalito and the Golden Gate.
> Conditions there can be rough, with pretty serious chop and strong
> currents. Is the extended dory game for those waters? Secondly, I
> saw pics of a long dory with a foredeck and spray guard added. Would
> that make a significant difference in seaworthiness? I am thinking of
> doing the same, and also adding a 6-inch side deck and aft deck as
> well. Would appreciate any thoughts about that?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
On 10/15/07, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
[snip]
so true, I ditto
> If you're talking about SF Bay in rough conditions, I'm guessing
> you've gotta sit up and row - to avoid traffic, and stay off the
> rocks.
In the Golden Gate, you want to stay off both the rocks of course,
...and also out of the 'potato patch' that develops when the
prevailing wind stacks the waves up on a fast flowing ebb current, and
also out of the surf zone at Fort Point and elsewhere, (and bring a
compass and bell for the fog) etc..
Bruce,
I agree that second-guessing the designer is usually futile, or more
likely counterproductive. I certainly agree that one wants positive
buoyancy in case of a capsize or swamping.
However, in this circumstance, it was my impression that the owner was
proposing to second-guess the designer by using the boat beyond (or at
least at the ragged edge of) intended conditions. I am proposing
ballast as a way to compensate for those proposed conditions.
Certainly I should have been more precise. I meant to say ballast
adequately secured... and Releasable.
As an example: our Goat Island Skiff is a light boat w/lots of sail.
Approx. 140# of flatbottomed plywood boat w/105 sq. ft. of sail. She
also relies on human ballast. While learning to sail, if going out
solo (not enough human ballast), I sometimes added two 70# sandbags
flanking the centerboard case. They can be snugged against the case
w/shock cord. In the event of capsize, they're easily releasable. They
make a huge difference.
It's true that dories have a lot of buoyancy. Corklike. If one is
miles offshore (on the Grand Banks, say) with an empty boat, and the
seas get big, quick - one could heave to, lie in the bottom of the
boat, maybe throw out a sea anchor, and let the sea take you where it
will. If you're talking about SF Bay in rough conditions, I'm guessing
you've gotta sit up and row - to avoid traffic, and stay off the
rocks. Your ballast will, of necessity, be up high. I think I'd also
want some down low.
At least that was my thinking. I've not rowed the Long Light Dory in
such conditions, nor tried any sort of ballast in the one we built, so
it's speculation at this point.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
"Reason is God's crowning gift to man" -- Sophocles
************
I agree that second-guessing the designer is usually futile, or more
likely counterproductive. I certainly agree that one wants positive
buoyancy in case of a capsize or swamping.
However, in this circumstance, it was my impression that the owner was
proposing to second-guess the designer by using the boat beyond (or at
least at the ragged edge of) intended conditions. I am proposing
ballast as a way to compensate for those proposed conditions.
Certainly I should have been more precise. I meant to say ballast
adequately secured... and Releasable.
As an example: our Goat Island Skiff is a light boat w/lots of sail.
Approx. 140# of flatbottomed plywood boat w/105 sq. ft. of sail. She
also relies on human ballast. While learning to sail, if going out
solo (not enough human ballast), I sometimes added two 70# sandbags
flanking the centerboard case. They can be snugged against the case
w/shock cord. In the event of capsize, they're easily releasable. They
make a huge difference.
It's true that dories have a lot of buoyancy. Corklike. If one is
miles offshore (on the Grand Banks, say) with an empty boat, and the
seas get big, quick - one could heave to, lie in the bottom of the
boat, maybe throw out a sea anchor, and let the sea take you where it
will. If you're talking about SF Bay in rough conditions, I'm guessing
you've gotta sit up and row - to avoid traffic, and stay off the
rocks. Your ballast will, of necessity, be up high. I think I'd also
want some down low.
At least that was my thinking. I've not rowed the Long Light Dory in
such conditions, nor tried any sort of ballast in the one we built, so
it's speculation at this point.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
"Reason is God's crowning gift to man" -- Sophocles
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/15/07, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
> >
>
> > quite tender unloaded. She was quite tipsy w/a single rower. When we
> > put 3 in, she was substantially more stable.
> ...
> > If I were to go rowing in such conditions as you mention, I might be
> > tempted to equip the boat with some ballast. Sand bags, water jugs,
> > pigs of lead or iron - adequately secured.
>
> I typically don't entertain the 'how to improve a Bolger boat'
> speculation. Personally, I would fear the 'sand bags' or 'pigs of
> lead or iron' suggestions, as I favor boats with net positive
> buoyancy! On the other hand, a thick wooden bottom like with
> Birdwatcher provides righting moment and extra buoyancy or wood, or a
> water tank like with Whalewatcher provides righting moment with
> neutral buoyancy. Both without a tendency to sink a flooded boat.
> Water jugs are like a water tank in some respects.
>
> In any case I recall reading that a Gloucester Gull skips along the
> top of the water when towed fast, without taking (or keeping) any
> water. The real issue is that the weight of the single rower is 'live
> ballast' that can tip the boat. I recall reading somewhere that a
> rower in an old time dory (when things really got rough) learned to
> keep his weigh low in the hull, I am guessing by sitting or lying on
> the bottom of the boat.
>
Bruce,
I agree that second-guessing the designer is usually futile, or more
likely counterproductive. I certainly agree that one wants positive
buoyancy in case of a capsize or swamping.
However, in this circumstance, it was my impression that the owner was
proposing to second-guess the designer by using the boat beyond (or at
least at the ragged edge of) intended conditions. I am proposing
ballast as a way to compensate for those proposed conditions.
Certainly I should have been more precise. I meant to say ballast
adequately secured... and Releasable.
As an example: our Goat Island Skiff is a light boat w/lots of sail.
Approx. 140# of flatbottomed plywood boat w/105 sq. ft. of sail. She
also relies on human ballast. While learning to sail, if going out
solo (not enough human ballast), I sometimes added two 70# sandbags
flanking the centerboard case. They can be snugged against the case
w/shock cord. In the event of capsize, they're easily releasable. They
make a huge difference.
It's true that dories have a lot of buoyancy. Corklike. If one is
miles offshore (on the Grand Banks, say) with an empty boat, and the
seas get big, quick - one could heave to, lie in the bottom of the
boat, maybe throw out a sea anchor, and let the sea take you where it
will. If you're talking about SF Bay in rough conditions, I'm guessing
you've gotta sit up and row - to avoid traffic, and stay off the
rocks. Your ballast will, of necessity, be up high. I think I'd also
want some down low.
At least that was my thinking. I've not rowed the Long Light Dory in
such conditions, nor tried any sort of ballast in the one we built, so
it's speculation at this point.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
"Reason is God's crowning gift to man" -- Sophocles
************
I agree that second-guessing the designer is usually futile, or more
likely counterproductive. I certainly agree that one wants positive
buoyancy in case of a capsize or swamping.
However, in this circumstance, it was my impression that the owner was
proposing to second-guess the designer by using the boat beyond (or at
least at the ragged edge of) intended conditions. I am proposing
ballast as a way to compensate for those proposed conditions.
Certainly I should have been more precise. I meant to say ballast
adequately secured... and Releasable.
As an example: our Goat Island Skiff is a light boat w/lots of sail.
Approx. 140# of flatbottomed plywood boat w/105 sq. ft. of sail. She
also relies on human ballast. While learning to sail, if going out
solo (not enough human ballast), I sometimes added two 70# sandbags
flanking the centerboard case. They can be snugged against the case
w/shock cord. In the event of capsize, they're easily releasable. They
make a huge difference.
It's true that dories have a lot of buoyancy. Corklike. If one is
miles offshore (on the Grand Banks, say) with an empty boat, and the
seas get big, quick - one could heave to, lie in the bottom of the
boat, maybe throw out a sea anchor, and let the sea take you where it
will. If you're talking about SF Bay in rough conditions, I'm guessing
you've gotta sit up and row - to avoid traffic, and stay off the
rocks. Your ballast will, of necessity, be up high. I think I'd also
want some down low.
At least that was my thinking. I've not rowed the Long Light Dory in
such conditions, nor tried any sort of ballast in the one we built, so
it's speculation at this point.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
"Reason is God's crowning gift to man" -- Sophocles
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/15/07, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
> >
>
> > quite tender unloaded. She was quite tipsy w/a single rower. When we
> > put 3 in, she was substantially more stable.
> ...
> > If I were to go rowing in such conditions as you mention, I might be
> > tempted to equip the boat with some ballast. Sand bags, water jugs,
> > pigs of lead or iron - adequately secured.
>
> I typically don't entertain the 'how to improve a Bolger boat'
> speculation. Personally, I would fear the 'sand bags' or 'pigs of
> lead or iron' suggestions, as I favor boats with net positive
> buoyancy! On the other hand, a thick wooden bottom like with
> Birdwatcher provides righting moment and extra buoyancy or wood, or a
> water tank like with Whalewatcher provides righting moment with
> neutral buoyancy. Both without a tendency to sink a flooded boat.
> Water jugs are like a water tank in some respects.
>
> In any case I recall reading that a Gloucester Gull skips along the
> top of the water when towed fast, without taking (or keeping) any
> water. The real issue is that the weight of the single rower is 'live
> ballast' that can tip the boat. I recall reading somewhere that a
> rower in an old time dory (when things really got rough) learned to
> keep his weigh low in the hull, I am guessing by sitting or lying on
> the bottom of the boat.
>
On 10/15/07, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
speculation. Personally, I would fear the 'sand bags' or 'pigs of
lead or iron' suggestions, as I favor boats with net positive
buoyancy! On the other hand, a thick wooden bottom like with
Birdwatcher provides righting moment and extra buoyancy or wood, or a
water tank like with Whalewatcher provides righting moment with
neutral buoyancy. Both without a tendency to sink a flooded boat.
Water jugs are like a water tank in some respects.
In any case I recall reading that a Gloucester Gull skips along the
top of the water when towed fast, without taking (or keeping) any
water. The real issue is that the weight of the single rower is 'live
ballast' that can tip the boat. I recall reading somewhere that a
rower in an old time dory (when things really got rough) learned to
keep his weigh low in the hull, I am guessing by sitting or lying on
the bottom of the boat.
>...
> quite tender unloaded. She was quite tipsy w/a single rower. When we
> put 3 in, she was substantially more stable.
> If I were to go rowing in such conditions as you mention, I might beI typically don't entertain the 'how to improve a Bolger boat'
> tempted to equip the boat with some ballast. Sand bags, water jugs,
> pigs of lead or iron - adequately secured.
speculation. Personally, I would fear the 'sand bags' or 'pigs of
lead or iron' suggestions, as I favor boats with net positive
buoyancy! On the other hand, a thick wooden bottom like with
Birdwatcher provides righting moment and extra buoyancy or wood, or a
water tank like with Whalewatcher provides righting moment with
neutral buoyancy. Both without a tendency to sink a flooded boat.
Water jugs are like a water tank in some respects.
In any case I recall reading that a Gloucester Gull skips along the
top of the water when towed fast, without taking (or keeping) any
water. The real issue is that the weight of the single rower is 'live
ballast' that can tip the boat. I recall reading somewhere that a
rower in an old time dory (when things really got rough) learned to
keep his weigh low in the hull, I am guessing by sitting or lying on
the bottom of the boat.
Dave,
I helped teach a boatbuilding class last summer wherein we build this
boat. At the trials, it was clear that she - like most dories - was
quite tender unloaded. She was quite tipsy w/a single rower. When we
put 3 in, she was substantially more stable. She could have taken
quite a bit more weight before any concerns about adequate freeboard
surfaced. And - like other dories - I imagine that the more weight,
the more solid she'll feel (up to a point, of course).
If I were to go rowing in such conditions as you mention, I might be
tempted to equip the boat with some ballast. Sand bags, water jugs,
pigs of lead or iron - adequately secured. You don't want them
shifting at an inopportune moment, eh?
She seems like a fast, sweet rower. I bet you'll have loads of fun
with her.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd" -- Voltaire
**************
I helped teach a boatbuilding class last summer wherein we build this
boat. At the trials, it was clear that she - like most dories - was
quite tender unloaded. She was quite tipsy w/a single rower. When we
put 3 in, she was substantially more stable. She could have taken
quite a bit more weight before any concerns about adequate freeboard
surfaced. And - like other dories - I imagine that the more weight,
the more solid she'll feel (up to a point, of course).
If I were to go rowing in such conditions as you mention, I might be
tempted to equip the boat with some ballast. Sand bags, water jugs,
pigs of lead or iron - adequately secured. You don't want them
shifting at an inopportune moment, eh?
She seems like a fast, sweet rower. I bet you'll have loads of fun
with her.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd" -- Voltaire
**************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "archierieus" <archierieus@...> wrote:
>
> I recently acquired a Bolger extended dory. Haven't put it in the
> water yet. I have done some repairs, and am about ready to launch
> her. Here is my question: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and
> I was wanting to take her down to Sausalito and the Golden Gate.
> Conditions there can be rough, with pretty serious chop and strong
> currents. Is the extended dory game for those waters? Secondly, I
> saw pics of a long dory with a foredeck and spray guard added. Would
> that make a significant difference in seaworthiness? I am thinking of
> doing the same, and also adding a 6-inch side deck and aft deck as
> well. Would appreciate any thoughts about that?
>
> Dave
>
I am not familiar with the Bolger design for a Dory, but I did grow up with Dories as used for small fishing boats off the coast of Maine. I have seen those 15 to 20 foot Dories taken out to tend lobster traps and fish in all kinds of rough weather and seaworthiness is one of the main characteristics that Dories are known for. You cant get much worse seas than off Nova Scotia and the coast of Maine.
I have recently discovered Phil Bolger's boats myself, and I would be very interested to know a lot more about this Bolger design. Can you post some more specifications for it and perhaps some pics? Anything you folks in the group can tell us "newbies" would be really great!
regards,
Andrew
archierieus <archierieus@...> wrote:
I recently acquired a Bolger extended dory. Haven't put it in the
water yet. I have done some repairs, and am about ready to launch
her. Here is my question: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and
I was wanting to take her down to Sausalito and the Golden Gate.
Conditions there can be rough, with pretty serious chop and strong
currents. Is the extended dory game for those waters? Secondly, I
saw pics of a long dory with a foredeck and spray guard added. Would
that make a significant difference in seaworthiness? I am thinking of
doing the same, and also adding a 6-inch side deck and aft deck as
well. Would appreciate any thoughts about that?
Dave
---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have recently discovered Phil Bolger's boats myself, and I would be very interested to know a lot more about this Bolger design. Can you post some more specifications for it and perhaps some pics? Anything you folks in the group can tell us "newbies" would be really great!
regards,
Andrew
archierieus <archierieus@...> wrote:
I recently acquired a Bolger extended dory. Haven't put it in the
water yet. I have done some repairs, and am about ready to launch
her. Here is my question: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and
I was wanting to take her down to Sausalito and the Golden Gate.
Conditions there can be rough, with pretty serious chop and strong
currents. Is the extended dory game for those waters? Secondly, I
saw pics of a long dory with a foredeck and spray guard added. Would
that make a significant difference in seaworthiness? I am thinking of
doing the same, and also adding a 6-inch side deck and aft deck as
well. Would appreciate any thoughts about that?
Dave
---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beyond the rough water, also bear in mind that the current in and out
of the Golden Gate can be fast, especially relative to the speed of a
rowing boat.
of the Golden Gate can be fast, especially relative to the speed of a
rowing boat.
I recently acquired a Bolger extended dory. Haven't put it in the
water yet. I have done some repairs, and am about ready to launch
her. Here is my question: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and
I was wanting to take her down to Sausalito and the Golden Gate.
Conditions there can be rough, with pretty serious chop and strong
currents. Is the extended dory game for those waters? Secondly, I
saw pics of a long dory with a foredeck and spray guard added. Would
that make a significant difference in seaworthiness? I am thinking of
doing the same, and also adding a 6-inch side deck and aft deck as
well. Would appreciate any thoughts about that?
Dave
water yet. I have done some repairs, and am about ready to launch
her. Here is my question: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and
I was wanting to take her down to Sausalito and the Golden Gate.
Conditions there can be rough, with pretty serious chop and strong
currents. Is the extended dory game for those waters? Secondly, I
saw pics of a long dory with a foredeck and spray guard added. Would
that make a significant difference in seaworthiness? I am thinking of
doing the same, and also adding a 6-inch side deck and aft deck as
well. Would appreciate any thoughts about that?
Dave