Re: Lead prices [was New Micro keel]
In the last month lead has been slipping down as well as most
industry metals. Gold is over $800 but a little spendy for balest.
http://www.minersmanual.com/metalprices.html
I watch the market daily. With China getting hit so hard on lead
paint on exports there demand should come down . LOL as well as some
of there marketing dreams.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
industry metals. Gold is over $800 but a little spendy for balest.
http://www.minersmanual.com/metalprices.html
I watch the market daily. With China getting hit so hard on lead
paint on exports there demand should come down . LOL as well as some
of there marketing dreams.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>over
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick Bedard <sctree@> wrote:
> > Watch the prices of lead containing things like car batteries
> > the next year... Doesn't look to me like the price will will gofor
> > down.
>
>
> The price has just about quadrupled in the past 18 months
>http://commodities.thefinancials.com/
>
> "... it's not a very liquid market and it doesn't take much buying
> to drive the price," said Michael Jansen, a strategist in London
> J.P. Morgan Securities.strong
>http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/19/bloomberg/bxcom.php
>
> "Lead the leading performer this yearsoared 15 percent, on
> battery demand in China, ongoing production losses in Australia,and
> sharply reduced exports from China."http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTDEC/EXTDECPROSPECTS/0,,c
>
>ontentMDK:21148682~menuPK:2457607~pagePK:64165401~piPK:64165026~theSi
> tePK:476883,00.html ( or get there from the World Bank Homepagehttp://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTDAILYPROSPECTS/Resources/132403
>http://www.worldbank.org/Home > Data & Research > Prospects >
> Products > Commodity Markets Review )
>
>
> 7-1124814752790/CommodityMarketsReview-November2007.pdfmetals,
>
>
> "...Although copper is regarded as a price leader among base
> lead has stolen much of the limelight, as speculation of a 90K-100Kto
> tonne supply shortfall this year pushed lead up 32% in two months
> fresh record highs. Supply tightness should ease a little in CY08,our
> but supply is still expected to be constrained. For this reason,
> price forecast for lead enjoys the biggest upgrade of all metalsfor
> the next two years. Other base metals to enjoy a significant upward
> lift include tin and copper..."
>http://www.compareshares.com.au/aegis25.php
>
> Are all those batteries in China mostly for road transport vehicles
> in China?
>
> Fuel cost increase has ship charges doubling in the last year - not
> sure this affects lead very much, though it's added a lot to grain.
>
> Graeme
>
By the way, as to the purchase of the lead and the shipping, I think I paid about $.55 per pound, to one of those ebay sellers who usually send very small ingots, for bullet-makers, etc. The shipping was a good deal too, because theUSPS will take anything that fits in one of their priority boxes and is under something like 60 lbs, for $8 or $9 anywhere in the country. My mailman didn't like the deal much, but my lead came in nine of these priority mail boxes. The ingots had bevelled edges, but they fit together fairly tightly by alternating top and bottom faces. I didn't want to shorten the oak pieces fore and aft of the lead, so made them to plan, and added the additional lead I needed to come up to specs above them, at each end. Actually, I filled the forward part of the keel completely, so there is no free flooding there; and I used up a comparable amount of the free flooding space aft. It's my impression that it would be a mistake to settle for any less than the full design weight of lead, unless one were really going to load the Micro heavily for cruising. I'll be using mine lightly laden most of the time, and I'd like her to float somewhere near her design waterline.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's a bit more effort, but I found that by contacting some local
tire stores I have been able to collect all the lead I need. Look
for ones that do not sell batteries as well since the battery dealers
usually collect the wheel weights as well as the old batteries. I
made friends with one and he provided info on several others in the
area. I left a 5gallon bucket at each with my name and number on
them and make a trip to each once a week to collect the weights.
I easily collected the 500 pounds for my Superbrick and another 700
for my Winter Wren. I melt them down into lead bricks first to get
rid of the clips and grease before using them in the boats.
Paul H.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
tire stores I have been able to collect all the lead I need. Look
for ones that do not sell batteries as well since the battery dealers
usually collect the wheel weights as well as the old batteries. I
made friends with one and he provided info on several others in the
area. I left a 5gallon bucket at each with my name and number on
them and make a trip to each once a week to collect the weights.
I easily collected the 500 pounds for my Superbrick and another 700
for my Winter Wren. I melt them down into lead bricks first to get
rid of the clips and grease before using them in the boats.
Paul H.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>over
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick Bedard <sctree@> wrote:
> > Watch the prices of lead containing things like car batteries
> > the next year... Doesn't look to me like the price will will gofor
> > down.
>
>
> The price has just about quadrupled in the past 18 months
>http://commodities.thefinancials.com/
>
> "... it's not a very liquid market and it doesn't take much buying
> to drive the price," said Michael Jansen, a strategist in London
> J.P. Morgan Securities.strong
>http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/19/bloomberg/bxcom.php
>
> "Lead the leading performer this yearsoared 15 percent, on
> battery demand in China, ongoing production losses in Australia,and
> sharply reduced exports from China."http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTDEC/EXTDECPROSPECTS/0,,c
>
>ontentMDK:21148682~menuPK:2457607~pagePK:64165401~piPK:64165026~theSi
> tePK:476883,00.html ( or get there from the World Bank Homepagehttp://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTDAILYPROSPECTS/Resources/132403
>http://www.worldbank.org/Home > Data & Research > Prospects >
> Products > Commodity Markets Review )
>
>
> 7-1124814752790/CommodityMarketsReview-November2007.pdfmetals,
>
>
> "...Although copper is regarded as a price leader among base
> lead has stolen much of the limelight, as speculation of a 90K-100Kto
> tonne supply shortfall this year pushed lead up 32% in two months
> fresh record highs. Supply tightness should ease a little in CY08,our
> but supply is still expected to be constrained. For this reason,
> price forecast for lead enjoys the biggest upgrade of all metalsfor
> the next two years. Other base metals to enjoy a significant upward
> lift include tin and copper..."
>http://www.compareshares.com.au/aegis25.php
>
> Are all those batteries in China mostly for road transport vehicles
> in China?
>
> Fuel cost increase has ship charges doubling in the last year - not
> sure this affects lead very much, though it's added a lot to grain.
>
> Graeme
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick Bedard <sctree@...> wrote:
http://commodities.thefinancials.com/
"... it's not a very liquid market and it doesn't take much buying
to drive the price," said Michael Jansen, a strategist in London for
J.P. Morgan Securities.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/19/bloomberg/bxcom.php
"Lead the leading performer this yearsoared 15 percent, on strong
battery demand in China, ongoing production losses in Australia, and
sharply reduced exports from China."
http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTDEC/EXTDECPROSPECTS/0,,c
ontentMDK:21148682~menuPK:2457607~pagePK:64165401~piPK:64165026~theSi
tePK:476883,00.html ( or get there from the World Bank Homepage
http://www.worldbank.org/Home > Data & Research > Prospects >
Products > Commodity Markets Review )
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTDAILYPROSPECTS/Resources/132403
7-1124814752790/CommodityMarketsReview-November2007.pdf
"...Although copper is regarded as a price leader among base metals,
lead has stolen much of the limelight, as speculation of a 90K-100K
tonne supply shortfall this year pushed lead up 32% in two months to
fresh record highs. Supply tightness should ease a little in CY08,
but supply is still expected to be constrained. For this reason, our
price forecast for lead enjoys the biggest upgrade of all metals for
the next two years. Other base metals to enjoy a significant upward
lift include tin and copper..."
http://www.compareshares.com.au/aegis25.php
Are all those batteries in China mostly for road transport vehicles
in China?
Fuel cost increase has ship charges doubling in the last year - not
sure this affects lead very much, though it's added a lot to grain.
Graeme
> Watch the prices of lead containing things like car batteries overThe price has just about quadrupled in the past 18 months
> the next year... Doesn't look to me like the price will will go
> down.
http://commodities.thefinancials.com/
"... it's not a very liquid market and it doesn't take much buying
to drive the price," said Michael Jansen, a strategist in London for
J.P. Morgan Securities.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/19/bloomberg/bxcom.php
"Lead the leading performer this yearsoared 15 percent, on strong
battery demand in China, ongoing production losses in Australia, and
sharply reduced exports from China."
http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTDEC/EXTDECPROSPECTS/0,,c
ontentMDK:21148682~menuPK:2457607~pagePK:64165401~piPK:64165026~theSi
tePK:476883,00.html ( or get there from the World Bank Homepage
http://www.worldbank.org/Home > Data & Research > Prospects >
Products > Commodity Markets Review )
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTDAILYPROSPECTS/Resources/132403
7-1124814752790/CommodityMarketsReview-November2007.pdf
"...Although copper is regarded as a price leader among base metals,
lead has stolen much of the limelight, as speculation of a 90K-100K
tonne supply shortfall this year pushed lead up 32% in two months to
fresh record highs. Supply tightness should ease a little in CY08,
but supply is still expected to be constrained. For this reason, our
price forecast for lead enjoys the biggest upgrade of all metals for
the next two years. Other base metals to enjoy a significant upward
lift include tin and copper..."
http://www.compareshares.com.au/aegis25.php
Are all those batteries in China mostly for road transport vehicles
in China?
Fuel cost increase has ship charges doubling in the last year - not
sure this affects lead very much, though it's added a lot to grain.
Graeme
That buck a pound is for collected scrap re-poured into ingots without any guaranty on actual content, not that it matters much for a small keelboat. Not sure how much is out there as scrappers have been buying and hording lead waiting for a run-up. All the metal recyclers I contacted a few years ago were paying 5 cents a pound, I wonder what they are offering now? New lead has been closing in on $4K per ton this fall. Supply and demand I guess. Retail new lead is already over $2 a pound in the US. Watch the prices of lead containing things like car batteries over the next year... Doesn't look to me like the price will will go down.
Rick
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote: On Nov 24, 2007 10:04 AM, <BllFs6@...> wrote:
(Topic drift, have others noticed how the price of lead has
skyrocketed lately? $1 a pound.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rick
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote: On Nov 24, 2007 10:04 AM, <BllFs6@...> wrote:
(Topic drift, have others noticed how the price of lead has
skyrocketed lately? $1 a pound.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Nov 24, 2007 10:04 AM, <BllFs6@...> wrote:
small lead pour a try to evaluate how how difficult melting and
pouring lead is in reality.
(Topic drift, have others noticed how the price of lead has
skyrocketed lately? $1 a pound.)
> Should be able to get 90-95 percent the density of a solid lead pourBefore you give up on using a solid lead pour, I suggest you give a
small lead pour a try to evaluate how how difficult melting and
pouring lead is in reality.
(Topic drift, have others noticed how the price of lead has
skyrocketed lately? $1 a pound.)
In a message dated 11/24/2007 11:24:45 AM Central Standard Time,
masonsmith@...writes:
Here's the way I did the keel.
First, on Ebay, found a lead-seller who would cast the lead in 1.5" thick
ingots up near the USPS weight limit. The ingots ended up being 46 pounds each,
and something like 12" x 7". .....
Sounds like a good plan!
Another variation....that I dont think I have mentioned is this..
You cast....or have cast.....pieces of lead that are like jigsaw puzzle
pieces....with just enough space between them for some epoxy....or maybe even
epoxy with fiberglass fibers mixed in....
Obviously you dont want every shape unique....but 2 or 3 or 4 standard
shapes that "lock well" in at least 2 dimensions....and obviously you have to
trim for edge pieces etc etc...
Should be able to get 90-95 percent the density of a solid lead pour without
too much efffort
just a thought
Blll
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
masonsmith@...writes:
Here's the way I did the keel.
First, on Ebay, found a lead-seller who would cast the lead in 1.5" thick
ingots up near the USPS weight limit. The ingots ended up being 46 pounds each,
and something like 12" x 7". .....
Sounds like a good plan!
Another variation....that I dont think I have mentioned is this..
You cast....or have cast.....pieces of lead that are like jigsaw puzzle
pieces....with just enough space between them for some epoxy....or maybe even
epoxy with fiberglass fibers mixed in....
Obviously you dont want every shape unique....but 2 or 3 or 4 standard
shapes that "lock well" in at least 2 dimensions....and obviously you have to
trim for edge pieces etc etc...
Should be able to get 90-95 percent the density of a solid lead pour without
too much efffort
just a thought
Blll
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just built a ballast keel for a 2002-built Micro that weas used as an outboard cruiser briefly, then was not used until I got it last spring. Here's the way I did the keel.
First, on Ebay, found a lead-seller who would cast the lead in 1.5" thick ingots up near the USPS weight limit. The ingots ended up being 46 pounds each, and something like 12" x 7".
I made the sheathing pieces of 1/2", 7 ply oukoume and with the boat on its side, permanently attached the under-side sheathing.
I supported the sheathing at right angles to the bottom.
I laid out and cut the lead to fill the specified area of the ballast. I laid the ingots with their long dimension in the verticl alignment, cutting their upper ends to fit against the shoe keel, and letting the other ends run just over the lower edge of the sheathing. In some cases of course I used two pieces to fill the space.
I took all these pieces out, weighed them, and set them aside. Totalling the weights I concluded that, as expected, I needed a certain amount morre lead to achieve 412 lbs. I added equal amounts fore and aft of the design keel end lines, to make up the right total..
Now, knowing the end-points of the keel, I could fit and glue in the structural pieces of 2 x 4 oak fore and aft of the lead.
Then I put the lead back on the bottom side of sheathing in ample thickened epoxy, buttering the edges to assure squeeze out. I smeared on more epoxy on top and wetted the sheathing and put it on, clamped up the edge (keeping it straight and well supported) and drove bronze ringnails in as per the building key.
I would rather have a solid piece of lead, but I do think this is very good.
I might mention there a very small amount of planing was necessary, where the ingots were over 1.5" thick, and to dress the bottom edge to a fair curve. And I made the cuts to fit the ingots to the shoe-keel and to each other, where necessary, on my small band-saw, very easily and without incident. I protected myself against contact with the lead, collected the lead shavings and scraps, etc. I do not ot think that this was foolhardy or dangerous, but then, I grew up working in my father's print shop, where we routinely sawed lead.
The only other thing worth mentioning about this keel is that I think it was worthwhile to change the axle of the trailer my Micro came on to a 4" drop axle with underslung springs. This lowers the frame of the trailer enough to make possible floating the boat pretty well onto the trailer with the rear wheels of my tow-car not quite at the water's edge, and thus makes the Micro as easy to launch and retrieve as a centerboard of leeboard trailer-sailer. Presto, all the advantages of the outside ballast with, really, very small disadvantage. It doesn't float in 6" but it does in 18" or so, not too bad. ---Mason Smith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First, on Ebay, found a lead-seller who would cast the lead in 1.5" thick ingots up near the USPS weight limit. The ingots ended up being 46 pounds each, and something like 12" x 7".
I made the sheathing pieces of 1/2", 7 ply oukoume and with the boat on its side, permanently attached the under-side sheathing.
I supported the sheathing at right angles to the bottom.
I laid out and cut the lead to fill the specified area of the ballast. I laid the ingots with their long dimension in the verticl alignment, cutting their upper ends to fit against the shoe keel, and letting the other ends run just over the lower edge of the sheathing. In some cases of course I used two pieces to fill the space.
I took all these pieces out, weighed them, and set them aside. Totalling the weights I concluded that, as expected, I needed a certain amount morre lead to achieve 412 lbs. I added equal amounts fore and aft of the design keel end lines, to make up the right total..
Now, knowing the end-points of the keel, I could fit and glue in the structural pieces of 2 x 4 oak fore and aft of the lead.
Then I put the lead back on the bottom side of sheathing in ample thickened epoxy, buttering the edges to assure squeeze out. I smeared on more epoxy on top and wetted the sheathing and put it on, clamped up the edge (keeping it straight and well supported) and drove bronze ringnails in as per the building key.
I would rather have a solid piece of lead, but I do think this is very good.
I might mention there a very small amount of planing was necessary, where the ingots were over 1.5" thick, and to dress the bottom edge to a fair curve. And I made the cuts to fit the ingots to the shoe-keel and to each other, where necessary, on my small band-saw, very easily and without incident. I protected myself against contact with the lead, collected the lead shavings and scraps, etc. I do not ot think that this was foolhardy or dangerous, but then, I grew up working in my father's print shop, where we routinely sawed lead.
The only other thing worth mentioning about this keel is that I think it was worthwhile to change the axle of the trailer my Micro came on to a 4" drop axle with underslung springs. This lowers the frame of the trailer enough to make possible floating the boat pretty well onto the trailer with the rear wheels of my tow-car not quite at the water's edge, and thus makes the Micro as easy to launch and retrieve as a centerboard of leeboard trailer-sailer. Presto, all the advantages of the outside ballast with, really, very small disadvantage. It doesn't float in 6" but it does in 18" or so, not too bad. ---Mason Smith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]