Re: [bolger] Plans

$45 from Payson

HJ

On 12/27/2010 6:08 PM, Mike Allison wrote:

> Maybe someone is interested in plans for "Black Skimmer".

How much for Black Skimmer?

Michael Allison

> Maybe someone is interested in plans for "Black Skimmer".

How much for Black Skimmer?

Michael Allison

You really have all those plans kicking around?! I am currently building a Michalak Scram Pram but am already thinking of the "next" boat. The Elver does intrique me. If you're offiering ...

Dennis

dennis -mcfadden@...

To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: chamberlands@...
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 02:29:44 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Plans

Maybe someone is interested in plans for "Black Skimmer". How about Steve Redmond's "Whisp"? Steve Redmond's "Elver"??

But it was on the water 2 years ago. As I recall one of the things left to
do was to install the Deutz diesel.

> [Original Message]
> From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 7/14/2005 3:28:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Tahiti, where is she? was operating cost.
>
> > By my guess, it's been about 5 years since Tahiti construction began,

I just did a manhour takeoff for construction of a Tahiti,
counting about 1700 manhours. [pasted below]

At a 'spare time' speed of 24 manhours per month
that works out to seven years elapsed time.

===============================

manhours
Bottom 36

Stem 16

Warped bottom panels 20
foam fill 4

Chine logs 16

Bottom finish 80
Skegs 12
Rudders 12
Rudder boxes 6
Motor mount frames 16

Flipping gantries 20

Frame A 4
Frame B 6
Frame C 6
Frame Cz 6
Frame D 10
Frame E 10
Frame F 8
Frame G 6

Water tank 12
Grey water tank 12
Fuel tanks 32
tank venting� 16
Battery compartment 8
Toilet chamber box 12
Toilet room cabinetry 16

Bed platform 8
Hull insulation at bed 8

Stem piece

Lower sides 36
chine log 8

Cabin floor 12

Upper hull sides 36
shearline logs 18

Raised deck sides 24
chine logs 12

Cabin Window & wall 60

Raised deck & insulation 40

Cabin roof 60
five hatches 60

After deck 32

Steering linkage 24

Catheads & anchor work 40

Boat wiring 60

Handrails 40

Motor & drive unit 100
�exhaust 32

Tender and parrel shelf 100

Diesel heater 12

Diesel stove 12

Pivoting helm seat 24

Dining booth 36

Icebox 24

Wet lockers 24

Upholstry, mattress 100

3 Cabin ladders 40

Bedroom cabinetry 32

Galley cabinetry 64

Engine room windows 32
Bedroom windows 32

Toilet vent pipe 12
Radar installation 12
Engine room hatches 16
===========================
Total manhours 1684

Bolger rules!!!
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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
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On 7/14/05, Sam Glasscock wrote:

> 24 hours a month? But Bruce, doesn't he owe it to us
> to put in at least 50 hours a week?

Real life sometimes intervenes.

24 hours a month? But Bruce, doesn't he owe it to us
to put in at least 50 hours a week? Thats not too
much to ask. After all, we need to see this thing
finished. By my calculations that would have had her
ready to cruise by, let's see, May 17, 2001. Sam

--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

> > By my guess, it's been about 5 years since Tahiti
> construction began,
>
>
> I just did a manhour takeoff for construction of a
> Tahiti,
> counting about 1700 manhours. [pasted below]
>
> At a 'spare time' speed of 24 manhours per month
> that works out to seven years elapsed time.
>
> ===============================
>
> manhours
> Bottom 36
>
> Stem 16
>
> Warped bottom panels 20
> foam fill 4
>
> Chine logs 16
>
> Bottom finish 80
> Skegs 12
> Rudders 12
> Rudder boxes 6
> Motor mount frames 16
>
> Flipping gantries 20
>
> Frame A 4
> Frame B 6
> Frame C 6
> Frame Cz 6
> Frame D 10
> Frame E 10
> Frame F 8
> Frame G 6
>
> Water tank 12
> Grey water tank 12
> Fuel tanks 32
> tank venting 16
> Battery compartment 8
> Toilet chamber box 12
> Toilet room cabinetry 16
>
>
>
> Bed platform 8
> Hull insulation at bed 8
>
> Stem piece
>
> Lower sides 36
> chine log 8
>
> Cabin floor 12
>
> Upper hull sides 36
> shearline logs 18
>
> Raised deck sides 24
> chine logs 12
>
> Cabin Window & wall 60
>
> Raised deck & insulation 40
>
> Cabin roof 60
> five hatches 60
>
> After deck 32
>
> Steering linkage 24
>
> Catheads & anchor work 40
>
> Boat wiring 60
>
> Handrails 40
>
> Motor & drive unit 100
> exhaust 32
>
> Tender and parrel shelf 100
>
> Diesel heater 12
>
> Diesel stove 12
>
> Pivoting helm seat 24
>
> Dining booth 36
>
> Icebox 24
>
> Wet lockers 24
>
> Upholstry, mattress 100
>
> 3 Cabin ladders 40
>
> Bedroom cabinetry 32
>
> Galley cabinetry 64
>
>
> Engine room windows 32
> Bedroom windows 32
>
> Toilet vent pipe 12
> Radar installation 12
> Engine room hatches 16
> ===========================
> Total manhours 1684
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

____________________________________________________
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> By my guess, it's been about 5 years since Tahiti construction began,

I just did a manhour takeoff for construction of a Tahiti,
counting about 1700 manhours. [pasted below]

At a 'spare time' speed of 24 manhours per month
that works out to seven years elapsed time.

===============================

manhours
Bottom 36

Stem 16

Warped bottom panels 20
foam fill 4

Chine logs 16

Bottom finish 80
Skegs 12
Rudders 12
Rudder boxes 6
Motor mount frames 16

Flipping gantries 20

Frame A 4
Frame B 6
Frame C 6
Frame Cz 6
Frame D 10
Frame E 10
Frame F 8
Frame G 6

Water tank 12
Grey water tank 12
Fuel tanks 32
tank venting… 16
Battery compartment 8
Toilet chamber box 12
Toilet room cabinetry 16

Bed platform 8
Hull insulation at bed 8

Stem piece

Lower sides 36
chine log 8

Cabin floor 12

Upper hull sides 36
shearline logs 18

Raised deck sides 24
chine logs 12

Cabin Window & wall 60

Raised deck & insulation 40

Cabin roof 60
five hatches 60

After deck 32

Steering linkage 24

Catheads & anchor work 40

Boat wiring 60

Handrails 40

Motor & drive unit 100
…exhaust 32

Tender and parrel shelf 100

Diesel heater 12

Diesel stove 12

Pivoting helm seat 24

Dining booth 36

Icebox 24

Wet lockers 24

Upholstry, mattress 100

3 Cabin ladders 40

Bedroom cabinetry 32

Galley cabinetry 64

Engine room windows 32
Bedroom windows 32

Toilet vent pipe 12
Radar installation 12
Engine room hatches 16
===========================
Total manhours 1684

I had written to PCB a couple times about Tahiti almost two years ago
(where does the time go). Anyway, he wrote back saying that O'Banion
wanted his privacy, and wouldn't pass on information to contact him. At
the time he said the boat was on the water, but not nearly ready for
shakedown. He said, "O'Banion takes his time." Which is all well and good
except in the 2nd MAIB article about Tahiti PCB said that O'Banion was
keeping track of what worked and what didn't, and he implied there'd be
another article detailing the building. Makes one wonder what went wrong.
By my guess, it's been about 5 years since Tahiti construction began, maybe
longer. And if it was on the water two years ago, what gives? I was very
interested in this design, still am, actually, but lately have been
thinking of just buying a retirement boat. I should probably write PCB
again and ask. Seems a lot of people here would like to know what's going
on with Tahiti.

Frank Bales
Kimmell, IN

> [Original Message]
> From: Philip Smith <pbs@...>
> That was my impression from Susanne who'd visited him.
> I didn't bother him or, as was my intent, offer to
> help and I was living in Key West.

That was my impression from Susanne who'd visited him.
I didn't bother him or, as was my intent, offer to
help and I was living in Key West.

I'm a model of restraint is what I am.

Phil Smith

--- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:

> I got the impression some time ago, I think from
> PB&F,
> that the Tahiti builder wanted to be left alone.
>
> --- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > > > anyone know the status of the Tahiti
> a-building
> > in
> > > > Florida as of a couple of years ago? Sam
> >
> > Google searching on 'W OBanion Florida' finds a
> > person in Big Pine Key
> > Florida who, judging from the Google satelite
> photo,
> > has a nice
> > waterfront building site, and his phone number is
> > listed. My wish would
> > be for someone to pay a visit and to share some
> nice
> > high resolution
> > photographs of the inside and out.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>

I got the impression some time ago, I think from PB&F,
that the Tahiti builder wanted to be left alone.

--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

> > > anyone know the status of the Tahiti a-building
> in
> > > Florida as of a couple of years ago? Sam
>
> Google searching on 'W OBanion Florida' finds a
> person in Big Pine Key
> Florida who, judging from the Google satelite photo,
> has a nice
> waterfront building site, and his phone number is
> listed. My wish would
> be for someone to pay a visit and to share some nice
> high resolution
> photographs of the inside and out.
>

__________________________________________________
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> > anyone know the status of the Tahiti a-building in
> > Florida as of a couple of years ago? Sam

Google searching on 'W OBanion Florida' finds a person in Big Pine Key
Florida who, judging from the Google satelite photo, has a nice
waterfront building site, and his phone number is listed. My wish would
be for someone to pay a visit and to share some nice high resolution
photographs of the inside and out.

The last I heard, which is almost one year ago, Tahiti
was still a work in very slow progress. I haven't been
in contact with PB&F since then, so things may have
changed.

Phil Smith

--- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:

> > [and responding to Sam] I think the 'looks' of
> > Tahiti *in the round*
> > is quite a bit better than on flat paper, or just
> a
> > simple side view
> > photo.
>
> You are undoubtedly correct--I like the plan view a
> lot, but I really like, for instance, the sheer and
> superstructure of Sitka Explorer, with basically the
> same hull. I would sure like to see something of
> Tahiti itself, rather than the drawings. I think
> this
> question was addressed here a few months ago, but
> does
> anyone know the status of the Tahiti a-building in
> Florida as of a couple of years ago? Sam
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

> [and responding to Sam] I think the 'looks' of
> Tahiti *in the round*
> is quite a bit better than on flat paper, or just a
> simple side view
> photo.

You are undoubtedly correct--I like the plan view a
lot, but I really like, for instance, the sheer and
superstructure of Sitka Explorer, with basically the
same hull. I would sure like to see something of
Tahiti itself, rather than the drawings. I think this
question was addressed here a few months ago, but does
anyone know the status of the Tahiti a-building in
Florida as of a couple of years ago? Sam

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

> Hi Bruce,
> In this estimate I am wondering what was the route you made this
> estimate on? And also did you estimate how many days it would take?

The PB&F write up for Tahiti cite a 6.9 knot cruise speed [and an
8.0 knot top speed]. They also cite a nominal cruise range of 5,400
nm in 35 days [24hr days],

The Hassler hull speed is much less due to her waterline of 20 feet
versus DWL 36' feet for Tahiti,

...plus a sailboat cannot keep at hull speed
in less than ideal winds, which never are sustained.

[and responding to Sam] I think the 'looks' of Tahiti *in the round*
is quite a bit better than on flat paper, or just a simple side view
photo. In other words, the hull is very slender [essentially double
ended] and has subtle curves due to the side hull chineline break
just below the hull windows [and coupled with] the recess 'reveal'
of the topsides from the hull sides caused by the setback of that
8" wide 'deck', running along the shearline.

Contract this with the slab sided boats such as Idaho which
lack the subtle curves and look better on paper than in the
round, [in my opinionated opinion at least.]

Ah, we think alike. I would venture a guess that there are many
Europeans that would find moonshine very intriguing.

Nels wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspiredfe@m...> wrote:
> > Lest our non-U.S. members think we are *horribly* spoiled,
> unleaded in
> > Missouri (current residence) is ~ $2.20/gal. Diesel for a few
> years was
> > slightly less than unleaded but has now reverted to significantly
> > higher, $2.50-$2.70/gal.
>
> I wonder if a diesel would run on *biodiesel* "white lightning"
> bootleg corn whiskey and what it runs at per gallon these days?
>
> That way one would have a back-up source of refreshment. What you
> didn't burn in the engine you share with your new-found friends in
> Europe:-)
>
> You might also consider making a new batch for the return trip.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspiredfe@m...> wrote:

> Lest our non-U.S. members think we are *horribly* spoiled,

unleaded in

> Missouri (current residence) is ~ $2.20/gal. Diesel for a few

years was

> slightly less than unleaded but has now reverted to significantly
> higher, $2.50-$2.70/gal.

I wonder if a diesel would run on *biodiesel* "white lightning"
bootleg corn whiskey and what it runs at per gallon these days?

That way one would have a back-up source of refreshment. What you
didn't burn in the engine you share with your new-found friends in
Europe:-)

You might also consider making a new batch for the return trip.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

> > costs a buck a litre, about $4.50 a gallon.
> > RonB.
>> The Tahiti has enough diesel tankage to make it across
> the Atlantic [and back!] on one 'fill up' which would mean
> you could do some price shopping.

Hi Bruce,
In this estimate I am wondering what was the route you made this
estimate on? The departure and arrival points? Total distance. And
also did you estimate how many days it would take?

I am curious since I would like to playyaround with that same
formula only using first a Colonel Hasler and then a Long Micro
Navigator hull instead of Tahiti and try to estimate the weight
factor.

Not because I am planning that trip, but just to estimate a
comparison out of curiosity. Any guestimate on the average hull
speed for the Hasler and the LM? Heck why not include the small
simple motorsailer too. LOA 22' Beam 8' although it has hardly any
interior storage room compared to a LM Nav.

Cheers, Nels

Lest our non-U.S. members think we are *horribly* spoiled, unleaded in
Missouri (current residence) is ~ $2.20/gal. Diesel for a few years was
slightly less than unleaded but has now reverted to significantly
higher, $2.50-$2.70/gal. Travelling to NE Wisconsin (hopefully new
residence before winter), prices get steadily higher going north,
$2.30-$2.40 for unleaded July 4, $0.20-$0.30 higher than in Missouri at
the time. Presumably Wisconsin prices are correspondingly higher now.
There are higher retail prices being reported in other parts of the
country. It's certainly no $4-$7/gal., but I've not seen prices under
$2, except for a brief drop just before the November elections, for a
long time.

Bruce Hallman wrote:

> On 7/13/05, Peter Anderson <paa@...> wrote:
> > Where are you buying fuel for $1.50 per gallon?
>
> I should have guessed closer to $2 per gallon for dyed diesel.
>
>http://www.ga.wa.gov/pca/Fuel/Fuel07-12-05.htm
>
> For one URL
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger>" on the web.
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

On 7/13/05, Peter Anderson <paa@...> wrote:

> Where are you buying fuel for $1.50 per gallon?

I should have guessed closer to $2 per gallon for dyed diesel.

http://www.ga.wa.gov/pca/Fuel/Fuel07-12-05.htm

For one URL

--- "Peter Anderson" <paa@a...> wrote:

> Where are you buying fuel for $1.50 per gallon?

In Vietnam.
Stefan

Where are you buying fuel for $1.50 per gallon?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: [bolger] Tahiti, operating cost.

> I was just looking over the Tahiti 'ocean passage maker' design.
> [A long distance, low power motor cruiser.] The thought dawned
> on me that somehow I had a false bias in my mind favoring sailboats
> for passage making. [The wind is free, and all.]
>
> At a diesel fuel burn rate of 1 gallon per hour, that Tahiti
> rivals the economy of a similar sized sailboats.
>
> In other words, $1.50 of fuel an hour to operate the powerboat,
> roughly equals the depreciation cost on a set of sails.
> Pretty much they break even. More so, the time of passage
> of Tahiti would be faster than with a similar sized sailboat.
>
> For perspective, certain people can drink $1.50 per hour. :-)
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

> And it is only going to get worse I would expect, as supplies become
> shorter.

or,rather,the greed expands :-(

Peter L.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Ron Badley <badley@s...> wrote:

> Boat fuel is available here in Canada. Usually about 10 cents a

litre

> cheaper. About $4 a gallon. So, that relates to about 50 cents a

mile

> at 8 knots. Not bad at all, but still costs 2 grand to cross the
> Atlantic.
>
> RonB.
>

I would suggest that the prices vary wildly depending what part of
Canada you live in. Particularly once you venture north a bit. Gets
pretty crazy going into even the fringes of isolation.

And it is only going to get worse I would expect, as supplies become
shorter.

Nels

Boat fuel is available here in Canada. Usually about 10 cents a litre
cheaper. About $4 a gallon. So, that relates to about 50 cents a mile
at 8 knots. Not bad at all, but still costs 2 grand to cross the
Atlantic.

RonB.

On 12-Jul-05, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> Here in the USA, road tax is added to the $1.50/gallon,
> and if you certify that your diesel is for 'off road' use,
> such as for boats, you can get exempted from the road tax.
> Perhaps much of the $4.50 cost in Canada is tax?
>
> The Tahiti has enough diesel tankage to make it across
> the Atlantic [and back!] on one 'fill up' which would mean
> you could do some price shopping.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...>
wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...>

wrote: "For

> perspective, certain people can drink $1.50 per hour. :-)"
>
> I and I'm certain Peter Lenihan, le Mouton Gris de Mon'real,

resent

> suck frivolously amateurish attempts at drinking dollars by the

hour.

>
> Why, on several occasions, I've personally witnessed him drink $5

in a

> second or two. And what about a downing a shot of $300 Johnny

Walker

> Blue Label? I can do that in the wink of a eye.
>
> $1.50 a hour, pershaw!
>
> A draft beer is more than that.
>
> Le Mouton Noir de Kingston
> Black Heart Buccaneer Bos'un Bruce

Thanks fer settin' 'im straight Capt'n! ARRRRgh! By golly, with
temps. topping out at 120+ degrees F. in the boat shed,the beer
alone is bloody well evaporatin' at about $1.50Can/hour......an'
dats why ya gotta down the stuff right quick before it rises up to
the heavens an' does no good to no one :-)
And thanks to the eternally blissful state of suspended poverty
which highlights my existance,it will be a rare and happy day when I
too can claim to downing heaven sent shots of $300.00 hootch!

le petite mouton gris de Montreal

Pierre"Greydick"Lenihan

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@y...>
wrote:

>> Marine fuel attendant: "Welcome to Ireland. Fill 'er
> up, sir?"
> Tahiti skipper: "How much is the deisel?"
> Attendant: "E1.10 a liter."
> Skipper: "Hmm. No thanks. I think I'll check the
> price in Malta."
>

Almost choked on my $1.50 beer when I read that. Having travelled in
Europe last summer where the gas was $2 Cdn a liter I found price
shopping to be pretty scarey and almost ran out a couple of times
trying to seek out a lower price. You could come up to a gas station
advertising a lower price and find the pumps closed!

Besides since when did polytarp and bamboo and wood have such a
depreciation factor? I also like the otpion to sail and motorsail
especially with an electric motor. Perhaps a small genset as well.

Cheers,

Nels (Still thinking about the small motorsailer)

>
> Do you have inside knowledge that Sitka Explorer is
> 'in the works'?

Naw, wish I did. I only know that someone has
commissioned plans--don't know how close they are.
Your comments about "price shopping" deisel with a
multi-thousand-mile-range boat brings some interesting
scenerios to mind:
Marine fuel attendant: "Welcome to Ireland. Fill 'er
up, sir?"
Tahiti skipper: "How much is the deisel?"
Attendant: "E1.10 a liter."
Skipper: "Hmm. No thanks. I think I'll check the
price in Malta."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote: "For
perspective, certain people can drink $1.50 per hour. :-)"

I and I'm certain Peter Lenihan, le Mouton Gris de Mon'real, resent
suck frivolously amateurish attempts at drinking dollars by the hour.

Why, on several occasions, I've personally witnessed him drink $5 in a
second or two. And what about a downing a shot of $300 Johnny Walker
Blue Label? I can do that in the wink of a eye.

$1.50 a hour, pershaw!

A draft beer is more than that.

Le Mouton Noir de Kingston
Black Heart Buccaneer Bos'un Bruce

> short-range power cruiers (Sitka Exporer, Delaware)
> that PB&F have in the works. Sam

Do you have inside knowledge that Sitka Explorer is
'in the works'?

My MAIB with _Delaware_ has not yet arrived, perhaps
is awaits in todays mailbox?

> costs a buck a litre, about $4.50 a gallon.
> RonB.

Here in the USA, road tax is added to the $1.50/gallon,
and if you certify that your diesel is for 'off road' use,
such as for boats, you can get exempted from the road tax.
Perhaps much of the $4.50 cost in Canada is tax?

The Tahiti has enough diesel tankage to make it across
the Atlantic [and back!] on one 'fill up' which would mean
you could do some price shopping.

Bruce, I don't know if you have had a chance to read
Beebe's "Voyaging under Power", but he makes that case
pretty forcefully. It seems counterintuitive, but as
you point out factoring in depreciation/opportunity
cost of the sails/rigging/sticks/etc., it is not clear
that operation of a power cruiser (of the displacement
type) is more expensive than sailing an aux. cruising
sailboat. Tahiti is indeed intriuging, but I don't
think she is as good-looking as some of the
short-range power cruiers (Sitka Exporer, Delaware)
that PB&F have in the works. Sam

--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

> I was just looking over the Tahiti 'ocean passage
> maker' design.
> [A long distance, low power motor cruiser.] The
> thought dawned
> on me that somehow I had a false bias in my mind
> favoring sailboats
> for passage making. [The wind is free, and all.]
>
> At a diesel fuel burn rate of 1 gallon per hour,
> that Tahiti
> rivals the economy of a similar sized sailboats.
>
> In other words, $1.50 of fuel an hour to operate
> the powerboat,
> roughly equals the depreciation cost on a set of
> sails.
> Pretty much they break even. More so, the time of
> passage
> of Tahiti would be faster than with a similar sized
> sailboat.
>
> For perspective, certain people can drink $1.50 per
> hour. :-)
>

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Fuel is only that price in the US. Pretty much every where else in the
world fuel is at least 4 times as expensive. Even here in Canada diesel
costs a buck a litre, about $4.50 a gallon.

Besides, I'd rather sail than motor. It's just more fun and worth the
extra money.

RonB.

On 12-Jul-05, at 12:55 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> In other words, $1.50 of fuel an hour to operate the powerboat,
> roughly equals the depreciation cost on a set of sails.
> Pretty much they break even. More so, the time of passage
> of Tahiti would be faster than with a similar sized sailboat.

I was just looking over the Tahiti 'ocean passage maker' design.
[A long distance, low power motor cruiser.] The thought dawned
on me that somehow I had a false bias in my mind favoring sailboats
for passage making. [The wind is free, and all.]

At a diesel fuel burn rate of 1 gallon per hour, that Tahiti
rivals the economy of a similar sized sailboats.

In other words, $1.50 of fuel an hour to operate the powerboat,
roughly equals the depreciation cost on a set of sails.
Pretty much they break even. More so, the time of passage
of Tahiti would be faster than with a similar sized sailboat.

For perspective, certain people can drink $1.50 per hour. :-)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

> PC&F specifies the 'Sonic Cat-Drive 2" on several of their
> newer designs, Tahiti, for instance, but the marketing
> of the Cat-Drive by Sillette-Sonic Ltd. seems to have
> stopped [as if the production has stopped]. Does
> anybody know what is going on?
>
>http://www.sillette.co.uk/
>http://members.ozemail.com.au/~minards/sonic2.html

try this link:

http://www.sillette.co.uk/first.htm

fritz koschmann

PC&F specifies the 'Sonic Cat-Drive 2" on several of their
newer designs, Tahiti, for instance, but the marketing
of the Cat-Drive by Sillette-Sonic Ltd. seems to have
stopped [as if the production has stopped]. Does
anybody know what is going on?

http://www.sillette.co.uk/
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~minards/sonic2.html

Check the current issue of Wooden Boat. There's an electric cruiser in
there that is based on Bolger's Tennessee. The builder added a box
keel, like the step sharpies. The box keel adds enough underwater
volume to handle the added weight of a ton of batteries.

Just something to think about.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...> wrote:
> Six knots with electric power may be tough to acheive, except for
very short
> bursts. You'll need lots of battery power to go that fast, which
adds weight
> which makes it harder to go that fast. Unity speed (SQRT(WL)) is about 5
> knots, which is probably the top end of what you could expect with
> reasonable electric power.
>
> What motor would you use? On of the new B&S 3 HP jobs?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Schroeder" <rjs@b...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plans
>
>
> > [bolger] Re: PlansHi Don, Howard and John,
> >
> > Thanks for the replies. One thing that do want for sure is a near
> vertical stem for as long of waterline length as possable for the boats
> total length since I will be using electric propulsion and the boat
will be
> in displacement mode all the time. I am not looking for rough water
> performance, just a soft ride at around 6 kts. with low power usage
in mild
> to moderate chop. (My Zodiac pounds us to death.)
> >
> > Ron Schroeder
> > WD8CDH
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Six knots with electric power may be tough to acheive, except for very short
bursts. You'll need lots of battery power to go that fast, which adds weight
which makes it harder to go that fast. Unity speed (SQRT(WL)) is about 5
knots, which is probably the top end of what you could expect with
reasonable electric power.

What motor would you use? On of the new B&S 3 HP jobs?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Schroeder" <rjs@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plans

> [bolger] Re: PlansHi Don, Howard and John,
>
> Thanks for the replies. One thing that do want for sure is a near
vertical stem for as long of waterline length as possable for the boats
total length since I will be using electric propulsion and the boat will be
in displacement mode all the time. I am not looking for rough water
performance, just a soft ride at around 6 kts. with low power usage in mild
to moderate chop. (My Zodiac pounds us to death.)
>
> Ron Schroeder
> WD8CDH
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[bolger] Re: PlansHi Don, Howard and John,

Thanks for the replies. One thing that do want for sure is a near vertical stem for as long of waterline length as possable for the boats total length since I will be using electric propulsion and the boat will be in displacement mode all the time. I am not looking for rough water performance, just a soft ride at around 6 kts. with low power usage in mild to moderate chop. (My Zodiac pounds us to death.)

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is Bolger's Slicer. See:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/excerpts/maib/1/index.cfm

It would not be as easy to build as Sneakeasy, nor have the old-time
style, but it sure would cut through a chop.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@i...>
wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Schroeder" <rjs@b...> wrote:
> > [bolger] Re: PlansHi Don,
> >
> > I too have been thinking of building a Sneak (possably shrunk by

> feet) but I was wondering how a warped V bottom would compare to
> either the step-chine or flat bottom. I would be using it here in

the

> Great South Bay of Long Island which always has moderate chop.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ron
>
>
> I would say that a modification to that degree is simply a

different

> boat, and I can't begin to comment on its ability. You're on your

own

> concerning the design. I suggest buying plans from a reputable
> designer for a boat that more suits your needs. Bolger and

Michalak

> both have designs that will suit your perceived needs.

A couple of years ago Don Carron (who commisioned the box cutwater
Sneakeasy) and I tried to come up with a v-bottom version. It proved to be
too difficult for my meager skills. Having gone through the exercise, I can
tell you that it would be difficult to stick a vee'd cutwater on Sneakeasy
that wouldn't require cold molding and would not degrade the performance of
the boat to an unacceptable degree.

As an aside, Don told me he had originally asked Bolger to come up with a
vee bottomed modification and the box cutwater is what came back, somewhat
to Don's displeasure.

If low power moderate speed rough water performance is what you want, why
not look at Harry Bryan's "Handy Billy" boats instead?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Schroeder" <rjs@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plans

> [bolger] Re: PlansHi Don,
>
> I too have been thinking of building a Sneak (possably shrunk by 2 feet)
but I was wondering how a warped V bottom would compare to either the
step-chine or flat bottom. I would be using it here in the Great South Bay
of Long Island which always has moderate chop.
>
> Thanks,
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: donschultz8275
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 3:31 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Plans
>
>
> <snip>IMO, the stepchine version makes sense, and Bolger designed it to
> handle "sometimes rough water of Galveston Bay". However Bolger also
> stresses, "the simplicity is lost". The prototype step chine Sneak'
> was built on a ladder frame. Carlson apparently did much of his
> upright on a flat floor, but not in a classic "stitch and glue"
> format.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Schroeder" <rjs@b...> wrote:

> [bolger] Re: PlansHi Don,
>
> I too have been thinking of building a Sneak (possably shrunk by 2

feet) but I was wondering how a warped V bottom would compare to
either the step-chine or flat bottom. I would be using it here in the
Great South Bay of Long Island which always has moderate chop.

>
> Thanks,
> Ron

I would say that a modification to that degree is simply a different
boat, and I can't begin to comment on its ability. You're on your own
concerning the design. I suggest buying plans from a reputable
designer for a boat that more suits your needs. Bolger and Michalak
both have designs that will suit your perceived needs.

Michalak's Dorado would seem to be the correct size, and well suited
to rough water. If you really want to build Bolger, the Diablo Grande
would be nearly perfect for your stated needs. You could approach the
Sneakeasy styling by building a foredeck.

I also think that, if a Sneakeasy is what you've got in you head, the
step chine version would handle the chop you describe well. Remember
the Sneakeasy's length does much to soften the ride in chop by
bridging over the waves. IMO what you would need to avoid are heavy
swells, where you could get the boat running down a swell and burying
the bow in the trough with little reserve bouyancy.

The shortening you describe would mean little more than not including
the "dovetails" on the stern. Again I'll leave it to others
concerning the impact on the way the boat handles with out them. I do
know I'd want to build some flotation in the stern to replace them if
she's swamped.

But others here are MUCH more expert than I.

[bolger] Re: PlansHi Don,

I too have been thinking of building a Sneak (possably shrunk by 2 feet) but I was wondering how a warped V bottom would compare to either the step-chine or flat bottom. I would be using it here in the Great South Bay of Long Island which always has moderate chop.

Thanks,
Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: donschultz8275
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plans

<snip>IMO, the stepchine version makes sense, and Bolger designed it to
handle "sometimes rough water of Galveston Bay". However Bolger also
stresses, "the simplicity is lost". The prototype step chine Sneak'
was built on a ladder frame. Carlson apparently did much of his
upright on a flat floor, but not in a classic "stitch and glue"
format.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hulls includes a file for that version. No need for full size patterns.
Mark

donschultz8275 wrote:

> The offsets for the step
> chine version are in BWAOM. Note that Carlson speaks of printing
> full size templates on Tyvek. Might be worth asking if he would sell
> a set of templates to one holding a "legal" set of plans. Such a set
> of templates could return the design to "Instant Boat" status.

Howard Stephenson wrote:

> So it would not be possible to build it instant-boat style without
> first working out the panel dimensions. The Hulls program could do
> that.

I doubt if it is faster, more drag points. The original is easy to build
and just fantastic to ride in. Fritz Funk

http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Sneakeasy/Sneakeasy.htm

is my neighbor. The performance of his Sneakeasy has been beyond all
expectation. You can not feel the transition to a plane, It stays flat
and just goes faster. It cuts through light chop like a Mercedes with
active suspension. He moved the boat to Wisconsin where he runs it in
the sloughs off of the upper Mississippi and found an unexpected
performance plus, with the motor partially retracted in the ducktail it
acts like a poor man's tunnel drive enabling him to go into very shallow
water. With the Sneakeasy's shallow draft he has extracted people off of
a hard aground aluminum skiff with outboard jet drive by floating up
next to it and having passengers step aboard. Don't forget the 200 mile
cruise on the Mississippi with gas left in the 12 gal tank.

I personally think all you get with the step design is more work and
degraded looks.

HJ

tysond99 wrote:

>I thought the step version is faster and will plane. I would use
>this for an afternoon cruiser where extra speed may be nice. Any
>insight? I know the original version is easier to build.
>Don
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
>
>
>>What is your reason for preferring the step version?
>>
>>HJ
>>
>>Nels wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tysond99" <tysond99@y...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>How does one obtain plans. I'm looking to build a sneakeasy,
>>>>preferably with the step sharpie bottom.
>>>>
>>>>Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Standard plans here:
>>>
>>>http://www.instantboats.com/sneakeasy.htm
>>>
>>>For the step version you would have to contact Bolger:
>>>
>>>Phil Bolger & Friends
>>>P.O. Box 1209
>>>Gloucester MA
>>>01930
>>>
>>>Fax: 978-282-1349
>>>
>>>Cheers, Nels
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you're interest more in getting on the water than building, Jeff
Blunk may sell you his Sneakeasy. It's in Colorado.

The link Nels provided above leads to the best website I know of
concerning Sneakeasy. That an Alaskan would make so much use of the
design speaks volumes of its seaworthiness.

The "Common Sense" people have a spotty record in delievering
products they sell. Again, not all the time, but sometimes. Then
there is also the issue of proper licensing of the designs. Payson
is legal CSB isn't. Payson has authored a book I highly
recommend, "Building the New Instant Boats".

IMO, the stepchine version makes sense, and Bolger designed it to
handle "sometimes rough water of Galveston Bay". However Bolger also
stresses, "the simplicity is lost". The prototype step chine Sneak'
was built on a ladder frame. Carlson apparently did much of his
upright on a flat floor, but not in a classic "stitch and glue"
format.

There is a link on the previously mentioned page to Greg Carlson's
record of building his step chine version. The offsets for the step
chine version are in BWAOM. Note that Carlson speaks of printing
full size templates on Tyvek. Might be worth asking if he would sell
a set of templates to one holding a "legal" set of plans. Such a set
of templates could return the design to "Instant Boat" status.

Best Wishes.

The text in BWAOM indicates that Bolger would only be able to
provide dimensioned plans for the step-chine version; i.e. like a
table of offsets but with the numbers shown on the drawing rather
than in a table.

So it would not be possible to build it instant-boat style without
first working out the panel dimensions. The Hulls program could do
that.

Somewhere on the web -- and maybe one of the previous posts has
pointed to it -- there is or was a website detailing construction of
the step version.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...>
wrote:

> In BWAOM Phil mentioned the step sharpie version of Sneak was

designed

> for a client on Houston Bay, to better handle the chop and

crosswinds.

In BWAOM Phil mentioned the step sharpie version of Sneak was designed
for a client on Houston Bay, to better handle the chop and crosswinds.

Both plane easily, on very low power.

The original, flat bottom one, is technically planing when standing
still. I got a ride on Steve Bosquette's at the '03 Messabout, and it
was really cool. Now my sister wants me to build her one for day
outings on the Rideau and 1000 Islands. It rides well, handled small
chop <1' easily, and was stable with even my extra large ballasted butt
standing up at the windscreen conning her with two other adults on
board.

Nice boat.

Buried in one of the Bolger groups are some cabin and profile sketches
by Steve, and several good pics are about on the net.

Bruce Hector

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tysond99" <tysond99@y...> wrote:

> I thought the step version is faster and will plane. I would use
> this for an afternoon cruiser where extra speed may be nice. Any
> insight? I know the original version is easier to build.
> Don
>

You can review some online information here:

http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Sneakeasy/Sneakeasy.htm

Gregg Carlson, who moderates this group built a step-chine version so
you might consider contacting him. Either version planes easily. The
step version may have better handling qualities in waves perhaps?
Gregg could tell you.

Nels

I thought the step version is faster and will plane. I would use
this for an afternoon cruiser where extra speed may be nice. Any
insight? I know the original version is easier to build.
Don

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
> What is your reason for preferring the step version?
>
> HJ
>
> Nels wrote:
>
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tysond99" <tysond99@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>How does one obtain plans. I'm looking to build a sneakeasy,
> >>preferably with the step sharpie bottom.
> >>
> >>Don
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Standard plans here:
> >
> >http://www.instantboats.com/sneakeasy.htm
> >
> >For the step version you would have to contact Bolger:
> >
> >Phil Bolger & Friends
> >P.O. Box 1209
> >Gloucester MA
> >01930
> >
> >Fax: 978-282-1349
> >
> >Cheers, Nels
> >
> >
> >

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...>
wrote:

>http://www.common-sense-boats.com/
>
>
>
> Jon Cassino
>

Be aware that the above location is selling unauthorized, illegal boot-
legged plans. There are no royalties being paid to the designer.

The plans themselves are incomplete and you will get no assistance or
updates from the designer, Phil Bolger.

Nels

http://www.common-sense-boats.com/

Jon Cassino

This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent to you.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ricardo Ribeiro
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plans

and micro plans?
----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:32 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plans

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tysond99" <tysond99@y...> wrote:
> How does one obtain plans. I'm looking to build a sneakeasy,
> preferably with the step sharpie bottom.
>
> Don

Standard plans here:

http://www.instantboats.com/sneakeasy.htm

For the step version you would have to contact Bolger:

Phil Bolger & Friends
P.O. Box 1209
Gloucester MA
01930

Fax: 978-282-1349

Cheers, Nels

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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What is your reason for preferring the step version?

HJ

Nels wrote:

>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tysond99" <tysond99@y...> wrote:
>
>
>>How does one obtain plans. I'm looking to build a sneakeasy,
>>preferably with the step sharpie bottom.
>>
>>Don
>>
>>
>
>Standard plans here:
>
>http://www.instantboats.com/sneakeasy.htm
>
>For the step version you would have to contact Bolger:
>
>Phil Bolger & Friends
>P.O. Box 1209
>Gloucester MA
>01930
>
>Fax: 978-282-1349
>
>Cheers, Nels
>
>
>

and micro plans?

----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:32 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plans

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tysond99" <tysond99@y...> wrote:
> How does one obtain plans. I'm looking to build a sneakeasy,
> preferably with the step sharpie bottom.
>
> Don

Standard plans here:

http://www.instantboats.com/sneakeasy.htm

For the step version you would have to contact Bolger:

Phil Bolger & Friends
P.O. Box 1209
Gloucester MA
01930

Fax: 978-282-1349

Cheers, Nels

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tysond99" <tysond99@y...> wrote:

> How does one obtain plans. I'm looking to build a sneakeasy,
> preferably with the step sharpie bottom.
>
> Don

Standard plans here:

http://www.instantboats.com/sneakeasy.htm

For the step version you would have to contact Bolger:

Phil Bolger & Friends
P.O. Box 1209
Gloucester MA
01930

Fax: 978-282-1349

Cheers, Nels

How does one obtain plans. I'm looking to build a sneakeasy,
preferably with the step sharpie bottom.

Don

Hi Rick,
Really not all that many. I've built a few boats but I've spent a lot
more time reviewing what's out there and doing a bit of dreaming.

The boats I've built are: "Tremolino" which is a trimaran designed by
Dick Newick. I built the center hull; the outhulls are from a Hobie
16. The next was a "Nereia" pram by LF Herreshoff. Next was my
"Hawkeye" variation, then a "Teal" and the last one is my "Bobcat". Of
course I've had a number of other boats in various states of disrepair
needing rehabilitation. As is evident from the plans list I've also
considered any numbers of others. The first set of plans I bought were
for a 23' 6" carvel planked boat by Harrison Farrell of Massapeequa,
L.I. New York. "Duet" by name. That was a long time ago. The estimated
cost was about$5000 and of course I was in school on the GI bill and
didn't have a pot to piss in. Those plans I keep just for the
sentiment. But this is more than you asked about.
Bob Chamberland

--- In bolger@y..., sctree@d... wrote:
> Hey Bob,
>
> Over the years I've seen your name attached to several different
Bolger boats.
>
> I'm curious.
>
> If you don't mind saying, how many, and which Bolger designs have
you built or owned?
>
> Thanks,
> Rick

Hey Bob,

Over the years I've seen your name attached to several different Bolger boats.

I'm curious.

If you don't mind saying, how many, and which Bolger designs have you built or owned?

Thanks,
Rick

In regard to these plans please respond offline. Thanks
Bob Chamberland

--- In bolger@y..., "rdchamberland" <cha62759@t...> wrote:
> I have the following sets of plans for sale. No boats have been built
> from any of them.
> Elver
> Badger
> Microtrawler
> 18' Sharpie Outboard Motor Campskiff, By Chapelle. This is the boat
> that "Redwing" is based on.
> Martha Jane
> Black Skimmer
>
> Bob Chamberland

For me, the Elver.
Mark

rdchamberland wrote:

>
> I have the following sets of plans for sale. No boats have been built
> from any of them.
> Elver
> Badger
> Microtrawler
> 18' Sharpie Outboard Motor Campskiff, By Chapelle. This is the boat
> that "Redwing" is based on.
> Martha Jane
> Black Skimmer
>
> Bob Chamberland

Where did you buy the Bolger plans from. I am interested in some of
the plans.

John

--- In bolger@y..., "rdchamberland" <cha62759@t...> wrote:
> I have the following sets of plans for sale. No boats have been
built
> from any of them.
> Elver
> Badger
> Microtrawler
> 18' Sharpie Outboard Motor Campskiff, By Chapelle. This is the boat
> that "Redwing" is based on.
> Martha Jane
> Black Skimmer
>
> Bob Chamberland

--- In bolger@y..., "rdchamberland" <cha62759@t...> wrote:

> I have the following sets of plans for sale. No boats have been built
> from any of them.

I might be interested in the Microtrawler. How much?

Thanks

I have the following sets of plans for sale. No boats have been built
from any of them.
Elver
Badger
Microtrawler
18' Sharpie Outboard Motor Campskiff, By Chapelle. This is the boat
that "Redwing" is based on.
Martha Jane
Black Skimmer

Bob Chamberland

Hi Mike,
Bolger has a few good books if you can find them. Keep donig seaches
on ebay and half.com and they will show up sooner or later (I gt mine
using both). Look in the Database to the left of this screen and you
will find a list of his boats that this group knows of. Cross
reference the pictures and Bolger2 Group.
Hope this helps
Rich

--- In bolger@y..., "pibracing" <mcerio02@t...> wrote:
> Is there a list somewhere or a catalog of all the Bolger plans? How
do
> I find out what plans are offered and how do I buy them?
>
> Thanks
> Mike

yeah good ?

How do you get your hands on all of Bolgers small boat designs?

Todd

--- In bolger@y..., "pibracing" <mcerio02@t...> wrote:
> Is there a list somewhere or a catalog of all the Bolger plans? How
do
> I find out what plans are offered and how do I buy them?
>
> Thanks
> Mike

Is there a list somewhere or a catalog of all the Bolger plans? How do
I find out what plans are offered and how do I buy them?

Thanks
Mike

Bolger would "white out" the offsets if he didn't want you to have them,
and no one (judges included) in his right mind is, ever, ever, ever, going
to believe you can buy and read a book (or plans) on boat-building but you
can't do it.

Let's end this "stealing", "your opinion's irrelevent", "if you thought
this, you'd be that" business. And, I'll bet Bolger and his lawyer have
better things to do than run down book-built Brick's on Lilly.

In fact, for anyone that gets a summary judgement in Gloucester for using
that book after reading it: I'll pay it. But, agreed, share the wealth a
little - blueprints and a little help are nice and they're cheap.

Back to boat building, jacks.

Gregg Carlson
(the moderator)

At 10:22 AM 6/29/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>
>>Do you think you could get a replacement for a lost disk from
>>Microsoft?
>
>Our shop gets replacement disks from Apple and Adobe at nominal cost
>on regular basis. The are charging for the data, not the disk. The
>Adobe products are protected by licence numbers that prevent multiple
>copies being run on the same network. The apple products are not.
>
>What MicroSoft's policy is, I don't know. We avoid their products and
>company as much as we can.
>
>In the end, laws are only meaningful as they are enforced. No one
>drives the speed limit, and no one seems to care. It's even easier to
>do that than it is to steal a boat idea!
>
>Someone said they were under the impression that building fees were
>sort of a "gentlemen's agreement." It occurs to me that all of this
>is sort of a gentlemen's agreement. Most crime is not prevented by
>threat of enforcement, but by the fact than most of us think that
>committing the crime is wrong.
>
>While it's very easy to see why taking an apple off a fruit vender's
>cart is stealing, it's a little harder to conceptualize what thievery
>is taking place when you build a boat from a book you bought and paid
>for.
>
>In the end, those of us who make our livings selling ideas (see, I
>have a personal stake,) price things accordingly. What we *should* be
>getting paid isn't nearly as important as what we *do* get paid. As
>long as that's enough to keep buying plywood and epoxy, that's enough
>for me.
>
>YIBB,
>
>
>CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
>134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
>New York, NY 10001
>(212) 247-0296
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Get Red Herring perspective on the flood of venture capital here and
>abroad with FREE e-newsletters: Dealflow, Dealflow Europe and VCPS.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5015/13/_/3457/_/962288211/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.

At 12:55 AM +0000 6/29/00, Rich Deming wrote:

>My two cents worth are this. The key is in your last sentence "for my
>personal use". I have built from Payson's book also, even called him
>and told him I was doing so, but when I started my projects, they
>were intended "for my own personal use" and I still feel that it is
>okay. Now faced with selling at least one of my boats, Do I Send
>Bolger or Payson a check and what is a customary royalty? The price
>of the plans or a percentage of the sale price? To me it is the right
>thing to do. I plan on building many more boats in the future and
>surely don't want to black ball myself for the small price of plans.

If you built the boats as a business with the intent to sell and make
a profit then by all means pay a royalty.

If you are selling your boats after using them yourself I don't feel any
compensation is necessary. Does anyone expect to make a profit selling
a used boat? By the time you deduct building and maintenance costs
-- don't forget labor -- from the selling price Bolger might owe you money?!

That said, until you get clear guidance from someone truly knowledgeable
let your conscience be your guide. A quiet conscience is worth considerable
time and expense.

hal

>Do you think you could get a replacement for a lost disk from
>Microsoft?

Our shop gets replacement disks from Apple and Adobe at nominal cost
on regular basis. The are charging for the data, not the disk. The
Adobe products are protected by licence numbers that prevent multiple
copies being run on the same network. The apple products are not.

What MicroSoft's policy is, I don't know. We avoid their products and
company as much as we can.

In the end, laws are only meaningful as they are enforced. No one
drives the speed limit, and no one seems to care. It's even easier to
do that than it is to steal a boat idea!

Someone said they were under the impression that building fees were
sort of a "gentlemen's agreement." It occurs to me that all of this
is sort of a gentlemen's agreement. Most crime is not prevented by
threat of enforcement, but by the fact than most of us think that
committing the crime is wrong.

While it's very easy to see why taking an apple off a fruit vender's
cart is stealing, it's a little harder to conceptualize what thievery
is taking place when you build a boat from a book you bought and paid
for.

In the end, those of us who make our livings selling ideas (see, I
have a personal stake,) price things accordingly. What we *should* be
getting paid isn't nearly as important as what we *do* get paid. As
long as that's enough to keep buying plywood and epoxy, that's enough
for me.

YIBB,

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 247-0296

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, T Webber wrote:

> When I purchase information in a book, that information is mine to do
> with as I see fit, for my personal use.

Tim: You may prefer an anarchic, purely libertarian world, but it's not
the one we live in. We don't get to make the rules up as we like
them--there are intellectual property and copyright laws, and I for one am
grateful.

Now, in the case of the Bolger/Payson books, they both know and intend
that people will try to build from the books. You notice that there is
simply not enough detail for the large complex boats to be built, but
there's enough to build the simple stuff--it's clearly their intent.

Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.

One of the complexities of this "book plans" discussion is that the
legal protection that a design has depends on exactly what is sold
and how.

If you purchase plans directly from the designer, it is clear that
the law holds that you are purchasing the assistance and knowledge of
the designer for a particular purpose (or perhaps I should say with
certain stated rights). The physical plans are simply the means for
recording and conveying the designer's knowledge and advice.

However, if the designer publishes the material in a book, it is by
no means clear that the same contract is in force, especially if it
is not in any way explicit. I believe that ordinary copyright
applies, which means you can use the information in the book for your
personal use, but you can not reproduce it or sell it.

On the other hand, designers (and software companies who operate
under a similar situation) sometimes try to have it both ways. For
example, suppose you buy plans for $500 with the right to build one
boat. If the plans are lost or ruined, how much should you have to
pay for a replacement set? I would say that you should only have to
pay the fair cost of reproduction and mailing, but I suspect that
most designers selling stock plans would want the full $500.

(Some sellers of stock plans, e.g. Payson, don't charge much more
than a fair markup over reproduction cost in the first place.)

Do you think you could get a replacement for a lost disk from
Microsoft?

Peter

To the two Davids --

I stand corrected and edified. Being a books-only guy, I never
considered those performance royalties for songs and plays -- all the
beyond-textual reproduction of a work. I went to the US Copyright
Office site to find out more, and this little statement pretty much
confirm for me what both Davids are saying: that boat designs are
covered by copyright law.

"Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects
original
works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and
artistic works such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer
software and **architecture.** Copyright does not protect facts,
ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the
way these things are expressed."

That mention of architecture did it for me -- boat design is pretty
much the same thing.

Sorry about my misinformation -- a little learning is a dangerous
thing.

All best,
Garth

Stan Muller wrote:

> Garth, you are 100% correct!
> > Not to veer too far off subject with this plans debate, but copyright
> > law protects only the reproduction of the actual text (and drawings)
> > in the book -- not the use of the plans.
> <snip> Copyright
> protects the printed material, and NOT the product!
> <snip>

I disagree.
Copyright law protects "Intellectual property." A book, song or boat design
is not the piece of paper upon which it appears (or, in the case of songs
and many books on tape, the CD/tape). It is "the idea" of the book, song or
boat that is protected.

That being said, I would still believe that a book of complete boat designs
would infer the right to build the designs for personal use.

Anyone know an intellectual property attorney we can ask?

David

>Just curious. I run a book publishing company and am familar with
>copyright law, but know much less about patent law, and, well,
>absolutely nothing about boat-design law. But this question is very
>interesting in the abstract. Anyone who can get a marine lawyer to
>weigh in would satisfy my curiosity.

The design for a boat can be compared to a piece of music or script
for play. When either is performed publicly, the composer or author
is due a payment. What this payment is, and under what circumstances
it must be made frequently varies with the size and type of
performance. High School drama departments send Neil Simon checks all
the time.

Building a boat can be likened to making a public performance.
Similarly, the fee can vary depending on use, such as: $250 or 2% of
the sale price, whichever is greater. Whether or not the boat is for
"personal use" is only relevant if the owner of the copyright says it
is.

In my younger, wilder days, we used to rip off whitewater kayak
designers all the time. So hot new boat would come out, and we'd make
a female mold off what ever copy of it we could get our hands on and
crank off couple of copies for our "personal use," mold fee be
damned. The fact that our mold was made from a legal purchased copy
of the boat meant this was nothing less than thievery, but we seemed
to feel that it was more important to be well stocked for beer on our
river trips than to properly compensate the boat designers for their
creative efforts.

This is no different from laying up a second AS29, whether you look
at the plans the second time or not. It has absolutely nothing to do
with marine law, and everything to do with copyright law. When you
see that (C) symbol, you can assume that ALL rights are reserved by
the holder, except those *specifically* granted. If copyright holders
were obligated to enumerate all the ways people might steal from
them, copyright notices would be longer than most texts.

Beuhler has some amusing things to say about all this in his book. He
tells the reader that he really ought to pony up the building fee,
and that if he does, he'll get more detail plans plus some help if he
needs it. He then goes on to say that if you know what you are doing,
you can probably build right out of the book, but he'll have some
Haitian voodoo lady put a curse on you.

I'm glad there's that bit in BTNIB. A friend has been giving me many
hours on the LS Margaret Ellen. He just bought a 30' sloop, but has
no dingy. I'm planning on building a nymp for him, but hadn't been
planning on sending anyone any royalty check.

YIBB,

David

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 247-0296

Ethics protect the designer.

Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00

> Garth, you are 100% correct!
> > Not to veer too far off subject with this plans debate, but copyright
> > law protects only the reproduction of the actual text (and drawings)
> > in the book -- not the use of the plans.
> Early in my days of having to obtain patients for some items I came
> up with, I thought I could use copyright law to protect my inventions,
> as a cheap way to save on having to pay for the patients. Needless to
> say, it didn't work, and just for the reason you stated. Copyright
> protects the printed material, and NOT the product!
> As far as patient law, and how it would apply to this thread, boat
> designs, at least the kind we are dealing with, aren't patented. You
> would be hard pressed to patient a boat that has been around since the
> turn or the century or longer, i.e. cat boat, schooner, skip jack, etc.
> As for me; It is just so much easier to work from plans, and they are
> such a small part of the overall cost, I take the easy way out and buy
> the plans.
> Regards, Stan Micro tugger, Snow Goose; Built from plans, with Ideas
> form every where else. ;-)

Garth, you are 100% correct!

> Not to veer too far off subject with this plans debate, but copyright
> law protects only the reproduction of the actual text (and drawings)
> in the book -- not the use of the plans.

Early in my days of having to obtain patients for some items I came
up with, I thought I could use copyright law to protect my inventions,
as a cheap way to save on having to pay for the patients. Needless to
say, it didn't work, and just for the reason you stated. Copyright
protects the printed material, and NOT the product!
As far as patient law, and how it would apply to this thread, boat
designs, at least the kind we are dealing with, aren't patented. You
would be hard pressed to patient a boat that has been around since the
turn or the century or longer, i.e. cat boat, schooner, skip jack, etc.
As for me; It is just so much easier to work from plans, and they are
such a small part of the overall cost, I take the easy way out and buy
the plans.
Regards, Stan Micro tugger, Snow Goose; Built from plans, with Ideas
form every where else. ;-)

I had a similar experience with paint for metals and plywood. I
built
a sandbox in the shape of a rowboat for a children's group and
painted
it with John Deere tractor paint. After 6 years of being exposed to
the elements and filled with wet sand it is still going strong. It
is
a very unattractive shade of yellow, but I don't have the heart to
repaint it as the kids are really attached to it.

David Jost "waiting for the Tall Ships in Boston"

I figure that since I have built from the book and from plans I must
get my two cents in here.

Payson does say that you can build from the book. I built Nymph this
way. It was simple enough that any small errors were easily fixed.
I
built Diablo, and Pointy Skiff from purchased plans. I can assure
you
that having everything scaled up nicely to read with the architects
ruler is worth the cost of admission. On any project larger than a
six foot pram I would have to say that the cost of the plans is
offset
by the time saved in working on the actual project. The plans could
not amount to any more than 6% of the total cost on many of these
boats. Building from the book is in my opinion "misplaced frugality".
You also have to realize what lousy condition your very nice BWAOM
is going to be in when all is finished. You have to ask yourself
"was it worth it"
I could not imagine building MICRO without the plans and
numbered
sequence.

David Jost, Boston
Celebrating the first of two (who said rot prone!) chines. They will
be solidly encapsulated in WEST epoxy. ok, I admit I broke the
other
chine and have to make another one.

In a message dated 06/28/2000 9:<BR13:<BR23 PM
Eastern Daylight ,thedemings@...writes:> they

> were intended "for my own personal use" and I still feel that it is
> okay. Now faced with selling at least one of my boats, Do I Send
> Bolger or Payson a check and what is a customary royalty? The price
> of the plans or a percentage of the sale price? To me it is the right
> thing to do. I plan on building many more boats in the future and
> surely don't want to black ball myself for the small price of plans.

Well,

If you had bought the book but not built a boat from it but rather....used
the ideas and techniques in the book to make a different, if somewhat
Bolgeresque, boat.

Now what a pickle you are in. You still used the intellectual property, even
if not the plans. Now you want to sell your boat, what do you do?

Back to your earlier argument, I say that you didn't build the boat for
commercial purposed, but for personal use. Now that you want to sell it, it
doesn't change the original "contract". If you felt OK about building it, you
should feel OK about disposing of it. If you burned it, neither Bolger nor
Payson would benefit. If you queried them about their preference (burning or
selling), I'd guess they'd say, "sell the thing to a boat lover; just tell
them whose design it is so they can tell others who ask."

I think the money is owed them if you build a subsequent boat from a plan,
either for sale or your own use. Build another (different design) from the
book and you're still under the original contract. If you purpose to build
every boat in the book just for sale, then you have integrity problems. Not
the case here, I know.

Cheers/Step

My two cents worth are this. The key is in your last sentence "for my
personal use". I have built from Payson's book also, even called him
and told him I was doing so, but when I started my projects, they
were intended "for my own personal use" and I still feel that it is
okay. Now faced with selling at least one of my boats, Do I Send
Bolger or Payson a check and what is a customary royalty? The price
of the plans or a percentage of the sale price? To me it is the right
thing to do. I plan on building many more boats in the future and
surely don't want to black ball myself for the small price of plans.
Rich

SNIP>

> When I purchase information in a book, that information is mine to

do with as I see fit, for my personal use.

>
> Tim

>> There is a very strong suggestion that it is not alright, i.e. the

copywrite notice in the front of the book. Unless it is *explicitly*
stated that readers are free to build from the copywrited material
without a builders fee, it can be assumed it is NOT okay. <<

David et. al. --

Not to veer too far off subject with this plans debate, but copyright
law protects only the reproduction of the actual text (and drawings)
in the book -- not the use of the plans.

Patent law -- a whole different kettle of fish -- protects the
building of devices and the following of unique "industrial
processes," which these plans would be construed to be. But are boat
designs patented? I don't think most designers bother. You never see
a Pat. Pending notice on them. I've always assumed that paying a
builder's fee was more of a gentleman's agreement. Is there really a
body of law that specifically governs all this?

Just curious. I run a book publishing company and am familar with
copyright law, but know much less about patent law, and, well,
absolutely nothing about boat-design law. But this question is very
interesting in the abstract. Anyone who can get a marine lawyer to
weigh in would satisfy my curiosity.

FWIW, Payson's books do explicitly tell you to build right out of the
book. But as soon as I got Build the New Instant Boats (which says
something like "Read this and start cutting lumber the same day," I
sent away for three different sets of full-sized plans, just to have
them. Maybe that's the philosophy behind Payson and Bolger basically
giving plans away in the book -- get us hooked like a bunch of
junkies and we'll always come back for more . ..

All best,
Garth

List,

I painted my June Bug with Red Devil brand "Duratex". I did not use any
primer or sealer. It is labelled as a "water based high gloss enamel". The
paint has served well for three seasons. Boat is kept upside down outside
all year (Houston, TX area). I have had some dryrot, but that was not as a
result of the paint. The plywood is "BC" southern yellow pine. It has not
checked. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Tim

David,

<<snipped quote>>
How you find my argument is irrelevant. The fact remains that the
plans published in BWOM are included for informational purposes only.
If you build from them, you are obligated to pay a building fee.
Whether or not you do that is your business, and whether or not
Bolger decides to seek legal remedies from you, or anyone else, is
his.
<<end of snipped quote>>

I just did a cursory review of the book BWOM and I could not find this
statement anywhere. Can you point out where in BWOM this statement occurs.

Tim - the one in Houston

List,

On the inside cover of "Build the New Instant Boats" by Harrold Payson, the
following quote appears; "(You can build directly from the book, but the
purchase of larger-scale plans at a modest cost from Dynamite will make the
task of scaling off the patterns easier.)" The summation of the cost of all
the plans shown in this volume far exceed the $19.95 that I paid for it.

When I purchase information in a book, that information is mine to do with
as I see fit, for my personal use.

Tim

Mark --

Consider the following:

"How to Build the Glouchester Light Dory" can be purchased from H.
Payson for a cost of $10.95 and contains drawing sufficient to build
the boat, along with a detailed step by step.

The plans for the Glouchester Light Dory (all two sheets of them) can
also be purchased from H.Payson for about $25 or $30.

The cost of either of the "Instant Boat" books is less than any one
plan set referred to in the text.

Either:

A) Mr. Payson and Mr. Bolger really would rather have us buy the
lower margin books and forgo ponying up for the higher margin plans
(because they're so grateful we want to build the boats.)

or

B) The books are intended as companion volumes to the purchase of
plans (and the accompanying right to build a hull.)

As far as what the author and/or designer actually expect any of us
are going to do when we decide we really DO need a skimmer after
all...well nothing I've read from either of them leads me to believe
they are fools, and I doubt they walk to the mailbox expecting to
find a bunch of notes "Please find enclosed a check in the amount of
$30. I just build another "Tortoise."

However, it should be remembered that the ease with which a theft can
be accomplished has no bearing as to whether or not it is a theft.
Robbing an old lady of her social security money is no less illegal
than knocking over Fort Knox. The theft of copyrighted materials is
so commonplace, most don't even recognize it as theft most of the
time. When we get called on it, we find our selves saying things like
"the author/composer/photographer/designer has to expect some
people...." Sounds a little like "dressed that way, she had it
coming" to me.

YIBB,

David

>I tend to agree. A clear exception, though, must be for
>works that purport to show you how to do it, viz. Payson's
>Instant Boats, Build the New Instant boats or Go Build Your
>Own Boat.
>
>Peter: One would be crazy soon to build a Folding Schooner
>from the book.
>
>
>
>A set of plans is a beautiful, tangible item, "Updated
>responsibly," and worth the modest price.
>
>Mark
>
>David Ryan wrote:
>>
>> Peter --
>>
>> How you find my argument is irrelevant. The fact remains that the
>> plans published in BWOM are included for informational purposes only.
>> If you build from them, you are obligated to pay a building fee.
>> Whether or not you do that is your business, and whether or not
>> Bolger decides to seek legal remedies from you, or anyone else, is
>> his.
>>
>> For example, earlier this year when I was discussing possible
>> modification of the "Birdwatcher" to suit my ill-advised plans, Mr.
>> Bolger was very quick to point out that the $150 cost of the plans
>> covered the construction of ONE BOAT. If you think the $30 cover
>> price of BWOM entitles you to build any or all of the boats
>> (including the "Birdwatcher") contain within, without obligating
>> yourself to a building fee, than you have a naive and self-serving
>> misunderstanding of intellectual property rights.
>>
>> There is no more implication the the information contained in the
>> book is yours to use to build any single boat than there is
>> implication it's yours to reprint and resell. If you have any doubts,
>> pen a note to Mr. Bolger and I'm sure he'll be happy to set you
>> straight.
>>
>> Yours very truly,
>>
>> David
>>
>> >No. I find your arguement a little like argueing that you can't read
>> >the book without additional permission. Or that if you bought a fix-
>> >it manual for your car, you couldn't use the info in it to fix your
>> >car.
>> >
>> >There is an implication that when you pay for the book, you are
>> >paying to use it, and that would include using the info for building
>> >a boat.
>> >
>> >Of course, you can't resell the plans - that's forbidden. But you can
>> >use what you have.
>> >
>> >Peter.
>> >
>> >
>> >> There is a very strong suggestion that it is not alright, i.e. the
>> >> copywrite notice in the front of the book. Unless it is
>> >*explicitly*
>> >> stated that readers are free to build from the copywrited material
>> >> without a builders fee, it can be assumed it is NOT okay.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>Peter Vanderwaart wrote
>
>>That said, many builders have decided after the fact that
>it is a
>>false economy. The time spent squinting at tiny print and
>figuring
>>out things that might be explained in the instruction sheet
>is worth
>>the small price of the plans. In your place, I would buy
>the plans.
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Lonely? Get Firetalk!
>> >Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world.
>> >Free voice chat on hundreds of topics.
>> >http://click.egroups.com/1/5477/13/_/3457/_/962210870/
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 247-0296

David:

I tend to agree. A clear exception, though, must be for
works that purport to show you how to do it, viz. Payson's
Instant Boats, Build the New Instant boats or Go Build Your
Own Boat.

Peter: One would be crazy soon to build a Folding Schooner
from the book.

A set of plans is a beautiful, tangible item, "Updated
responsibly," and worth the modest price.

Mark

David Ryan wrote:

>
> Peter --
>
> How you find my argument is irrelevant. The fact remains that the
> plans published in BWOM are included for informational purposes only.
> If you build from them, you are obligated to pay a building fee.
> Whether or not you do that is your business, and whether or not
> Bolger decides to seek legal remedies from you, or anyone else, is
> his.
>
> For example, earlier this year when I was discussing possible
> modification of the "Birdwatcher" to suit my ill-advised plans, Mr.
> Bolger was very quick to point out that the $150 cost of the plans
> covered the construction of ONE BOAT. If you think the $30 cover
> price of BWOM entitles you to build any or all of the boats
> (including the "Birdwatcher") contain within, without obligating
> yourself to a building fee, than you have a naive and self-serving
> misunderstanding of intellectual property rights.
>
> There is no more implication the the information contained in the
> book is yours to use to build any single boat than there is
> implication it's yours to reprint and resell. If you have any doubts,
> pen a note to Mr. Bolger and I'm sure he'll be happy to set you
> straight.
>
> Yours very truly,
>
> David
>
> >No. I find your arguement a little like argueing that you can't read
> >the book without additional permission. Or that if you bought a fix-
> >it manual for your car, you couldn't use the info in it to fix your
> >car.
> >
> >There is an implication that when you pay for the book, you are
> >paying to use it, and that would include using the info for building
> >a boat.
> >
> >Of course, you can't resell the plans - that's forbidden. But you can
> >use what you have.
> >
> >Peter.
> >
> >
> >> There is a very strong suggestion that it is not alright, i.e. the
> >> copywrite notice in the front of the book. Unless it is
> >*explicitly*
> >> stated that readers are free to build from the copywrited material
> >> without a builders fee, it can be assumed it is NOT okay.
> >>
> >
> >

Peter Vanderwaart wrote

>That said, many builders have decided after the fact that

it is a

>false economy. The time spent squinting at tiny print and

figuring

>out things that might be explained in the instruction sheet

is worth

>the small price of the plans. In your place, I would buy

the plans.

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world.
> >Free voice chat on hundreds of topics.
> >http://click.egroups.com/1/5477/13/_/3457/_/962210870/
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> How you find my argument is irrelevant. The fact remains that the
> plans published in BWOM are included for informational purposes

only.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I would welcome
learned opinions.

My position is this: an author who publishes a book with instructions
on how to do something must expect that a certain number of buyers
will go ahead and do it. For him to expect additional payment is
unrealistic, especially if the requirement for it is not mentioned in
the book.

I wonder how many people send royalties to Martha Stewart every time
they do one of her projects...

By the way, is it not explicit in Harold Payson's books that you can
build from the plans therein?

Peter

Peter --

How you find my argument is irrelevant. The fact remains that the
plans published in BWOM are included for informational purposes only.
If you build from them, you are obligated to pay a building fee.
Whether or not you do that is your business, and whether or not
Bolger decides to seek legal remedies from you, or anyone else, is
his.

For example, earlier this year when I was discussing possible
modification of the "Birdwatcher" to suit my ill-advised plans, Mr.
Bolger was very quick to point out that the $150 cost of the plans
covered the construction of ONE BOAT. If you think the $30 cover
price of BWOM entitles you to build any or all of the boats
(including the "Birdwatcher") contain within, without obligating
yourself to a building fee, than you have a naive and self-serving
misunderstanding of intellectual property rights.

There is no more implication the the information contained in the
book is yours to use to build any single boat than there is
implication it's yours to reprint and resell. If you have any doubts,
pen a note to Mr. Bolger and I'm sure he'll be happy to set you
straight.

Yours very truly,

David

>No. I find your arguement a little like argueing that you can't read
>the book without additional permission. Or that if you bought a fix-
>it manual for your car, you couldn't use the info in it to fix your
>car.
>
>There is an implication that when you pay for the book, you are
>paying to use it, and that would include using the info for building
>a boat.
>
>Of course, you can't resell the plans - that's forbidden. But you can
>use what you have.
>
>Peter.
>
>
>> There is a very strong suggestion that it is not alright, i.e. the
>> copywrite notice in the front of the book. Unless it is
>*explicitly*
>> stated that readers are free to build from the copywrited material
>> without a builders fee, it can be assumed it is NOT okay.
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lonely? Get Firetalk!
>Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world.
>Free voice chat on hundreds of topics.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5477/13/_/3457/_/962210870/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 247-0296

Re : Building Jap Beach Cruiser from BWAOM drawings

Dear Group,
Legal and moral issues aside, this is still an interesting situation.
Looking at BWAOM I'm sure one could build from whats there.
However I'd suffer from the nagging feeling I was doing it hard.
I would buy the plans, because
1/ they are cheap (not certain of price but the bigger Catfish plans are
$40, Dynamite Payson.)
2/ Something important is always left out of book plans..
3/ The plans will pay for themselves, in time , peace of mind, accuracy.
I'd be likely to mis-read a figure on the shot-down/shot-up book drawings,
as
my eyes are a bit worn out.
From squinting at small scale plans.
Cheers all
Jeff Gilbert

No. I find your arguement a little like argueing that you can't read
the book without additional permission. Or that if you bought a fix-
it manual for your car, you couldn't use the info in it to fix your
car.

There is an implication that when you pay for the book, you are
paying to use it, and that would include using the info for building
a boat.

Of course, you can't resell the plans - that's forbidden. But you can
use what you have.

Peter.

> There is a very strong suggestion that it is not alright, i.e. the
> copywrite notice in the front of the book. Unless it is

*explicitly*

> stated that readers are free to build from the copywrited material
> without a builders fee, it can be assumed it is NOT okay.
>

>Many boats have been built from the plans in Bolger's books. There is
>no suggestion in the books that it is not alright. If he published
>enough detail for you to build the boat, then go ahead.

There is a very strong suggestion that it is not alright, i.e. the
copywrite notice in the front of the book. Unless it is *explicitly*
stated that readers are free to build from the copywrited material
without a builders fee, it can be assumed it is NOT okay.

How zealously Mr.Bolger pursues infringement is an entirely differnt
matter. Which reminds me, I gotta go back to napster.com and get some
more Metalica mp3s.

YIBB,

David

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 247-0296

Many boats have been built from the plans in Bolger's books. There is
no suggestion in the books that it is not alright. If he published
enough detail for you to build the boat, then go ahead.

That said, many builders have decided after the fact that it is a
false economy. The time spent squinting at tiny print and figuring
out things that might be explained in the instruction sheet is worth
the small price of the plans. In your place, I would buy the plans.

Peter

> Just a quick question.
> Would anyone be able to tell me where I stand with usage of plans

from Bolgers BWaOM.

Hi all

Just a quick question.

Would anyone be able to tell me where I stand with usage of plans from Bolgers BWaOM.

I am considering building the Japanese Beach Cruiser and find that there is enough information in the study plans in the book to build if I use a bit of common sense (Pardon the pun).

Where do I stand legally and morally as I do not want to cheat the designer of his income, but would have paid a royalty on the book when I purchased it($63 Aus).

Any input would be great before I proceed.

Also I realise that not all study plans become the full blown thing so these may be all that is on offer.

Just thought I'd ask before bothering Mr Bolger.

Still Dreaming ( Cause it don't cost any )

John Blake

john_blake@...