Re: [bolger] Scarfing link
I made a scarfing jig that has some promise using a router. This would
be easier to explain if I had a picture, but I only recently got a
digital camera and to save storage space it's all taken apart now.
Basically, I cut two identical side pieces from scrap MDF I had laying
around mor or less in a rectangle shape except the top edge was at the
10:1 angle. I then drilled holes large enough to fit black piping
through and lined up so that the outer ede of the drill bit extended
just a bit above the edge of the wood. So, the hole was open on the 10:1
edge. I then slid black piping through the holes to connect the two
sides together. Since the drill slightly extended above the top edge,
the black piping extended just a bit above the edges.
I then got 3/4" 4x4 sheet of plywood to be used as a table and
connected the sides to it, such that the black pipes went across between
the sides above the table. The piping was above the 4x4 table and the
lower one extended out farther then the front of the 4 x 4 plywood.
I made a mount for the router from a little over 3 ft long 2x4's turned
edge-wise and some hardboard across them, trying to make that as flat as
possible. The black piping was about 18" apart and the length of the
router mount was enough to be able to span across both black pipes. It
sat on top of the black pipes.
I could then place a sheet of plywood under the black piping on the 4x4
plywood sheet and clamp it down. I could then adjust the router depth
appropriately and slide the router mount up and down across the black
piping and back and forward across the edge of the panel to make an
appropirately angled cut for th escarf joint.
It was good enough that I was able to scarf ~18" wide side panels for my
Bolger SIngle-Handed Schooner. The plans call for butt joints, but I
wanted to try out this scarfing jig idea I had.
I did have some problems though:
1. The 4x4 sheet of plywood wasn't flat all the way across, which makes
it hard to get a straight even cut. It was flat enough across the middle
that my 18" wide panel got an even cut, but I wouldn't have been able to
do a 4ft wide panel and get a straight cut.
2. The black piping wasn't really stiff enough and if I wasn't careful
to avoid downward pressure on the router mount when cutting it would sag
enough to make the cut slightly uneven. So long as I didn't push too
hard though it was OK.
3. Some of the plywood sheets I was cutting wanted to lift up at the
end. I could get parts of the edge to lie flat, but some sections would
raise up a bit from the table. I used a 2 x 4 to clamp the plywood sheet
in place, but it was too far back from the cut to keep the edge down. I
modified this a bit by sliding a piece of scrap wood between the 4x4
plywood table and the plywood panel I was cutting. Then I would only
clamp the 2x4 on top of the plywood panel tight enough to hold the
plywood sheet down. This caused the plywood sheet to have curve and push
the edge flatter. This worked to hold the plywood sheet edges down for
most of the plywood sheets, but a couple still wanted to lift a bit at
the edge.
4. I found I didn't want to try and cut exactly to the edge. The plywood
would tend to chip out. I had to leave a bit of a "nib" on the edge to
prevent this chip out. It ended up not being an issue at glue time the
joints laid together pretty flat and the glue took up the ever so slight
gap due to the small "nib".
5. Trying to cut all in one pass was a bad idea. The cut was too deep
and it lead to various kinds of tear out. So, after setting the router
bit to the depth I ultimately wanted I would fix the plywood piece back
from the edge about 1.5 inches and take a cut across that. Then move the
plywood forward to about 1" to the edge and take another cut. I would
just keep moving the board forward for each successive cut. I could have
tried placing the plywood right at the edge and then making multiple
passes and changing the router bit depth in between each pass, but I was
afraid of going too deep and cutting into the 4 x 4 3/4" plywood table
portion. Making multiple passes of course made things take longer.
Anyway, it was good enough that I did successfully get all 8 of the
faces for the 4 scarf joints made by it with just a little hand touch up
on some of them. A couple came out real nice with no need for touch up
and very straight glue lines. It's unclear though that due to the issues
I had to deal with in 1-5 above that it was any faster then stacking
them up and using a hand plane.
It showed promise and I have a few ideas for improvement next time I
need to cut some plywood scarf joints:
1. Make a table that is flat as possible all the way across.
2. Use something more sturdy then MDF for the sides as when moving the
jig out of the way for storage one of the holes broke out all the way.
sigh...
3. Find something stiffer then black piping for the bars. Someone
recommended go-kart axle's but at $100.00 a pop I won't be doing that.
4. Figure out a better way to keep the panel edges flat during the cut.
This was probably the most problematic issue in getting a straight cut
and I haven't thought of a good solution yet.
Mostly it was a lot of fun to tinker with and I will try some of the
ideas above again, but it wasn't clear it saved me any time in the long
run then using a hand plane and stacking 2 or 3 panels and doing them
all at once.
Thanks
Chris Kottaridis (chriskot@...)
be easier to explain if I had a picture, but I only recently got a
digital camera and to save storage space it's all taken apart now.
Basically, I cut two identical side pieces from scrap MDF I had laying
around mor or less in a rectangle shape except the top edge was at the
10:1 angle. I then drilled holes large enough to fit black piping
through and lined up so that the outer ede of the drill bit extended
just a bit above the edge of the wood. So, the hole was open on the 10:1
edge. I then slid black piping through the holes to connect the two
sides together. Since the drill slightly extended above the top edge,
the black piping extended just a bit above the edges.
I then got 3/4" 4x4 sheet of plywood to be used as a table and
connected the sides to it, such that the black pipes went across between
the sides above the table. The piping was above the 4x4 table and the
lower one extended out farther then the front of the 4 x 4 plywood.
I made a mount for the router from a little over 3 ft long 2x4's turned
edge-wise and some hardboard across them, trying to make that as flat as
possible. The black piping was about 18" apart and the length of the
router mount was enough to be able to span across both black pipes. It
sat on top of the black pipes.
I could then place a sheet of plywood under the black piping on the 4x4
plywood sheet and clamp it down. I could then adjust the router depth
appropriately and slide the router mount up and down across the black
piping and back and forward across the edge of the panel to make an
appropirately angled cut for th escarf joint.
It was good enough that I was able to scarf ~18" wide side panels for my
Bolger SIngle-Handed Schooner. The plans call for butt joints, but I
wanted to try out this scarfing jig idea I had.
I did have some problems though:
1. The 4x4 sheet of plywood wasn't flat all the way across, which makes
it hard to get a straight even cut. It was flat enough across the middle
that my 18" wide panel got an even cut, but I wouldn't have been able to
do a 4ft wide panel and get a straight cut.
2. The black piping wasn't really stiff enough and if I wasn't careful
to avoid downward pressure on the router mount when cutting it would sag
enough to make the cut slightly uneven. So long as I didn't push too
hard though it was OK.
3. Some of the plywood sheets I was cutting wanted to lift up at the
end. I could get parts of the edge to lie flat, but some sections would
raise up a bit from the table. I used a 2 x 4 to clamp the plywood sheet
in place, but it was too far back from the cut to keep the edge down. I
modified this a bit by sliding a piece of scrap wood between the 4x4
plywood table and the plywood panel I was cutting. Then I would only
clamp the 2x4 on top of the plywood panel tight enough to hold the
plywood sheet down. This caused the plywood sheet to have curve and push
the edge flatter. This worked to hold the plywood sheet edges down for
most of the plywood sheets, but a couple still wanted to lift a bit at
the edge.
4. I found I didn't want to try and cut exactly to the edge. The plywood
would tend to chip out. I had to leave a bit of a "nib" on the edge to
prevent this chip out. It ended up not being an issue at glue time the
joints laid together pretty flat and the glue took up the ever so slight
gap due to the small "nib".
5. Trying to cut all in one pass was a bad idea. The cut was too deep
and it lead to various kinds of tear out. So, after setting the router
bit to the depth I ultimately wanted I would fix the plywood piece back
from the edge about 1.5 inches and take a cut across that. Then move the
plywood forward to about 1" to the edge and take another cut. I would
just keep moving the board forward for each successive cut. I could have
tried placing the plywood right at the edge and then making multiple
passes and changing the router bit depth in between each pass, but I was
afraid of going too deep and cutting into the 4 x 4 3/4" plywood table
portion. Making multiple passes of course made things take longer.
Anyway, it was good enough that I did successfully get all 8 of the
faces for the 4 scarf joints made by it with just a little hand touch up
on some of them. A couple came out real nice with no need for touch up
and very straight glue lines. It's unclear though that due to the issues
I had to deal with in 1-5 above that it was any faster then stacking
them up and using a hand plane.
It showed promise and I have a few ideas for improvement next time I
need to cut some plywood scarf joints:
1. Make a table that is flat as possible all the way across.
2. Use something more sturdy then MDF for the sides as when moving the
jig out of the way for storage one of the holes broke out all the way.
sigh...
3. Find something stiffer then black piping for the bars. Someone
recommended go-kart axle's but at $100.00 a pop I won't be doing that.
4. Figure out a better way to keep the panel edges flat during the cut.
This was probably the most problematic issue in getting a straight cut
and I haven't thought of a good solution yet.
Mostly it was a lot of fun to tinker with and I will try some of the
ideas above again, but it wasn't clear it saved me any time in the long
run then using a hand plane and stacking 2 or 3 panels and doing them
all at once.
Thanks
Chris Kottaridis (chriskot@...)
On Fri, 2008-02-15 at 02:13 -0800, John Kohnen wrote:
> A clever jig. But the trouble with all circular saw scarf jigs is that you
> need to use a _big_ saw for anything but real thin plywood. To do two
> sheets of 1/4" plywood at once you'd need a saw that can cut 4" deep!
>
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:19:43 -0800, Harry J wrote:
>
> > Here is a link to a plywood scarfing jig, I haven't seen this one before.
> >
> >http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/plyshophtm/scarfjig2.htm
>
A clever jig. But the trouble with all circular saw scarf jigs is that you
need to use a _big_ saw for anything but real thin plywood. To do two
sheets of 1/4" plywood at once you'd need a saw that can cut 4" deep!
need to use a _big_ saw for anything but real thin plywood. To do two
sheets of 1/4" plywood at once you'd need a saw that can cut 4" deep!
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:19:43 -0800, Harry J wrote:
> Here is a link to a plywood scarfing jig, I haven't seen this one before.
>
>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/plyshophtm/scarfjig2.htm
--
John <jkohnen@...>
To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. <George
Santayana>
Why would anyone buy anything other then carbide in a saw blade in this
day and age. LOL I think that one thing that would improve the set up
is a strip of 3/4 X 3/4" carefully placed to hold the bottom edge of
the saw base snug to the plank it sets agenst.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Chamberland" <chamberlands@...>
wrote:
day and age. LOL I think that one thing that would improve the set up
is a strip of 3/4 X 3/4" carefully placed to hold the bottom edge of
the saw base snug to the plank it sets agenst.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Chamberland" <chamberlands@...>
wrote:
>
> I have the Gougeon attachment mounted on my 45 year old Craftsman saw.
> I replaced the blade with a carbide tipped blade as recommended by
> the Gougeons. This attachment works on material under 3/8". Over that
> requires some hand work. I don't believe it is inherently more
> dangerous than any power woodworking tool. It is not necessary to
> remove the blade guard. It requires care and caution. The blade is
> most important since you are in essence making a pretty deep cut. If
> finish is important then this is one of the better ways to do it. If
> finish is secondary then anything goes. The current model is rather
> pricey I believe. The hardest part is that first cut, then you know it
> is not all that difficult.
> Bob Chamberland
I have the Gougeon attachment mounted on my 45 year old Craftsman saw.
I replaced the blade with a carbide tipped blade as recommended by
the Gougeons. This attachment works on material under 3/8". Over that
requires some hand work. I don't believe it is inherently more
dangerous than any power woodworking tool. It is not necessary to
remove the blade guard. It requires care and caution. The blade is
most important since you are in essence making a pretty deep cut. If
finish is important then this is one of the better ways to do it. If
finish is secondary then anything goes. The current model is rather
pricey I believe. The hardest part is that first cut, then you know it
is not all that difficult.
Bob Chamberland
I replaced the blade with a carbide tipped blade as recommended by
the Gougeons. This attachment works on material under 3/8". Over that
requires some hand work. I don't believe it is inherently more
dangerous than any power woodworking tool. It is not necessary to
remove the blade guard. It requires care and caution. The blade is
most important since you are in essence making a pretty deep cut. If
finish is important then this is one of the better ways to do it. If
finish is secondary then anything goes. The current model is rather
pricey I believe. The hardest part is that first cut, then you know it
is not all that difficult.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Magen" <quahaug@...> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to stick my nose in . . .
>
> I've seen several variations on this theme. In fact, I think Gougeon
> Brothers {WEST Sys.} even offered a saw attachment . . . maybe still do.
>
> In ANY form I think this type of arrangement is awkward at best and
> inherently dangerous to the user. As Jon mentioned, to do a GOOD job
a 'good
> or better' quality saw would have to be used. Also one of at least
7-1/2 in
> capacity for any 'production' work {anything over about a single 1/4in
> sheet - 'stair-stepped'}. This definitively EXCLUDES lighter 5-1/2in
and
> 'battery operated' saws.
>
> A decent quality 7-1/2in circular saw is HEAVY. Holding something
like that
> 'sideways' is tough - at a shallow angle off horizontal . . . even
tougher.
> For a few sheets - I would use a simple Jack plane. Doesn't even
have to be
> an expensive one . . . as long as the blade is SHARP '. . . this
isn't fine
> furniture !' as Joanne says. In point of fact, an epoxy/filler mix
NEEDS
> some irregularity. For more then a few, my favorite 'multi-tasking
tool' is
> a 'straight-line' belt sander. Quick, easy to handle, and you can
see what's
> happening because you are standing up and above the work.
>
> Regards and Thanks,
> Ron Magen
> Backyard Boatshop
> > 4a. Re: Scarfing link
> > Posted by: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" windyjon@... tinkerbell98683
> > Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:38 pm ((PST))
> >
> > Looks pritty slick to me. It would take a saw of a little quality to
> > get a realy good cut. Cheap saws {. . . . etc, etc}
>
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 7:35 AM, Ron Magen <quahaug@...> wrote:
I prefer instead to use the Payson Joint method, without a doubt.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/columns/magen/17/ron.cfm
Better than a conventional 'feathered' scarf joint in every way.
IMO, the Payson Joint is simpler, cheaper, faster, safer, smoother,
easier and stronger.
>Sticking my nose in too...
> I think it's time to stick my nose in . . .
I prefer instead to use the Payson Joint method, without a doubt.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/columns/magen/17/ron.cfm
Better than a conventional 'feathered' scarf joint in every way.
IMO, the Payson Joint is simpler, cheaper, faster, safer, smoother,
easier and stronger.
I am sitting in my office at the butcher block desk that I built using
re-cut 2x4's. Granted it is minimalist, sitting on a pair of 2-drawer
filing cabinets but I intend to use it for the rest of my career. I built a
sliding jig and planed the whole deal (7'x2.5') with my router. It was flat
within a 16th of inch when I finished routing. It would seem like the same
could be done for scarfing joints in plywood. The set did not have exposure
to the cutting edge and felt totally safe while working.
Caloosarat
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Ron Magen
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:35 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Scarfing link
I think it's time to stick my nose in . . .
In ANY form I think this type of arrangement is awkward at best and
inherently dangerous to the user.
I would use a simple Jack plane. Doesn't even have to be
an expensive one . . . as long as the blade is SHARP '. . . my favorite
'multi-tasking tool' is
a 'straight-line' belt sander.
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
re-cut 2x4's. Granted it is minimalist, sitting on a pair of 2-drawer
filing cabinets but I intend to use it for the rest of my career. I built a
sliding jig and planed the whole deal (7'x2.5') with my router. It was flat
within a 16th of inch when I finished routing. It would seem like the same
could be done for scarfing joints in plywood. The set did not have exposure
to the cutting edge and felt totally safe while working.
Caloosarat
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Ron Magen
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:35 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Scarfing link
I think it's time to stick my nose in . . .
In ANY form I think this type of arrangement is awkward at best and
inherently dangerous to the user.
I would use a simple Jack plane. Doesn't even have to be
an expensive one . . . as long as the blade is SHARP '. . . my favorite
'multi-tasking tool' is
a 'straight-line' belt sander.
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think it's time to stick my nose in . . .
I've seen several variations on this theme. In fact, I think Gougeon
Brothers {WEST Sys.} even offered a saw attachment . . . maybe still do.
In ANY form I think this type of arrangement is awkward at best and
inherently dangerous to the user. As Jon mentioned, to do a GOOD job a 'good
or better' quality saw would have to be used. Also one of at least 7-1/2 in
capacity for any 'production' work {anything over about a single 1/4in
sheet - 'stair-stepped'}. This definitively EXCLUDES lighter 5-1/2in and
'battery operated' saws.
A decent quality 7-1/2in circular saw is HEAVY. Holding something like that
'sideways' is tough - at a shallow angle off horizontal . . . even tougher.
For a few sheets - I would use a simple Jack plane. Doesn't even have to be
an expensive one . . . as long as the blade is SHARP '. . . this isn't fine
furniture !' as Joanne says. In point of fact, an epoxy/filler mix NEEDS
some irregularity. For more then a few, my favorite 'multi-tasking tool' is
a 'straight-line' belt sander. Quick, easy to handle, and you can see what's
happening because you are standing up and above the work.
Regards and Thanks,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
I've seen several variations on this theme. In fact, I think Gougeon
Brothers {WEST Sys.} even offered a saw attachment . . . maybe still do.
In ANY form I think this type of arrangement is awkward at best and
inherently dangerous to the user. As Jon mentioned, to do a GOOD job a 'good
or better' quality saw would have to be used. Also one of at least 7-1/2 in
capacity for any 'production' work {anything over about a single 1/4in
sheet - 'stair-stepped'}. This definitively EXCLUDES lighter 5-1/2in and
'battery operated' saws.
A decent quality 7-1/2in circular saw is HEAVY. Holding something like that
'sideways' is tough - at a shallow angle off horizontal . . . even tougher.
For a few sheets - I would use a simple Jack plane. Doesn't even have to be
an expensive one . . . as long as the blade is SHARP '. . . this isn't fine
furniture !' as Joanne says. In point of fact, an epoxy/filler mix NEEDS
some irregularity. For more then a few, my favorite 'multi-tasking tool' is
a 'straight-line' belt sander. Quick, easy to handle, and you can see what's
happening because you are standing up and above the work.
Regards and Thanks,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
> 4a. Re: Scarfing link
> Posted by: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)"windyjon@...tinkerbell98683
> Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:38 pm ((PST))
>
> Looks pritty slick to me. It would take a saw of a little quality to
> get a realy good cut. Cheap saws {. . . . etc, etc}
I would stick with the Mashita 24 tooth that Dave Carnell used to sell,
I have never had a better blade in laminates of any type.
HJ
Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
I have never had a better blade in laminates of any type.
HJ
Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
> Looks pritty slick to me. It would take a saw of a little quality to
> get a realy good cut. Cheap saws have bases that twist and flex. Any
> saw if droped or bumped of a bench can get a twisted base. A ferm
> flat ridged base is what makes it a good system for lots of scarfing.
> Most cheap saws are of a soft plastic that flexes where the base
> ataches in the front. Ball bearings are better then bushings to keep
> the blade from wobbeling. $90 and up for a good saw till droped. 24
> tooth Diablo blades would be my choice for price and quality. A
> plywood fine tooth blade would work poorly for this type of scarfing.
>
> Jon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
>> Here is a link to a plywood scarfing jig, I haven't seen this one
>>
> before.
>
>>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/plyshophtm/scarfjig2.htm
>>
>>
>> HJ
>>
>>
>
>
>
Looks pritty slick to me. It would take a saw of a little quality to
get a realy good cut. Cheap saws have bases that twist and flex. Any
saw if droped or bumped of a bench can get a twisted base. A ferm
flat ridged base is what makes it a good system for lots of scarfing.
Most cheap saws are of a soft plastic that flexes where the base
ataches in the front. Ball bearings are better then bushings to keep
the blade from wobbeling. $90 and up for a good saw till droped. 24
tooth Diablo blades would be my choice for price and quality. A
plywood fine tooth blade would work poorly for this type of scarfing.
Jon
get a realy good cut. Cheap saws have bases that twist and flex. Any
saw if droped or bumped of a bench can get a twisted base. A ferm
flat ridged base is what makes it a good system for lots of scarfing.
Most cheap saws are of a soft plastic that flexes where the base
ataches in the front. Ball bearings are better then bushings to keep
the blade from wobbeling. $90 and up for a good saw till droped. 24
tooth Diablo blades would be my choice for price and quality. A
plywood fine tooth blade would work poorly for this type of scarfing.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
> Here is a link to a plywood scarfing jig, I haven't seen this one
before.
>
>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/plyshophtm/scarfjig2.htm
>
>
> HJ
>
Here is a link to a plywood scarfing jig, I haven't seen this one before.
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/plyshophtm/scarfjig2.htm
HJ
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/plyshophtm/scarfjig2.htm
HJ