Re: Anhinga - mirage
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
what looks like a very narrow Q factor. Generally you want normal
gait width, and this device looks a lot narrower. That's a
particular problem for me since after shattering one ankle I walk
duck footed on the right side, and I need an unaturally wide Q on
that side. One problem of this system vs. a pedal based system is
that pedal trains are naturally tuneable while this system may not
be. Also cranks have the essential strength to deal with these
variation, I don't know if one could alter the Q on the Mirage and
whether the system could stand the loads if one did.
Cool deal, Ketterman designed the Mirage? Same guy who did
Trifoiler? what a genius!!
wrote:
>Hmm, one problem, maybe, mostly for me. I notice the pedal unit has
> Oops-a-daisy, wrong ones. Not
> > Some of these pics at higher res:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pdracer/files/mirage/
> of these
> >http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/curious/index.htm
>
> rather of these
>http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/projects/mirage/index.htm
>
what looks like a very narrow Q factor. Generally you want normal
gait width, and this device looks a lot narrower. That's a
particular problem for me since after shattering one ankle I walk
duck footed on the right side, and I need an unaturally wide Q on
that side. One problem of this system vs. a pedal based system is
that pedal trains are naturally tuneable while this system may not
be. Also cranks have the essential strength to deal with these
variation, I don't know if one could alter the Q on the Mirage and
whether the system could stand the loads if one did.
Cool deal, Ketterman designed the Mirage? Same guy who did
Trifoiler? what a genius!!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
a Nigel Irens vibe, that could be a long range pedal touring only boat,
but also sleep aboard. Like a Blue skies but faster and far lighter.
wrote:
>That's more like it. I have this idea of a narrow pedal tri with more
> > and converting a CLC canoe-trimaran to mirage drive.
> >http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/curious/index.htm
> Some of these pics at higher res:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pdracer/files/mirage/
>
a Nigel Irens vibe, that could be a long range pedal touring only boat,
but also sleep aboard. Like a Blue skies but faster and far lighter.
>what
> > I want something like that,... I wonder what they go for?
>
> $450 seems to be the current RRP. I seem to recall that's about
> people have mentioned before.Thanks Graeme,
>
I thought for sure I could pick one up on ebay for a few bucks, not.
I love Gartside's Blue Skies, and he will sell the plan sheet for the
drive if one wants it. It lacks the cool fit through a dagger slot
feature of the Hobie, but it seems well proven for a long voyage.
Unfortunatly fixed wouldn really work for an A. or Dovekie type deal.
http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow2.php#pedal
http://www.gartsideboats.com/blueskies.php
Sometimes one has to thank the client, and this client's next boat
was also unique and beautiful enough it made a cover on WB.
Oops-a-daisy, wrong ones. Not
http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/projects/mirage/index.htm
> Some of these pics at higher res:of these
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pdracer/files/mirage/
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/curious/index.htmrather of these
http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/projects/mirage/index.htm
> and converting a CLC canoe-trimaran to mirage drive.Some of these pics at higher res:
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/curious/index.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pdracer/files/mirage/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor"
<proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
has since built a similar 12ft model.
boating groups - a search would probably turn up something, pics too
people have mentioned before.
http://www.bizrate.com/boatskayaks_boatingequipment/oid451763171.html
http://www.water-play.com/2003Site/KY-acc_mirage_drive.shtml
Chris Ostlind wrote about their installation.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/mirage/free.cfm
Kellan Hatch has also written of mirage installation
http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/projects/mirage/index.htm
and converting a CLC canoe-trimaran to mirage drive.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/curious/index.htm
the lee immersed chine from the bottom to the side would likely make
sucking eddies form on the lee side of the chine. This flow is
countered by that arising from leeway, but when sailing with any
speed it probably is not enough to dominate or neutralise that from
the bottom. The hull may well not contribute to lift, rather the
opposite. A lengthy protruding step may rectify this by minimising
the eddying cross chine flow, and if of sufficient area may create
adequate lift to windward.
Jim Michalak, and Mason Smith wrote that the external chines on BW
allowed for easy re-entry from the water. Something like this is
probably required for Anhinga in any case, as Dave thought. The
endplate on the rudder may do, if strong enough...
Graeme
<proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
> Exactly how to build a Dovekie, or an Anhinga. I don't think thatApparently the Bufflhead hull moved through the water quite ok. Gary
> boat is as attractive, and yet it seems a better form. The A. has
> one more curve and it seems necesarry for the hoopla.
has since built a similar 12ft model.
>I love his use of a pedaldrive.He's done it on very slender hulls too. He's posted on various Yahoo!
boating groups - a search would probably turn up something, pics too
> I want something like that,... I wonder what they go for?$450 seems to be the current RRP. I seem to recall that's about what
people have mentioned before.
http://www.bizrate.com/boatskayaks_boatingequipment/oid451763171.html
http://www.water-play.com/2003Site/KY-acc_mirage_drive.shtml
Chris Ostlind wrote about their installation.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/mirage/free.cfm
Kellan Hatch has also written of mirage installation
http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/projects/mirage/index.htm
and converting a CLC canoe-trimaran to mirage drive.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/curious/index.htm
> Dave did mention in one letter that Phil had wondered whether theInteresting. From amidships aft, the way that water will flow over
> step fin would obviate the need to have a fpil, if it were long
> enough.
the lee immersed chine from the bottom to the side would likely make
sucking eddies form on the lee side of the chine. This flow is
countered by that arising from leeway, but when sailing with any
speed it probably is not enough to dominate or neutralise that from
the bottom. The hull may well not contribute to lift, rather the
opposite. A lengthy protruding step may rectify this by minimising
the eddying cross chine flow, and if of sufficient area may create
adequate lift to windward.
Jim Michalak, and Mason Smith wrote that the external chines on BW
allowed for easy re-entry from the water. Something like this is
probably required for Anhinga in any case, as Dave thought. The
endplate on the rudder may do, if strong enough...
> Graeme, I sent the photocopies to Mark, I hope he can add them toI look forward to that. Thanks very much
> the site, but I asked him to email them to you if he can't put them
> on the site.
Graeme
>rest
> Doug, Thomas,
>
> Gary Lepak's 20ft, unrockered, plumb-sided "Bufflehead" seems kinda
> like a "presto", canoe/sharpie. Strip planked round bilges, the
> sheet ply. Here's Part 4 of 4 articles (links to the others):http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/designs/lepak/bufflehead4/index.cf
>
> mThanks for bringing that to my attention, I hadn't seen it. I hadn't
been to Duckworks in a while because I thought it had gone all pay
access or something. Silly me.
Exactly how to build a Dovekie, or an Anhinga. I don't think that
boat is as attractive, and yet it seems a better form. The A. has
one more curve and it seems necesarry for the hoopla.
I love his use of a pedaldrive. I want something like that, or to
make something like that. People do make the prop style pedal
drives, but they sound a little complex if they have lubricant sumps
and all. The mirage drive would be very cool, though when they first
came out they were awful spendy. I wonder what they go for?
> > windward fin was very noticeable.Dave did mention in one letter that Phil had wondered whether the
> >
>
> Now this would be yet another Bolger version of "chine runners" ;-)
>
> Graeme
>
step fin would obviate the need to have a fpil, if it were long
enough.
Graeme, I sent the photocopies to Mark, I hope he can add them to the
site, but I asked him to email them to you if he can't put them on
the site.
> I have the feeling that Anhinga started out as a canoe and evolvedDoug, Thomas,
> int some kind of canoe sharpie hi bred.
Gary Lepak's 20ft, unrockered, plumb-sided "Bufflehead" seems kinda
like a "presto", canoe/sharpie. Strip planked round bilges, the rest
sheet ply. Here's Part 4 of 4 articles (links to the others):
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/designs/lepak/bufflehead4/index.cf
m
> Sandy bottoms left some of the plywood bottom to run wild, and thisNow this would be yet another Bolger version of "chine runners" ;-)
> provided a step that grandsons could hike out on. The owner noted
> the water ballast seemed to make little difference, but a kid on a
> windward fin was very noticeable.
>
Graeme
> I have the feeling that Anhinga started out as a canoe andevolved
> int some kind of canoe sharpie hi bred.You have a good point there. Many canoes that operate only in the
displacement mode are rounded or V'd in the bottom, but there are many
that are tranverse flat. They have minimal rocker, normally as little
as 25%, and some of the modern ones have less rocker aft than forward.
Canoes work well in the displacement mode, and under sail.
> is with high sided comings on the cockpit you can't very well set onSandy bottoms left some of the plywood bottom to run wild, and this
> deck back in that cockpit area and lean way out as ballast. I even
> coincided but feared the hull might not bE strong enough was a hiking
> board for when I have a couple grandsons along.
provided a step that grandsons could hike out on. The owner noted the
water ballast seemed to make little difference, but a kid on a windward
fin was very noticeable.
I am going to do a little devils advocate here on Anhinga. I am no
designer and surely no expert. I have sailed canoes ,sharpies and
several other kinds of boats and owned a few.
I have the feeling that Anhinga started out as a canoe and evolved
int some kind of canoe sharpie hi bred. I as a teenager owned and
sailed an 18ft Oldtown canvas over wood canoe.
She had no rocker when setting in the water with one person in her
bow and stern. Out of the water she had about an inch to inch and a half
of rocker. With little buoyancy in her ends she drooped with weight in
her. Maybe only because she was old, I can't say as she was old when I
got her.
Anhinga is flat bottomed across and for and aft except for the bow
which has rocker and I would say that is more sharpie than canoe.
Sharpies usually have rocker aft as well so she is neither one or both.
The traditional canoe has a very large radius in the chine area
where Anhinga has a sharp chine. When heeled over that sharp chine is
the same as a sharp vee bottom and as likely to let the boat roll over
on its side as drop back down on it's bottom. The round chine means the
boat is narrower in the chine area than at deck level and more likely to
drop back onto it's bottom. In other words it has some hull form
stability though maybe less than a boat with flared sides. I think all
this is more than just semantics where description is concerned,
Taking this into account Anhinga's bottom has to be wider than the
traditional canoe and more sharpie like. Of course Bolger had to
describe her as something and canoe is as good as sharpie.
This boat to my way of thinking seems to need ballast for any kind
of bad weather sailing to self right. The ballast seems a drawback
when trailering. Of course water ballast can be used but if it is done
in a box keel or double bottom the boat draws more and is much more
complicated to build.
She could be built with flared sides but then would in no way still
be a canoe but she could still be a sharpie. The disadvantage would be
slightly harder to build but much more self righting from a 90 degree
knockdown.
I like her looks from a full side or plan view and I absolutely
despise her looks from bow or stern or any angle in between. With her
square sides she she looks more like a mortor mixing box than a boat.
This does not mean I wouldn't own her or build her or love her. I
owned a really ugly boat and a really ugly dog and my whole family lived
both of them. To some degree we loved them because they were ugly.
I owned Wolf trap and thought her beautiful from all angles except
her stern view. From there she looked like somebody made a funny
looking transom and squeezed the boat in to fit it. Thank God I didn't
have to look at her from that angle much.
I am finishing up an Elver also a flat bottomed canoe now that she
is nearly finished it doesn't matter but there were times along the way
I wished I had picked something like Anhinga to build.
One thing I don't much like in Anhinga and the Elver I am building
is with high sided comings on the cockpit you can't very well set on
deck back in that cockpit area and lean way out as ballast. I even
coincided but feared the hull might not bE strong enough was a hiking
board for when I have a couple grandsons along. Loved that stuff at
their age but of course it calls for all manner of topsails and other
things set flying to justify it. As you can see I love sails and lots
of'em . I have always been of the opinion that if you have a slow boat
just add more sail and it will either go faster or sail itself under.
Some have commented on Anhinga not havening rocker aft with the
idea that she may be a little slower. With her sides in the water back
there she will not need a skeg. Great for beaching me thinks. Also if
you add the staysail as describe below it will lift the stern and let
her fly.
I would build her as a cat yawl with a slightly taller mizzen
mast than the sail is, where a light flat spinnaker like mizzen stays'l
could be set. It's easy to handle off the wind and can be raised and
dropped from the cockpit so it's a good single handers sail. I would
say she would pick up a full knot in a decent breeze and could be used
in light air up to a beam reach.
Doug
designer and surely no expert. I have sailed canoes ,sharpies and
several other kinds of boats and owned a few.
I have the feeling that Anhinga started out as a canoe and evolved
int some kind of canoe sharpie hi bred. I as a teenager owned and
sailed an 18ft Oldtown canvas over wood canoe.
She had no rocker when setting in the water with one person in her
bow and stern. Out of the water she had about an inch to inch and a half
of rocker. With little buoyancy in her ends she drooped with weight in
her. Maybe only because she was old, I can't say as she was old when I
got her.
Anhinga is flat bottomed across and for and aft except for the bow
which has rocker and I would say that is more sharpie than canoe.
Sharpies usually have rocker aft as well so she is neither one or both.
The traditional canoe has a very large radius in the chine area
where Anhinga has a sharp chine. When heeled over that sharp chine is
the same as a sharp vee bottom and as likely to let the boat roll over
on its side as drop back down on it's bottom. The round chine means the
boat is narrower in the chine area than at deck level and more likely to
drop back onto it's bottom. In other words it has some hull form
stability though maybe less than a boat with flared sides. I think all
this is more than just semantics where description is concerned,
Taking this into account Anhinga's bottom has to be wider than the
traditional canoe and more sharpie like. Of course Bolger had to
describe her as something and canoe is as good as sharpie.
This boat to my way of thinking seems to need ballast for any kind
of bad weather sailing to self right. The ballast seems a drawback
when trailering. Of course water ballast can be used but if it is done
in a box keel or double bottom the boat draws more and is much more
complicated to build.
She could be built with flared sides but then would in no way still
be a canoe but she could still be a sharpie. The disadvantage would be
slightly harder to build but much more self righting from a 90 degree
knockdown.
I like her looks from a full side or plan view and I absolutely
despise her looks from bow or stern or any angle in between. With her
square sides she she looks more like a mortor mixing box than a boat.
This does not mean I wouldn't own her or build her or love her. I
owned a really ugly boat and a really ugly dog and my whole family lived
both of them. To some degree we loved them because they were ugly.
I owned Wolf trap and thought her beautiful from all angles except
her stern view. From there she looked like somebody made a funny
looking transom and squeezed the boat in to fit it. Thank God I didn't
have to look at her from that angle much.
I am finishing up an Elver also a flat bottomed canoe now that she
is nearly finished it doesn't matter but there were times along the way
I wished I had picked something like Anhinga to build.
One thing I don't much like in Anhinga and the Elver I am building
is with high sided comings on the cockpit you can't very well set on
deck back in that cockpit area and lean way out as ballast. I even
coincided but feared the hull might not bE strong enough was a hiking
board for when I have a couple grandsons along. Loved that stuff at
their age but of course it calls for all manner of topsails and other
things set flying to justify it. As you can see I love sails and lots
of'em . I have always been of the opinion that if you have a slow boat
just add more sail and it will either go faster or sail itself under.
Some have commented on Anhinga not havening rocker aft with the
idea that she may be a little slower. With her sides in the water back
there she will not need a skeg. Great for beaching me thinks. Also if
you add the staysail as describe below it will lift the stern and let
her fly.
I would build her as a cat yawl with a slightly taller mizzen
mast than the sail is, where a light flat spinnaker like mizzen stays'l
could be set. It's easy to handle off the wind and can be raised and
dropped from the cockpit so it's a good single handers sail. I would
say she would pick up a full knot in a decent breeze and could be used
in light air up to a beam reach.
Doug