Re: [bolger] Re: Houseboat Concept 41ft x 11 ft
Krissie,
Thanks for your reply, I am not in metal construction and that was just an idea that came into my mind while reading your idea about pre fabricating in alluminum and then have a professional welder to do the welding job. I am going with wood.
Giuliano
Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
Giuliano even crapy tacks would be better then brackets and pop rivets! With a man-eater you can hog out welds in a hurry! There would also be no rivet holes that would need to be plugged. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying if you are going to do it do it right the first time. That way you will not have to have it redone.
Blessings Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: Krissie,
In my reply to Douglas the core of the discussion was to pre cut, do all the carpentry work and assembly and then to have a qualified professional aluminum welder to do the job.
This is why Instead of tacking with a mig as proposed by Douglas, I suggested the idea of the temporary brackets with pop rivets so in that way there are not junky welding spots to go over and the professional welder can weld on all clean joints.
I agree with you aluminum is a pain, My Lowe Sea Nimph is only 6 years old and You already can not count the patches of JB-Weld and aluminum epoxy putty any more. The fiberglass 17 years old Glasstron is in the back with all the crappy encapsulated wood roten. This is why from now I will only made my own boats out of wood.
Giuliano
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Thanks for your reply, I am not in metal construction and that was just an idea that came into my mind while reading your idea about pre fabricating in alluminum and then have a professional welder to do the welding job. I am going with wood.
Giuliano
Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
Giuliano even crapy tacks would be better then brackets and pop rivets! With a man-eater you can hog out welds in a hurry! There would also be no rivet holes that would need to be plugged. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying if you are going to do it do it right the first time. That way you will not have to have it redone.
Blessings Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: Krissie,
In my reply to Douglas the core of the discussion was to pre cut, do all the carpentry work and assembly and then to have a qualified professional aluminum welder to do the job.
This is why Instead of tacking with a mig as proposed by Douglas, I suggested the idea of the temporary brackets with pop rivets so in that way there are not junky welding spots to go over and the professional welder can weld on all clean joints.
I agree with you aluminum is a pain, My Lowe Sea Nimph is only 6 years old and You already can not count the patches of JB-Weld and aluminum epoxy putty any more. The fiberglass 17 years old Glasstron is in the back with all the crappy encapsulated wood roten. This is why from now I will only made my own boats out of wood.
Giuliano
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristine, Well, I'll confess that my single place high wing Lobet Ganagobie
was all wood (+a little fabric) glued together with Aerolite Glue way back
in the early 70s; so yes I am partial to wood as a building material. The
price and availability of tools and the broad range of wood species for
various aspects of the projects lends itself to amateur construction. For my
8th birthday I received Mechanix Illust. Pirogue Plans 1- 4 x16 x 1/4 sheet
of 5 ply Simpson AA Marine Douglas Fir plywood, 1 2x4 1 box of SB Boat
nails, Hammer, Stanley low angle block-plane, hand drill etc. soon I had
built a boat and I've never been the same since. Tim P Anderson .
http://www.airventuremuseum.org/collection/aircraft/Lobet-Shafor%20Ganagobie
.asp
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kristine Bennett
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 6:19 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Houseboat Concept 41ft x 11 ft
Tim do we do the same thing for an aircraft as well??? Kriss :)
Tim Anderson <lebateautim@ <mailto:lebateautim%40earthlink.net>
earthlink.net> wrote: Walk to the edge of the bayou, toss in a piece of
aluminum, a piece of steel
and a piece of plywood; then build your boat out of the one that floats. TA
_____
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
was all wood (+a little fabric) glued together with Aerolite Glue way back
in the early 70s; so yes I am partial to wood as a building material. The
price and availability of tools and the broad range of wood species for
various aspects of the projects lends itself to amateur construction. For my
8th birthday I received Mechanix Illust. Pirogue Plans 1- 4 x16 x 1/4 sheet
of 5 ply Simpson AA Marine Douglas Fir plywood, 1 2x4 1 box of SB Boat
nails, Hammer, Stanley low angle block-plane, hand drill etc. soon I had
built a boat and I've never been the same since. Tim P Anderson .
http://www.airventuremuseum.org/collection/aircraft/Lobet-Shafor%20Ganagobie
.asp
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kristine Bennett
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 6:19 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Houseboat Concept 41ft x 11 ft
Tim do we do the same thing for an aircraft as well??? Kriss :)
Tim Anderson <lebateautim@ <mailto:lebateautim%40earthlink.net>
earthlink.net> wrote: Walk to the edge of the bayou, toss in a piece of
aluminum, a piece of steel
and a piece of plywood; then build your boat out of the one that floats. TA
_____
---------------------------------
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Tim do we do the same thing for an aircraft as well??? Kriss :)
Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote: Walk to the edge of the bayou, toss in a piece of aluminum, a piece of steel
and a piece of plywood; then build your boat out of the one that floats. TA
_____
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote: Walk to the edge of the bayou, toss in a piece of aluminum, a piece of steel
and a piece of plywood; then build your boat out of the one that floats. TA
_____
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Hey Doug part of the reason you couldn't see the weld was likely the filter was to dark. I know I use to have the same thing happen to me. I went to a lighter filter and hey I could see the weld puddle.
With a good wirefeed most people can make nice looking welds. If you worked with someone that wanted to teach you they could have you welding in a few hours. The new auto darkening hoods make it so easy to tack and weld you can also adjust how dark they are as well. They are a far cry from the old hoods we learned to weld with.
Blessings Krissie
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote: Kristine I was the one talking about buying a welder and tacking
things together. But then to hire a welder to do the welding. I would
never suggest that someone bungle their way through welding his own
boat. The only reason I suggested aluminum is be cause all his wooden
boat building is much the same has working with aluminum where sawing
and cutting are concerned.
The strength of tack welds are only important in that they have to
be strong enough to hold until the seams are welded.
I am a machinist and a welder I am not a good welder not because I
don't know how but because I just can't make a good weld. I learned to
weld as a teen ager in the shipyard and after going through six weeks of
welding two times ina row the instructor told me I would never be a
welder as long as I had a hole in my you know what. Never could see
the puddle. I ran a machine shop and a welding shop as well as a
blacksmith shop all in the same buisness so I understand welding.
Doug
---------------------------------
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With a good wirefeed most people can make nice looking welds. If you worked with someone that wanted to teach you they could have you welding in a few hours. The new auto darkening hoods make it so easy to tack and weld you can also adjust how dark they are as well. They are a far cry from the old hoods we learned to weld with.
Blessings Krissie
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote: Kristine I was the one talking about buying a welder and tacking
things together. But then to hire a welder to do the welding. I would
never suggest that someone bungle their way through welding his own
boat. The only reason I suggested aluminum is be cause all his wooden
boat building is much the same has working with aluminum where sawing
and cutting are concerned.
The strength of tack welds are only important in that they have to
be strong enough to hold until the seams are welded.
I am a machinist and a welder I am not a good welder not because I
don't know how but because I just can't make a good weld. I learned to
weld as a teen ager in the shipyard and after going through six weeks of
welding two times ina row the instructor told me I would never be a
welder as long as I had a hole in my you know what. Never could see
the puddle. I ran a machine shop and a welding shop as well as a
blacksmith shop all in the same buisness so I understand welding.
Doug
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Giuliano even crapy tacks would be better then brackets and pop rivets! With a man-eater you can hog out welds in a hurry! There would also be no rivet holes that would need to be plugged. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying if you are going to do it do it right the first time. That way you will not have to have it redone.
Blessings Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: Krissie,
In my reply to Douglas the core of the discussion was to pre cut, do all the carpentry work and assembly and then to have a qualified professional aluminum welder to do the job.
This is why Instead of tacking with a mig as proposed by Douglas, I suggested the idea of the temporary brackets with pop rivets so in that way there are not junky welding spots to go over and the professional welder can weld on all clean joints.
I agree with you aluminum is a pain, My Lowe Sea Nimph is only 6 years old and You already can not count the patches of JB-Weld and aluminum epoxy putty any more. The fiberglass 17 years old Glasstron is in the back with all the crappy encapsulated wood roten. This is why from now I will only made my own boats out of wood.
Giuliano
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Blessings Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: Krissie,
In my reply to Douglas the core of the discussion was to pre cut, do all the carpentry work and assembly and then to have a qualified professional aluminum welder to do the job.
This is why Instead of tacking with a mig as proposed by Douglas, I suggested the idea of the temporary brackets with pop rivets so in that way there are not junky welding spots to go over and the professional welder can weld on all clean joints.
I agree with you aluminum is a pain, My Lowe Sea Nimph is only 6 years old and You already can not count the patches of JB-Weld and aluminum epoxy putty any more. The fiberglass 17 years old Glasstron is in the back with all the crappy encapsulated wood roten. This is why from now I will only made my own boats out of wood.
Giuliano
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Walk to the edge of the bayou, toss in a piece of aluminum, a piece of steel
and a piece of plywood; then build your boat out of the one that floats. TA
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kristine Bennett
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 8:44 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Houseboat Concept 41ft x 11 ft
I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the idea of
using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I worked for two
shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the northwest. Some of
the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know you
would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no welding of
Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of Aluminum take the
time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or miss. Welds in aluminum can
look great but be very brittle, crack and leak. It's not a good idea to try
and teach yourself to weld aluminum. I went to school to learn the right way
to weld steel and then moved on to aluminum.
What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not going
to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp AC-DC TIG
welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler. Then you need to
have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the welder. And then you
are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and forget welding over head or any
other way other then flat.
The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little
handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will need
to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool unit. You can
use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools when you are welding
your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are changing them things are cooling.
At every stop and start you have a chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of
places use a spoolpak with the wire in a 200 lb drum.
In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of skill to
get things right.
OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing stick
welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK you want to
weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now get away with a 200
or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield. it welds hotter then hard
wire so you are less likely to have leaks at your stops and starts on your
hull plating.
To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed with
weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready for welding
and repainting.
I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't have to
worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion control as well.
I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the way through. The area
what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a 4 foot x 6 foot area and
this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or 6 years old at the time.
Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their
weaknesses as well.
One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 for
stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones you can
find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel welding wire
that can be used.
But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the grade
of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the fillers. I know
a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes it's like gang
busters!
Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy paints.
I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as well. then
sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building has a lot going
for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us that live up north.
Blessings all
Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. <mailto:ggboat1%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum angle bars or
small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent to the desired
angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the welder can start
welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill off the rivets, remove
the brackets and keep going with the welding.
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the
same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop
rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside
and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced
chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in
between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the
inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed
for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right
and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was
reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the
feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may
be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates
during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not
occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction
of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@comcast. <mailto:Dougpol1%40comcast.net> net>
wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
---------------------------------
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Blockbuster Total Access now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and a piece of plywood; then build your boat out of the one that floats. TA
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kristine Bennett
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 8:44 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Houseboat Concept 41ft x 11 ft
I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the idea of
using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I worked for two
shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the northwest. Some of
the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know you
would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no welding of
Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of Aluminum take the
time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or miss. Welds in aluminum can
look great but be very brittle, crack and leak. It's not a good idea to try
and teach yourself to weld aluminum. I went to school to learn the right way
to weld steel and then moved on to aluminum.
What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not going
to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp AC-DC TIG
welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler. Then you need to
have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the welder. And then you
are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and forget welding over head or any
other way other then flat.
The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little
handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will need
to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool unit. You can
use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools when you are welding
your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are changing them things are cooling.
At every stop and start you have a chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of
places use a spoolpak with the wire in a 200 lb drum.
In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of skill to
get things right.
OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing stick
welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK you want to
weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now get away with a 200
or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield. it welds hotter then hard
wire so you are less likely to have leaks at your stops and starts on your
hull plating.
To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed with
weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready for welding
and repainting.
I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't have to
worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion control as well.
I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the way through. The area
what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a 4 foot x 6 foot area and
this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or 6 years old at the time.
Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their
weaknesses as well.
One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 for
stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones you can
find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel welding wire
that can be used.
But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the grade
of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the fillers. I know
a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes it's like gang
busters!
Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy paints.
I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as well. then
sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building has a lot going
for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us that live up north.
Blessings all
Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. <mailto:ggboat1%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum angle bars or
small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent to the desired
angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the welder can start
welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill off the rivets, remove
the brackets and keep going with the welding.
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the
same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop
rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside
and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced
chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in
between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the
inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed
for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right
and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was
reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the
feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may
be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates
during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not
occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction
of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@comcast. <mailto:Dougpol1%40comcast.net> net>
wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
---------------------------------
Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of
Blockbuster Total Access now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wasn't disagreeing with you on the welding. I do disagree with the
idea that aluminum is any problem at all either in construction or in
maintenance or use. All you do is paint them and they take care of
themselves. I have built three alum. boats one was mine and the two
others were owned by others they are all in the neighbor hood of 30
years old. Electrologist is the only problem with aluminum. Corrosion
is almost non existent. Yes wiring electricals and disimular metals
have to be kept straight but that is more a mater of Knowlege and less
a matter of work.
Doug
Douglas Pollard wrote:
idea that aluminum is any problem at all either in construction or in
maintenance or use. All you do is paint them and they take care of
themselves. I have built three alum. boats one was mine and the two
others were owned by others they are all in the neighbor hood of 30
years old. Electrologist is the only problem with aluminum. Corrosion
is almost non existent. Yes wiring electricals and disimular metals
have to be kept straight but that is more a mater of Knowlege and less
a matter of work.
Doug
Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> Kristine I was the one talking about buying a welder and tacking
> things together. But then to hire a welder to do the welding. I would
> never suggest that someone bungle their way through welding his own
> boat. The only reason I suggested aluminum is be cause all his wooden
> boat building is much the same has working with aluminum where sawing
> and cutting are concerned.
> The strength of tack welds are only important in that they have to
> be strong enough to hold until the seams are welded.
> I am a machinist and a welder I am not a good welder not because I
> don't know how but because I just can't make a good weld. I learned to
> weld as a teen ager in the shipyard and after going through six weeks of
> welding two times ina row the instructor told me I would never be a
> welder as long as I had a hole in my you know what. Never could see
> the puddle. I ran a machine shop and a welding shop as well as a
> blacksmith shop all in the same buisness so I understand welding.
> Doug
>
> Kristine Bennett wrote:
> >
> > I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the
> > idea of using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I
> > worked for two shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the
> > northwest. Some of the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
> >
> > I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know
> > you would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no
> > welding of Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of
> > Aluminum take the time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or
> > miss. Welds in aluminum can look great but be very brittle, crack and
> > leak. It's not a good idea to try and teach yourself to weld aluminum.
> > I went to school to learn the right way to weld steel and then moved
> > on to aluminum.
> >
> > What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not
> > going to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp
> > AC-DC TIG welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler.
> > Then you need to have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the
> > welder. And then you are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and
> > forget welding over head or any other way other then flat.
> >
> > The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little
> > handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will
> > need to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool
> > unit. You can use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools
> > when you are welding your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are
> > changing them things are cooling. At every stop and start you have a
> > chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of places use a spoolpak with the
> > wire in a 200 lb drum.
> >
> > In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of
> > skill to get things right.
> >
> > OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing
> > stick welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK
> > you want to weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now
> > get away with a 200 or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield.
> > it welds hotter then hard wire so you are less likely to have leaks at
> > your stops and starts on your hull plating.
> >
> > To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed
> > with weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready
> > for welding and repainting.
> >
> > I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't
> > have to worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion
> > control as well. I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the
> > way through. The area what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a
> > 4 foot x 6 foot area and this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or
> > 6 years old at the time.
> >
> > Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their
> > weaknesses as well.
> >
> > One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018
> > for stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones
> > you can find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel
> > welding wire that can be used.
> >
> > But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the
> > grade of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the
> > fillers. I know a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes
> > it's like gang busters!
> >
> > Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy
> > paints. I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as
> > well. then sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building
> > has a lot going for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us
> > that live up north.
> >
> > Blessings all
> > Krissie
> >
> > Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...<mailto:ggboat1%40yahoo.com>
> <mailto:ggboat1%40yahoo.com>>
> > wrote: You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum
> > angle bars or small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent
> > to the desired angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the
> > welder can start welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill
> > off the rivets, remove the brackets and keep going with the welding.
> > You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum
> > of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines
> > with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint
> > on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide
> > for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so
> > there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To
> > prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be
> > more than enough.
> > With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if
> > needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly
> > till is right and pop another rivet.
> >
> > Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I
> > was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
> >
> > One think I will research before starting a similar project is the
> > feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There
> > may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the
> > plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that
> > may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion
> > and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
> >
> > Giuliano
> >
> > Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...
> <mailto:Dougpol1%40comcast.net> <mailto:Dougpol1%40comcast.net>>
> > wrote:
> > I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
> > but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
> > maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
> > wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
> > aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
> > wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
> > plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
> > An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
> > years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
> > an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
> > they seem to trust it more.
> > The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
> > bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
> > creative there.
> > If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
> > tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
> > that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
> > size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
> > the water line.
> > This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
> > could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
> > The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
> > difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
> > Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
> > familiar for a woodworker.
> > Doug
> >
> > Bruce Hallman wrote:
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of
> > Blockbuster Total Access now
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
Kristine I was the one talking about buying a welder and tacking
things together. But then to hire a welder to do the welding. I would
never suggest that someone bungle their way through welding his own
boat. The only reason I suggested aluminum is be cause all his wooden
boat building is much the same has working with aluminum where sawing
and cutting are concerned.
The strength of tack welds are only important in that they have to
be strong enough to hold until the seams are welded.
I am a machinist and a welder I am not a good welder not because I
don't know how but because I just can't make a good weld. I learned to
weld as a teen ager in the shipyard and after going through six weeks of
welding two times ina row the instructor told me I would never be a
welder as long as I had a hole in my you know what. Never could see
the puddle. I ran a machine shop and a welding shop as well as a
blacksmith shop all in the same buisness so I understand welding.
Doug
Kristine Bennett wrote:
things together. But then to hire a welder to do the welding. I would
never suggest that someone bungle their way through welding his own
boat. The only reason I suggested aluminum is be cause all his wooden
boat building is much the same has working with aluminum where sawing
and cutting are concerned.
The strength of tack welds are only important in that they have to
be strong enough to hold until the seams are welded.
I am a machinist and a welder I am not a good welder not because I
don't know how but because I just can't make a good weld. I learned to
weld as a teen ager in the shipyard and after going through six weeks of
welding two times ina row the instructor told me I would never be a
welder as long as I had a hole in my you know what. Never could see
the puddle. I ran a machine shop and a welding shop as well as a
blacksmith shop all in the same buisness so I understand welding.
Doug
Kristine Bennett wrote:
>
> I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the
> idea of using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I
> worked for two shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the
> northwest. Some of the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
>
> I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know
> you would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no
> welding of Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of
> Aluminum take the time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or
> miss. Welds in aluminum can look great but be very brittle, crack and
> leak. It's not a good idea to try and teach yourself to weld aluminum.
> I went to school to learn the right way to weld steel and then moved
> on to aluminum.
>
> What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not
> going to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp
> AC-DC TIG welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler.
> Then you need to have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the
> welder. And then you are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and
> forget welding over head or any other way other then flat.
>
> The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little
> handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will
> need to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool
> unit. You can use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools
> when you are welding your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are
> changing them things are cooling. At every stop and start you have a
> chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of places use a spoolpak with the
> wire in a 200 lb drum.
>
> In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of
> skill to get things right.
>
> OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing
> stick welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK
> you want to weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now
> get away with a 200 or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield.
> it welds hotter then hard wire so you are less likely to have leaks at
> your stops and starts on your hull plating.
>
> To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed
> with weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready
> for welding and repainting.
>
> I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't
> have to worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion
> control as well. I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the
> way through. The area what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a
> 4 foot x 6 foot area and this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or
> 6 years old at the time.
>
> Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their
> weaknesses as well.
>
> One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018
> for stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones
> you can find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel
> welding wire that can be used.
>
> But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the
> grade of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the
> fillers. I know a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes
> it's like gang busters!
>
> Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy
> paints. I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as
> well. then sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building
> has a lot going for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us
> that live up north.
>
> Blessings all
> Krissie
>
> Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...<mailto:ggboat1%40yahoo.com>>
> wrote: You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum
> angle bars or small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent
> to the desired angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the
> welder can start welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill
> off the rivets, remove the brackets and keep going with the welding.
> You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum
> of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines
> with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint
> on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide
> for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so
> there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To
> prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be
> more than enough.
> With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if
> needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly
> till is right and pop another rivet.
>
> Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I
> was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
>
> One think I will research before starting a similar project is the
> feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There
> may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the
> plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that
> may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion
> and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
>
> Giuliano
>
> Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...<mailto:Dougpol1%40comcast.net>>
> wrote:
> I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
> but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
> maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
> wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
> aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
> wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
> plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
> An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
> years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
> an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
> they seem to trust it more.
> The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
> bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
> creative there.
> If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
> tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
> that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
> size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
> the water line.
> This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
> could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
> The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
> difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
> Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
> familiar for a woodworker.
> Doug
>
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------
> Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of
> Blockbuster Total Access now
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Krissie,
In my reply to Douglas the core of the discussion was to pre cut, do all the carpentry work and assembly and then to have a qualified professional aluminum welder to do the job.
This is why Instead of tacking with a mig as proposed by Douglas, I suggested the idea of the temporary brackets with pop rivets so in that way there are not junky welding spots to go over and the professional welder can weld on all clean joints.
I agree with you aluminum is a pain, My Lowe Sea Nimph is only 6 years old and You already can not count the patches of JB-Weld and aluminum epoxy putty any more. The fiberglass 17 years old Glasstron is in the back with all the crappy encapsulated wood roten. This is why from now I will only made my own boats out of wood.
Giuliano
Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the idea of using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I worked for two shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the northwest. Some of the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know you would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no welding of Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of Aluminum take the time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or miss. Welds in aluminum can look great but be very brittle, crack and leak. It's not a good idea to try and teach yourself to weld aluminum. I went to school to learn the right way to weld steel and then moved on to aluminum.
What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not going to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp AC-DC TIG welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler. Then you need to have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the welder. And then you are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and forget welding over head or any other way other then flat.
The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will need to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool unit. You can use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools when you are welding your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are changing them things are cooling. At every stop and start you have a chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of places use a spoolpak with the wire in a 200 lb drum.
In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of skill to get things right.
OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing stick welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK you want to weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now get away with a 200 or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield. it welds hotter then hard wire so you are less likely to have leaks at your stops and starts on your hull plating.
To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed with weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready for welding and repainting.
I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't have to worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion control as well. I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the way through. The area what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a 4 foot x 6 foot area and this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or 6 years old at the time.
Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their weaknesses as well.
One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 for stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones you can find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel welding wire that can be used.
But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the grade of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the fillers. I know a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes it's like gang busters!
Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy paints. I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as well. then sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building has a lot going for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us that live up north.
Blessings all
Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum angle bars or small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent to the desired angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the welder can start welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill off the rivets, remove the brackets and keep going with the welding.
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
---------------------------------
Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In my reply to Douglas the core of the discussion was to pre cut, do all the carpentry work and assembly and then to have a qualified professional aluminum welder to do the job.
This is why Instead of tacking with a mig as proposed by Douglas, I suggested the idea of the temporary brackets with pop rivets so in that way there are not junky welding spots to go over and the professional welder can weld on all clean joints.
I agree with you aluminum is a pain, My Lowe Sea Nimph is only 6 years old and You already can not count the patches of JB-Weld and aluminum epoxy putty any more. The fiberglass 17 years old Glasstron is in the back with all the crappy encapsulated wood roten. This is why from now I will only made my own boats out of wood.
Giuliano
Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the idea of using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I worked for two shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the northwest. Some of the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know you would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no welding of Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of Aluminum take the time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or miss. Welds in aluminum can look great but be very brittle, crack and leak. It's not a good idea to try and teach yourself to weld aluminum. I went to school to learn the right way to weld steel and then moved on to aluminum.
What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not going to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp AC-DC TIG welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler. Then you need to have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the welder. And then you are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and forget welding over head or any other way other then flat.
The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will need to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool unit. You can use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools when you are welding your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are changing them things are cooling. At every stop and start you have a chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of places use a spoolpak with the wire in a 200 lb drum.
In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of skill to get things right.
OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing stick welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK you want to weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now get away with a 200 or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield. it welds hotter then hard wire so you are less likely to have leaks at your stops and starts on your hull plating.
To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed with weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready for welding and repainting.
I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't have to worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion control as well. I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the way through. The area what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a 4 foot x 6 foot area and this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or 6 years old at the time.
Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their weaknesses as well.
One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 for stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones you can find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel welding wire that can be used.
But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the grade of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the fillers. I know a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes it's like gang busters!
Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy paints. I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as well. then sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building has a lot going for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us that live up north.
Blessings all
Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum angle bars or small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent to the desired angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the welder can start welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill off the rivets, remove the brackets and keep going with the welding.
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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Hear! Hear!
Great response. I was pondering something like it, but you said it much
better than I could have. That is the advantage of first-hand experience.
V/R
Chris
Kristine Bennett wrote:
Great response. I was pondering something like it, but you said it much
better than I could have. That is the advantage of first-hand experience.
V/R
Chris
Kristine Bennett wrote:
> I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the idea of using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I worked for two shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the northwest. Some of the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
>
>
>
I have half looked at the posts about the Housebarge, then I saw the idea of using welded Steel and then welded Aluminum. In years past I worked for two shops that built Aluminum and Steel craft, here in the northwest. Some of the ideas that are being kicked around scare me.
I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know you would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no welding of Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of Aluminum take the time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or miss. Welds in aluminum can look great but be very brittle, crack and leak. It's not a good idea to try and teach yourself to weld aluminum. I went to school to learn the right way to weld steel and then moved on to aluminum.
What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not going to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp AC-DC TIG welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler. Then you need to have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the welder. And then you are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and forget welding over head or any other way other then flat.
The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will need to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool unit. You can use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools when you are welding your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are changing them things are cooling. At every stop and start you have a chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of places use a spoolpak with the wire in a 200 lb drum.
In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of skill to get things right.
OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing stick welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK you want to weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now get away with a 200 or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield. it welds hotter then hard wire so you are less likely to have leaks at your stops and starts on your hull plating.
To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed with weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready for welding and repainting.
I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't have to worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion control as well. I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the way through. The area what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a 4 foot x 6 foot area and this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or 6 years old at the time.
Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their weaknesses as well.
One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 for stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones you can find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel welding wire that can be used.
But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the grade of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the fillers. I know a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes it's like gang busters!
Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy paints. I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as well. then sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building has a lot going for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us that live up north.
Blessings all
Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum angle bars or small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent to the desired angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the welder can start welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill off the rivets, remove the brackets and keep going with the welding.
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I had to pass a USCG weld test before I could do any welding. I know you would be doing it DIY and would likely have done little to no welding of Aluminum. If any of you think you want to build it out of Aluminum take the time to learn to weld the right way, not hit or miss. Welds in aluminum can look great but be very brittle, crack and leak. It's not a good idea to try and teach yourself to weld aluminum. I went to school to learn the right way to weld steel and then moved on to aluminum.
What kind of welder are you going to need? A cheap TIG welder is not going to do it. You better plan to spend the money to get a 300 amp AC-DC TIG welder or BIGGER. Then add a water cooled torch and cooler. Then you need to have the Argon and the things to hook that up to the welder. And then you are going to be welding very slowly. Oh and forget welding over head or any other way other then flat.
The other way to go is with a wirefeed or MIG ones again your little handyman units are not even going to cut it even for tacking! You will need to look at a 250 to 300 amp unit, then add a push-pull spool unit. You can use a 1lb spool gun but you are always changing spools when you are welding your seams. NOt good seeing how as you are changing them things are cooling. At every stop and start you have a chance of leaks. Thats why a lot of places use a spoolpak with the wire in a 200 lb drum.
In short it takes a lot of heat to weld Aluminum, and a fair bit of skill to get things right.
OK so lets look at Steel. You can weld steel with a buzz box doing stick welding. Take a couple of classes and you can get good at it. OK you want to weld faster then stick. OK go to a MIG unit you can now get away with a 200 or 250 amp unit. Myself I would use dual shield. it welds hotter then hard wire so you are less likely to have leaks at your stops and starts on your hull plating.
To control your rust you have all your steel Wheelabraited and primed with weld through primer. So all the mill scale is gone and its ready for welding and repainting.
I know a lot of people think aluminum is the way to go and you don't have to worry about corrosion, WRONG you still have to do corrosion control as well. I have seen aluminum hull plating corroded all the way through. The area what we ended up cutting out and replacing was a 4 foot x 6 foot area and this was in a 32 foot boat. The boat was 5 or 6 years old at the time.
Both steel and aluminum have their strong points they also have their weaknesses as well.
One other thing when welding steel you can use 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 for stick welding. I know I have missed a few, but these are the ones you can find most any where. And there are any number of mild-steel welding wire that can be used.
But with aluminum you need to use the right filler rod or wire for the grade of aluminum you are using there is no mixing or matching the fillers. I know a few that have, but in the end when corrosion strikes it's like gang busters!
Myself I would look at fiberglass and a foam core or steel and epoxy paints. I also don't see anything wrong with a wood-foam-wood hull as well. then sheath it in epoxy and glass. This last style of building has a lot going for it. Namely you have a warmer boat for those of us that live up north.
Blessings all
Krissie
Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote: You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum angle bars or small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent to the desired angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the welder can start welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill off the rivets, remove the brackets and keep going with the welding.
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You may also consider to use some small sections of aluminum angle bars or small mending plates made off the same aluminum and bent to the desired angle and fastened with aluminum pop rivets. Then the welder can start welding and as he approaches the brackets, just drill off the rivets, remove the brackets and keep going with the welding.
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You may also have a fabrication shop to bend some strips of aluminum of the same angle of the chines and attach the planking to the cines with pop rivets and then the welder can fill the middle of the joint on the outside and the two edges on the inside. this will also provide for a reinforced chine. Just keep the moulded angle to a minimum so there will be no voids in between the planking and the angle strip.(To prevent corrosion from the inside out) Probably 5/8" x 5/8" will be more than enough.
With this procedure you will be also able to make some adjustment if needed for a proper fairing (just drill out the rivet, move slightly till is right and pop another rivet.
Please note, this one is just an idea that came into my mind while I was reading your post and not an experienced construction method.
One think I will research before starting a similar project is the feasibility to pre assemble all the hull and then start welding. There may be some problems caused by the expansion and contraction of the plates during the welding with consequent warping and distortions that may not occour while a hull is welded step by step and the expansion and contraction of the metal have a place to move to.
Giuliano
Douglas Pollard <Dougpol1@...> wrote:
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>---------------------------------
> > Although steel prices this moment are very high, I'd be tempted to
> > have the basic hull rendered in steel, and professionally welded, then
> > finish her/it (is a barge a she?) out in wood.
>
> Part of what is fun about doing Free!Ship renderings of the Bolger
> designs, is that in the process of working out the 3D shape from the
> 2D diagrams, you often get insight into the PCB thought process. For
> instance, remarkably often, bulkheads, and other pieces are put right
> on "whole foot" station lines. (In otherwords, I am guessing he works
> with a scale in hand, or more likely he works out the layouts with
> tracing paper over a '1 foot scale grid')
>
> Another common thing with Bolger designs is that he is constantly
> working out most efficient use of materials. In the case of this
> housebarge it is shaped kind of like a giant Diablo, but with the keel
> panel and bilge panels made of full 4 foot width strips of plywood,
> and the side panels are 4 foot, trimmed a bit to give the smooth sweep
> to the sheerline. In short, the planking of this boat is done with 4
> foot wide planks. (with almost no sawing!) I think with a little
> fore though, it also could be built entirely in an upright position,
> without a flip, by tipping it side to side from one bilge strake to
> the other.
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Howard Stephenson
<howardstephenson@...> wrote:
I think the easiest way to build it would be to build the center keel
strake upside down, probably PCB would specifiy 1 1/2" laminated from
three courses of 1/2" plywood. Put on a thick layer of glass and
epoxy, and then flip the keel piece. Then jack the keel piece to the
right curve, and install the frames. To that, lift up the bilge
panels (which also were glassed and epoxied before a flip) Anybody's
guess as PCB's spec, but perhaps 1" thick? Or 1/2" would probably
work fine for the bilge panels and all the other plywood.
<howardstephenson@...> wrote:
>Yes, the PCB write up says the same.
> In tidal waters the same could probably be done to remove marine
> growth, rather than slipping her. What's the word -- careening?
>
>
> Howard
I think the easiest way to build it would be to build the center keel
strake upside down, probably PCB would specifiy 1 1/2" laminated from
three courses of 1/2" plywood. Put on a thick layer of glass and
epoxy, and then flip the keel piece. Then jack the keel piece to the
right curve, and install the frames. To that, lift up the bilge
panels (which also were glassed and epoxied before a flip) Anybody's
guess as PCB's spec, but perhaps 1" thick? Or 1/2" would probably
work fine for the bilge panels and all the other plywood.
In tidal waters the same could probably be done to remove marine
growth, rather than slipping her. What's the word -- careening?
Howard
growth, rather than slipping her. What's the word -- careening?
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>I think with a little
> fore though, it also could be built entirely in an upright position,
> without a flip, by tipping it side to side from one bilge strake to
> the other.
>
One more advantage in aluminum is that it does not have to be protected
on the inside at all. Steel needs to be probably sand blasted inside and
out and some kind of coating applied. Steel boats usually rust out from
the inside.
Doug
Douglas Pollard wrote:
on the inside at all. Steel needs to be probably sand blasted inside and
out and some kind of coating applied. Steel boats usually rust out from
the inside.
Doug
Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
> but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
> maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
> wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
> aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
> wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
> plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
> An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
> years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
> an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
> they seem to trust it more.
> The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
> bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
> creative there.
> If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
> tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
> that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
> size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
> the water line.
> This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
> could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
> The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
> difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
> Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
> familiar for a woodworker.
> Doug
>
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
> >
> > > Although steel prices this moment are very high, I'd be tempted to
> > > have the basic hull rendered in steel, and professionally welded, then
> > > finish her/it (is a barge a she?) out in wood.
> >
> > Part of what is fun about doing Free!Ship renderings of the Bolger
> > designs, is that in the process of working out the 3D shape from the
> > 2D diagrams, you often get insight into the PCB thought process. For
> > instance, remarkably often, bulkheads, and other pieces are put right
> > on "whole foot" station lines. (In otherwords, I am guessing he works
> > with a scale in hand, or more likely he works out the layouts with
> > tracing paper over a '1 foot scale grid')
> >
> > Another common thing with Bolger designs is that he is constantly
> > working out most efficient use of materials. In the case of this
> > housebarge it is shaped kind of like a giant Diablo, but with the keel
> > panel and bilge panels made of full 4 foot width strips of plywood,
> > and the side panels are 4 foot, trimmed a bit to give the smooth sweep
> > to the sheerline. In short, the planking of this boat is done with 4
> > foot wide planks. (with almost no sawing!) I think with a little
> > fore though, it also could be built entirely in an upright position,
> > without a flip, by tipping it side to side from one bilge strake to
> > the other.
> >
> >
>
>
I would also concider aluminum. It may be high priced by the pound
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
but you will use less of although it will likely be more costly but
maybe not that much. The other big thing is if you have built any
wooden boats you already have all the tools you need to build in
aluminum. With a table saw , router, skill saw and maybe an electric
wood plane you can build any boat in aluminum that you can build in
plywood with maybe a few exceptions. Have'nt really thought that out.
An aluminum boat will likely sell for a heck of a lot more after 20
years than a steel one. The average surveyer may not want to survey
an old steel boat but even though they may know less about aluminum
they seem to trust it more.
The only real down side I know of in aluminum is the problem of
bottom paint with the restrictions on tributal tine you may have to be
creative there.
If I were to build in aluminum I would by a cheap Tig welder and
tack it all together myself with a little practice anyone can do
that. Then the pro welder will weld right over your tacks. A boat that
size I would likely plate in 1/4 inch on the bottom and 3/16 on above
the water line.
This heavy plating will make getting fair lines much easier and
could be backed up with pipe stringers which a fairly cheap.
The money saved on building yourself will will likelt pay the
difference in cost of aluminum over steel ten times over.
Of course you can build yourself in steel but that is much less
familiar for a woodworker.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> > Although steel prices this moment are very high, I'd be tempted to
> > have the basic hull rendered in steel, and professionally welded, then
> > finish her/it (is a barge a she?) out in wood.
>
> Part of what is fun about doing Free!Ship renderings of the Bolger
> designs, is that in the process of working out the 3D shape from the
> 2D diagrams, you often get insight into the PCB thought process. For
> instance, remarkably often, bulkheads, and other pieces are put right
> on "whole foot" station lines. (In otherwords, I am guessing he works
> with a scale in hand, or more likely he works out the layouts with
> tracing paper over a '1 foot scale grid')
>
> Another common thing with Bolger designs is that he is constantly
> working out most efficient use of materials. In the case of this
> housebarge it is shaped kind of like a giant Diablo, but with the keel
> panel and bilge panels made of full 4 foot width strips of plywood,
> and the side panels are 4 foot, trimmed a bit to give the smooth sweep
> to the sheerline. In short, the planking of this boat is done with 4
> foot wide planks. (with almost no sawing!) I think with a little
> fore though, it also could be built entirely in an upright position,
> without a flip, by tipping it side to side from one bilge strake to
> the other.
>
>
> Although steel prices this moment are very high, I'd be tempted toPart of what is fun about doing Free!Ship renderings of the Bolger
> have the basic hull rendered in steel, and professionally welded, then
> finish her/it (is a barge a she?) out in wood.
designs, is that in the process of working out the 3D shape from the
2D diagrams, you often get insight into the PCB thought process. For
instance, remarkably often, bulkheads, and other pieces are put right
on "whole foot" station lines. (In otherwords, I am guessing he works
with a scale in hand, or more likely he works out the layouts with
tracing paper over a '1 foot scale grid')
Another common thing with Bolger designs is that he is constantly
working out most efficient use of materials. In the case of this
housebarge it is shaped kind of like a giant Diablo, but with the keel
panel and bilge panels made of full 4 foot width strips of plywood,
and the side panels are 4 foot, trimmed a bit to give the smooth sweep
to the sheerline. In short, the planking of this boat is done with 4
foot wide planks. (with almost no sawing!) I think with a little
fore though, it also could be built entirely in an upright position,
without a flip, by tipping it side to side from one bilge strake to
the other.
> > Like Illinois, a big barge disguised to look like a boat. 41 feet byAlthough steel prices this moment are very high, I'd be tempted to
> > 11 feet. Unlike Illinois, it has no power (which avoid taxes) and is
> > moved by a small yawlboat or allowed to dry out on the tide flats.
> >
have the basic hull rendered in steel, and professionally welded, then
finish her/it (is a barge a she?) out in wood.
I would suppose the Yawl Boat could/would be the one designed for the
big Alaskan catamaran. The name of the cat escapes me at the moment.
The yawl boat was designed for conventional outboard or an industrial
air cooled engine attached to an outdrive. The latter desirable for
the high output of its alternator. But I would probably just adapt a
plastic/glass I/O powered open bow boat powered by a v6 or v8, with
the bow area strengthened and the drive repropped for pushing the
barge around. There is a million of them available out there for much
less than one could build something.
It would be necessary to create some remote control scheme.
Minimally, the 'skipper' would command from the barge's bridge via
walkie talkie to a mate in the yawl boat. Duty in the yawl while
pushing would be noisy, and offer a poor view of the world.
Bolger also has a design somewhere for a semi-rigid link between the
yawl and the main boat.
Ugly word, barge. No nice connotations. I've always liked Illinois
and never thought of it as a barge. So if I had an Illinois, I'd
likely over power it and misuse it as a coastal cruiser. Just what
Bolger warns about in the essay.
Nice rendition as usual, Bruce. "Barge Houseboat", from Boats with an
Open Mind, is very similar in concept and styling, although only 25'6"
x 7'10".
Regarding lumber required: John Teale, in his book "Designing Small
Craft", suggests that framing timber for a plywood boat could be
estimated as being one-third the weight of the plywood. This is for
the standard framed constuction, not stitch-and-glue, of course.
Howard
Open Mind, is very similar in concept and styling, although only 25'6"
x 7'10".
Regarding lumber required: John Teale, in his book "Designing Small
Craft", suggests that framing timber for a plywood boat could be
estimated as being one-third the weight of the plywood. This is for
the standard framed constuction, not stitch-and-glue, of course.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> Houseboat Concept 41ft x 11 ft
>
>http://flickr.com/photos/hallman/2367441392/
>
> Like Illinois, a big barge disguised to look like a boat. 41 feet by
> 11 feet. Unlike Illinois, it has no power (which avoid taxes) and is
> moved by a small yawlboat or allowed to dry out on the tide flats.
>
> I figure about 100 sheets of 1/2 inch plywood, a small pile of 2x6
> lumber and perhaps 50 gallons of epoxy? It would build about as
quick
> as a similarly sized two room cabin, guessing 2,500 man hours.
>
Houseboat Concept 41ft x 11 ft
http://flickr.com/photos/hallman/2367441392/
Like Illinois, a big barge disguised to look like a boat. 41 feet by
11 feet. Unlike Illinois, it has no power (which avoid taxes) and is
moved by a small yawlboat or allowed to dry out on the tide flats.
I figure about 100 sheets of 1/2 inch plywood, a small pile of 2x6
lumber and perhaps 50 gallons of epoxy? It would build about as quick
as a similarly sized two room cabin, guessing 2,500 man hours.
http://flickr.com/photos/hallman/2367441392/
Like Illinois, a big barge disguised to look like a boat. 41 feet by
11 feet. Unlike Illinois, it has no power (which avoid taxes) and is
moved by a small yawlboat or allowed to dry out on the tide flats.
I figure about 100 sheets of 1/2 inch plywood, a small pile of 2x6
lumber and perhaps 50 gallons of epoxy? It would build about as quick
as a similarly sized two room cabin, guessing 2,500 man hours.