Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
Thanks, I was out on the river tonight in my CLC stitch and tape Kayak, rides great and nice and light. I was shocked at the cost of buying a kayak a few years ago so thought 15 years of carpentry should do more than live an almost finished house, so I bought a set of plans and Boat #1. I have offered a couple of building classes in s& tape construction, and it sure worked well for newbies to boat building, but alas I have been bitten buy the lapstrake bug and have ordered plans for a canoe. If you are into paddling it sure can put you in finished boat in as little as 50 or 60 hours unless like the rest of us you will want to spend at lest 3/4 of your time finishing it so the sun shines of the deck so bright that sun glasses are needed in the shade! Keep us posted on your progress and maybe a shop bee at your place to get some walls up, how about out there, not like we all don't have enough to do
Randy
Randy
--- On Mon, 7/14/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Received: Monday, July 14, 2008, 11:12 PM
Hi Randy,
My major work is with antique furniture, custom woodwork and high end yachts where I manufacture, repair and refinish interior and exterior woodwork, and design and manufacture consoles for navigation and communication equipments.
The wooden boat building is a new hobby for me because I got enough of one life around plastic and alluminum boats. About three years ago I discovered the stitch and glue method, I was very excited about and so I started learning more and more about boat building and the plywood idea faded away very fast and were replaced by the traditional framing and planking methods. (Oops! I said traditional. Well let said old methods because may be within another 20 years the plywood will become the "Traditional" ).
I am in the process now to start building a 22 ft semi displacement cabin cruiser with sawn frames and strip planking.
I need first to complete the place for the construction, a 22' x 55' metal building with wooden framework. The slab is already in place and the metal roof and siding are already here. I just need the time to put it together.
I don't think to go into boatbuilding because I know myself, I will loose money by putting too much time into details.
You can see my shop and my work on mywebsite www.elcraftonline. com .
Giuliano
--- On Mon, 7/14/08, .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 1:50 AM
What boat shop would that be???? Giuliano, perhaps a few pics of your in shop work would be sweet.
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/12/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Received: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 4:04 PM
Very good point Randy,
I totally support you on this one.
Several time customers come in my shop asking me to repair something that was not properly manufactured or repaired.
In such cases I tell them that I need to start from scratch because working on something that is wrong is not right and two wrong can not make one right.
Giuliano.
--- On Fri, 7/11/08, .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:37 PM
I build wood boats for a living in Muskoka, we use joinery to constuct our crafts, PL is NOT the way to go, far to brittal and just as messy as epoxy, There is no job worth doing by half,
either take the time, say 10 years to become a master boat builder or use the proper adhesives for the job.
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org> wrote:
From: Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Received: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 2:46 PM
It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not be
building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
Mungo Jerry wrote:
> Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the joy out
> of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
> why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
>
> The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
> building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
> and tape the seams just for watertightness.
>
> So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
> and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
> know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
> discussed?
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbaryahoo.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbaryahoo.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Randy,
My major work is with antique furniture, custom woodwork and high end yachts where I manufacture, repair and refinish interior and exterior woodwork, and design and manufacture consoles for navigation and communication equipments.
The wooden boat building is a new hobby for me because I got enough of one life around plastic and alluminum boats. About three years ago I discovered the stitch and glue method, I was very excited about and so I started learning more and more about boat building and the plywood idea faded away very fast and were replaced by the traditional framing and planking methods. (Oops! I said traditional. Well let said old methods because may be within another 20 years the plywood will become the "Traditional").
I am in the process now to start building a 22 ft semi displacement cabin cruiser with sawn frames and strip planking.
I need first to complete the place for the construction, a 22' x 55' metal building with wooden framework. The slab is already in place and the metal roof and siding are already here. I just need the time to put it together.
I don't think to go into boatbuilding because I know myself, I will loose money by putting too much time into details.
You can see my shop and my work on mywebsite www.elcraftonline.com .
Giuliano
My major work is with antique furniture, custom woodwork and high end yachts where I manufacture, repair and refinish interior and exterior woodwork, and design and manufacture consoles for navigation and communication equipments.
The wooden boat building is a new hobby for me because I got enough of one life around plastic and alluminum boats. About three years ago I discovered the stitch and glue method, I was very excited about and so I started learning more and more about boat building and the plywood idea faded away very fast and were replaced by the traditional framing and planking methods. (Oops! I said traditional. Well let said old methods because may be within another 20 years the plywood will become the "Traditional").
I am in the process now to start building a 22 ft semi displacement cabin cruiser with sawn frames and strip planking.
I need first to complete the place for the construction, a 22' x 55' metal building with wooden framework. The slab is already in place and the metal roof and siding are already here. I just need the time to put it together.
I don't think to go into boatbuilding because I know myself, I will loose money by putting too much time into details.
You can see my shop and my work on mywebsite www.elcraftonline.com .
Giuliano
--- On Mon, 7/14/08, .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@...> wrote:
From: .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 1:50 AM
What boat shop would that be???? Giuliano, perhaps a few pics of your in shop work would be sweet.
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/12/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Received: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 4:04 PM
Very good point Randy,
I totally support you on this one.
Several time customers come in my shop asking me to repair something that was not properly manufactured or repaired.
In such cases I tell them that I need to start from scratch because working on something that is wrong is not right and two wrong can not make one right.
Giuliano.
--- On Fri, 7/11/08, .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:37 PM
I build wood boats for a living in Muskoka, we use joinery to constuct our crafts, PL is NOT the way to go, far to brittal and just as messy as epoxy, There is no job worth doing by half,
either take the time, say 10 years to become a master boat builder or use the proper adhesives for the job.
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org> wrote:
From: Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Received: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 2:46 PM
It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not be
building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
Mungo Jerry wrote:
> Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the joy out
> of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
> why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
>
> The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
> building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
> and tape the seams just for watertightness.
>
> So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
> and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
> know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
> discussed?
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbaryahoo.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbaryahoo.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What boat shop would that be???? Giuliano, perhaps a few pics of your in shop work would be sweet.
Randy
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/12/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Received: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 4:04 PM
Very good point Randy,
I totally support you on this one.
Several time customers come in my shop asking me to repair something that was not properly manufactured or repaired.
In such cases I tell them that I need to start from scratch because working on something that is wrong is not right and two wrong can not make one right.
Giuliano.
--- On Fri, 7/11/08, .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@ yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:37 PM
I build wood boats for a living in Muskoka, we use joinery to constuct our crafts, PL is NOT the way to go, far to brittal and just as messy as epoxy, There is no job worth doing by half,
either take the time, say 10 years to become a master boat builder or use the proper adhesives for the job.
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org> wrote:
From: Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Received: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 2:46 PM
It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not be
building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
Mungo Jerry wrote:
> Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the joy out
> of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
> why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
>
> The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
> building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
> and tape the seams just for watertightness.
>
> So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
> and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
> know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
> discussed?
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbaryahoo.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When you look at it like that you are right it is very spendy. But when you look at the ease you can glue frames together and the lack of runs and drips will account for a lot. It takes about a week or so for 5200 to fully cure.
As for how well does epoxy stick to it at a couple of shops where we did boat repairs they would coat the shaftlog and cutless bearing housing mating areas with 5200 and full any gaps with thickened epoxy then seat the shaftlog and bolt it in place. It's not how I would do it. But it worked.
The 4200 has a faster cure time over the 5200. As far as I know epoxy sticks to it very well. But also on a hull seam you will only have a fine line where the panels meet. I use a putty knife or stick to clean up any squeese out so things look neat. I also found Acetone works best for clean up. Alcohol works as well but the tube says don't use it for clean up. But I do when it comes to getting it off my hands and tools.... Oh it's also one of those things if you even think about using it you seem to have it all over you!
But it's not as bad as stuff we used at Uniflite on the Navy line that we had to mix! I think every one of us that had to work with it had a pair of coveralls that we only wore when we were using it. The stuff was used to bond deck to hulls, guards and any major hardware. It was made by Thiacal and we got it in 5 gal pails and you mixed it 50-50. Gee that's been 30 years ago now.... I also think they still make it as well.
Blessings all enjoy the rest of the weekend.
Krissie
$ 12.95 for 10 oz = $ 186.48 per gallon.
With such amount of money I can buy almost 5 gallons of 103-LVX epoxy from "Fasco".
Is an excellent epoxy for laminnating, glassing and encapsulating.
One thing sure, it is easier to use one single component product especially if fitted with a gun dispenser instead of mixing like with epoxy.
One question, after you use the 3Ms products for gluing, how epoxy hold up when you are going to saturate the surface or glass. Normally epoxy requires either a clean wooden surface or other epoxyes either sanded, cleaned or recoated before the previous epoxy application is fully cured?
I will be afraid that the epoxy coating will come either loose or crack on the areas where the other glue is going to be in between the wood and the epoxy and this may cause internal root due to moisture entering into the wood in those areas.
I will go buy some of those 3Ms adhesives and try some samples to see how this combination will work.
What is the difference between the 4200 and 5200?
Giuliano
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As for how well does epoxy stick to it at a couple of shops where we did boat repairs they would coat the shaftlog and cutless bearing housing mating areas with 5200 and full any gaps with thickened epoxy then seat the shaftlog and bolt it in place. It's not how I would do it. But it worked.
The 4200 has a faster cure time over the 5200. As far as I know epoxy sticks to it very well. But also on a hull seam you will only have a fine line where the panels meet. I use a putty knife or stick to clean up any squeese out so things look neat. I also found Acetone works best for clean up. Alcohol works as well but the tube says don't use it for clean up. But I do when it comes to getting it off my hands and tools.... Oh it's also one of those things if you even think about using it you seem to have it all over you!
But it's not as bad as stuff we used at Uniflite on the Navy line that we had to mix! I think every one of us that had to work with it had a pair of coveralls that we only wore when we were using it. The stuff was used to bond deck to hulls, guards and any major hardware. It was made by Thiacal and we got it in 5 gal pails and you mixed it 50-50. Gee that's been 30 years ago now.... I also think they still make it as well.
Blessings all enjoy the rest of the weekend.
Krissie
$ 12.95 for 10 oz = $ 186.48 per gallon.
With such amount of money I can buy almost 5 gallons of 103-LVX epoxy from "Fasco".
Is an excellent epoxy for laminnating, glassing and encapsulating.
One thing sure, it is easier to use one single component product especially if fitted with a gun dispenser instead of mixing like with epoxy.
One question, after you use the 3Ms products for gluing, how epoxy hold up when you are going to saturate the surface or glass. Normally epoxy requires either a clean wooden surface or other epoxyes either sanded, cleaned or recoated before the previous epoxy application is fully cured?
I will be afraid that the epoxy coating will come either loose or crack on the areas where the other glue is going to be in between the wood and the epoxy and this may cause internal root due to moisture entering into the wood in those areas.
I will go buy some of those 3Ms adhesives and try some samples to see how this combination will work.
What is the difference between the 4200 and 5200?
Giuliano
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
$ 12.95 for 10 oz = $ 186.48 per gallon.
With such amount of money I can buy almost 5 gallons of 103-LVX epoxy from "Fasco".
Is an excellent epoxy for laminnating, glassing and encapsulating.
One thing sure, it is easier to use one single component product especially if fitted with a gun dispenser instead of mixing like with epoxy.
One question, after you use the 3Ms products for gluing, how epoxy hold up when you are going to saturate the surface or glass. Normally epoxy requires either a clean wooden surface or other epoxyes either sanded, cleaned or recoated before the previous epoxy application is fully cured?
I will be afraid that the epoxy coating will come either loose or crack on the areas where the other glue is going to be in between the wood and the epoxy and this may cause internal root due to moisture entering into the wood in those areas.
I will go buy some of those 3Ms adhesives and try some samples to see how this combination will work.
What is the difference between the 4200 and 5200?
Giuliano
With such amount of money I can buy almost 5 gallons of 103-LVX epoxy from "Fasco".
Is an excellent epoxy for laminnating, glassing and encapsulating.
One thing sure, it is easier to use one single component product especially if fitted with a gun dispenser instead of mixing like with epoxy.
One question, after you use the 3Ms products for gluing, how epoxy hold up when you are going to saturate the surface or glass. Normally epoxy requires either a clean wooden surface or other epoxyes either sanded, cleaned or recoated before the previous epoxy application is fully cured?
I will be afraid that the epoxy coating will come either loose or crack on the areas where the other glue is going to be in between the wood and the epoxy and this may cause internal root due to moisture entering into the wood in those areas.
I will go buy some of those 3Ms adhesives and try some samples to see how this combination will work.
What is the difference between the 4200 and 5200?
Giuliano
--- On Sun, 7/13/08, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
From: Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:25 AM
Somw may think I'm crazy but I've had very good luck with using 3Ms 4200 and 5200 gluing things together. After all it does say adhesive/sealant right on the tube. I've picked the stuff up at the lumber yard $12.95 a 10 oz tube over the $19.95 a tube at West Marine. In most small craft you are not going to be using a lot of it. The fast cure skins in just a few hours.
Someone said something about taking a class and learn how to do woodworking and I would have to say he's very much right. But if you are building a quick and dirty boat why not use simple things that work? I'll use 4200/5200 over PL anytime. I know for a fact that they will hold after being underwater for 11 years on a wood boat. We had to replace two frames when a family pulled off the hull sheeting on a bow he had added to an LCPL that he had setup to be a gillnetter. He had used 5200 to glue every thing together. Getting things apart was a bear!
Blessings Krissie
--- On Sat, 7/12/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 9:04 AM
Very good point Randy,
I totally support you on this one.
Several time customers come in my shop asking me to repair something that was not properly manufactured or repaired.
In such cases I tell them that I need to start from scratch because working on something that is wrong is not right and two wrong can not make one right.
Giuliano.
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have to agree with you on it as a glue I am working on a 62 Lightning
class one design and the inner and outer keel chine logs transom and
stem where all bedded with it then screwed togather with bronze
screws. The wood roted out before the edges came apart. The CB trunk
was also assembaled with it but it seperated a little easer with help.
When it comes to just gluing epoxy is cheaper.
Jon
class one design and the inner and outer keel chine logs transom and
stem where all bedded with it then screwed togather with bronze
screws. The wood roted out before the edges came apart. The CB trunk
was also assembaled with it but it seperated a little easer with help.
When it comes to just gluing epoxy is cheaper.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Somw may think I'm crazy but I've had very good luck with using 3Ms
4200 and 5200 gluing things together. After all it does say
adhesive/sealant right on the tube. I've picked the stuff up at the
lumber yard $12.95 a 10 oz tube over the $19.95 a tube at West
Marine. In most small craft you are not going to be using a lot of
it. The fast cure skins in just a few hours.
>
> Someone said something about taking a class and learn how to do
woodworking and I would have to say he's very much right. But if you
are building a quick and dirty boat why not use simple things that
work? I'll use 4200/5200 over PL anytime. I know for a fact that they
will hold after being underwater for 11 years on a wood boat. We had
to replace two frames when a family pulled off the hull sheeting on a
bow he had added to an LCPL that he had setup to be a gillnetter. He
had used 5200 to glue every thing together. Getting things apart was
a bear!
>
> Blessings Krissie
Somw may think I'm crazy but I've had very good luck with using 3Ms 4200 and 5200 gluing things together. After all it does say adhesive/sealant right on the tube. I've picked the stuff up at the lumber yard $12.95 a 10 oz tube over the $19.95 a tube at West Marine. In most small craft you are not going to be using a lot of it. The fast cure skins in just a few hours.
Someone said something about taking a class and learn how to do woodworking and I would have to say he's very much right. But if you are building a quick and dirty boat why not use simple things that work? I'll use 4200/5200 over PL anytime. I know for a fact that they will hold after being underwater for 11 years on a wood boat. We had to replace two frames when a family pulled off the hull sheeting on a bow he had added to an LCPL that he had setup to be a gillnetter. He had used 5200 to glue every thing together. Getting things apart was a bear!
Blessings Krissie
Someone said something about taking a class and learn how to do woodworking and I would have to say he's very much right. But if you are building a quick and dirty boat why not use simple things that work? I'll use 4200/5200 over PL anytime. I know for a fact that they will hold after being underwater for 11 years on a wood boat. We had to replace two frames when a family pulled off the hull sheeting on a bow he had added to an LCPL that he had setup to be a gillnetter. He had used 5200 to glue every thing together. Getting things apart was a bear!
Blessings Krissie
--- On Sat, 7/12/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 9:04 AM
Very good point Randy,
I totally support you on this one.
Several time customers come in my shop asking me to repair something that was not properly manufactured or repaired.
In such cases I tell them that I need to start from scratch because working on something that is wrong is not right and two wrong can not make one right.
Giuliano.
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Very good point Randy,
I totally support you on this one.
Several time customers come in my shop asking me to repair something that was not properly manufactured or repaired.
In such cases I tell them that I need to start from scratch because working on something that is wrong is not right and two wrong can not make one right.
Giuliano.
I totally support you on this one.
Several time customers come in my shop asking me to repair something that was not properly manufactured or repaired.
In such cases I tell them that I need to start from scratch because working on something that is wrong is not right and two wrong can not make one right.
Giuliano.
--- On Fri, 7/11/08, .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@...> wrote:
From: .Randy Powell <rpspiritwaters@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:37 PM
I build wood boats for a living in Muskoka, we use joinery to constuct our crafts, PL is NOT the way to go, far to brittal and just as messy as epoxy, There is no job worth doing by half,
either take the time, say 10 years to become a master boat builder or use the proper adhesives for the job.
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org> wrote:
From: Clyde Wisner <clydewis@carr. org>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Received: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 2:46 PM
It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not be
building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
Mungo Jerry wrote:
> Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the joy out
> of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
> why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
>
> The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
> building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
> and tape the seams just for watertightness.
>
> So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
> and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
> know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
> discussed?
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbaryahoo.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I build wood boats for a living in Muskoka, we use joinery to constuct our crafts, PL is NOT the way to go, far to brittal and just as messy as epoxy, There is no job worth doing by half,
either take the time, say 10 years to become a master boat builder or use the proper adhesives for the job.
Randy
either take the time, say 10 years to become a master boat builder or use the proper adhesives for the job.
Randy
--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
From: Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Received: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 2:46 PM
It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not be
building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
Mungo Jerry wrote:
> Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the joy out
> of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
> why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
>
> The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
> building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
> and tape the seams just for watertightness.
>
> So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
> and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
> know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
> discussed?
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The main locust trees we have here in the states are black locust and
honey locust. There may be more?
Here in the Shenandoah valley of Virginia there are both. One of the
things I have been trying to find out is if honey locust and there is a
lot of that species here is good for boat building. It is easier to
work than black locust. I believe because of it's oiliness that it is
likely as good or better than a good grade of teak which is almost
impossible to find now days.
When I ask the farmers who use black locust for fence posts they say
honey locust is no good or it's OK if used indoors. What I would like
to now is if black locust lasts 100 years in the ground will honey
locust last 20 years? If it will it will likely last fifty or a hundred
years in a boat. I have not been able to get an answer.
In finding locust you have to be careful though if it is growing in
a straight line it has usually grown up along a fence and someone has
likely attached a fence to it at some point so there are staples in it.
I took a couple of boards off the lower section of an old barn that
I suspected was locust and planed down some pieces and I believe them
to be honey locust. They were at ground level bu not under ground. My
wifes grandfather built the barn in his lifetime, he died at age 85 and
that was 30 years ago.
I bought some honey locust a few years ago for $3.50 a board foot
sawed and milled to size to make a couple tables from. Beautiful stuff
in a time when you can't hardly buy a decent piece of wood at any
price.
Doug
ira einsteen wrote:
honey locust. There may be more?
Here in the Shenandoah valley of Virginia there are both. One of the
things I have been trying to find out is if honey locust and there is a
lot of that species here is good for boat building. It is easier to
work than black locust. I believe because of it's oiliness that it is
likely as good or better than a good grade of teak which is almost
impossible to find now days.
When I ask the farmers who use black locust for fence posts they say
honey locust is no good or it's OK if used indoors. What I would like
to now is if black locust lasts 100 years in the ground will honey
locust last 20 years? If it will it will likely last fifty or a hundred
years in a boat. I have not been able to get an answer.
In finding locust you have to be careful though if it is growing in
a straight line it has usually grown up along a fence and someone has
likely attached a fence to it at some point so there are staples in it.
I took a couple of boards off the lower section of an old barn that
I suspected was locust and planed down some pieces and I believe them
to be honey locust. They were at ground level bu not under ground. My
wifes grandfather built the barn in his lifetime, he died at age 85 and
that was 30 years ago.
I bought some honey locust a few years ago for $3.50 a board foot
sawed and milled to size to make a couple tables from. Beautiful stuff
in a time when you can't hardly buy a decent piece of wood at any
price.
Doug
ira einsteen wrote:
>
> I live in Long Island, NY off of a road called Pipestave Hollow Rd.
> The name derives from the locust stands that used to be in the area.
> There are still quite a few locusts around, but they're no where near
> as numerous as they used to be. It's a slow growing tree and the
> numbers don't justify commercial harvesting anymore. Locust wood was
> used to construct pipes; very much like they make wooden barrels
> today, hence the name "Pipestave Hollow". There are still more than
> a few wooden pipes under the streets of New York City constructed from
> these trees. The trees are large - the biggest 50 or 60 feet high.
> I'm not familiar enough with the physical characteristics to say why
> they weren't used more in boatbuilding. I've wondered about it
> myself. It's a very dense, heavy wood that's extremely rot
> resistent. Locust fence posts will outlast cedar or pressure treated
> in the ground without the application of any treatment. I've used it for
> firewood and it burns longer and hotter than white or red oak.
>
> Ira
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
I live in Long Island, NY off of a road called Pipestave Hollow Rd. The name derives from the locust stands that used to be in the area. There are still quite a few locusts around, but they're no where near as numerous as they used to be. It's a slow growing tree and the numbers don't justify commercial harvesting anymore. Locust wood was used to construct pipes; very much like they make wooden barrels today, hence the name "Pipestave Hollow". There are still more than a few wooden pipes under the streets of New York City constructed from these trees. The trees are large - the biggest 50 or 60 feet high. I'm not familiar enough with the physical characteristics to say why they weren't used more in boatbuilding. I've wondered about it myself. It's a very dense, heavy wood that's extremely rot resistent. Locust fence posts will outlast cedar or pressure treated in the ground without the application of any treatment. I've used it for
firewood and it burns longer and hotter than white or red oak.
Ira
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
firewood and it burns longer and hotter than white or red oak.
Ira
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I built my Sweet Pea, I used a combination of epoxy and PL Premium.
For an edge to edge joint, as at a chine, I used fillets of thickened
epoxy reinforced by glass tape & epoxy.
For wood to wood joints, as for the sheer clamp to sheer line of the
plywood hull & for wooden blocks used to secure decking panels, I used
PL with the joint pulled tight with screws.
For protection from rot, a well painted plywood face is pretty good.
The end grain needs be well sealed with whatever seals end grains. For
solid wood I use Pressure Treated wood. Won't rot even if you use it
underground.
As to the apparent prevalent fear of the toxicity of chemicals; if you
use materials in accordance with label instructions with something
approaching common sense, there simply are no problems. But if you
choose to 'huff' solvents with your head stuck in a poly bag to get a
high, your liver will quit and you will die. Toxicity problems for
commercially available products, used correctly, simply do not exist.
Think about it; would *you* sell a product so inherently dangerous that
the lawyers for victims would attack you like a swarm of killer bees?
I would argue that filleted epoxy/thickened epoxy/glass reinforced epoxy
is best at constructing angled ply joints and that PL Premium is
perfectly adequate for flat wood to wood joints, even those that require
some gap filling. Screws won't hurt.
And, for a quick reality check, I built the Sweet Pea at a cost of under
$300. At 74 years old, I will likely be cremated before it is.
Calm Seas & A Prosperous Voyage
Malcolm
Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
For an edge to edge joint, as at a chine, I used fillets of thickened
epoxy reinforced by glass tape & epoxy.
For wood to wood joints, as for the sheer clamp to sheer line of the
plywood hull & for wooden blocks used to secure decking panels, I used
PL with the joint pulled tight with screws.
For protection from rot, a well painted plywood face is pretty good.
The end grain needs be well sealed with whatever seals end grains. For
solid wood I use Pressure Treated wood. Won't rot even if you use it
underground.
As to the apparent prevalent fear of the toxicity of chemicals; if you
use materials in accordance with label instructions with something
approaching common sense, there simply are no problems. But if you
choose to 'huff' solvents with your head stuck in a poly bag to get a
high, your liver will quit and you will die. Toxicity problems for
commercially available products, used correctly, simply do not exist.
Think about it; would *you* sell a product so inherently dangerous that
the lawyers for victims would attack you like a swarm of killer bees?
I would argue that filleted epoxy/thickened epoxy/glass reinforced epoxy
is best at constructing angled ply joints and that PL Premium is
perfectly adequate for flat wood to wood joints, even those that require
some gap filling. Screws won't hurt.
And, for a quick reality check, I built the Sweet Pea at a cost of under
$300. At 74 years old, I will likely be cremated before it is.
Calm Seas & A Prosperous Voyage
Malcolm
Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Back in the 60s our Boy Scout troup built S&G canoes with glass and
> tape on inside and outside and glass over all the outside. They where
> well used but on more then one occasion one got a bow split. Duct
> tape got them home down another 40 miles of river. I would never use
> drywall tape and PL anything it could be a life under the same
> conditions.
>
> .When
>
> _
Back in the 60s our Boy Scout troup built S&G canoes with glass and
tape on inside and outside and glass over all the outside. They where
well used but on more then one occasion one got a bow split. Duct
tape got them home down another 40 miles of river. I would never use
drywall tape and PL anything it could be a life under the same
conditions.
Jon
tape on inside and outside and glass over all the outside. They where
well used but on more then one occasion one got a bow split. Duct
tape got them home down another 40 miles of river. I would never use
drywall tape and PL anything it could be a life under the same
conditions.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Anderson" <bawrytr@...> wrote:
>
> Here is a link for the (or a) pl premium test:
>
>http://www.simplicityboats.com/pl_premium.htm
>
> I use a lot of the equivalent of titebond II or III in building
> because I don't like messing with epoxy, but I am not at all sure it
> works out much cheaper than epoxy bought in bulk. The same is
probably
> true of glues like pl premium, and in any case, if you are just
> talking about using it as a glue and filet material, the difference
in
> cost between pl premium and sheetrock glass, and epoxy and tape on
say
> a canoe or a small to medium sized sailboat couldn't amount to too
> much. and having used a Sikaflex caulk/adhesive to glue up a canoe,
> among other things, I can say that the stuff also makes a mess, and
is
> not especially nice in terms of toxicity.
>
>
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, malcolmf <malcolmf@> wrote:
> >
> > Ease of use, toxicity, years of training and everything else
aside,
> > fiberglass & epoxy happen to make a very fine engineering
material.
> > I don't claim to be a structural engineer & those of you who have
> > greater expertise, I ask to please step forward.
> > As I understand it, the trick is to embed one type of material
into
> > another material having different characteristics. Whether
fiberglass
> > or wood, the process is much the same, with bamboo perhaps the
neatest
> > example: long flexible fibers are embedded in a hard matrix.
> > A wooden boat is a bunch of closely knit cellulose fibers held
together
> > by lignin.
> > A fiberglass boat is a bunch of closely knit glass fibers held
together
> > by epoxy - or polyester for those on a more limited budget.
> > This is why the wall board tape doesn't work well. The fibers
are too
> > far apart to be a real part of the structure. PL does fill gaps,
but
> > not the same way that an epoxy/glass fiber matrix does.
> > Lignin can be dissolved in caustic soda (NaOH) & hot water,
separated
> > from the resulting pulp and the residual cellulosic fibers used
to make
> > paper.
> > That is why cardboard boat races are so much wetter and more
> > entertaining than wooden boat races.
> > Calm Seas & A Prosperous Voyage
> > Malcolm
> >
>
Here is a link for the (or a) pl premium test:
http://www.simplicityboats.com/pl_premium.htm
I use a lot of the equivalent of titebond II or III in building
because I don't like messing with epoxy, but I am not at all sure it
works out much cheaper than epoxy bought in bulk. The same is probably
true of glues like pl premium, and in any case, if you are just
talking about using it as a glue and filet material, the difference in
cost between pl premium and sheetrock glass, and epoxy and tape on say
a canoe or a small to medium sized sailboat couldn't amount to too
much. and having used a Sikaflex caulk/adhesive to glue up a canoe,
among other things, I can say that the stuff also makes a mess, and is
not especially nice in terms of toxicity.
Cheers, Brian
http://www.simplicityboats.com/pl_premium.htm
I use a lot of the equivalent of titebond II or III in building
because I don't like messing with epoxy, but I am not at all sure it
works out much cheaper than epoxy bought in bulk. The same is probably
true of glues like pl premium, and in any case, if you are just
talking about using it as a glue and filet material, the difference in
cost between pl premium and sheetrock glass, and epoxy and tape on say
a canoe or a small to medium sized sailboat couldn't amount to too
much. and having used a Sikaflex caulk/adhesive to glue up a canoe,
among other things, I can say that the stuff also makes a mess, and is
not especially nice in terms of toxicity.
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, malcolmf <malcolmf@...> wrote:
>
> Ease of use, toxicity, years of training and everything else aside,
> fiberglass & epoxy happen to make a very fine engineering material.
> I don't claim to be a structural engineer & those of you who have
> greater expertise, I ask to please step forward.
> As I understand it, the trick is to embed one type of material into
> another material having different characteristics. Whether fiberglass
> or wood, the process is much the same, with bamboo perhaps the neatest
> example: long flexible fibers are embedded in a hard matrix.
> A wooden boat is a bunch of closely knit cellulose fibers held together
> by lignin.
> A fiberglass boat is a bunch of closely knit glass fibers held together
> by epoxy - or polyester for those on a more limited budget.
> This is why the wall board tape doesn't work well. The fibers are too
> far apart to be a real part of the structure. PL does fill gaps, but
> not the same way that an epoxy/glass fiber matrix does.
> Lignin can be dissolved in caustic soda (NaOH) & hot water, separated
> from the resulting pulp and the residual cellulosic fibers used to make
> paper.
> That is why cardboard boat races are so much wetter and more
> entertaining than wooden boat races.
> Calm Seas & A Prosperous Voyage
> Malcolm
>
Ease of use, toxicity, years of training and everything else aside,
fiberglass & epoxy happen to make a very fine engineering material.
I don't claim to be a structural engineer & those of you who have
greater expertise, I ask to please step forward.
As I understand it, the trick is to embed one type of material into
another material having different characteristics. Whether fiberglass
or wood, the process is much the same, with bamboo perhaps the neatest
example: long flexible fibers are embedded in a hard matrix.
A wooden boat is a bunch of closely knit cellulose fibers held together
by lignin.
A fiberglass boat is a bunch of closely knit glass fibers held together
by epoxy - or polyester for those on a more limited budget.
This is why the wall board tape doesn't work well. The fibers are too
far apart to be a real part of the structure. PL does fill gaps, but
not the same way that an epoxy/glass fiber matrix does.
Lignin can be dissolved in caustic soda (NaOH) & hot water, separated
from the resulting pulp and the residual cellulosic fibers used to make
paper.
That is why cardboard boat races are so much wetter and more
entertaining than wooden boat races.
Calm Seas & A Prosperous Voyage
Malcolm
fiberglass & epoxy happen to make a very fine engineering material.
I don't claim to be a structural engineer & those of you who have
greater expertise, I ask to please step forward.
As I understand it, the trick is to embed one type of material into
another material having different characteristics. Whether fiberglass
or wood, the process is much the same, with bamboo perhaps the neatest
example: long flexible fibers are embedded in a hard matrix.
A wooden boat is a bunch of closely knit cellulose fibers held together
by lignin.
A fiberglass boat is a bunch of closely knit glass fibers held together
by epoxy - or polyester for those on a more limited budget.
This is why the wall board tape doesn't work well. The fibers are too
far apart to be a real part of the structure. PL does fill gaps, but
not the same way that an epoxy/glass fiber matrix does.
Lignin can be dissolved in caustic soda (NaOH) & hot water, separated
from the resulting pulp and the residual cellulosic fibers used to make
paper.
That is why cardboard boat races are so much wetter and more
entertaining than wooden boat races.
Calm Seas & A Prosperous Voyage
Malcolm
My locust trees are not that large, while the wood is excellent it is not really a commercially available wood.
Lon
Lon
--- On Mon, 7/7/08, Chester Young <chester@...> wrote:
From: Chester Young <chester@...>
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:04 PM
How big does a Locust tree get? I have been working in the marine
environment for some time (20+ years now) here in south west Florida and
have not seen a single use of Locust. If the resistance is as good as noted
I would at least expect to see some wood seawalls or if the trees are large
enough there would be a market for piling that do not need treating and are
not susceptible to worm borers. I have been exposed to greenheart and Ipe,
both of which come from a long ways away and are prohibitively expensive.
Caloosarat.
_____
From: bolger@yahoogroups. com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
Douglas Pollard
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 6:26 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
Joinery can be learned in a night class at your local high school
probably in one slow winter. And I don't now about other places but
along the east coast and Appalatian mountain reagion and the northern
midwest there is all the Locust for free that anyone wants. You cut it
yourself ,dry it and build out of it. It will not rot, it's strong and
beautiful. You don't even have to have screws you can make fasteners
from it. You don't have to buy hardware I even made my rudder pintels
from it and my cleats and my blocks.. You don't have to paint or varnish
it and it weathers to a beautiful silver sheen. Worms won't even eat it
The only drawback I can see is it's heavy but compared to water or at
8lbs a gallon it's pretty light. It's perfect. Just requires a little
work. No Money except a little for some lead to sink a center board!
Doug
Giuliano Girometta wrote:
>
> Learning to weld in order to build an inexpensive boat is a good idea,
> but that may bring us to future posts about using steel wire instead
> of welding rods. (LOL)
>
> Giuliano
>
> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Mike <Mikieq@erols. <mailto:Mikieq% 40erols.com> com
> <mailto:Mikieq% 40erols.com> > wrote:
>
> From: Mike <Mikieq@erols. <mailto:Mikieq% 40erols.com> com
<mailto:Mikieq% 40erols.com> >
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
> To: bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger% 40yahoogroups. com> com
<mailto:bolger% 40yahoogroups. com>
> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:28 PM
>
> This whole discussion reminds me of a letter that was posted in the
> old "Small Boat Journal" where a fellow claimed to have used
> fiberglass insulation batts and polyester resin to build his boat
> with. My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
> you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning joinery,
> although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
> let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
> Epoxy and fiberglass tape have brought boatbuilding to the adverage
> guy. The down side is rubber gloves and a little care, I don't think
> that is too bad of a trade off.
> Mike
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, c o'donnell <dadadata@.. .> wrote:
> >
> > Polyester isn't glue. It's plastic. I rehabbed a Birdwatcher that
> was
> > "polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
> >
> > > One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a
> Yellow
> > > Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
> > > pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it.
> All
> > > came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't
> forget!
> > >
> > > PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this
> epoxy.
> > >http://www.jgreercom/
> > >
> > > Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
> > >
> > > -mark
> > > On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy
> but
> > > merely
> > > > commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and
> > > PL. At
> > > > this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a
> > > "throwaway"
> > > > I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
> > > >
> > > > Bryant
> > > >
> > > >> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax,
> > > delivered.
> > > >> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ ---
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > === craig o'donnell
> > dadadata@...
> > Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Joinery can be learned in a night class at your local high schoolsink > a center board!
> probably in one slow winter. And I don't now about other places but
> along the east coast and Appalatian mountain reagion and the northern
> midwest there is all the Locust for free that anyone wants. You cut it
> yourself ,dry it and build out of it. It will not rot, it's strong and
> beautiful. You don't even have to have screws you can make fasteners
> from it. You don't have to buy hardware I even made my rudder pintels
> from it and my cleats and my blocks.. You don't have to paint or
> varnish it and it weathers to a beautiful silver sheen. Worms won't
> even eat it The only drawback I can see is it's heavy but compared to
> water or at 8lbs a gallon it's pretty light. It's perfect. Just
> requires a little work. No Money except a little for some lead to
Don't forget the couple of thousand dollars for the sawing and milling
equipment, land for sheltered stickering, and a year or two worth of
patience!
P.S. This post by Doug refers to black locust, not honeylocust (one
word). Seehttp://www.forestry.iastate.edu/publications/PM329.pdffor
some comparisons.
How big does a Locust tree get? I have been working in the marine
environment for some time (20+ years now) here in south west Florida and
have not seen a single use of Locust. If the resistance is as good as noted
I would at least expect to see some wood seawalls or if the trees are large
enough there would be a market for piling that do not need treating and are
not susceptible to worm borers. I have been exposed to greenheart and Ipe,
both of which come from a long ways away and are prohibitively expensive.
Caloosarat.
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Douglas Pollard
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 6:26 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
Joinery can be learned in a night class at your local high school
probably in one slow winter. And I don't now about other places but
along the east coast and Appalatian mountain reagion and the northern
midwest there is all the Locust for free that anyone wants. You cut it
yourself ,dry it and build out of it. It will not rot, it's strong and
beautiful. You don't even have to have screws you can make fasteners
from it. You don't have to buy hardware I even made my rudder pintels
from it and my cleats and my blocks.. You don't have to paint or varnish
it and it weathers to a beautiful silver sheen. Worms won't even eat it
The only drawback I can see is it's heavy but compared to water or at
8lbs a gallon it's pretty light. It's perfect. Just requires a little
work. No Money except a little for some lead to sink a center board!
Doug
Giuliano Girometta wrote:
environment for some time (20+ years now) here in south west Florida and
have not seen a single use of Locust. If the resistance is as good as noted
I would at least expect to see some wood seawalls or if the trees are large
enough there would be a market for piling that do not need treating and are
not susceptible to worm borers. I have been exposed to greenheart and Ipe,
both of which come from a long ways away and are prohibitively expensive.
Caloosarat.
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Douglas Pollard
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 6:26 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
Joinery can be learned in a night class at your local high school
probably in one slow winter. And I don't now about other places but
along the east coast and Appalatian mountain reagion and the northern
midwest there is all the Locust for free that anyone wants. You cut it
yourself ,dry it and build out of it. It will not rot, it's strong and
beautiful. You don't even have to have screws you can make fasteners
from it. You don't have to buy hardware I even made my rudder pintels
from it and my cleats and my blocks.. You don't have to paint or varnish
it and it weathers to a beautiful silver sheen. Worms won't even eat it
The only drawback I can see is it's heavy but compared to water or at
8lbs a gallon it's pretty light. It's perfect. Just requires a little
work. No Money except a little for some lead to sink a center board!
Doug
Giuliano Girometta wrote:
><mailto:Mikieq%40erols.com>>
> Learning to weld in order to build an inexpensive boat is a good idea,
> but that may bring us to future posts about using steel wire instead
> of welding rods. (LOL)
>
> Giuliano
>
> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Mike <Mikieq@erols. <mailto:Mikieq%40erols.com> com
> <mailto:Mikieq%40erols.com>> wrote:
>
> From: Mike <Mikieq@erols. <mailto:Mikieq%40erols.com> com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> To: bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com
> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:28 PM[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> This whole discussion reminds me of a letter that was posted in the
> old "Small Boat Journal" where a fellow claimed to have used
> fiberglass insulation batts and polyester resin to build his boat
> with. My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
> you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning joinery,
> although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
> let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
> Epoxy and fiberglass tape have brought boatbuilding to the adverage
> guy. The down side is rubber gloves and a little care, I don't think
> that is too bad of a trade off.
> Mike
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, c o'donnell <dadadata@.. .> wrote:
> >
> > Polyester isn't glue. It's plastic. I rehabbed a Birdwatcher that
> was
> > "polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
> >
> > > One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a
> Yellow
> > > Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
> > > pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it.
> All
> > > came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't
> forget!
> > >
> > > PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this
> epoxy.
> > >http://www.jgreercom/
> > >
> > > Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
> > >
> > > -mark
> > > On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy
> but
> > > merely
> > > > commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and
> > > PL. At
> > > > this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a
> > > "throwaway"
> > > > I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
> > > >
> > > > Bryant
> > > >
> > > >> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax,
> > > delivered.
> > > >> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ ---
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > === craig o'donnell
> > dadadata@...
> > Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Same here, I use a small MIG-100 from Harbor Freight for small welding jobs and is working fine for the last 5 years.
--- On Sun, 7/6/08, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
From: Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 10:19 PM
Well I've use a lot of both! Each one has it's place. If you have long weld runs a wirefeed is very nice. But with a wirefeed with hard wire you don't get the hot starts like you do with stick welding. So your stops and starts could leak. I've had very good luck with flux core wire when it comes to welding steel tanks.
Blessings all
Krissie
--- On Sun, 7/6/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:40 PM
Learning to weld in order to build an inexpensive boat is a good idea, but that may bring us to future posts about using steel wire instead of welding rods. (LOL)
Giuliano
-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joinery can be learned in a night class at your local high school
probably in one slow winter. And I don't now about other places but
along the east coast and Appalatian mountain reagion and the northern
midwest there is all the Locust for free that anyone wants. You cut it
yourself ,dry it and build out of it. It will not rot, it's strong and
beautiful. You don't even have to have screws you can make fasteners
from it. You don't have to buy hardware I even made my rudder pintels
from it and my cleats and my blocks.. You don't have to paint or varnish
it and it weathers to a beautiful silver sheen. Worms won't even eat it
The only drawback I can see is it's heavy but compared to water or at
8lbs a gallon it's pretty light. It's perfect. Just requires a little
work. No Money except a little for some lead to sink a center board!
Doug
Giuliano Girometta wrote:
probably in one slow winter. And I don't now about other places but
along the east coast and Appalatian mountain reagion and the northern
midwest there is all the Locust for free that anyone wants. You cut it
yourself ,dry it and build out of it. It will not rot, it's strong and
beautiful. You don't even have to have screws you can make fasteners
from it. You don't have to buy hardware I even made my rudder pintels
from it and my cleats and my blocks.. You don't have to paint or varnish
it and it weathers to a beautiful silver sheen. Worms won't even eat it
The only drawback I can see is it's heavy but compared to water or at
8lbs a gallon it's pretty light. It's perfect. Just requires a little
work. No Money except a little for some lead to sink a center board!
Doug
Giuliano Girometta wrote:
>
> Learning to weld in order to build an inexpensive boat is a good idea,
> but that may bring us to future posts about using steel wire instead
> of welding rods. (LOL)
>
> Giuliano
>
> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Mike <Mikieq@...
> <mailto:Mikieq%40erols.com>> wrote:
>
> From: Mike <Mikieq@...<mailto:Mikieq%40erols.com>>
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:28 PM
>
> This whole discussion reminds me of a letter that was posted in the
> old "Small Boat Journal" where a fellow claimed to have used
> fiberglass insulation batts and polyester resin to build his boat
> with. My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
> you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning joinery,
> although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
> let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
> Epoxy and fiberglass tape have brought boatbuilding to the adverage
> guy. The down side is rubber gloves and a little care, I don't think
> that is too bad of a trade off.
> Mike
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, c o'donnell <dadadata@.. .> wrote:
> >
> > Polyester isn't glue. It's plastic. I rehabbed a Birdwatcher that
> was
> > "polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
> >
> > > One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a
> Yellow
> > > Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
> > > pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it.
> All
> > > came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't
> forget!
> > >
> > > PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this
> epoxy.
> > >http://www.jgreercom/
> > >
> > > Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
> > >
> > > -mark
> > > On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy
> but
> > > merely
> > > > commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and
> > > PL. At
> > > > this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a
> > > "throwaway"
> > > > I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
> > > >
> > > > Bryant
> > > >
> > > >> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax,
> > > delivered.
> > > >> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ ---
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > === craig o'donnell
> > dadadata@...
> > Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Well I've use a lot of both! Each one has it's place. If you have long weld runs a wirefeed is very nice. But with a wirefeed with hard wire you don't get the hot starts like you do with stick welding. So your stops and starts could leak. I've had very good luck with flux core wire when it comes to welding steel tanks.
Blessings all
Krissie
Blessings all
Krissie
--- On Sun, 7/6/08, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote:
From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:40 PM
Learning to weld in order to build an inexpensive boat is a good idea, but that may bring us to future posts about using steel wire instead of welding rods. (LOL)
Giuliano
-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Learning to weld in order to build an inexpensive boat is a good idea, but that may bring us to future posts about using steel wire instead of welding rods. (LOL)
Giuliano
Giuliano
--- On Sun, 7/6/08, Mike <Mikieq@...> wrote:
From: Mike <Mikieq@...>
Subject: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:28 PM
This whole discussion reminds me of a letter that was posted in the
old "Small Boat Journal" where a fellow claimed to have used
fiberglass insulation batts and polyester resin to build his boat
with. My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning joinery,
although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
Epoxy and fiberglass tape have brought boatbuilding to the adverage
guy. The down side is rubber gloves and a little care, I don't think
that is too bad of a trade off.
Mike
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, c o'donnell <dadadata@.. .> wrote:
>
> Polyester isn't glue. It's plastic. I rehabbed a Birdwatcher that
was
> "polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
>
> On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
>
> > One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a
Yellow
> > Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
> > pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it.
All
> > came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't
forget!
> >
> > PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this
epoxy.
> >http://www.jgreercom/
> >
> > Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
> >
> > -mark
> > On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
> >
> > > Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy
but
> > merely
> > > commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and
> > PL. At
> > > this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a
> > "throwaway"
> > > I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
> > >
> > > Bryant
> > >
> > >> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax,
> > delivered.
> > >> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------ ---
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> === craig o'donnell
> dadadata@...
> Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You want a hard surfaced, very tacky paint to "paint down" glass
cloth. It's analogous to using paint on canvas in the old days but
we're not using oil-based paint. After that you can paint over it as
much as you like with whatever you like.
I had very good success experimenting with hatch covers and such.
Obviously for a cartop or trailer boat, not for something that's
going to sit in the water on a mooring. But it does work.
cloth. It's analogous to using paint on canvas in the old days but
we're not using oil-based paint. After that you can paint over it as
much as you like with whatever you like.
I had very good success experimenting with hatch covers and such.
Obviously for a cartop or trailer boat, not for something that's
going to sit in the water on a mooring. But it does work.
On Jul 6, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Gene Tehansky wrote:
> A note on the garage floor paint. I heard somewhere, possibly even
> here, that the floor paints are designed to be porous so that water
> pressure will now lift them. That would be water pressure like one
> would find under a basement floor. I don't know how true this is but
> I'd need to look into this to determine if I needed a sealer coat of
> some other paint. Also, the epoxy paints (I only know about other
> than floor paints) do tend to chalk heavily. Could this be from a
> lack of UV protection, I don't know. I used some spray on epoxy
> paint on a porch rail and it had a white powder on it as it aged. I
> repainted with Rustoleum and the problem did not recur.
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene T.
>
> On 6 Jul, 2008, at 11:41 AM, c o'donnell wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jul 6, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Mike wrote:
> >
> > > My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
> > > you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning
> > joinery,
> > > although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
> > > let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
> >
> > Ahhh, but "instant boats" like micros and birdwatchers are designed
> > for less than perfect wood supplies and simple (probably easier than
> > building a shed, where things got to be plumb) carpentering skills.
> >
> > That's the point of this list. And even w/an instant type boat no
> one
> > need use poly and glass if they don't want to. Paint is fine.
> >
> > (I will add that 4 or 6 oz glass can be "painted into" surfaces with
> > either latex-enamel fortified exterior paint or epoxy based garage
> > floor paint too. So that's a "somewhere in the middle" solution).
> >
> > === craig o'donnell
> >dadadata@...
> > Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
=== craig o'donnell
dadadata@...
Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A note on the garage floor paint. I heard somewhere, possibly even
here, that the floor paints are designed to be porous so that water
pressure will now lift them. That would be water pressure like one
would find under a basement floor. I don't know how true this is but
I'd need to look into this to determine if I needed a sealer coat of
some other paint. Also, the epoxy paints (I only know about other
than floor paints) do tend to chalk heavily. Could this be from a
lack of UV protection, I don't know. I used some spray on epoxy
paint on a porch rail and it had a white powder on it as it aged. I
repainted with Rustoleum and the problem did not recur.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
here, that the floor paints are designed to be porous so that water
pressure will now lift them. That would be water pressure like one
would find under a basement floor. I don't know how true this is but
I'd need to look into this to determine if I needed a sealer coat of
some other paint. Also, the epoxy paints (I only know about other
than floor paints) do tend to chalk heavily. Could this be from a
lack of UV protection, I don't know. I used some spray on epoxy
paint on a porch rail and it had a white powder on it as it aged. I
repainted with Rustoleum and the problem did not recur.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 6 Jul, 2008, at 11:41 AM, c o'donnell wrote:
>
> On Jul 6, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Mike wrote:
>
> > My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
> > you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning
> joinery,
> > although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
> > let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
>
> Ahhh, but "instant boats" like micros and birdwatchers are designed
> for less than perfect wood supplies and simple (probably easier than
> building a shed, where things got to be plumb) carpentering skills.
>
> That's the point of this list. And even w/an instant type boat no one
> need use poly and glass if they don't want to. Paint is fine.
>
> (I will add that 4 or 6 oz glass can be "painted into" surfaces with
> either latex-enamel fortified exterior paint or epoxy based garage
> floor paint too. So that's a "somewhere in the middle" solution).
>
> === craig o'donnell
>dadadata@...
> Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Jul 6, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Mike wrote:
for less than perfect wood supplies and simple (probably easier than
building a shed, where things got to be plumb) carpentering skills.
That's the point of this list. And even w/an instant type boat no one
need use poly and glass if they don't want to. Paint is fine.
(I will add that 4 or 6 oz glass can be "painted into" surfaces with
either latex-enamel fortified exterior paint or epoxy based garage
floor paint too. So that's a "somewhere in the middle" solution).
=== craig o'donnell
dadadata@...
Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. IfAhhh, but "instant boats" like micros and birdwatchers are designed
> you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning joinery,
> although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
> let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
for less than perfect wood supplies and simple (probably easier than
building a shed, where things got to be plumb) carpentering skills.
That's the point of this list. And even w/an instant type boat no one
need use poly and glass if they don't want to. Paint is fine.
(I will add that 4 or 6 oz glass can be "painted into" surfaces with
either latex-enamel fortified exterior paint or epoxy based garage
floor paint too. So that's a "somewhere in the middle" solution).
=== craig o'donnell
dadadata@...
Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This whole discussion reminds me of a letter that was posted in the
old "Small Boat Journal" where a fellow claimed to have used
fiberglass insulation batts and polyester resin to build his boat
with. My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning joinery,
although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
Epoxy and fiberglass tape have brought boatbuilding to the adverage
guy. The down side is rubber gloves and a little care, I don't think
that is too bad of a trade off.
Mike
old "Small Boat Journal" where a fellow claimed to have used
fiberglass insulation batts and polyester resin to build his boat
with. My experiance has been;if you want cheap, learn how to weld. If
you can't stand toxic chemicals, spend 10- 20 years learning joinery,
although I don't know where you will find appropriate lumber from,
let alone pay for the correct fastenings.
Epoxy and fiberglass tape have brought boatbuilding to the adverage
guy. The down side is rubber gloves and a little care, I don't think
that is too bad of a trade off.
Mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, c o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:
>
> Polyester isn't glue. It's plastic. I rehabbed a Birdwatcher that
was
> "polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
>
> On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
>
> > One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a
Yellow
> > Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
> > pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it.
All
> > came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't
forget!
> >
> > PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this
epoxy.
> >http://www.jgreer.com/
> >
> > Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
> >
> > -mark
> > On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
> >
> > > Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy
but
> > merely
> > > commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and
> > PL. At
> > > this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a
> > "throwaway"
> > > I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
> > >
> > > Bryant
> > >
> > >> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax,
> > delivered.
> > >> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> === craig o'donnell
> dadadata@...
> Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> PL premium cannot be used for filleting orI think you can eliminate this problem by covering it while
> skim coating because it forms bubbles in its
> open face as it cures.
it cures so the open face is no longer exposed to the air.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
> Stitch and glue is not fast, its just very easyAgreed.
> for an inexperienced builder to use.
It also eliminates chine logs where most rot sets in first
in a wooden boat, and it eliminates the need for other
fastener which means they cannot corrode or work loose.
Personally I use stitch and glue because even though it is
slower it produces better quality boats -- for the way many
people use (and abuse) their boats these days.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
I haven't tried PL masonry cement, but PL premium cannot be used for
filleting or skim coating because it forms bubbles in its open face
as it cures. It's great stuff for gluing two pieces together, though.
filleting or skim coating because it forms bubbles in its open face
as it cures. It's great stuff for gluing two pieces together, though.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
>
> It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would
not be
> building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy
and
> glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and
lapstrake
> planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it
with
> care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate
what
> it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
>
> Mungo Jerry wrote:
>
> > Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the
joy out
> > of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which
is
> > why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
> >
> > The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29.
I'm
> > building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass
or pl
> > and tape the seams just for watertightness.
> >
> > So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL
masonary
> > and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
> > know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
> > discussed?
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I would argue one point here. Using plywood as the hull planking, I
can build way faster using either instant boat techniques (Teal, EP,
June Bug) or frame and plywood covering than if I use stitch and glue.
Stitch and glue is not fast, its just very easy for an inexperienced
builder to use.
HJ
Chris Crandall wrote:
can build way faster using either instant boat techniques (Teal, EP,
June Bug) or frame and plywood covering than if I use stitch and glue.
Stitch and glue is not fast, its just very easy for an inexperienced
builder to use.
HJ
Chris Crandall wrote:
> Posted by: "Clyde Wisner"clydewis@...clydewis
>
>> It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not be
>> building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
>> glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
>> planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
>> care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
>> it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
>>
>
> I have used PL Premium, and I have used drywall tape, and I have
> regretted it both times, as compared to epoxy and fiberglass.
>
> I built a small dory using the drywall mesh tape, and it performed
> poorly, requiring more resin than fiberglass tape (more costly, more
> bulky, more time, more expense). If you count the labor time to work it,
> over and above the labor time for epoxy with fillers, (and I paid myself
> the pre-raised minimum wage), it's still cheaper to go with the
> initially "more expensive" epoxy and tape.
>
> There's a reason that these alternative haven't really caught on. They
> don't work as well or as easily, the infrastructure of materials are not
> available, and they are often uglier.
>
> Epoxy isn't a miracle, and I don't doubt that some people experience a
> spiritual lift from doing things the old, labor-intensive and
> high-skills-required way. Sure, it's all very nice. And I agree that
> it's a better experience to hike up a mountain than it is to drive up
> that same mountain.
>
> But, for anyone who's ever struggled up a mountain on foot, only to meet
> people who took the back road or the chair lift--you both get the same
> view. The only reason to build the old-fashioned way is because you
> prefer (or even fetishize) the journey. But people have different
> values, and the denigration of other people's values is, well, so Jerry
> Falwell.
>
> -Chris
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by: "Clyde Wisner"clydewis@...clydewis
regretted it both times, as compared to epoxy and fiberglass.
I built a small dory using the drywall mesh tape, and it performed
poorly, requiring more resin than fiberglass tape (more costly, more
bulky, more time, more expense). If you count the labor time to work it,
over and above the labor time for epoxy with fillers, (and I paid myself
the pre-raised minimum wage), it's still cheaper to go with the
initially "more expensive" epoxy and tape.
There's a reason that these alternative haven't really caught on. They
don't work as well or as easily, the infrastructure of materials are not
available, and they are often uglier.
Epoxy isn't a miracle, and I don't doubt that some people experience a
spiritual lift from doing things the old, labor-intensive and
high-skills-required way. Sure, it's all very nice. And I agree that
it's a better experience to hike up a mountain than it is to drive up
that same mountain.
But, for anyone who's ever struggled up a mountain on foot, only to meet
people who took the back road or the chair lift--you both get the same
view. The only reason to build the old-fashioned way is because you
prefer (or even fetishize) the journey. But people have different
values, and the denigration of other people's values is, well, so Jerry
Falwell.
-Chris
> It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not beI have used PL Premium, and I have used drywall tape, and I have
> building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
> glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
> planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
> care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
> it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
regretted it both times, as compared to epoxy and fiberglass.
I built a small dory using the drywall mesh tape, and it performed
poorly, requiring more resin than fiberglass tape (more costly, more
bulky, more time, more expense). If you count the labor time to work it,
over and above the labor time for epoxy with fillers, (and I paid myself
the pre-raised minimum wage), it's still cheaper to go with the
initially "more expensive" epoxy and tape.
There's a reason that these alternative haven't really caught on. They
don't work as well or as easily, the infrastructure of materials are not
available, and they are often uglier.
Epoxy isn't a miracle, and I don't doubt that some people experience a
spiritual lift from doing things the old, labor-intensive and
high-skills-required way. Sure, it's all very nice. And I agree that
it's a better experience to hike up a mountain than it is to drive up
that same mountain.
But, for anyone who's ever struggled up a mountain on foot, only to meet
people who took the back road or the chair lift--you both get the same
view. The only reason to build the old-fashioned way is because you
prefer (or even fetishize) the journey. But people have different
values, and the denigration of other people's values is, well, so Jerry
Falwell.
-Chris
It seems we go thru this every year or so. IMHO, most of us would not be
building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
Mungo Jerry wrote:
building boats that float without ugly, nasty, old meraculus epoxy and
glass. Before this we built very carefully with caevel and lapstrake
planking, and most of us didn't build at all. One must treat it with
care and "mess" respect, but I don't think we should under estimate what
it has made possible for most of us to do, Clyde
Mungo Jerry wrote:
> Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the joy out[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
> why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
>
> The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
> building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
> and tape the seams just for watertightness.
>
> So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
> and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
> know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
> discussed?
>
>
--- On Thu, 7/3/08, Mungo Jerry <mungojerryus@...> wrote:
From: Mungo Jerry <mungojerryus@...>
Subject: [bolger] Re: Of glue and tape
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 12:56 PM
Hi, here are just my 2c about sheet rock tape.
When I noticed the tape at the store, I immediatly thinked to try to substitute such tape for fiberglass tape. So I purchased a roll and made some test samples.
The tape is made with very short fibers that does not give any strength.
The failure point of joints glued with just plain epoxy or the ones reinforced with sheet rock tape were the same and in some cases the tape reinforced joints failed before the non taped due to air bubbles trapped within the tape that does not saturate with epoxy.
Just try to tear by hand one piece of real fiberglass tape and one piece of sheet rock tape. The real stuff will cut your hands but does not tear while the sheet rock tape tear almost like a light stripe of cardboard.
Giuliano
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ive got to agree with you there about epoxy taking some of the joy out
of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
and tape the seams just for watertightness.
So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
discussed?
of boatbuilding. Its nasty, toxic, sticky, appalling stuff, which is
why I think Im casting about for alternatives.
The boat Im building is a 24' sharpie, a kind of cut down AS29. I'm
building mostly screw and glue, but was intending to either glass or pl
and tape the seams just for watertightness.
So how about it? How much am I likely to regret using say PL masonary
and tape as opposed to epoxy and glass tape? And does anyone have,
know of, or have the yen to try any OTHER alternatives we've not
discussed?
At one time I had a japanese built boat designated a Y-21 she was
plywood over good frameing, Resorsinol glue throughout construction. She
would have been a good boat without any glass at all and only paint
They glassed her for protection using polyester. The boat lasted 30
years. I had sold her and she was allowed to set in a yard several years
all closed up and rotted away from the inside. I believe polyester is Ok
used like this. It does allow water to get through but I don't think
enough to cause rot. I dislike using epoxy enough that it takes some of
the pleasure out of boat building for me. I try to use it as a glue
only in places where I don't get as good a fit as I would like. Having
said this, I think epoxy is the best solution over all as a glue and as
a protective layer on th outer hull. Even cost wise. That may well
change as oil prices keep rising.
My dislike of plastic covered boats is one reason I am drawn to
building out of locust wood. I have talked about this on several lists.
It requires no glass coatings to be tough it will almost never rot and
the trees are everywhere. If a guy is willing to cut his own timber
have it sawn and then dry it he has a perfect material to build boats
from. It takes a guy though, who is willing to take on a second hobby
and that is one of part time lumberjack. Now in my opinion, cutting
down trees is one of the most satisfying endevers I know of and there is
enough danger involved to satisfy a lust for the danger of even mountain
climbing. :-) Give a boy a saw and if you don't watch him he will cut
down one of your trees. Having said all this I must admit I have never
used sheet rock tape.
Doug
c o'donnell wrote:
plywood over good frameing, Resorsinol glue throughout construction. She
would have been a good boat without any glass at all and only paint
They glassed her for protection using polyester. The boat lasted 30
years. I had sold her and she was allowed to set in a yard several years
all closed up and rotted away from the inside. I believe polyester is Ok
used like this. It does allow water to get through but I don't think
enough to cause rot. I dislike using epoxy enough that it takes some of
the pleasure out of boat building for me. I try to use it as a glue
only in places where I don't get as good a fit as I would like. Having
said this, I think epoxy is the best solution over all as a glue and as
a protective layer on th outer hull. Even cost wise. That may well
change as oil prices keep rising.
My dislike of plastic covered boats is one reason I am drawn to
building out of locust wood. I have talked about this on several lists.
It requires no glass coatings to be tough it will almost never rot and
the trees are everywhere. If a guy is willing to cut his own timber
have it sawn and then dry it he has a perfect material to build boats
from. It takes a guy though, who is willing to take on a second hobby
and that is one of part time lumberjack. Now in my opinion, cutting
down trees is one of the most satisfying endevers I know of and there is
enough danger involved to satisfy a lust for the danger of even mountain
climbing. :-) Give a boy a saw and if you don't watch him he will cut
down one of your trees. Having said all this I must admit I have never
used sheet rock tape.
Doug
c o'donnell wrote:
>
> Polyester isn't glue. It's plastic. I rehabbed a Birdwatcher that was
> "polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
>
> On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
>
> > One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a Yellow
> > Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
> > pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it. All
> > came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't forget!
> >
> > PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this epoxy.
> >http://www.jgreer.com/<http://www.jgreer.com/>
> >
> > Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
> >
> > -mark
> > On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
> >
> > > Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy but
> > merely
> > > commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and
> > PL. At
> > > this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a
> > "throwaway"
> > > I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
> > >
> > > Bryant
> > >
> > >> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax,
> > delivered.
> > >> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> === craig o'donnell
>dadadata@...<mailto:dadadata%40friend.ly.net>
> Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Polyester isn't glue. It's plastic. I rehabbed a Birdwatcher that was
"polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
"polyestered" everywhere. Using lots of nails, some PL and epoxy.
On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
> One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a Yellow
> Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
> pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it. All
> came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't forget!
>
> PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this epoxy.
>http://www.jgreer.com/
>
> Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
>
> -mark
> On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
>
> > Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy but
> merely
> > commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and
> PL. At
> > this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a
> "throwaway"
> > I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
> >
> > Bryant
> >
> >> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax,
> delivered.
> >> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------
> >
>
>
>
=== craig o'donnell
dadadata@...
Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One of my most ill-inspired moments was trying to assemble a Yellow
Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it. All
came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't forget!
PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this epoxy.
http://www.jgreer.com/
Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
-mark
Leaf with drywall tape and unthickend polyester resin -and on a
pretty hot day to boot. The tape wasn't dense enough to hold it. All
came to a hideous, runny mess. So long ago but I still can't forget!
PL is better, but retail PL isn't very much cheaper than this epoxy.
http://www.jgreer.com/
Neither was the new stuff featured in Duckworks, IIRC.
-mark
On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Bryant Owen wrote:
> Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy but merely
> commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and PL. At
> this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a "throwaway"
> I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
>
> Bryant
>
>> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax, delivered.
>> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------
>
Bruce et al. I was not disparaging fibreglas tape and epoxy but merely
commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and PL. At
this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a "throwaway"
I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
Bryant
commenting that you can build an OK boat with drywall tape and PL. At
this point in my building career if it's anything beyond a "throwaway"
I'd definitely use tape/epoxy.
Bryant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > People continue to make boats with drywall tape/pl seams. Seems to
> > work well with small boats and thin ply. What works, works.
>
> I agree, what works, works.
>
> Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax, delivered.
> A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
>
The best is fiberglass tape and epoxy, whether you use it or not ( and I
really dislike it) depends on the size of the boat cost of materials and
time to build. Somewhere in the $2-300 and 40 hrs construction time
range I shift to best materials and techniques.
HJ
Mungo Jerry wrote:
really dislike it) depends on the size of the boat cost of materials and
time to build. Somewhere in the $2-300 and 40 hrs construction time
range I shift to best materials and techniques.
HJ
Mungo Jerry wrote:
> In the midst of a constructing frenzy on my sharpie, I was curious if
> qanyone had done any research on some of the new tape/glue combos Im
> seeing on duckworksmagazine and others. Has anyone tried the use of
> drywalltape/pl in lieu of epoxy? I remember vaguely when I started
> this project sometime in the middle of the third Punic war that someone
> did a glue comparison with tests of epoxy, gorilla glue, pl, etc using
> drywall tapes and fibreglass tapes, but I cant seem to find the link.
>
> M
>
>
>
> People continue to make boats with drywall tape/pl seams. Seems toI agree, what works, works.
> work well with small boats and thin ply. What works, works.
Still, my eBay epoxy cost me only $48.50/gallon after tax, delivered.
A heck of a bargain for an excellent glue.
People continue to make boats with drywall tape/pl seams. Seems to
work well with small boats and thin ply. What works, works.
Bryant
work well with small boats and thin ply. What works, works.
Bryant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mungo Jerry" <mungojerryus@...> wrote:
>
> In the midst of a constructing frenzy on my sharpie, I was curious if
> qanyone had done any research on some of the new tape/glue combos Im
> seeing on duckworksmagazine and others. Has anyone tried the use of
> drywalltape/pl in lieu of epoxy? I remember vaguely when I started
> this project sometime in the middle of the third Punic war that someone
> did a glue comparison with tests of epoxy, gorilla glue, pl, etc using
> drywall tapes and fibreglass tapes, but I cant seem to find the link.
>
> M
>
In the midst of a constructing frenzy on my sharpie, I was curious if
qanyone had done any research on some of the new tape/glue combos Im
seeing on duckworksmagazine and others. Has anyone tried the use of
drywalltape/pl in lieu of epoxy? I remember vaguely when I started
this project sometime in the middle of the third Punic war that someone
did a glue comparison with tests of epoxy, gorilla glue, pl, etc using
drywall tapes and fibreglass tapes, but I cant seem to find the link.
M
qanyone had done any research on some of the new tape/glue combos Im
seeing on duckworksmagazine and others. Has anyone tried the use of
drywalltape/pl in lieu of epoxy? I remember vaguely when I started
this project sometime in the middle of the third Punic war that someone
did a glue comparison with tests of epoxy, gorilla glue, pl, etc using
drywall tapes and fibreglass tapes, but I cant seem to find the link.
M